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Manchaca Road about to be Menchaca Road

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Paco

Paco 1934

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You're either trolling or you're actually the shitbag judge. Either way you are flat out making shit up.

Lol, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  That's ok hoss.  
 
All we know are the facts:
Both Seguin and Menchaca served and fought for Texas and rode from Austin to San Antonio thru present day Manchaca many times.    
For his service, Seguin was deeded land in the area and it was named after him.  
Menchaca was a captain to Seguin.
For his service, Menchaca was deeded land in the area.  
The deeds awarded to Menchaca misspelled his name Manchaca. 
The original name of the town in question, regardless of why, WAS Manchaca.  It was NOT named Manchac.
Later in 1850 Manchaca was bought and renamed Manchac.  No one really knows why but that provides documents supporting "Manchac".
In 1880 Manchac was bought back and renamed back to Manchaca in honor of Menchaca.   
Those are the facts.       
Given those, it seems obtuse to me to try and argue that the original reason for naming the area Manchaca was not because of Menchaca. Not only are there no facts to support the theory that the original name was Manchac but what little they have also has NO correlation to Texas history or the context of the time.  There's is the point that the word Manchac simply exists taken from a French word that describes a bayou in the Mississippi Delta.  jennlawrenceOK.gif
Your "facts":
Menchaca fought under Seguin in the Texas Revolution. True, but in 1835-36 there was no Austin, so I'm not sure where you get the notion that they rode between San Antonio and Austin many times. Pretty much everything was happening between San Antonio and Gonzalez.

Then Menchaca participated in the Runaway Scrape which, now follow along, never went anywhere near Austin or Manchaca.

After San Jacinto, Menchaca returned to San Antonio where he was a merchant and alderman. In 1842 he was given command over a frontier company that patrolled the area between San Antonio and the Rio Grande. If you will kindly reference a map, you'll notice that Austin, Manchaca, and Manchac springs are nowhere near this area. Are you keeping up?

Menchaca was deeded land, and his name was misspelled. True. But his land was in San Antonio, which... wait for it...is once again absolutely not in the Austin/Manchaca area. You keep saying that, and it's complete bullshit.

In September of 1842 Menchaca was wounded and captured by Mexican troops under General Woll. Upon his release he returned to civilian life and did not serve in a military capacity again.

In his memoir, Menchaca never mentioned the springs. If it was actually named for him, I think there's a possibility that he would have mentioned it. Or not, who knows.

Did Antonio Menchaca ride through the area many times? Possibly. Enough to make such an impression on the local population that they named the springs after him? Maybe. But the fact is the vast majority of Menchaca's military service was spent 100+ miles away, and most of that time the Austin area would not have been an important destination.
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RollLeft

RollLeft 5045

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46 minutes ago, Paco said:

Here's a map from 1849, before the evil racist William Pelham purchased the land and blatantly stamped out the Hispanic culture by dropping the "a". 59624981432a854d70c0ce7e255db715.jpg

 

Anything else you want to say, hoss?

 

Yeah, even the leader of the movement for Manchac admits this map says Manchaca.  Lol.      

Edited by RollLeft
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RollLeft

RollLeft 5045

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50 minutes ago, Paco said:

You're either trolling or you're actually the shitbag judge. Either way you are flat out making shit up.

Your "facts":
Menchaca fought under Seguin in the Texas Revolution. True, but in 1835-36 there was no Austin, so I'm not sure where you get the notion that they rode between San Antonio and Austin many times. Pretty much everything was happening between San Antonio and Gonzalez.

Then Menchaca participated in the Runaway Scrape which, now follow along, never went anywhere near Austin or Manchaca.

After San Jacinto, Menchaca returned to San Antonio where he was a merchant and alderman. In 1842 he was given command over a frontier company that patrolled the area between San Antonio and the Rio Grande. If you will kindly reference a map, you'll notice that Austin, Manchaca, and Manchac springs are nowhere near this area. Are you keeping up?

Menchaca was deeded land, and his name was misspelled. True. But his land was in San Antonio, which... wait for it...is once again absolutely not in the Austin/Manchaca area. You keep saying that, and it's complete bullshit.

In September of 1842 Menchaca was wounded and captured by Mexican troops under General Woll. Upon his release he returned to civilian life and did not serve in a military capacity again.

In his memoir, Menchaca never mentioned the springs. If it was actually named for him, I think there's a possibility that he would have mentioned it. Or not, who knows.

Did Antonio Menchaca ride through the area many times? Possibly. Enough to make such an impression on the local population that they named the springs after him? Maybe. But the fact is the vast majority of Menchaca's military service was spent 100+ miles away, and most of that time the Austin area would not have been an important destination.

You are so right.  I'm just glad i posted so that i could be proven so wrong.  

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RollLeft 5045

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1 hour ago, Paco said:

Why thank you. It looks like it was spelled both ways at the time. faf410cd6fc62a6b916749d5fe4ca788.jpg

Haha, because the newspaper never reports errors.  You sound like an Aggie defending their history.  Dude, just stop already.  You're gonna feel silly when you see the map of where Menchaca's land grant actually is.  Hint keeping looking in Hays County just up the road.  

No one is saying the name "Manchac" wasn't reported a handful of times in newspaper clippings.  Ask yourself this though.  Why was it called Manchac Springs to begin with?  Do you really believe it was named that because of a Choctaw word or better yet the French word for channel referencing a bayou on the Mississippi Delta?  Have you seen that huge ass body of water?  Also using your logic that thing is way more than 100 miles aways. Have you seen the springs in Manchaca?  Even if i showed you you'd barely be able to see what the fuck i was showing you.  That story just makes no sense. 

I can tell you're enjoying this so I'll give you some more historical homework.  Look up Kyle Field and see why it is named that and where the family is from and guess who's neighbor they are.   Shhhhh, you go to sleep now.  

Edited by RollLeft
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Paco

Paco 1934

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Do you mean these documents showing his land grant of 640 acres in Bexar county?

Haha, because the newspaper never reports errors.  You sound like an Aggie defending their history.  Dude, just stop already.  You're gonna feel silly when you see the map of where Menchaca's land grant actually is.  Hint keeping looking in Hays County just up the road.  
No one is saying the name "Manchac" wasn't reported a handful of times in newspaper clippings.  Ask yourself this though.  Why was it called Manchac Springs to begin with?  Do you really believe it was named that because of a Choctaw word or better yet the French word for channel referencing a bayou on the Mississippi Delta?  Have you seen that huge ass body of water?  Also using your logic that thing is way more than 100 miles aways. Have you seen the springs in Manchaca?  Even if i showed you you'd barely be able to see what the fuck i was showing you.  That story just makes no sense. 
I can tell you're enjoying this so I'll give you some more historical homework.  Look up Kyle Field and see why it is named that and where the family is from and guess who's neighbor they are.   Shhhhh, you go to sleep now.  
Just fucking stop. 85c4852803b82e353e337139e3addf8b.jpgbd03286b80b74ce764848e7cb8179295.jpg
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wood

wood 11225

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4 hours ago, RollLeft said:

Haha, because the newspaper never reports errors.  You sound like an Aggie defending their history.  Dude, just stop already.  You're gonna feel silly when you see the map of where Menchaca's land grant actually is.  Hint keeping looking in Hays County just up the road.  

No one is saying the name "Manchac" wasn't reported a handful of times in newspaper clippings.  Ask yourself this though.  Why was it called Manchac Springs to begin with?  Do you really believe it was named that because of a Choctaw word or better yet the French word for channel referencing a bayou on the Mississippi Delta?  Have you seen that huge ass body of water?  Also using your logic that thing is way more than 100 miles aways. Have you seen the springs in Manchaca?  Even if i showed you you'd barely be able to see what the fuck i was showing you.  That story just makes no sense. 

I can tell you're enjoying this so I'll give you some more historical homework.  Look up Kyle Field and see why it is named that and where the family is from and guess who's neighbor they are.   Shhhhh, you go to sleep now.  

- Manchaca Spring is probably less than a mile from Manchaca. When you refer to the Menchaca plot in the area, do you mean the Menchaca plot in NW Hays County, 20+ miles from Manchaca? I don't know of another one in Hays County. If there was one (and maybe there was, idk), where was it?

- "Manchac" is not of French origin. It's of Choctaw origin and then Louisiana French. And it doesn't indicate a body of water. It means "behind" or "to the rear".  "Bayou" also comes from the Choctaw "bayuk", but neither bayou or bayuk are in use in this case. In Pass Manchac, La., "Manchac" is Choctaw, not French, coming from the Choctaw that lived on the west side of Lake Maurepas. It refers to the 'rear entrance' of the lake.

- As for the springs being small, there are plenty of accounts of springs that are small now but were big, beautiful water holes in the past. Frederick Law Olmsted stopped at the Stagecoach stop there and wrote about the prominent Manchaca Springs. Manchac Springs was listed as a prominent stop on the stage route from Austin to SA, along with San Marcos and New Braunfels.

42901878_2039043276158300_27253004589177

Menchaca Plot, way out past Barton Creek in far NW Hays County:

43275639_2045383815524246_88929035478598

 

Menchaca Plot on the left, Manchaca on the right:

43083394_2045385122190782_22849388965779

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wood

wood 11225

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5 hours ago, Deej said:

Rename it Manshack. No one gives a fuck about the origins. It's been called that forever. Sorry for your white guilt. 

Yeah and I keep hearing that somehow the 'Manchaca racists' were running from a Mexican-sounding name to a Native American one to make it more palatable somehow. Yeah. OK.

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RollLeft

RollLeft 5045

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The Choctaw story is a more recent alternative trying to explain why the name might have changed or referenced differently.  It as you argue a dumb argument if it is to be believed it would be more palatable.  If those who argue the racist version that a Mexican name was unacceptable then it should be just as dumb to have a Native American name.  My point exactly.  Which is why they never talked about or even named it after a Choctaw word.  It is French by the way.  I'll let you do the legwork.  There is no more evidence or credence to that version than any other fabrication.  Again, you make my point for me.  

No one here really cares about the racist claims yet that seems to come up by some of you.  No one can know the motive of people then.  Who cares about that?  Why even bring it up?  Thats not even the argument here.  That is some theory by some judge.  It detracts from the facts and all the circumstantial evidence.  I think this is why many are being obtuse about it.  They just don't like being associated with "white guilt" and rewriting history due to racism.  This issue has little to do with any of that.  

The state misspelled a dudes name.  The town named for that dude, according to 95% of history prior to the issue arising, continued the misspelling.  The logic for the change is that the dude served his country and state so lets at least get his name right.  Thats it.  Even if that story is made up, though 95% of history says otherwise, why fight the honoring of that dude?  Cause of a Choctaw word that maybe it was named for.  Seems un-Texan to me.  How do you argue that?   

I agree that Perkins made a mistake by throwing that racism card out there.  I see now its the big detractor.  People would rather make that the issue.

That said, to believe the dumb Choctaw story is dumb.  LMFAO!  First i was told Manchac preceded Manchaca but that same person sends me a document showing Manchaca in 1946.  Then they argue he was no where near the spring but then someone sends me a map showing he lived in the county!!!!!  I mean it seems i could show you a fuckin picture of him pissing on "the" spring and you still would say its either not him or not "the" spring.  Again, LMFAO.

Anyway, to me the facts are that 95% of documents have always used Manchaca and later some reference Manchac Springs.  How you decide to name a town Manchaca when you meant the Choctaw Manchac is beyond me, but ok. 

Lstly, no one is arguing for the pronunciation change.  Man- chac  is what i call it and always will.  I'm hungry now i'm craving Manchaca Fire Hall fries.

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wood

wood 11225

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- We aren't the ones who brought up the racist angle. It was brought up by the people trying to get the name changed. You even said it might have been a 'slight' in your first post on the topic.  If Pelham had hated Mexicans the way some assert, why not simply change the name to anything he wanted rather than just dropping the 'a'? "Pelham" would have been an easy & common way to go, for example. Instead, he kept it as it already was at the time he bought the land.

- The origin of 'manchac' is not French. It's from the Choctaw 'imashaka'. Everywhere I look, that's what I find.

- I still haven't seen much evidence other than speculation and conjecture that Manchaca was named after a misspelled Menchaca. Not from anyone, esp you. Occam's razor makes it seem much more likely that the town was named after the spring less than a mile away rather than a war hero living on land 20 miles away on the other side of Dripping - unless he had closer land than that. Still haven't seen anything that suggests that, though. . That also explains the pronunciation of the town's name. You think its Man-shack pronunciation has nothing to do with the spring being right there and is merely  a mispronunciation of Menchaca? LOL. OK. Everywhere we look, the signs point to the town getting its name from the spring, not the guy 20 miles away. 

- It doesn't seem un-Texan at all to keep a Native American town name even if there was a war hero 20 miles away with a similar name. Texas, like much of the U.S., has Native American influences everywhere we look.

- I just want it to be gotten right, without jumping to some conclusion, watering down local history, and looking stupid. What I've seen so far tells me the name is already pronounced correctly and that if a re-spelling is needed, then the 'a' at the end needs to be dropped.

- The spring is in Travis County. The Menchaca plot (unless you know of another one as you seem to be hinting) was 20+ miles away in Hays County on the other side of Dripping, not in Travis County, and not even close to the Menchaca plot.

- The 'a' wasn't just suddenly added late in the history of Manchaca. It came and went on different documents and signs over the years ... likely a result of mixed use of and varying preferences for the different spellings and pronunciations of imashaka and manchac. 

- And finally ... why are you such a raging dick about this - or is that just how you always are?

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CycleTex87

CycleTex87 2970

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1 hour ago, wood said:

- The origin of 'manchac' is not French. It's from the Choctaw 'imashaka'. Everywhere I look, that's what I find

- The 'a' wasn't just suddenly added late in the history of Manchaca. It came and went on different documents and signs over the years ... likely a result of mixed use of and varying preferences for the different spellings and pronunciations of imashaka and manchac. 

- And finally ... why are you such a raging dick about this - or is that just how you always are?

Ask Shaka?  While he still works in Travis Co?

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Longhorn Al

Longhorn Al 440

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I've stayed out of this because I've been fighting this stupid judge and his BS for years.  But I have a life and could not keep up with the fight.

It's complete crap.  They have nothing other than to cry racism.  And they knew that would work in Austin.  It's pretty pathetic.

And Menchaca is NOT Spanish.  It is Basque.  It was originally spelled Mentxaka.  Let's just rename it that.  So to say Manchac (French) is wrong, but Menchaca (Spanish?) is right, is stupid.  The Basque region lies between both countries.  There are influences from both.

Was it named after an Indian word?  Was it named with French influence from settlers traveling from Louisiana?  Yes, that happened.  New Orleans to Galveston, and there are newspaper ads for wagon rides into Central Texas with a stop in Manchaca.  Some say it can mean "rear entry" or somesuch.  If you're coming up from the south, it's kind of like the backdoor to Austin.  There was a 1700s fort in Louisiana with the name Manchac.

There are many possibilities.  That's the point.  People like RollLeft say those arguments are all weak.  So is the case for Menchaca! It's all based on lore, not fact.

When both sides have relatively weak arguments, just leave it alone.  Go with local history.  They did this same BS when they changed Manchaca Elementary (named after the community) to Menchaca Elementary.  It was a PC move back then, and this is just the next step.

The city sent letters to the businesses along Manchaca Rd seeking support or opposition.  Of the responses they got back, people were overwhelmingly against the change.  City council didn't care. Why bother asking if you're just going to ignore your constituents anyway?

It's going to be really funny when Menchaca Road intersects with Old Manchaca Road, switches to Manchaca Road further south outside the city, ends in Mancahca, TX which has Manchaca Springs and Menchaca Elementary.  Seems very Austin.

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Helobious

Helobious 9454

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Maybe I didn’t grow up around enough whites, but I’ve very rarely heard it called the “Guadaloop” river. Most everyone I know says it somewhat correctly. And as a non-native Austiner pronouncing the street “Manchak” always sounded stupid as hell. As dumb as “Howston” (houston) street in NYC.

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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4 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Maybe I didn’t grow up around enough whites, but I’ve very rarely heard it called the “Guadaloop” river. Most everyone I know says it somewhat correctly. And as a non-native Austiner pronouncing the street “Manchak” always sounded stupid as hell. As dumb as “Howston” (houston) street in NYC.

Were not talking about the river. The river is correctly called the Guadalupe. We’re talking about the street. The street is called Guadaloop. 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23469

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11 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Maybe I didn’t grow up around enough whites, but I’ve very rarely heard it called the “Guadaloop” river. Most everyone I know says it somewhat correctly. And as a non-native Austiner pronouncing the street “Manchak” always sounded stupid as hell. As dumb as “Howston” (houston) street in NYC.

man-shack, burn-it, guadaloop.

 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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And just this morning I traveled down Bee CaveS Road (Bee Cave road) briefly got on Mopac (Loop 1) went down 1st street (Cesar Chavez), parked at the y and walked around Town Lake (Lady Bird Lake). 

I’m pretty convinced that the ultimate goal is just to fuck with the newcomers. 

Edited by JimmyJames
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Anastasis

Anastasis 23469

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2 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

And just this morning I traveled down Bee CaveS Road (Bee Cave road) briefly got on Mopac (Loop 1) went down 1st street (Cesar Chavez), parked at the y and walked around Town Lake (Lady Bird Lake). 

I’m pretty convinced that the ultimate goal is just to fuck with the newcomers. 

Bee cave is the city, bee caves is the area. mopac is mopac. 1st street i dont give a fuck. town lake will always be town lake. 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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5 minutes ago, Deej said:

Guess we need to burn it all down.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/the-problem-with-mirabeau-lamar/

Shit are we gonna have to rename Lamar now? That’s just gonna make the traffic even more fucked up than it is, which during afternoon rush hour is simply impassible. A guy I know from Chicago came in and I fucked up on our route and we got stuck in rush hour downtown traffic. He simply said, “It’s not moving at all?!”

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bolverk

bolverk 29675

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Y'all forgot San Jacinto, Mueller, Pedernales, Gruene, Koenig, Manor, Buda, Blanco, Llano, Refugio, and Elgin. They've all got fucked up pronunciations in the Texas dialect.

Edit: I forgot Salado, Mexia, Palestine, Lamesa, and an untold number of other places in this state.

Edited by bolverk
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