Finally: Wheel of Time being made by Amazon and Sony

[Post Oak 20210]

I'll give it a shot but at first glance the cinematography, writing and acting look the same. 

Underwhelming .

I was reminded how little I care about any of the characters.

 

[Radical Larry 28585]

First three episodes are out.

[SpiralOut 1813]

As a huge WoT nerd, fucking christ this show.

The first season was hot garbage from start to finish.  It's like they took the framework of the WoT books and then just did whatever they wanted, but way worse than the books.  Obviously you have to cut shit, the books are huge and have 1800 named characters.  But the show is taking main characters and completely changing them from the books outside of their name.  Skipping major plot points.  Outright breaking the established rules of the WoT universe for no discernable reason.  Just all around stupidity.

After watching these first three episodes, they've done a better job making the show look better instead of being something that should show up on the Sy-Fy channel.  The pacing, acting, and writing is better.  The show is still completely off the rails as far as the books go.  I guess if you want to watch and enjoy this show you need to have never read the books or just accept it's a completely different thing. 

Spoiler

Like, Ishamael is working with the Seanchan now?  Liandran is actually a good person and cares about people? Nynaeve is training with the Warders with swords?  Rand is FUCKING LANFEAR?!  Fucks sake, dude. 

"Um, Elayne, Aviendha, and Min?  Just so you gals know, you're getting sloppy seconds.  Egwene?  Fuck, I forgot about that.  Yeah, that's awkward, but I'm not talking about Egwene.  Oh, no one that matters.  Just the most powerful female Forsaken.  Think her real name is Lanfear.  Stop!  Stop hitting me!  She's fucking hot, ok?!  Dem titties, though!  Moiraine, help!"

 

[atomheartbevo 89652]

14 minutes ago, SpiralOut said:

After watching these first three episodes, they've done a better job making the show look better instead of being something that should show up on the Sy-Fy channel.  The pacing, acting, and writing is better.  The show is still completely off the rails as far as the books go.  I guess if you want to watch and enjoy this show you need to have never read the books or just accept it's a completely different thing. 

They could have taken a note from Apple's Foundation series and course-corrected a bit more in the second season, although that's probably not fair to Foundation since the books jump around a lot time-wise so they had to do some things to make it more understandable to non-readers.

I'm conflicted about WoT. It's very hard to film - I don't know if it's a matter of reducing it to a book per season or should they have done a couple of seasons for at least the first book. I think Rosamund Pike and Daniel Henney were solid casting, and some of the others...meh, but I also know that we will see new characters/settings swapped in.

The costumes/sets/lighting/color grading kind of took me out of the series in the first season.

I think what bugs me is I'm not sure about this season.

[SpiralOut 1813]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I'm conflicted about WoT. It's very hard to film - I don't know if it's a matter of reducing it to a book per season or should they have done a couple of seasons for at least the first book. I think Rosamund Pike and Daniel Henney were solid casting, and some of the others...meh, but I also know that we will see new characters/settings swapped in.

The costumes/sets/lighting/color grading kind of took me out of the series in the first season.

Yeah, they kinda just put the hammer down on the gas in the first season.  While also finding time to ADD stuff that absolutely didn't need to be added.

It would have helped immensely if they'd spent more than one episode in Emond's Field.  Nevermind that what we got in the show looked nothing like Emond's Field, we didn't really get too much set-up.  We didn't get to see how these characters are all really country bumpkins in the grand scheme of things with severely conservative views on things like sex before marriage, outsiders, etc.  Moiraine and Lan are just there and then the next the you know, Trolloc attack and we're off down the road.

And yes, the cinematography was awful.  It looked more like a soap opera or some shit.  They've fixed a bunch of that though, thankfully.  

[TexMex Horn 68]

I thought I was done after season 1, but I couldn't help myself.  The good news is that I've forgotten a lot of the book material. Cause I sure don't remember Rand getting a job in a mental hospital. That being said, I thought the "look" was better. But, what's the deal w/ Moraine & Lan? Thought that played out poorly

[atomheartbevo 89652]

4 hours ago, SpiralOut said:

Yeah, they kinda just put the hammer down on the gas in the first season.

Yeah, noticed that, and I bet it's them deciding they had to get the non-book readers hooked in really early on.

With Foundation, they were allowed to go at a much slower pace.

Oh well, they at least seem to be course-correcting.

[Stilicho 1397]

I think the pacing and the writing are much better this season than last. 

That being said…

Spoiler

I assume the Rand / Logain meeting will somehow replace the whole bonded Forsaken bit from the books so Rand can “learn” how to channel. The mental hospital bit is still weird to wrap my head around. As is Rand’s repeatedly blowing out of Lanfear’s back.

They also just sort of said “fuck Uno”, though playing him out as a half-crazed populist zealot probably doesn’t add much to the show.

When in the blue fuck is Mat going to get his juice and stop being written as some sort of lost and broken whipping boy? The last 3 episodes have at least played up the charm a bit, but fuck. Can’t even root for my favorite character in a show I’ve waited a decade for.

As someone who read the whole series 3x, I’ve sort of made peace with the show being it’s own thing.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Stilicho

[Hozz 1017]

I really do not understand when shows are created based on existing, popular enough to get a show made about it, lore and then they go and ignore/change huge parts of the lore because reasons that have zero to do with making a more popular, better end result.  Witcher did the same thing.  From a let's make money perspective, this makes zero sense and yet it keeps happening.

[atomheartbevo 89652]

21 minutes ago, Hozz said:

I really do not understand when shows are created based on existing, popular enough to get a show made about it, lore and then they go and ignore/change huge parts of the lore because reasons that have zero to do with making a more popular, better end result.  Witcher did the same thing.  From a let's make money perspective, this makes zero sense and yet it keeps happening.

The problem is boiling down books that could easily generate 20+ hours of TV content, into 10 or 12 hours of TV content.  Plus, unlike a book where it's already been paid for and so the reader has a vested (financial) interest in getting through the early worldbuilding, the showrunners have to get people, whether they are familiar or not with the original work, sucked into the show within the first 2 hours (which is why a lot of services drop 2-3 episodes up front). 

People have too many distractions/alternatives, and if its' a streaming service, it's easy for them to hit the return button and find something else, because they don't see themselves as having paid for that particular show, they see themselves as having paid for the service full of shows.

Still, showrunners make some stupid fucking choices at times.

[Chips O'Toole 1322]

The first season had a shitload of problems and wasn't at all what I hoped it would be, but I still found myself looking forward to watching it.  I only read 3 of the books, so I wasn't that invested in the source material. They did lay a giant turd at the end though, that was bizarre. 

 

[YChang 3443]

Does Rosamund Pike get naked? If so, I’ll def watch. 

[The Dude 1244]

Lanfear is a smoke show

[Modessit 5600]

As someone who really liked the books, I've avoided the series ever since I found out they changed Perrin's story in the beginning. A change like that bothers me and it would continue bothering me. After reading some comments - and spoilers - about other changes, I'll probably never watch this.

[SpiralOut 1813]

5 hours ago, Modessit said:

As someone who really liked the books, I've avoided the series ever since I found out they changed Perrin's story in the beginning. A change like that bothers me and it would continue bothering me. After reading some comments - and spoilers - about other changes, I'll probably never watch this.

While it irked me quite a bit how much they deviated from the books in season one, it just isn't bothering me as much this season.  I think a big problem I had was that the changes were dumb.  And they were adding shit that was dumb and made no sense.  This season the changes are also wild, but they aren't as stupid.  Like even

Spoiler

Rand fucking Lanfear makes sense even though I couldn't believe they did it when I first saw it.  She's getting her Rand time just like she did in the books.  She's taking the place of the Trollocs/Padan Fain that run Rand out of Cairhien since the Horn of Valere took a more expedient route to Falme and Seanchan hands.  And because they're cutting the Siuan/Moiraine "Let Rand loose to learn plan" short to save time and help get Siuan kicked out as the Amyrlin.  Them having a sexual relationship is probably just because they're making the story more horny for the casual viewers and to maybe ease them into the polygamy shit later.  Plus giving more of a reason for Rand to not want to kill her since he has his whole "I don't hurt women" thing.

The show was a poor WoT adaptation in season one.  But it was also just a bad TV show.  This season it's a better WoT adaptation even with the changes and it's also just a better TV show.  So it's trending in the right direction.

If you need it to be a super faithful adaptation though, yeah, it probably ain't for you.  

[UTGrad98 2271]

1 hour ago, SpiralOut said:

While it irked me quite a bit how much they deviated from the books in season one, it just isn't bothering me as much this season.  I think a big problem I had was that the changes were dumb.  And they were adding shit that was dumb and made no sense.  This season the changes are also wild, but they aren't as stupid.  Like even

  Hide contents

Rand fucking Lanfear makes sense even though I couldn't believe they did it when I first saw it.  She's getting her Rand time just like she did in the books.  She's taking the place of the Trollocs/Padan Fain that run Rand out of Cairhien since the Horn of Valere took a more expedient route to Falme and Seanchan hands.  And because they're cutting the Siuan/Moiraine "Let Rand loose to learn plan" short to save time and help get Siuan kicked out as the Amyrlin.  Them having a sexual relationship is probably just because they're making the story more horny for the casual viewers and to maybe ease them into the polygamy shit later.  Plus giving more of a reason for Rand to not want to kill her since he has his whole "I don't hurt women" thing.

The show was a poor WoT adaptation in season one.  But it was also just a bad TV show.  This season it's a better WoT adaptation even with the changes and it's also just a better TV show.  So it's trending in the right direction.

If you need it to be a super faithful adaptation though, yeah, it probably ain't for you.  

This. I tried to like the show in season 1 because I love the books. The more I thought about it after the season ended, the more I realized it just sucked shit and the choices they made were painful to watch. Season 2 is much better. I like the choices they have made since I now know there will be no faithful adaptation. Lowered expectations helps. Rand/Lanfear - thumbs up. Min/Matt - thumbs up. Liandrin story change - thumbs up. Any forsaken scene - thumbs up. The choice/character arc for Elayne - thumbs up. The only thing that still pisses me off is Moiraine and her story and screen time. She is a SIDE character. Quit making the show about her. 

[demos 3002]

Rereading the 2nd book, this show just irks me the way they’ve unnecessarily rewritten the story.

[atomheartbevo 89652]

2 hours ago, UTGrad98 said:

The only thing that still pisses me off is Moiraine and her story and screen time. She is a SIDE character. Quit making the show about her. 

2 hours ago, demos said:

Rereading the 2nd book, this show just irks me the way they’ve unnecessarily rewritten the story.

I think it's one of those things that... I fucking hate the cliche that a book is "un-filmable", but the people funding this are wanting a series that can work for people who have never read the books while trying to get that built-in audience of people who have read the books and who were giddy that they were making it.  The people making it are trying to thread the needle between both the non-readers and the ones who feel compelled to make 30-minute YouTube videos nitpicking each episode.

This is running in parallel with the productions for 'Foundation' and 'Rings of Power'*, so we have a couple of shows that some considered "un-filmable", that are being filmed as well, that we can compare/contrast (well RoP is a separate topic).  I think Foundation struck the right balance and then some, particularly with all of the time/space jumps.  Wheel of Time...I think the second season of Wheel of Time was definitely a big improvement, but I still don't think they've figured out how to let some stuff go (such as Moraine not being central to everything) and just fucking plow through and let the audience of non-readers catch up on their own. Foundation did that, although it took them a while.

* RoP benefits from not being to a specific book and instead a lot of Tolkien notes/unfinished books and some creative latitude, but RoP is also crippled by not being allowed to use certain Tolkien story elements or characters because of rights' issues with another production studio.

[SpiralOut 1813]

18 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

This is running in parallel with the productions for 'Foundation' and 'Rings of Power'*, so we have a couple of shows that some considered "un-filmable", that are being filmed as well, that we can compare/contrast (well RoP is a separate topic).  I think Foundation struck the right balance and then some, particularly with all of the time/space jumps.  Wheel of Time...I think the second season of Wheel of Time was definitely a big improvement, but I still don't think they've figured out how to let some stuff go (such as Moraine not being central to everything) and just fucking plow through and let the audience of non-readers catch up on their own. Foundation did that, although it took them a while.

Yeah, one problem all these shows run into is the need to attract as many viewers as they can, like you said, so naturally they go with some bigger name actor/actress.  Then, they get hamstrung into shoving that actor/actress into every episode whether they should be there or not.

Game of Thrones had this problem with Lena Headey.  Her story should have been fairly minimal after Dany burninates all her armies and the Night King comes south of the Wall.  Instead, the idiots running that show made the NK a joke and wrapped that much more impactful and interesting storyline as quick as possible so we could get back to King's Landing and Cersei's bullshit.  Like every episode you have to shove Lena Headey drinking wine at a window into the episode.  

WoT is suffering from this with Moiraine because, well, you paid Rosamund Pike and she's the only even somewhat famous name on the show so you're getting Rosamund Pike.  It seriously makes me wonder what they're going to do when it comes time to have 

Spoiler

her and Lanfear shoved through the twisted red door.

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by SpiralOut

[Modessit 5600]

I don't think they need to be super faithful, but changing entire plot points just to move the series along or switching up relationships partners just to get more sex (or women viewers) is stupid. It's like they wanted a loose background plot and an established title name and forget everything else.

It would be like making a Winnie the Pooh movie where a bear eats a pig before a blonde kid shows up and shoots him.

LoTR books were very dry for me but the movies were fine. The Expanse did a pretty damn good job and I saw most of the series before even reading the books and liked the books as an expansion of the series. Harry Potter figured out how to leave stuff out or condense multiple things into one but keep the main story accurate.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

Not a booking, but I enjoyed this season.

[atomheartbevo 89652]

Season 3 to be "massive"

https://www.thewrap.com/wheel-of-time-season-3-filming-rosamund-pike-daniel-henney-interview/

Quote

While Season 2 of “Wheel of Time” concluded Friday, filming on the Prime Video fantasy series’ third season had already started filming prior to the SAG-AFTRA strike. 

“I am speaking to you a day after filming it. We are in the midst of it. We are all energized by everything that’s going on in Season 3,” star Rosamund Pike told TheWrap in a June 28 interview, days before the onset of actors’ guild strike. “We feel like we’ve established the rules of our world, we can explore them and push the boundaries, we can do more experimental camera work and we can try and get a visual language for these incredible concepts that [author] Robert Jordan came up with.”

Quote

Series co-star Daniel Henney, who said he was on a filming break at the time, teased that Season 3 would be “massive,” adding that there are “so many new cast members.” 

“It’s nice because it gives us time to go home and see our families. This is kind of what I hope for when taking a big fantasy show is there’d be so many characters so we could all travel and things like that,” he explained. “So yeah, they’re shooting and we’re being very ambitious this season, with some big traveling plans toward the end of this year for my character specifically, and Moiraine (Pike). So it’s going to be in the same vein. We want it to flow, be darker, same pacing. It’s going to be great.”

More at the link, but interesting.

[The Dude 1244]

18 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Not a booking, but I enjoyed this season.

Me too

[Dylan383 6]

Loved this season. Finally made me want to read the books Rosamund Pike does a great jobs with the audiobooks.

[kevwun 15774]

Yep, 2nd season was much, much better.

[SpiralOut 1813]

Enjoyed the finale.

Only real problem I have is in regards to Rand and how he is being handled.

Spoiler

Book Rand kills Turak in a swordfight.  He doesn't want to do it.  It weighs heavily on him.  Kinda a watershed moment for him starting to become the killer he's going to have to be as the Dragon Reborn and the peaceful country bumpkin he used to be.  Instead, in the show, he just insta-murks Turak and like 10 other people with the Power.  Not a second's remorse or hesitation.  

As far as the final confrontation with Ishy, the show is deciding to go the whole Emond's Field Five Superfriends route.  Rand has all his pals there to help him.  Except that kind of butchers Rand's character.  In the books, he has to fight Ishy alone.  He's totally not ready for that, but he uses Lan's training and he truly becomes the Dragon Reborn in that fight.  Why?  Because he takes the first step to realizing he has to commit to dying and sacrificing himself.  That's why he "takes the blow" so he can get the opening to kill Ishy.  In the show he doesn't have to challenge himself whatsoever.  He gets shielded, is going to go out like a bitch, and then the wound he gets is from the SL dagger and Mat doing dumbass Mat things.  Then everyone shows up to hold his hand.

Book Rand has a journey as a character.  He starts an innocent country bumpkin, but then from having the weight of the entire world on his shoulders and having to do shit like fight Ishy by himself, becomes a hardass.  He gets harder and more emotionally distant and commits atrocities and almost ends up committing suicide before stepping back from the edge.  He finally truly comes to terms with having to die.  He "embraces death" as the Wise Ones say.  That's a character arc.  Shows growth, maturity, etc.  Show Rand is skipping all of this, seemingly and instead will just rely on all his buddies to be there to save his ass.  

I will say, Show Forsaken are miles better than Book Forsaken so far.  

[Dylan383 6]

Did this season essentially follow the Great Hunt? Maybe I will start with that book and read book three before the next season?

[bernorange 8359]

So I'm late to watching the rest of season 2 as we had stopped mid way through months ago and just finished binging the last half of the season.  As someone who has not read the books and doesn't know shit about this story other than what I've read in this thread, the show has been a frustrating mess.  I understand the business of show maling forces compromises, but I would have preferred a story with more depth for the characters than what we got.  A lot of shit doesn't really make sense and the whole girl power stuff is, at this point and IMO, a bit overdone by Hollywood.

That said the 2nd half of season 2 started to tie the story together with better pacing.  

Vincent Price said that a story is only as good as it's villian(s).  The dark fiends (Ishamael, Lanfear and the others we haven't really met yet) seem to have some depth and complexity to them.

[atomheartbevo 89652]

31 minutes ago, bernorange said:

As someone who has not read the books

31 minutes ago, bernorange said:

 the show has been a frustrating mess. 

Oh, the books are...there's a lot of books, and "frustrating mess" has been used to describe them.  The show runners have actually trying to adjust for some of the issues in the books, but ultimately the books have issues that carry into the TV show.

• There's too many characters and too many plot lines in the books.  It's a result of a lot of books, many of which are very big (number of pages).
• The pacing  went from slow to fast to slow, and sometimes the plots didn't seem like they would resolve themselves, and other times the plots/arcs were over before you knew it, and I think this is a problem with the TV show.
• Motivations of various characters/groups were not always clear, and I actually think the TV show has tried to correct that.
• The magic system can be a hot mess, because the book didn't always explain it (I think he kept it vague for a reason), and it varied between characters (different abilities) and over time.  Same goes for the prophecies that are supposed to be so important to everything, but they didn't always mesh well in the books.

Amazon does have a bit of a guide to what's been shown on screen - click on the "Explore" tab when you scroll down (it probably defaults to Episodes)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09F5KBXB6/

Apple had a smaller (but similar) problem with Foundation (jumping around in time, "prophecies" of a sort, lots of characters/plots), and they've been able to thread the needle (especially in the second season), but I'm still surprised that somebody made both of these shows.

Edited November 24, 2023 by atomheartbevo