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Perpetual Middle East Geopolitical Quagmire Megathread

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Horn Under a Bad Sign

Horn Under a Bad Sign 20834

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3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 


 

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Still, Alwaleed, who once described Trump on Twitter as a “disgrace not only to the GOP but to all America,” kept those early deals in mind. When Trump made fun of him on Twitter two years ago, Alwaleed responded by tweeting, “I bailed you out twice; a 3rd time, maybe?”



 

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Late last year, Kushner made another secretive trip alone to Riyadh. He later described the visit as an effort to “brainstorm” Middle East strategies with Mohammed bin Salman. Not long afterward, the crown prince placed dozens of prominent businessmen and political rivals under house arrest in what was described as an anti-corruption drive. Among them was Alwaleed, the man who once snatched the Plaza Hotel and yacht from Kushner's father-in-law.



https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-10-17/trump-and-kushner-put-saudi-arabia-s-money-ahead-of-khashoggi
 

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bernorange

bernorange 8385

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Fozzz said:

Wonder what the Saudis would actually need to do in order for us to actually go after our Arabian masters. ...

I would expect the USA to give them the Libya treatment if they renege on the deal they made with Nixon.  When they (and by extension, the rest of OPEC) stop trading their oil in dollars, they will lose our protection.

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happyfunball

happyfunball 481

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Posted

Word on da street is that Softbanks Vision 2 fund will fall apart as a result of the this event. While the US cedes it’s global role, the world can still do what is right despite us. 

Softbanks first vision fund was $100b with $400 coming from KSA

Mckinsey has now been implicated too

 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13706

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The official story is

  • we don't know what the "rogue" team was trying to accomplish.  Interrogation, kidnapping, murder, etc.
  • a fight broke out
  • Khoshoggi ends up dead

Unexplained facts:

  • a large team of people arrived hours before Khoshoggi arrived including a forensic specialist, they had a bone saw, and there was a body double.
  • the body double is seen leaving the embassy in Khoshoggi's clothes except for the shoes.  Shoe size will always trip you up.   He drives to a very large mosque, where he goes into the bathroom and emerges wearing his original clothes from earlier in the day.
  • Still uncertain where the body is.  Vat of acid?

At the of the day, I don't know what we can accomplish here by attempting to place the blame on the crown prince.  His dad is almost certainty not going to remove the crown prince.  There might be some internal punishment that we don't see.  His monthly allowance goes from $50m to 49m.   We're not going to end our alliance with KSA.   Pompeo will need to convince KSA leadership to accept the blame even if they want to continue to say it was unknown to them.  Accept the blame, take some type of international punishment, say that they will embrace more adversarial journalism, and pay off the fiancee.  

The Crown Prince isn't going to jail over this even if someone produces a tape of him ordering the murder.  

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Hornius Emeritus

Hornius Emeritus 12779

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On 10/17/2018 at 10:44 PM, Shmitty said:

I really wish our nation had nothing to do with Saudi Arabia, economically, diplomatically, etc.   It would be so nice to have a president who could tell them, to "fuck off we will no longer buy your oil."      But that would just be mental masturbation.  

 

Where have you gone, John Anderson?


05anderson1-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&

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Hornius Emeritus

Hornius Emeritus 12779

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Saudis had a man put on Kashoggi's actual clothes, the ones he wore into the embassy, and walk out of the embassy to make it appear on video  like Kashoggi had left.

Some accidental killing, eh?

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2018/10/22/saudi-operative-jamal-khashoggi-clothes-pkg.cnn

Edited by Hornius Emeritus
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Longhorn_Fan68

Longhorn_Fan68 34079

Posted
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5 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

Saudis had a man put on Kashoggi's actual clothes, the ones he wore into the embassy, and walk out of the embassy to make it appear on video  like Kashoggi had left.

Some accidental killing, eh?

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2018/10/22/saudi-operative-jamal-khashoggi-clothes-pkg.cnn

just coming here to see if that was posted. this shit gets more amazing every day.

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yoladu

yoladu 4187

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Wasn't Trump the first person to use the term "rogue" in speculation of who the killers might have been? 

i wonder where he got that idea from?

As Fareed Zakaria said: President Trump is behaving like the Saudi's PR agency

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maninblack

maninblack 7975

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Posted

Written 3 years ago. Of course the mainstream media and most everyone else didn't mention it or care until one of their own was killed by SA and it became a convenient talking point. 

The U.S. Should Stop Supporting the War in Yemen

Spoiler

Yemen is the latest U.S. foreign policy disaster. For all the wrong reasons, the United States has been instrumental in enabling Saudi Arabia's ruthless war of choice in Yemen.

 

After almost a year of bombings, Yemen is a humanitarian catastrophe. Over 6,000 Yemenis have been killed—half of them civilians. According to a recent United Nations report, the Saudi-led coalition has "conducted airstrikes targeting civilians and civilian objects," including refugee camps, hospitals, weddings, and mosques. Saudi bombing has reduced large tracts of several cities to rubble. Some of the attacks, according to the U.N. panel, could amount tocrimes against humanity.

As of this month, over two million people in Yemen are internally displaced, millions lack access to potable water, and thanks to a U.S.-supported Saudi blockade on imports, more than 14 million Yemenis are at risk of starvation.

 

Throughout, the U.S. has quietly but dutifully lent the Saudis weapons, logistics assistance, and diplomatic cover. It's time to stop.

The civil conflict in Yemen has its roots in the overthrow in 2011 of long-time U.S.-Saudi ally Ali Abdullah Saleh. In the midst of the unrest, Saudi Arabia and the U.S. supported a political transition to a government headed by President Abed-Rabbo Mansour Hadi, in which he was the only candidate on the ballot. Yemen's Shiite Houthi rebels waged an insurgency against the Hadi government and captured the capital city Sanaa in 2014. 

The civil war then morphed into an intractable proxy war when, in March of last year, Saudi Arabia decided to wage a vicious bombing campaign under the pretext of destroying the Houthi rebellion and reinstating Hadi's beleaguered government. Riyadh views the Houthis as a proxy of Iran, and after the peaceful diplomatic settlement between the U.S. and Iran over the latter's nuclear program, U.S. officials have apparently felt obliged to reassure Saudi Arabia by supporting its war in Yemen. 

The problem is that Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen compromises both U.S. interests and its moral standing. Our interests are harmed because undermining the Houthis and contributing to the power vacuum in the country has benefitted the position of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), which happens to share Saudi distaste for the Houthis.

The Saudis succeed in garnering U.S. support in part by characterizing the war as a fight against terrorism. But the Saudis and al-Qaeda are actually in an awkward alliance in this fight, making U.S. help even more misguided.

As for our moral standing, by supporting Saudi Arabia's military action, we are a party to serious war crimes and are indirectly at fault for the devastating humanitarian crisis the people of Yemen now face. 

The Saudi intervention clearly violates the just war tenet of jus ad bellum. That tenet dictates that nations not only have a just cause for going to war but also resort to military force only after all other options have been exhausted. Despite Saudi claims to the contrary, the intervention is clearly not a case of self-defense. The notion that Yemen, the poorest country in the Middle East (kept afloat primarily by Saudi funds), represents a military threat to Saudi Arabia is absurd. And to argue Saudi bombs are justified to prevent future terrorist attacks is to argue for preventive war, which violates just war theory and the UN Charter.

The Saudis insist that their actions are legal because the legitimate Yemeni government invited military intervention. But the Hadi government hardly deserves the label legitimate. Hadi was elevated to the presidency after serving in Saleh's autocratic regime as vice president. Once president, Hadi used his position to consolidate power against the Houthis and Saleh loyalists all whilemisappropriating billions of dollars. A better description would be to call the Hadi government a tool of Saudi Arabia, since Saudi Arabia not only brokered the deal that allowed him to replace Saleh but also enabled him to return to Yemen after the Houthis drove him from the country. Arguing that the Saudis are responding to a call for help is essentially to argue that the Saudis asked themselves to intervene in Yemen.

So, if Saudi Arabia's argument for intervention is weak, what's the U.S.'s excuse? Any claim that this is a part and parcel of the war on terror is dubious, considering the bombing of Yemen is, if anything, bolstering Islamic extremists. Furthermore, Saudi Arabia itself is a major exporter of the kind of jihadist ideology that drives groups like al-Qaeda and the Islamic State. 

Even if it were about countering terrorist groups, if the threat to Saudi Arabia from Yemen is remote, the threat to the United States is certainly too small to justify violating the rules of war, international moral norms, and common decency.

Beyond placating overexcited Saudi fears of a U.S. strategic tilt towards Iran, there simply is no moral, legal, or strategic justification for what the U.S. is doing in Yemen.

 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, maninblack said:

Written 3 years ago. Of course the mainstream media and most everyone else didn't mention it or care until one of their own was killed by SA and it became a convenient talking point. 

The U.S. Should Stop Supporting the War in Yemen

  Hide contents

Yemen is the latest U.S. foreign policy disaster. For all the wrong reasons, the United States has been instrumental in enabling Saudi Arabia's ruthless war of choice in Yemen.

 

After almost a year of bombings, Yemen is a humanitarian catastrophe. Over 6,000 Yemenis have been killed—half of them civilians. According to a recent United Nations report, the Saudi-led coalition has "conducted airstrikes targeting civilians and civilian objects," including refugee camps, hospitals, weddings, and mosques. Saudi bombing has reduced large tracts of several cities to rubble. Some of the attacks, according to the U.N. panel, could amount tocrimes against humanity.

As of this month, over two million people in Yemen are internally displaced, millions lack access to potable water, and thanks to a U.S.-supported Saudi blockade on imports, more than 14 million Yemenis are at risk of starvation.

 

Throughout, the U.S. has quietly but dutifully lent the Saudis weapons, logistics assistance, and diplomatic cover. It's time to stop.

The civil conflict in Yemen has its roots in the overthrow in 2011 of long-time U.S.-Saudi ally Ali Abdullah Saleh. In the midst of the unrest, Saudi Arabia and the U.S. supported a political transition to a government headed by President Abed-Rabbo Mansour Hadi, in which he was the only candidate on the ballot. Yemen's Shiite Houthi rebels waged an insurgency against the Hadi government and captured the capital city Sanaa in 2014. 

The civil war then morphed into an intractable proxy war when, in March of last year, Saudi Arabia decided to wage a vicious bombing campaign under the pretext of destroying the Houthi rebellion and reinstating Hadi's beleaguered government. Riyadh views the Houthis as a proxy of Iran, and after the peaceful diplomatic settlement between the U.S. and Iran over the latter's nuclear program, U.S. officials have apparently felt obliged to reassure Saudi Arabia by supporting its war in Yemen. 

The problem is that Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen compromises both U.S. interests and its moral standing. Our interests are harmed because undermining the Houthis and contributing to the power vacuum in the country has benefitted the position of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), which happens to share Saudi distaste for the Houthis.

The Saudis succeed in garnering U.S. support in part by characterizing the war as a fight against terrorism. But the Saudis and al-Qaeda are actually in an awkward alliance in this fight, making U.S. help even more misguided.

As for our moral standing, by supporting Saudi Arabia's military action, we are a party to serious war crimes and are indirectly at fault for the devastating humanitarian crisis the people of Yemen now face. 

The Saudi intervention clearly violates the just war tenet of jus ad bellum. That tenet dictates that nations not only have a just cause for going to war but also resort to military force only after all other options have been exhausted. Despite Saudi claims to the contrary, the intervention is clearly not a case of self-defense. The notion that Yemen, the poorest country in the Middle East (kept afloat primarily by Saudi funds), represents a military threat to Saudi Arabia is absurd. And to argue Saudi bombs are justified to prevent future terrorist attacks is to argue for preventive war, which violates just war theory and the UN Charter.

The Saudis insist that their actions are legal because the legitimate Yemeni government invited military intervention. But the Hadi government hardly deserves the label legitimate. Hadi was elevated to the presidency after serving in Saleh's autocratic regime as vice president. Once president, Hadi used his position to consolidate power against the Houthis and Saleh loyalists all whilemisappropriating billions of dollars. A better description would be to call the Hadi government a tool of Saudi Arabia, since Saudi Arabia not only brokered the deal that allowed him to replace Saleh but also enabled him to return to Yemen after the Houthis drove him from the country. Arguing that the Saudis are responding to a call for help is essentially to argue that the Saudis asked themselves to intervene in Yemen.

So, if Saudi Arabia's argument for intervention is weak, what's the U.S.'s excuse? Any claim that this is a part and parcel of the war on terror is dubious, considering the bombing of Yemen is, if anything, bolstering Islamic extremists. Furthermore, Saudi Arabia itself is a major exporter of the kind of jihadist ideology that drives groups like al-Qaeda and the Islamic State. 

Even if it were about countering terrorist groups, if the threat to Saudi Arabia from Yemen is remote, the threat to the United States is certainly too small to justify violating the rules of war, international moral norms, and common decency.

Beyond placating overexcited Saudi fears of a U.S. strategic tilt towards Iran, there simply is no moral, legal, or strategic justification for what the U.S. is doing in Yemen.

 

For years, your girl Pocahontas has been screaming about our role in Yemen. 

 

 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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David Dennison

David Dennison 19440

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, maninblack said:

Holy shit that's your thing? She's deeply concerned...lolz

The left doesn't give a shit

Well, she voted against a motion to table S.J. Res. 54. That was a joint resolution that would have directed the removal of the U.S. military from hostilities in Yemen that haven't been authorized by Congress.

That's an actual vote.

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maninblack

maninblack 7975

Posted
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24 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Well, she voted against a motion to table S.J. Res. 54. That was a joint resolution that would have directed the removal of the U.S. military from hostilities in Yemen that haven't been authorized by Congress.

That's an actual vote.

Guess who voted with her in March of 2018 on SJ Res 154...the declining Rand Paul.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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10 minutes ago, maninblack said:

Guess who voted with her in March of 2018 on SJ Res 154...the declining Rand Paul.

The difference is I will admit Rand Paul has some good positions.

I have other reasons to disapprove of him holding public office, however, on some issues, we agree. 

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maninblack

maninblack 7975

Posted
Posted (edited)

Your common ground was protecting someone who doesn't give a shit until it's politically expedient. You also think we should blow the fuck out of Syria so excuse the fuck out of me if I don't give a fuck about your new found kindness towards genocide in the name of freedom and Jesus and shit.

Edited by maninblack
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bernorange

bernorange 8385

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Saudi Arabia has demanded that aid agencies operating in Yemen should provide favourable publicity for Riyadh’s role in providing $930m (£725m) of humanitarian aid, an internal UN document reveals.

Saudi military intervention in the three-year civil war is widely regarded as a prime cause of the humanitarian disaster that has seen 10,000 civilians killed, and left millions close to starvation. The kingdom intervened in Yemen to restore a UN-recognised government, and push back Iranian-supported Houthi rebels.

Although many donors seek publicity in return for grants, the extent of the Saudi demands are highly unusual.

The document, entitled Visibility Plan, covers the terms of the 2018 humanitarian budget for Yemen, and shows the extent to which the UN aid agency, Ocha, was put under pressure to accept the PR strings attached to money given both by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. The two countries provided nearly one third of the total UN humanitarian budget for Yemen for this year.

Future grants distributed by Ocha to agencies should be tied to the amount of beneficial publicity given to Saudi Arabia, the documents advises. It also calls for Ocha to seek favourable publicity for the Saudi humanitarian effort in Yemen in newspapers such as the New York Times and the Guardian.

The document also sets out how all agencies receiving Saudi aid must share a summary of their publicity around the funding. ...

More:  https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/oct/30/saudis-demanded-good-publicity-over-yemen-aid-leaked-un-document-shows?CMP=share_btn_tw

I'm sure the Yemenis will be quite comforted to know that the country that is apparently killing them indiscriminately is also donating some money for humanitarian aid (as long they get favorable mentions in the press).  They gonna be all "Damn bro, thanks!  No foul, play on!"

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Chad Fuck

Chad Fuck 18088

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Parliament said:

Hits like that on US soil are pretty rare I think?  Wow if true.

I saw in another recently posted article that they had asked for asylum in the U.S.

The Saudis know they can get away with this in the U.S.  What's Trump going to say?  The lives of two brown girls are worthless to him.

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