Texas Cowboy needs thoughts, prayers, and support

[DDD Dad 14167]

My youngest son's fraternity brother was in a terrible car accident this weekend on his way back from a Cowboys retreat.

Story here

Please keep Nicky Cumberland and his family and friends in your thoughts and prayers.  For those wishing to provide financial assistance, a GoFundMe page has been set up.  Here is the link.

GoFundMe

It raised $40K within 5 hours and is nearly at its $100,000 goal.

[mapplewhite132 309]

Ugh, so tragic. I saw a blurb in the article that the driver may have fallen asleep at the wheel. I was a cowboy, and remember almost falling asleep at the wheel on the way back from one of these retreats. Not a csb

[HouTex 1847]

Horrible.  Is this the event that used to be called the "picnic"? 

[Blanton 170]

Wouldn’t be the first time a Texas Cowboys event result in injury/death

Remember when Smokey was operated by the Spurs?

Shit’s terrible 

[Hellraiser97 180]

https://www.statesman.com/news/20181119/hazing-preceded-car-crash-that-killed-ut-student-family-says

And to the surprise of exactly no one, hazing was involved

Quote

The family of a University of Texas student who died from injuries in a car crash while returning from an off-campus event says it has learned that hazing took place at the event.

The allegations involve the Texas Cowboys, a spirit group that held an initiation retreat in September, according to an article in the Daily Texan, UT’s student newspaper. The Cowboys fire “Smokey the Cannon” at football games.

Nicholas Cumberland, 20, died about a month after the crash that happened the morning of Sept. 30. The vehicle rolled over after the driver fell asleep, according to a Texas Department of Public Safety crash report obtained by the American-Statesman.

“Why was our son and a group of new Cowboy pledges permitted to depart on a 2½-hour drive from a ranch back to Austin around 4 a.m. in the morning with zero sleep after a full day of initiation activities?” the Cumberland family said in a statement provided to the Daily Texan. “Following some inquiries, we were saddened to learn of specific alleged hazing activities at the Cowboy offsite event. We were under the naïve impression that hazing was long dead at Texas.”

 

“In the aftermath of the accident, our priority has been the welfare of all of the students involved,” said UT spokesman J.B. Bird. “We very recently received information on allegations of hazing. The university takes all accusations of hazing seriously and investigates them as warranted. We are evaluating how to proceed with the information we have at this time.”

In 1995, 19-year-old UT student Gabe Higgins drowned in the Colorado River after drinking during an initiation rite with the Texas Cowboys. The university disbanded the group for five years after the incident.

 

[Tylerocks 2551]

Coincidentally both Cumberland and Higgins (1995) were both Kappa Sigs.

 

 

 

[Hellraiser97 180]

In 1995 they got the 5 year ban, the worst that the University could do. If it takes a BoR action, they need to allow Fences to ban them permanently. It's obvious that not even a 5 year ban is enough to cleanse thier organization, they're rotten to the core.

I do not like OU

[Lat22 3990]

So sad and unecessary  

“We were under the naïve impression that hazing was long dead at Texas.”

 

It’s still alive and well at most universities.

 

[phdhorn 6224]

My son was saying a few weeks ago that he was either invited informally or came across a chance or something (not sure how it works) to join the Cowboys next year.

I told him if he did, I would pull his funding for school.

I don't think he is now.

[Post Oak 20182]

My wife knew him from when she worked at UT.  She was devastated about the accident and passing. This will be really tough for her to handle.

So fucking senseless.

[Captain Ron 12789]

I'm in Austin for the holidays and I saw this at a coffee shop on the cover of the Daily Texan this morning, went back and read many of the details, just a senseless tragedy.

I can't say that the group is rotten to the core, but clearly there are some people within that group that have made some seriously bad decisions. Given that this is a repeat offense for this squad, something drastic has to happen such that this never happens again.

 

BTW - a version of the old incident is here (along with the Group's history): https://issuu.com/timtaliaferro/docs/texascowboys

 

[Hellraiser97 180]

34 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

I can't say that the group is rotten to the core, but clearly there are some people within that group that have made some seriously bad decisions. Given that this is a repeat offense for this squad, something drastic has to happen such that this never happens again.

It goes far beyond 'some people within that group that have made some seriously bad decisions.'  It honestly reminds me of the cultural problem at Penn State.  GoLL eviscerated them on the old site about how the culture pervaded everything surrounding PSU football and that the only way to clean it was to nuke it from orbit.  This is basically the same.  Look at the history of this organization.  

Sure, they have a lot of prominent alumni that have legitimately done a lot of good things in life, but the Texas Cowboys simply isn't one of them.  The only reason that shit stain of an organization still exists is because of the power those assholes wield.  Consider the following:

They were founded in 1922 - Starting in the 1940's, they literally did not go a SINGLE decade without at least one period of probation related to hazing.  Did they get the message?  Did they change their ways?  Nope, the hazing just got worse and worse until it culminated in the death of a pledge in 1995.  They had just been placed on probation the previous fall for hazing (you may remember we had no Smokey for 3 games in 1994 due to this), which followed on being probation for hazing the year before!  

After Gabe Higgins was killed, President Berdahl dragged the leadership of all spirit organizations, frats and sororities for a big meeting on hazing.  It was pretty brutal at times.  He flat out said maybe if he had taken a harder line on hazing before, Higgins would still be alive.  But unless they had banned the organization, it obviously wouldn't have mattered as these assholes didn't care and didn't think the rules, or laws, applied to them.  This time they got the 5 year 'death penalty.'

Only it wasn't the death penalty.  Literally within days, they formed the Texas Cowboys Alumni Association in order to 'preserve their traditions and history.'  Not once did the Cowboys or their alums apologize for the disgrace they brought onto our University, even after the civil settlements.  They did however refuse to let anyone else use Smokey during their 5 years, at first.  They finally agreed to let the Spurs fire it off, after they extorted $10k from them (which, not coincidentally, was the same amount the state levies as a fine in hazing cases).  

Then they came back in 2000.  Ohh now, their alumni association had assured everyone that they'd taken a hard line against hazing.  Of course, we all knew it wasn't true.  Just google Texas Cowboys and hazing.  You'll find posts online as far back as '04 asking about how bad the hazing is and people talking about it being brutal.  But hey, they did manage something from 2000 to 2010 that they hadn't in 60 previous years.  They managed to not get put on probation for hazing for once!

In 2003, they did manage to raise a bunch of money for a Gabe Higgins pavillion at the alumni center.  Take a stroll there some time.  There's a reference to his death, but last I looked, I failed to find any taking of responsibility, mention that the hazing of Higgins resulted in the 5 year ban of the organization, etc.  It was just a 'tragic accident' after all, just ask any Texas Cowboy member or alum.

And now, here we are in 2018 and another pledge has died after a serious period of hazing.  Just like Higgins, while it may not be provable in a criminal court of law that the hazing directly led to the death, there's zero doubt it was a large contributing factor.  But, hey, their alumni association released a statement about how serious they take all this:

Quote

"The welfare and safety of its students is the first priority of the Texas Cowboys,” the association wrote in a statement to The Texan. “The Texas Cowboys have zero tolerance for hazing of any kind. After the investigation is complete, the Texas Cowboys will take any necessary actions to ensure a safe environment for current and future Cowboys.”

Fuck them.  There should not be ANY future Cowboys.  This organization is an absolute embarrassment to our University and a danger to its members and pledges.  It's time for it to be gone.  Permanently.

In '95, I looked into the cost of building a new canon since the Cowboys were holding it hostage.  It was about $25k.  So call that $50k now, because you know those self-centered assholes will do it again.  We should raise enough to do it and donate the damn thing to University.  The University's traditions belong to the school, not any one organization.  I'd kick in $5k just to increase the possibility that these assholes will never be on UT's campus again.

 

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/2018/11/18/family-of-texas-cowboys-pledge-requests-investigation-following-deadly-crash

Quote

The family of Nicholas Cumberland has asked for an investigation into alleged hazing at this year’s Texas Cowboys initiation retreat, according to a statement provided to The Daily Texan. This follows the death of their son from injuries sustained as a passenger in a car crash returning from the retreat in the early morning hours of Sept. 30.

The crash, which occurred at 5:43 a.m. an hour and a half northwest of Austin, was a result of the driver falling asleep, according to the crash report. The driver, who is a new member of Texas Cowboys, did not respond to requests for comment.

“Why was our son and a group of new Cowboy pledges permitted to depart on a two and a half hour drive from a ranch back to Austin around 4 a.m. in the morning with zero sleep after a full day of initiation activities?” the statement said.

Nicholas “Nicky” Cumberland spent four weeks on life support following the crash and his funeral was held on Nov. 3. Clio Harralson, Nicky’s girlfriend, said Nicky left for the retreat around 4 p.m. the day before the crash and told her he would return the next morning.

The Cumberland family said they heard allegations of hazing following the crash and then shared “information and documents with the proper authorities,” according to the statement.

University spokesman J.B. Bird confirmed the University recently received allegations of hazing connected to the accident but didn’t specify where the University received the information.

“The University takes all accusations of hazing seriously and investigates them as warranted,” Bird wrote in a statement given to the Texan. “We are evaluating how to proceed with the information we have at this time.”

Texas Cowboys, a registered student organization best known for firing “Smokey the Cannon” at football games, did not respond to repeated requests for comment. In addition, The Texan reached out to four current members of the organization, who did not respond to requests for comment.

However, the Texas Cowboys Alumni Association said it has launched an investigation into the events of this year’s Cowboys initiation retreat.

“The welfare and safety of its students is the first priority of the Texas Cowboys,” the association wrote in a statement to The Texan. “The Texas Cowboys have zero tolerance for hazing of any kind. After the investigation is complete, the Texas Cowboys will take any necessary actions to ensure a safe environment for current and future Cowboys.”

Texas Cowboys were previously suspended for five years in 1995 after the University determined hazing occurred at the Cowboy’s initiation retreat earlier that year. During that year’s initiation retreat, then-pledge Gabe Higgins was found dead in the Colorado River near Bastrop with a blood alcohol content twice the legal limit for driving.

The Cumberland family notes in the statement that Texas law and UT policy grant immunity to people who report hazing incidents.

“Our family will have no sympathy for anyone who adopts or encourages a code of silence; however, based on the candid discussions and support we’ve had so far, we are confident that this will be an open, transparent and cathartic process,” the statement said.

Harralson, Nicky’s girlfriend and a former Texan staffer, echoed the family’s sentiment.

“We’re not trying to punish anyone,” said Harralson, a Plan II, management information systems and business honors junior. “We just want to find out what happened to the person we love.”

 

[David Dennison 18608]

Anyone found guilty of hazing in any organization should be kicked out of school.

 

[DalTxHornFan 3084]

 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

I don't condone absurd or dangerous hazing.  The Cowboys have definitely changed their policies for membership so that it is not nearly as exclusively dominated by fraternities and there are a lot more non-fraternity members now and for several years than at any time in their past.  I had assumed that the paddling and drinking associated with Tap In and Picnic were reduced or eliminated with the changes. I would be very interested to know if Picnic, which I assume this was, is now a fraternity-Cowboy event or fully sanctioned by the organization and if it still involves the grotesque hazing that it did in the 80s and prior (and up to the HIggins death).

It conceivably could avoid the hazing and just involve massive drinking and staying up all night and lead to this type of outcome.

As to Smokey, the Cowboys introduced the tradition.  They own the cannon and always have.  If they were defunct or suspended, I could see someone else taking over for them, as did the Spurs from 1995-2000, but I'm not sure I buy this notion that their tradition belongs to the University apart from the organization.

This may cause further changes, which would be good, but a staggering number of the most prominent and influential alumni of The University of Texas were Cowboys and Spurs.  It's not going away.  And I disagree that they are an embarrassment. Setting aside for a moment their embarrassing incidents, which are relatively few and far between, they're actually pretty cool, as are the Spurs.  Another curiosity is how the Spurs have largely avoided the embarrassing events.  They used to do the exact same shit and I assume that whatever the Cowboys do, they do, to this day.

[Hellraiser97 180]

That's the exact point. These incidents are NOT few and far between. They keep happening over and over. At least in 1995, they had been on probation more than ANY other organization in UT history and always for hazing. It was either 9 or 11 times at that point, I cant remember which. And it's not like they weren't hazing then just sudden it goofed each time. Its a pattern of behavior year after year where they just got caught every few years, didn't give a shit about the penalities and continued on.

They deserve to be gone permanently

I do not like OU

[TwiceHorn 31184]

9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't condone absurd or dangerous hazing.  The Cowboys have definitely changed their policies for membership so that it is not nearly as exclusively dominated by fraternities and there are a lot more non-fraternity members now and for several years than at any time in their past.  I had assumed that the paddling and drinking associated with Tap In and Picnic were reduced or eliminated with the changes. I would be very interested to know if Picnic, which I assume this was, is now a fraternity-Cowboy event or fully sanctioned by the organization and if it still involves the grotesque hazing that it did in the 80s and prior (and up to the HIggins death).

It conceivably could avoid the hazing and just involve massive drinking and staying up all night and lead to this type of outcome.

As to Smokey, the Cowboys introduced the tradition.  They own the cannon and always have.  If they were defunct or suspended, I could see someone else taking over for them, as did the Spurs from 1995-2000, but I'm not sure I buy this notion that their tradition belongs to the University apart from the organization.

This may cause further changes, which would be good, but a staggering number of the most prominent and influential alumni of The University of Texas were Cowboys and Spurs.  It's not going away.  And I disagree that they are an embarrassment. Setting aside for a moment their embarrassing incidents, which are relatively few and far between, they're actually pretty cool, as are the Spurs.  Another curiosity is how the Spurs have largely avoided the embarrassing events.  They used to do the exact same shit and I assume that whatever the Cowboys do, they do, to this day.

Let me clarify that.  Some  hazing, like having the new guys sing "I'm a little teapot" is absurd, and as long as not combined with forced drinking or violence, doesn't bother me in the least, but fits some of the broader definitions of hazing, if not the criminal ones.  When I said absurd, I meant gratuitously violent or coercive, even if not dangerous, viz. paddling, cattle prods, eating entire cans of Copenhagen, and the like.

[David Dennison 18608]

18 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Another curiosity is how the Spurs have largely avoided the embarrassing events.  They used to do the exact same shit and I assume that whatever the Cowboys do, they do, to this day.

Luck.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

19 minutes ago, Hellraiser97 said:

That's the exact point. These incidents are NOT few and far between. They keep happening over and over. At least in 1995, they had been on probation more than ANY other organization in UT history and always for hazing. It was either 9 or 11 times at that point, I cant remember which. And it's not like they weren't hazing then just sudden it goofed each time. Its a pattern of behavior year after year where they just got caught every few years, didn't give a shit about the penalities and continued on.

They deserve to be gone permanently

I do not like OU
 

Well, to give some perspective, that was nearly a quarter century ago and I'm not sure they have continued that pattern. Also I find it difficult to believe that 9-11 penalties for hazing made them the most penalized organization in University history, although maybe it was registered student organization, which frats haven't been since the 70s.

I know back in the 80s, the independent members knew what they were in for and largely acquiesced to the hazing.  Now, there are a huge number of non-Greeks that are Cowboys and Spurs and I don't know how you get them to acquiesce to being paddled >100 times on two separate occasions or drinking themselves into a blind stupor (although the latter is easier to believe than the former).  So I am inclined to believe the organzation(s) (here including the Spurs) have changed.  But I do not know to what degree.

Also, by "cool" I meant they look cool on the sidelines, Smokey and Bevo are cool.  They are infinitely cooler than bell ringers, or sooner schooner twats, or most of the other sideline goofballs other schools have.  I don't believe most people see them and think, "oh, those are the pledge-murdering frat assholes  . . . . "

Edited November 20, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[DalTxHornFan 3084]

Cool your jets, boys.  Correlation is not causation.   For all we know, the Cowboys could have been having a lovely tea party (T-sips, ya' know?) with their new members out at some ranch looking at the stars.  Or they could have been paddling the shit out of them out under those stars.  None of that has anything to do with an individual deciding to drive home after the event in the middle of the night and falling asleep behind the wheel. 

[Hellraiser97 180]

Well, to give some perspective, that was nearly a quarter century ago and I'm not sure they have continued that pattern. Also I find it difficult to believe that 9-11 penalties for hazing made them the most penalized organization in University history, although maybe it was registered student organization, which frats haven't been since the 70s.

I know back in the 80s, the independent members knew what they were in for and largely acquiesced to the hazing.  Now, there are a huge number of non-Greeks that are Cowboys and Spurs and I don't know how you get them to acquiesce to being paddled >100 times on two separate occasions or drinking themselves into a blind stupor (although the latter is easier to believe than the former).  So I am inclined to believe the organzation(s) (here including the Spurs) have changed.  But I do not know to what degree.

Also, by "cool" I meant they look cool on the sidelines, Smokey and Bevo are cool.  They are infinitely cooler than bell ringers, or sooner schooner twats, or most of the other sideline goofballs other schools have.  I don't believe most people see them and think, "oh, those are the pledge-murdering frat assholes  . . . . "

Wow, you just keep making excuses for them. Do you really believe that they just suddenly started hazing again after keeping thier noses clean for 17 years? Are you that naive?

 

Even if they aren't paddling pledges like they did in the 90s, there are plenty of other forms of hazing, like sleep deprivation, that are illegal and dangerous. They may have changed their methods but they have not changed their ways.

 

No matter how 'cool' they look like the sidelines, they don't deserve to represent our University anymore, if they ever did.

 

 

 

I do not like OU

 

 

 

[Captain Ron 12789]

While I might disagree to what degree it needs to hit them, I don't disagree these guys need the hammer dropped on them.

I certainly agree that they are going to be off campus a while. The last similar case I can find happening on campus was Lambda Phi Epsilon, they were kicked off campus for 6 years in 2005. I don't know their disciplinary history. This was via a very cursory search.

And look, this isn't defending the by any stretch, more along the lines of asking questions, think of it as, you're the one advocating they be gone, convince me':

So you mention they have been on probation every decade since the 40s. What are the dates, and what for?

How does their track record compare against other organizations?

 

[Hellraiser97 180]

While I might disagree to what degree it needs to hit them, I don't disagree these guys need the hammer dropped on them.
I certainly agree that they are going to be off campus a while. The last similar case I can find happening on campus was Lambda Phi Epsilon, they were kicked off campus for 6 years in 2005. I don't know their disciplinary history. This was via a very cursory search.
And look, this isn't defending the by any stretch, more along the lines of asking questions, think of it as, you're the one advocating they be gone, convince me':
So you mention they have been on probation every decade since the 40s. What are the dates, and what for?
How does their track record compare against other organizations?
 

I'm basing this on articles written around the 95 incident, so I don't have the information readily available, but I'll look for it. I think the Texan archives are all online. There was no oganization even close though. Any organization that got in trouble that much just wouldn't survive without serious alumni backers.

I do not like OU

[DanRydell 799]

11 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Anyone found guilty of hazing in any organization should be kicked out of school.

 

With the caveat of defining hazing as involving drugs or alcohol, violence, nudity/sex, sleep deprivation, exposure to the elements, etc., I agree. Holding the organization responsible is all well and good but the organization doesn't force students to engage in hazing. 

[El Diablo 4232]

1 hour ago, DanRydell said:

With the caveat of defining hazing as involving drugs or alcohol, violence, nudity/sex, sleep deprivation, exposure to the elements, etc., I agree. Holding the organization responsible is all well and good but the organization doesn't force students to engage in hazing. 

It's not a student run organization?

[Captain Ron 12789]

They don't force the members to do certain things, but Hellraizer isn't wrong in saying certain activities are cultural in the groups. Some groups culture is to get together before sporting events, kill a keg of beer and then head to the game. Clearly with the Cowboys one of their things is hazing during their off campus events. The reason that you have to hold then organization responsible is that because it's in the culture of the group, it can spiral out of control. Read the article I posted. Their hazing went from paddling to extreme paddling to paddling until bleeding to shocking them with a car battery.

Let's not forget one thing, the primary architect of Smokey being in the hands of solely the Cowboys:

Spoiler

I will say this: There are two things at play here:

1. Smokey, which as a tradition is the University's not the Cowboys. That should survive beyond them, with that cannon or a new one.

2. The fate of the Cowboys, which is on them. I won't go so far as calling them an embarrassment, but they certainly have crossed a line that calls for major punishment.

[DDD Dad 14167]

I’m just sad.

Very relieved my son chose not to join them.

I get the anger and feel absolutely horrible for his parents.

[HouTex 1847]

Is the investigation complete? 

[crash_davis 23078]

what happens if/when the parents sue the org?  does the group have a legal fund?

[Jacob McCandles 202]

2 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

what happens if/when the parents sue the org?  does the group have a legal fund?

I suspect that the org has some type of insurance. But what is the theory by which the org is responsible? Cumberland was already a member and wasn't getting hazed (if hazing was even going on). And regardless, if there was hazing, it did not contribute to the accident. The org may have provided Cumberland with alcohol while under age, but there are no indications that his BAC, if any, contributed to his death, i.e. he wasn't driving and he didn't pass out. The report is that the driver fell asleep and crashed. Cumberland was the only one in the car not wearing a seat belt and was ejected. I think the only way you pop the org is by arguing that the org provided alcohol to the driver and that his BAC was over the limit and that caused him to fall asleep. Social host liability theory. But the defense (whether it be the org's defense or the driver's defense) is going to argue that Cumberland was contributorily negligent in not using his belt. 

[HouTex 1847]

21 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

what happens if/when the parents sue the org?  does the group have a legal fund?

They might have insurance.  I'm not aware of any assets owned by the organization.  They would need to sue individual members under a tort theory.

[PW119 166]

17 hours ago, Hellraiser97 said:

It goes far beyond 'some people within that group that have made some seriously bad decisions.'  It honestly reminds me of the cultural problem at Penn State. 

Sure, they have a lot of prominent alumni that have legitimately done a lot of good things in life, but the Texas Cowboys simply isn't one of them.  The only reason that shit stain of an organization still exists is because of the power those assholes wield.

And now, here we are in 2018 and another pledge has died after a serious period of hazing. 

Fuck them.  There should not be ANY future Cowboys.  This organization is an absolute embarrassment to our University and a danger to its members and pledges.  It's time for it to be gone.  Permanently.

In '95, I looked into the cost of building a new canon since the Cowboys were holding it hostage.

Dude, you might want to pump the brakes until the investigation is complete.  The Penn St comparison is laughable.  Why did you look into the cost of building a cannon in 1995?  Your hyperbolic reaction leads me to believe you have motivations beyond morning the loss of a Longhorn student.

[Chuckie Finster 22583]

Just an FYI to those parents relieved that their kids chose "one of the non-hazing spirit groups".... they still haze.  Pretty wild stuff too, in some cases.  Even the ones who will tell you to your face that they were formed specifically to give the kids an option that didn't involve hazing.

Maybe the school needs to make an example of a prominent group like this, because this problem is so much bigger than just the Cowboys.  

[Captain Ron 12789]

14 minutes ago, Jacob McCandles said:

I suspect that the org has some type of insurance. But what is the theory by which the org is responsible? Cumberland was already a member and wasn't getting hazed (if hazing was even going on). And regardless, if there was hazing, it did not contribute to the accident. The org may have provided Cumberland with alcohol while under age, but there are no indications that his BAC, if any, contributed to his death, i.e. he wasn't driving and he didn't pass out. The report is that the driver fell asleep and crashed. Cumberland was the only one in the car not wearing a seat belt and was ejected. I think the only way you pop the org is by arguing that the org provided alcohol to the driver and that his BAC was over the limit and that caused him to fall asleep. Social host liability theory. But the defense (whether it be the org's defense or the driver's defense) is going to argue that Cumberland was contributorily negligent in not using his belt.  

Actually Cumberland was a "New Man" still - IE, still in initiation, this was from their statement from the group:

Quote

"The Texas Cowboys Family is heartbroken over the loss of our friend and New Man, Nicky Cumberland," Texas Cowboys foreman Matthew Sherman said in an email.

That made sense since he was a junior and installation (the picnic) isn't usually until the end of the semester.

There are a lot of ways this could be on the organization. First, this was an organization event, so just about everything happening is on their watch. Second, if they were hazing these guys, and said events included keep them up all night and they have them drive back to Austin, that's putting them in a dangerous situation.

[Hellraiser97 180]

Dude, you might want to pump the brakes until the investigation is complete.  The Penn St comparison is laughable.  Why did you look into the cost of building a cannon in 1995?  Your hyperbolic reaction leads me to believe you have motivations beyond morning the loss of a Longhorn student.

I looked into it because they were refusing to let anyone use it while they were banned. PSU is a good comparison because the problem in both cases is the deeply engrained culture of believing the law doesn't apply to them.

I literally had zero interactions with the Cowboys during their 2 years on campus while I was there. I do take the reputation of the univesity very seriously though and I take the problem of hazing very seriously Read their website. They go on and on about how they represent the best of UT, etc. Their hazing actions have now lead to the deaths of two students. How anyone can defend them with a straight face is beyond me.

I do not like OU

[Hellraiser97 180]

I suspect that the org has some type of insurance. But what is the theory by which the org is responsible? Cumberland was already a member and wasn't getting hazed (if hazing was even going on). And regardless, if there was hazing, it did not contribute to the accident. The org may have provided Cumberland with alcohol while under age, but there are no indications that his BAC, if any, contributed to his death, i.e. he wasn't driving and he didn't pass out. The report is that the driver fell asleep and crashed. Cumberland was the only one in the car not wearing a seat belt and was ejected. I think the only way you pop the org is by arguing that the org provided alcohol to the driver and that his BAC was over the limit and that caused him to fall asleep. Social host liability theory. But the defense (whether it be the org's defense or the driver's defense) is going to argue that Cumberland was contributorily negligent in not using his belt. 

The allegation is that the pledges were subjected to sleep deprivation which had a direct cause in the accident. These guys never should have been allowed in a car for a 2.5 hour drive if they'd been sleep deprived. It's no different than getting someone absolutely plastered and then letting them go for a swim in the Colorado River in full cowboy garb. Which is what happened last time and lead to their 5 year ban.

I do not like OU

[Tylerocks 2551]

After seeing what happened in 1995 (Gabe Higgins was a pledge brother of mine) and watching those guys circle the wagons to protect themselves and the group I wouldn't expect anything to come of this.  

A bunch of spoiled, entitled frat boys with rich influential parents will make this go away, just like they did  back then.

 

[Captain Ron 12789]

Letting them swim or telling them to swim?

[conVINCEd 21468]

The Spurs seem to have a better handle on risk management in extreme hazing situations.  Have several friends who were in each.  The spurs seemed to conduct their beatings and excessive alcohol consumption near campus; and the trips to the ranch were generally daytime affairs.  I’m also not aware of any drunken river crossings with the spurs.  If this was hazing-related, get rid of the cowboys and let the spurs fire the cannon again.

[Jacob McCandles 202]

1 hour ago, Captain Ron said:

Actually Cumberland was a "New Man" still - IE, still in initiation, this was from their statement from the group:

I know things change, but i saw pictures of him in "old man" garb, not "new man" garb, and thus made the assumption.

1 hour ago, Captain Ron said:

There are a lot of ways this could be on the organization. First, this was an organization event, so just about everything happening is on their watch. Second, if they were hazing these guys, and said events included keep them up all night and they have them drive back to Austin, that's putting them in a dangerous situation.

Your points are right to a point. If the org let sleep-deprived and possibly drunk men drive home, then there is potential liability for the org. 

[Netzer 157]

I'm curious why a family that lives in a $2.4 million, 7,559 sqft house needs a $152,000 fundraiser? Were they unable to afford medical insurance? I'm all for helping people in need but this doesn't seems to be the case here.

[DDD Dad 14167]

1 hour ago, Netzer said:

I'm curious why a family that lives in a $2.4 million, 7,559 sqft house needs a $152,000 fundraiser? Were they unable to afford medical insurance? I'm all for helping people in need but this doesn't seems to be the case here.

Not sure of the "need," but health insurance only goes so far on catastrophic cases.  Plus, I wouldn't read too much into the wealth of anyone based on the size and value of their home.  

This seems like a bit of implicit victim shaming.  I'm assuming it wasn't intentional.

[Netzer 157]

Victim shaming? WTF?

I think it's a legitimate question. The father owns a business and is a UT alumnus with degrees in law and accounting. In 2017 the family paid a property tax of $50,000 on their Houston home but has to ask for handouts on the Internet?

You said yourself: "not sure of the need." Does that mean they asked for other people's donations to save their own money? It's stuff like this, that puts many GoFundMe campaigns in a shady light.

But you seem to know the family. Maybe you're able to provide some information in their favor.

[ftf82 485]

2 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

Not sure of the "need," but health insurance only goes so far on catastrophic cases.

Citation? My understanding is that under the ACA annual and lifetime limits are prohibited. Since you seem to know, what are the limits on coverage for catastrophic cases (whatever that means)?

[MadBurgerMaker 403]

Gofundme has some problems, but this one doesn't really seem shady or made up (as in, someone just using the accident to make some $$ or something).  

There could be any number of reasons why they need financial assistance for his medical care.  

Edited November 21, 2018 by MadBurgerMaker

[KaiserSoze 997]

....

Edited November 21, 2018 by KaiserSoze

[DDD Dad 14167]

Victim shaming? WTF?

I think it's a legitimate question. The father owns a business and is a UT alumnus with degrees in law and accounting. In 2017 the family paid a property tax of $50,000 on their Houston home but has to ask for handouts on the Internet?

You said yourself: "not sure of the need." Does that mean they asked for other people's donations to save their own money? It's stuff like this, that puts many GoFundMe campaigns in a shady light.

But you seem to know the family. Maybe you're able to provide some information in their favor.

It means I don’t know what their needs may be/have been.

 

I’m not familiar with their health insurance coverage and whether it meets ACA standards (or perhaps is a grandfathered plan or maybe they didn’t carry?)

 

I don’t know the family. My son was friends with him. I take the go fund me at its word.

 

I didn’t go digging on Zillow to “ask a legitimate question” that implied the family (or someone wishing to help the family) wasn’t deserving of assistance.

 

I also didn’t double down and check on the amount of property tax assessed on their home.

 

I felt the tone of your post was inconsiderate and so I simply pointed out an inference I had drawn from it.

 

His parents might be rolling in money or they might be scraping by to cover his mortgage, taxes, and tuition etc.

 

I’m not going to judge. They just lost their son after a grueling ordeal of watching him waste away for a month.

[huge 3788]

Look I'm as pro RIIIIIIICH as the next guy but if you live in that house and you are scraping by then you don't get any sympathy.  That's what comes with that address.

 

[Tylerocks 2551]

13 hours ago, Netzer said:

Victim shaming? WTF?

I think it's a legitimate question. The father owns a business and is a UT alumnus with degrees in law and accounting. In 2017 the family paid a property tax of $50,000 on their Houston home but has to ask for handouts on the Internet?

You said yourself: "not sure of the need." Does that mean they asked for other people's donations to save their own money? It's stuff like this, that puts many GoFundMe campaigns in a shady light.

But you seem to know the family. Maybe you're able to provide some information in their favor.

Who said the family set up the Gofundme? 

Maybe a friend of his set it up....seeing as college kids are more apt to use the platform.  Maybe it's a small gesture for other people to be able to help a family out in their worst imaginable time??

Edited November 21, 2018 by Tylerocks

[burntorangebongos 10681]

17 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

The Spurs seem to have a better handle on risk management in extreme hazing situations.  Have several friends who were in each.  The spurs seemed to conduct their beatings and excessive alcohol consumption near campus; and the trips to the ranch were generally daytime affairs.  I’m also not aware of any drunken river crossings with the spurs.  If this was hazing-related, get rid of the cowboys and let the spurs fire the cannon again.

Aw dammit, I'm going to hell. That made me laugh hard. Which of these orgs is the one that used to brand their ass? You'd think I'd remember the outfit better, but it eludes me.

I'm sorry for what this family is going through. Guess they'll have the money to lawyer up and sue the Cowboys asses off. That is what I would do with the money, if hazing and not allowing them to sleep a couple of hours on the property before leaving was involved.