Texas Cowboy needs thoughts, prayers, and support

[hayden_horn 11360]

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“New members of the Cowboys were subjected to multiple forms of hazing, including physical brutality, physical activity, forced ingestion of unwanted substances, coerced consumption of alcohol and degradation,” the report said.

During the retreat, the members were coerced to chug a gallon of milk and eat cat food, Spam, Tabasco sauce, minced garlic and whole onions, the document said. One member was coerced into biting the head off of a live hamster. Other hazing included paddling with sticks, forced calisthenics and so-called Oklahoma drills, in which two people run directly at each other in a confined space.

totally normal.

[Huckleberry 32685]

4 minutes ago, Caddox said:

You have people in here blaming the cowboys alleged hazing activities for this kids death. It isn’t “tone deaf” to point out how ridiculous that is in light of the facts.  

If the Cowboys hadn't hazed with sleep deprivation, he wouldn't be dead. You are arguing contributory negligence in the death of a kid, but you're not following the chain of events back far enough.

[relapse98 634]

7 minutes ago, Caddox said:

You have people in here blaming the cowboys alleged hazing activities for this kids death.

Well, we can also blame their incompetence and disregard of UT's rules:

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“could have been avoided had there been adequate risk management practices in place, such as providing transportation to all members and choosing a safer location, closer to campus.”

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UT’s travel rules for student organizations require a navigator for trips taking more than two hours, with the navigator staying awake while on duty. The rules require occupants of vehicles to use seat belts."

 

[relapse98 634]

5 minutes ago, Caddox said:

but the cowboys had arranged professional bus transportation for everyone to and from the property.

*everyone

Except, at least, for the driver who had his own vehicle at the ranch.

And from an earlier article:

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the younger members, including Nicky, were asked to drive themselves and arrange their own transportation.

 

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"After the last campfire ended at 3 a.m. [The Cowboys] allowed these gentlemen after an exhausting day full of things we just outlined and being through a bunch of physical and emotional stress to get behind the wheel of a car and embark on a multi-hour drive back to Austin in the 4 a.m. time frame,"

Someone is lying here. Did they provide "professional bus transportation for everyone" (evidence says no) or not?

Edited March 28, 2019 by relapse98

[Chuckie Finster 22583]

1 minute ago, Caddox said:

You can argue until you’re blue in the face about hazing, that’s great. But pinning this kid’s death on the cowboys or whatever took place the night before is completely retarded. Not only was the driver sober, but the cowboys had arranged professional bus transportation for everyone to and from the property. Please explain how “hazing” killed him? 

"Also, if he had just eaten the required portion of hamster heads, he might have had enough protein in his system to survive the crash."

[TwiceHorn 31184]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

If the Cowboys hadn't hazed with sleep deprivation, he wouldn't be dead. You are arguing contributory negligence in the death of a kid, but you're not following the chain of events back far enough.

From a legal perspective, the individuals have the "last clear chance" to avoid injury caused by sleep deprivation. Also, I think it's more in the nature of an all-night debauch than systematic sleep deprivation.

[Caddox 952]

Just now, Huckleberry said:

If the Cowboys hadn't hazed with sleep deprivation, he wouldn't be dead. You are arguing contributory negligence in the death of a kid, but you're not following the chain of events back far enough.

Where on earth are you getting “hazed with sleep deprivation” from? 

[Huckleberry 32685]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

From a legal perspective, the individuals have the "last clear chance" to avoid injury caused by sleep deprivation. Also, I think it's more in the nature of an all-night debauch than systematic sleep deprivation.

Right, from a legal perspective I wouldn't find them guilty based on what I know now.

But I was talking from a moral and reality-based perspective in the second part of the sentence. If they hadn't hazed that night then he wouldn't have died. It's not a direct and proximate cause but remove the hazing from that night and do we think he dies? Nope.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

1 minute ago, Caddox said:

Where on earth are you getting “hazed with sleep deprivation” from? 

As I said, and it might appear that you have personal knowledge, I don't think it was sleep deprivation in the systematic sense sometimes employed by fraternities.

On the other hand, I think if a new man had crawled off in the bushes to snooze, he would have been summarily dragged back into the festivities.

[relapse98 634]

2 minutes ago, Caddox said:

Where on earth are you getting “hazed with sleep deprivation” from? 

Quote

After the last campfire ended at 3 a.m. [The Cowboys] allowed these gentlemen after an exhausting day full of things we just outlined and being through a bunch of physical and emotional stress to get behind the wheel of a car and embark on a multi-hour drive back to Austin in the 4 a.m. time frame,"

Just a few posts ahead of your reply.

[Caddox 952]

6 minutes ago, relapse98 said:

*everyone

Except, at least, for the driver who had his own vehicle at the ranch.

And from an earlier article:

 

Someone is lying here. Did they provide "professional bus transportation for everyone" (evidence says no) or not?

Arrangements were available for everyone. Most younger guys rode the bus. The only people who didn’t were people that chose not to. The driver of the car doesn’t drink at all let alone that night, and had obviously made the decision to drive back before he ever went out there.

[Chewbacca 7727]

10 minutes ago, Caddox said:

You can argue until you’re blue in the face about hazing, that’s great. But pinning this kid’s death on the cowboys or whatever took place the night before is completely retarded. Not only was the driver sober, but the cowboys had arranged professional bus transportation for everyone to and from the property. Please explain how “hazing” killed him? 

Well, he wasn't on that bus (and reports in this thread indicate that pledges weren't allowed to be on it), and sleep deprivation is a motherfucker, even when you're dead sober.

[relapse98 634]

1 minute ago, Caddox said:

Arrangements were available for everyone.

So then we are back to incompetence and disregard of UT's rules. Winning?

[Caddox 952]

1 minute ago, Chewbacca said:

Well, he wasn't on that bus (and reports in this thread indicate that pledges weren't allowed to be on it), and sleep deprivation is a motherfucker, even when you're dead sober.

That’s not true, most younger people were on the bus.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

Just now, relapse98 said:

Just a few posts ahead of your reply.

A night that ended at 3AM?  Pretty much every Friday and Saturday night from 1984-1991 for me.  What were you doing?

(I jest, but that isn't sleep deprivation in any conventional sense).

[HenryJames 65868]

The Nazis had buses that they made the Jews get on.

[relapse98 634]

Just now, HenryJames said:

The Nazis had buses that they made the Jews get on.

Now we're getting somewhere!

[Chewbacca 7727]

2 minutes ago, Caddox said:

That’s not true, most younger people were on the bus.

Dude, we get it.  You were a Cowboy and want to stick up for the organization.  But you've got to open your eyes here.  A 20 year old kid is dead and the Cowboys contributed to that death.  Quit trying to scream that it isn't their fault and own it.

[irishtexan 11442]

43 minutes ago, Caddox said:

Nothing is less true about it today. 

1. The driver was sober

2. They were asked not to leave.

3. The cowboys have nothing to do with a kid deciding to not wear his seatbelt.

Stop it. Seriously. 

[Chewbacca 7727]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

A night that ended at 3AM?  Pretty much every Friday and Saturday night from 1984-1991 for me.  What were you doing?

(I jest, but that isn't sleep deprivation in any conventional sense).

Going all night without sleep is definitely sleep deprivation.  If they left the ranch around 4 am, does anyone know what time the crash was?

[Caddox 952]

Just now, relapse98 said:

So then we are back to incompetence and disregard of UT's rules. Winning?

The point is breaking those rules isn’t what led to the kid’s death. I’m fine with the cowboys getting punished for breaking rules, but laying this kid’s death at their feet is wrong. 

[relapse98 634]

Just now, Caddox said:

The point is breaking those rules isn’t what led to the kid’s death.

The point is - if a navigator was awake, then the kid wouldn't be dead.

[relapse98 634]

2 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Going all night without sleep is definitely sleep deprivation.  If they left the ranch around 4 am, does anyone know what time the crash was?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/107841633

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5:43 a.m.

 

[Caddox 952]

2 minutes ago, relapse98 said:

The point is - if a navigator was awake, then the kid wouldn't be dead.

If the navigator hadn’t chosen to drive the kid wouldn’t be dead. If the kid hadn’t decided to not wear his seatbelt then he wouldn’t be dead. They made their choice and the cowboys didn’t make it for them. They did, however, provide them with an option that wouldn’t have resulted in tragedy.

[Chewbacca 7727]

7 minutes ago, Caddox said:

The point is breaking those rules isn’t what led to the kid’s death. I’m fine with the cowboys getting punished for breaking rules, but laying this kid’s death at their feet is wrong. 

Or you can look at it from the point of view that allowing them to drive after keeping them up all night was a huge factor in his death.  Who thinks it's a good idea for college kids to make a 3 hour drive at 4am on zero sleep?

[El Diablo 4232]

38 minutes ago, Caddox said:

You have people in here blaming the cowboys alleged hazing activities for this kids death. It isn’t “tone deaf” to point out how ridiculous that is in light of the facts.  

Alleged? LOL.

[phdhorn 6224]

1 hour ago, hayden_horn said:

yeah, this post definitely aged well. 

...unlike Nicky Cumberland.

[Caddox 952]

6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Or you can look at it from the point of view that allowing them to drive after keeping them up all night was a huge factor in his death.  Who thinks it's a good idea for college kids to make a 3 hour drive at 4am on zero sleep?

It’s all just a bunch of college kids. You tell a sober kid not to drive and he tells you to fuck off. It’s a tragedy but get real. They didn’t allow any drunk people to drive.

[Chewbacca 7727]

Just now, Caddox said:

It’s all just a bunch of college kids. You tell a sober kid not to drive and he tells you to fuck off. It’s a tragedy but get real. They didn’t allow any drunk people to drive.

I'm guessing the courts will tell us otherwise when the Cowboys lose the wrongful death lawsuit that is coming their way.  But keep telling yourself they didn't do anything wrong...

[hayden_horn 11360]

might be best to sit this one out, dude. cowboys hazing already killed a kid in the 90s. you got another dead kid on your hands and while you're trying to wash your hands of his death, the point is that the organization should have exercised some risk management and not allowed any of their members to drive to the event, especially after planning a physically arduous day of hardcore hazing.

[relapse98 634]

8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

that the organization should have exercised some risk management and not allowed any of their members to drive to the event

Yeah but some kid will just tell this group of "leaders" to fuck off and there's nothing you can do.

Other than follow UT's rules, require your members to use the provided transportation or not go at all - and there still seems to be a discrepancy as to if the new members were allowed on the bus or not, family says no. But I bet that all comes out during depositions.

And I would also argue that a sleep deprived driver is about as deadly as a drunk driver. I know when I'm tired I drive pretty damn bad - thank goodness they started painting brail on the road.

Edited March 28, 2019 by relapse98

[Chewbacca 7727]

So what purpose is hazing supposed to serve, anyway?  I joined a fraternity for a week and thought the hazing was idiotic so I quit.  I will never understand what the point of treating someone like shit is when you are supposedly going to be 'brothers' when it's done.

 

And why, in 2019, would anyone condone (and make excueses for) hazing?

[Huckleberry 32685]

38 minutes ago, Caddox said:

Where on earth are you getting “hazed with sleep deprivation” from? 

I'm not saying they told the pledges they weren't allowed to sleep, I'm saying they kept the pledges up all night during hazing and didn't provide transportation home. It wasn't direct sleep deprivation but the hazing clearly caused sleep deprivation.

[relapse98 634]

Quote

The 1995 cancellation of the Texas Cowboys sought to provide the organization with the opportunity to abandon the Cowboys’ culture of hazing. However, nearly twenty-five years  after Gabe Higgins’ death, the current investigation found that hazing within the Texas Cowboys has not only persisted, but continues to escalate and now includes unconscionable and meaningless levels of animal cruelty.

Ouch.

[Player 4575]

20 minutes ago, Caddox said:

If the navigator hadn’t chosen to drive the kid wouldn’t be dead. If the kid hadn’t decided to not wear his seatbelt then he wouldn’t be dead. They made their choice and the cowboys didn’t make it for them. They did, however, provide them with an option that wouldn’t have resulted in tragedy.

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 the GMC Canyon pickup rolled over at 5:43 a.m. on Sept. 30 after the driver fell asleep. Cumberland and three others in the back seat were not wearing seat belts.

3 seatbelts for 4 passengers. I get that none of the passengers in the back were wearing a seat belt, but I don't think that's going to resonate with a jury. Especially if the evidence shows that it was mandatory for the pledges to be at the event, and they weren't allowed to ride on the bus with the actives.  

[atomheartbevo 89362]

1 hour ago, hayden_horn said:

totally normal.

If you’re an aggy.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

3 hours ago, relapse98 said:

Ouch.

Of course, there is continuity in the fraternities whose members are Cowboys, so they may be persisting, but it's also indicative of the fact that hazing is just tribal behavior that's going to persist inherently.  I believe both the victims, recently and in 1995, were Kappa Sigs.

What continues to fascinate me is that both Cowboys and Spurs have unprecedentedly high numbers of independent members, who presumably are not "acculturated" with hazing.  You't think that there presence, alone, would cut the brutal hazing way down.

@Gardner Barnes on another thread indicated that as early as 95, it was only the fraternity members that hazed.  But I'm curious about that.

At picnic and ranch day (the initiation "days") of Cowboys and Spurs, respectively, do the independents stand around gaping in horror while the frat guys abuse each other and animals?  Do only Kappa Sigs abuse Kappa Sigs?  Do the independents not go to those?  Or stay late?  I do know from my day that at "tap in," when the new men and rowels are initially selected, certain frats that had affinity for one another, would do tap in jointly (namely ATO and SAE back then), so maybe there's a "community of brutal hazing."  I dunno. Weird.

Edited March 28, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Gardner Barnes 1562]

We (Spurs) didn’t have a ranch day - however I was a rowel the fall after Gabe Higgins died.

Back then we had 2 or 3 independents (not including athletes) per Rowel class. So there just weren’t as many of them in the organization back then.

As for the hazing, as I said it was generally frat based and out of the purview of the master organization - specifically tap in and tap out. We were also encouraged to drink a shitload of beer at the Spurs concert out of our hats. All those things sucked.

It was worth it though - the tabs were fun as shit and there were so many fucking girls because the Cowboys were gone then. I had lots of the sex that fall and Spring

[TwiceHorn 31184]

2 minutes ago, Gardner Barnes said:

We (Spurs) didn’t have a ranch day - however I was a rowel the fall after Gabe Higgins died.

Back then we had 2 or 3 independents (not including athletes) per Rowel class. So there just weren’t as many of them in the organization back then.

As for the hazing, as I said it was generally frat based and out of the purview of the master organization - specifically tap in and tap out. We were also encouraged to drink a shitload of beer at the Spurs concert out of our hats. All those things sucked.

It was worth it though - the tabs were fun as shit and there were so many fucking girls because the Cowboys were gone then. I had lots of the sex that fall and Spring

Thanks.  One of the reasons I'm so interested is that my sophomore year, I pretty badly wanted to be a Spur, but through a series of unfortunate events, it didn't happen. I also had a number of friends that were Cowboys, so I picked up an inordinate amount of information.

[Huckleberry 32685]

I’m not defensive. I literally laughed to myself. You clearly never were in a fraternity or such group, because you just don’t know what you’re talking about. Things aren’t that black and white. But hey, you’re really sure of yourself. 

Yes, you're not defensive. You made that clear by pointing out that you laughed. Twice. Be sure to point it out a third time so it becomes even more clear you're not defensive.

Voluntarily joining a group where you know that a large portion of your social time will be consumed by group activities is voluntarily giving up some independence in exchange for a sense of camaraderie, team, and belonging to the group. You think the I in GDI was selected randomly?

The only one acting like there's something wrong with that decision is you by virtue of continuing to deny this is the case. Everyone makes this tradeoff at varying levels and frequency in their lives.

[KaiserSoze 997]

6 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Biting the head off a live hamster?  Okaaaaaay.....

 

6 hours ago, crash_davis said:

hazing?  shmmmeh.  to us cowboys, that's called Tuesday night.

 

Tuesday is when we eat the birds you fucking savage!

[Deej 76511]

Biting the head off a live animal is one thing, but if one of those kids ever pisses on the Alamo...

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

6 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Seems that there are simply different types of people in the world and one type will never understand the other.

Some people crave the feeling of belonging to a group and can't possibly understand how anyone could possibly not understand how fulfilling and important being a member of such a group is. Others reject the need to belong to a group and can't possibly understand how anyone could possibly put belonging to a group above self-determination in their life's priorities.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they're different and won't understand each other.

I know you're trying to be objective.

[Eastwood 4394]

5 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

I'm guessing the courts will tell us otherwise when the Cowboys lose the wrongful death lawsuit that is coming their way.  But keep telling yourself they didn't do anything wrong...

Yeah, the courts will decide if the Cowboys played a contributing factor in his death. However, hazing is strictly against UT's policies and rules and a ton of embarrassing hazing within the Cowboys has come to light due to the investigation surrounding the death. Sure, they aren't the only organization that hazes and hazing has been a part of college since the beginning of time, but the real number one rule with something like that is "don't get caught." The Cowboys can cry foul about the suspension all they want. They can point all the fingers around campus that they want. If you're going to haze, don't get caught. But now it is of public record that someone bit the head off of a live hamster. If you ask random students over the next six years who the Cowboys are, what do you think the most prevalent answer would be? If that isn't enough for the Cowboys to take a hard look inward and overhaul their culture, then they don't deserve to be on campus.

[AUS-97HORN 11654]

18 hours ago, Caddox said:

You have people in here blaming the cowboys alleged hazing activities for this kids death. It isn’t “tone deaf” to point out how ridiculous that is in light of the facts.  

keep doubling down with your head in the sand.... its a good look.   Let me guess in March of 2025 you are going to be leading the charge on West Campus to get the Cowboys re-instated for the what? 3rd? time in 30 years?  

As the University letter said, your organization didnt learn from the 1995 death, and the actions of your brethern directly caused the series of events leading to the accident that killed a member.

frankly they should have just fucking banned your asses from ever returning to campus.

[Caddox 952]

9 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

keep doubling down with your head in the sand.... its a good look.   Let me guess in March of 2025 you are going to be leading the charge on West Campus to get the Cowboys re-instated for the what? 3rd? time in 30 years?  

As the University letter said, your organization didnt learn from the 1995 death, and the actions of your brethern directly caused the series of events leading to the accident that killed a member.

frankly they should have just fucking banned your asses from ever returning to campus.

Yea that’s not what the letter says. We will let it die down and then appeal. 

[zork 629]

delete

Edited March 29, 2019 by zork

[Player 4575]

41 minutes ago, Caddox said:

Yea that’s not what the letter says. We will let it die down and then appeal. 

There's not a lot of time to "let it die down", as the clock is ticking on the deadline to file an appeal. I believe it's due within 14 days of receipt of the notice of violation. 

[ztejas 43244]

19 hours ago, relapse98 said:

The rules require occupants of vehicles to use seat belts.

That isn't a UT rule, that is a state law. 

18 hours ago, Player said:

3 seatbelts for 4 passengers

(interpreted that wrong - add 4 in a back seat for 3 as something any of them could have decided against)

Point being, you can argue the hazing contributed to the state of the driver, or that the org even encouraged them to drive home, but the lack of a small voice telling the driver to not get in the car and drive, and the decision for none of them to be wearing a seat belt is not something that should be laid at the org's feet. 

The/their hazing culture is clearly awful - and for the accident to happen on the way back from hazing activities undoubedtly worsens the situation - but in the case of this kid's death there is also a decided lack of accountability and personal responsibility. 

If your brother is too tired or mentally fatigued to drive don't let him drive. If your brother isn't wearing a seat belt tell him to put his fucking seat belt on. 

Maybe their fraternity is just as shitty and both of them should be kicked off campus - but in the context of that car at that time in the morning there is more at play than what they did or didn't do at a cowboy retreat. 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by ztejas

[Huckleberry 32685]

I know you're trying to be objective.

I am. I am also a person who has sacrificed self-determination for membership in a group. Apparently the difference is I'm not ashamed of it.