Mensa offense vs Big 12 defenses

[bigup2dahorns 3349]

Despite his better judgement, Sushihorn made the terrible decision to register here and doesn’t yet have enough posts to start a thread. So this is a placeholder. Please stand by for some wicked analysis.

[sushihorn 3258]

Reading the threads on Sam, the OL and Stoops’ firing got me thinking about the style of offense and culture that Tom Herman is instilling at Texas and the recent trends in Big XII defenses.  The top offenses in the conference have largely been spread passing attacks for years now and the defenses have clearly adapted to the offensive style.  Most defenses now feature base Nickel with multiple fronts featuring quick (and usually undersized) edge rushers to add to the pass rush.  Many of them are nominally LBs (usually SAM) but are the same size a run stopping SS used to be.  TCU’s Wallow (215 lbs) is fairly typical of this trend as was OU’s Striker a few years back.  The most extreme example is the Mountaineers’ Jovanni Stewart playing “SAM Linebacker” at 5’8” 191.

Until I started looking into this the quicker defenses were obvious but I had no idea how extreme the trend had become.  And it’s hardly confined to the second level of the defense.  The down linemen tend to be smaller and quicker for pass rushing purposes as well.  Everybody has a 300 lb space eater playing the nose but the fronts have gotten lighter, in many cases by shifting to a 3-3-5 with what are effectively a small LB and a DB playing the edge when they present a 5 man front.  Even teams that play 4 DL are using lighter players.  TCU goes 240-260-302-235 across their line.

All of this has been done to counter the spread passing game and honor the coverage responsibilities it forces on a defense.  But it’s not a great design against a power running attack complemented by an above average passing game.  Big XII DCs have not really had to worry about that on a regular basis for years now.  KSU has used this combination for decades but hasn’t had the talent to be a top team for a long time now.  ISU is moving in this direction but again they are not a team that is going to force anyone to redesign their defense yet.

That brings us to Texas.  The hard-nosed attitude and power running attack are the antithesis of the offenses that most Big XII defenses are currently designed to stop.  Aggressive penetration will often just open up a cutback lane or leave a gap undefended.  Stunting even more so.  It’s really not good for the defense when both of the primary ball carriers for Texas are as big or bigger than the guys that are trying to set the edge and contain the outside zone runs, to say nothing of the blockers they are trying to shed just to get to the runner.

At this point I don’t think the OL is good enough to dominate and abuse any defense in the conference.  There are still too many mistakes and a few weaknesses.  But they are definitely moving in that direction and they are certainly good enough to punish anyone who plays a light box to double or zone our WRs.  And with Sam running the ball 6 defenders is a light box against our 11 personnel sets.  The OL is now good enough to force teams to take major risks in coverage to stop the running game and most teams won’t be able to stop the short yardage conversions even by doing that.

As the OL improves, I expect to see opponents distorting their existing defenses more and more to stop the Texas ground game.  The problem they face is not just scheme but personnel.  They’ve been training and recruiting to defend quick, subtle and fast passing offenses.  Now they are looking down the barrel of an old school, smash mouth running offense and they have the wrong players to stop it.  In the SEC where such offenses are common, 3 man lines often average close to 300 lbs across the front.  One of the 4 LBs is usually a standup DE in the 260 lb range and most of the others go 230+.

Usually it pays off to go against the crowd.  I like what Tom Herman is doing with both culture and scheme.  And I especially like the dilemma that it puts DCs in all across the conference.

[Brock Sampson 289]

So in three years when all the defenses have caught up....BAM!....Mike Leach is the new OC and we're back to the spread.

[hornian 5299]

15 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Reading the threads on Sam, the OL and Stoops’ firing got me thinking about the style of offense and culture that Tom Herman is instilling at Texas and the recent trends in Big XII defenses.  The top offenses in the conference have largely been spread passing attacks for years now and the defenses have clearly adapted to the offensive style.  Most defenses now feature base Nickel with multiple fronts featuring quick (and usually undersized) edge rushers to add to the pass rush.  Many of them are nominally LBs (usually SAM) but are the same size a run stopping SS used to be.  TCU’s Wallow (215 lbs) is fairly typical of this trend as was OU’s Striker a few years back.  The most extreme example is the Mountaineers’ Jovanni Stewart playing “SAM Linebacker” at 5’8” 191.

 

Until I started looking into this the quicker defenses were obvious but I had no idea how extreme the trend had become.  And it’s hardly confined to the second level of the defense.  The down linemen tend to be smaller and quicker for pass rushing purposes as well.  Everybody has a 300 lb space eater playing the nose but the fronts have gotten lighter, in many cases by shifting to a 3-3-5 with what are effectively a small LB and a DB playing the edge when they present a 5 man front.  Even teams that play 4 DL are using lighter players.  TCU goes 240-260-302-235 across their line.

 

All of this has been done to counter the spread passing game and honor the coverage responsibilities it forces on a defense.  But it’s not a great design against a power running attack complemented by an above average passing game.  Big XII DCs have not really had to worry about that on a regular basis for years now.  KSU has used this combination for decades but hasn’t had the talent to be a top team for a long time now.  ISU is moving in this direction but again they are not a team that is going to force anyone to redesign their defense yet.

 

That brings us to Texas.  The hard-nosed attitude and power running attack are the antithesis of the offenses that most Big XII defenses are currently designed to stop.  Aggressive penetration will often just open up a cutback lane or leave a gap undefended.  Stunting even more so.  It’s really not good for the defense when both of the primary ball carriers for Texas are as big or bigger than the guys that are trying to set the edge and contain the outside zone runs, to say nothing of the blockers they are trying to shed just to get to the runner.

 

At this point I don’t think the OL is good enough to dominate and abuse any defense in the conference.  There are still too many mistakes and a few weaknesses.  But they are definitely moving in that direction and they are certainly good enough to punish anyone who plays a light box to double or zone our WRs.  And with Sam running the ball 6 defenders is a light box against our 11 personnel sets.  The OL is now good enough to force teams to take major risks in coverage to stop the running game and most teams won’t be able to stop the short yardage conversions even by doing that.

 

As the OL improves, I expect to see opponents distorting their existing defenses more and more to stop the Texas ground game.  The problem they face is not just scheme but personnel.  They’ve been training and recruiting to defend quick, subtle and fast passing offenses.  Now they are looking down the barrel of an old school, smash mouth running offense and they have the wrong players to stop it.  In the SEC where such offenses are common, 3 man lines often average close to 300 lbs across the front.  One of the 4 LBs is usually a standup DE in the 260 lb range and most of the others go 230+.

 

Usually it pays off to go against the crowd.  I like what Tom Herman is doing with both culture and scheme.  And I especially like the dilemma that it puts DCs in all across the conference.

 

Thanks for the post. I have a follow up question  

We have LSU, Alabama, Michigan, Arkansas (unless the reschedule for the 15th time), and Ohio State coming up as our big OOC games in the next 6-8 seasons. How does this kind of offense stack up against those types of defenses?

And in that vein, let’s assume for a moment we become a playoff contender in the next 6-8 years as well - how does this type of offense stack up against the Clemsons/Georgias/Notre Dames of the world?

[Poolflood 845]

Tl;dr

It's what ole butter teeth was looking for?

Pound yo momma and make her beg for mercy, type offense.... Just from a spread set?

 

[sushihorn 3258]

9 minutes ago, Poolflood said:

Tl;dr

It's what ole butter teeth was looking for?

Pound yo momma and make her beg for mercy, type offense.... Just from a spread set?

 

Probably but Mack had no idea how to get there.  His S&C guy was mediocre.  There was no real enforcer of cultural toughness on the offensive staff either.  Mack's best OLs always had leadership from the unit itself.  Think Kasey Studdard.  Herman is seriously OCD and he's instilling this with S&C, scheme and attitude in the whole team - not just the offense.  His comments on effort, work ethic and entitlement are nothing like the program under Mack.

[fellside 1136]

I don't think our run scheme or personnel is that different than other Big 12 offenses.  I definitely don't think power is unique to Texas' current staff.  Remember how Gilbert's Oline coach called power "momma" and whatnot.

We have a TE/HBack that is an elite blocker and we have a QB built to run between the tackles.  I would say that's unique, but I don't think the Ohio State offense is that drastic a change for defenses.

TCU and Kansas State held their own against us defensively.  I just think Texas is finally at the point where we have the talent on offense (Ehlinger, Ingram, Beck, Johnson, Humphrey, oline) to finally take advantage of the fact that we have vastly superior talent on defense.

[the idoit 165]

Not exactly, Pool. Mack wanted an overhaul. What we’re watching here is a hybrid of smash mouth inside power, gap cutbacks and sweeps combined with, wait for it, GDGD spread-the-field-laterally principles.

Regardless of how some of us may feel about Greg Davis strategy overall the guy knows football and has designed some truly innovative schematic tactics and matchups. Herman is absolutely a GD disciple and has said as much verbatim. What is surprisingly pleasant to me is: (1) how well (and quickly) it’s coming together due to EVERYONE buying in and continuing to improve, and (2) exploiting mismatches precisely how Sushi described it.

Welcome back, Sushi. Thanks for the insight.

[babysdaddy 2731]

5 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Probably but Mack had no idea how to get there.  His S&C guy was mediocre.  There was no real enforcer of cultural toughness on the offensive staff either.  Mack's best OLs always had leadership from the unit itself.  Think Kasey Studdard.  Herman is seriously OCD and he's instilling this with S&C, scheme and attitude in the whole team - not just the offense.  His comments on effort, work ethic and entitlement are nothing like the program under Mack.

where you been?

[sushihorn 3258]

47 minutes ago, hornian said:

Thanks for the post. I have a follow up question  

We have LSU, Alabama, Michigan, Arkansas (unless the reschedule for the 15th time), and Ohio State coming up as our big OOC games in the next 6-8 seasons. How does this kind of offense stack up against those types of defenses?

And in that vein, let’s assume for a moment we become a playoff contender in the next 6-8 years as well - how does this type of offense stack up against the Clemsons/Georgias/Notre Dames of the world?

For the SEC and B1G teams Herman's offense will not require much adjustment except in detail.  It has many similarities to what OhSt has been running or for that matter to what Alabama is moving towards.  Herman's offensive scheme won't give Texas any systemic advantage against them.  By the same token, the Texas D will be well prepared to face offenses that look like what they see in practice.

The primary impact here is on Big XII match ups since spread passing has become the dominant form of offense - especially among the better teams.

Edited October 8, 2018 by sushihorn

[Zavala 1384]

Auburn offensive line coach, Ohio State OC... It's the Smashmouth spread. I love it, especially with Sam at QB. If he was a better pocket passer I would say protect him and don't run him as much, but it doesn't seem to effect his passing. He has also gotten smarter on going out of bounds, sliding, and bulked up quite a bit to prevent him from gettin' hurt/injured.

I just wish they were capable of getting in a real goal line set, with Sam under center or maybe pistol. This gives the threat of the QB sneak, as well as the instant slant/bubble, because the first read in shotgun is actually catch the snap.

[sushihorn 3258]

39 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

where you been?

Focusing my OCD on something other than how much Texas Football sucked.  Mostly working on my website.

[CurlyDumps 4674]

Mack thought that posing for photos with his arms crossed and a tough guy look on his face would make Texas tough again.  That was his solution to fix our reputation of being soft.  A fucking PR campaign.

And then came Charlie the guidance counselor. His reputation of fielding hard-nosed, disciplined teams turned out to be a complete farce.

Nice to finally have a coach who is delivering on what he promised.  The opposite of what Charlie did.

[fellside 1136]

10 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

Mack thought that posing for photos with his arms crossed and a tough guy look on his face would make Texas tough again.  That was his solution to fix our reputation of being soft.  A fucking PR campaign.

And then came Charlie the guidance counselor. His reputation of fielding hard-nosed, disciplined teams turned out to be a complete farce.

Nice to finally have a coach who is delivering on what he promised.  The opposite of what Charlie did.

More accurately, I think he thought going under center occasionally would make him  tough again.

[RollLeft 5092]

7 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Focusing my OCD on something other than how much Texas Football sucked.  Mostly working on my website.

So you work in pron?

[Slacks 7100]

I'm just happy to have the Jenga back in the fold...

Been a while.

[Zavala 1384]

23 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Focusing my OCD on something other than how much Texas Football sucked.  Mostly working on my website.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, fellside said:

I don't think our run scheme or personnel is that different than other Big 12 offenses.  I definitely don't think power is unique to Texas' current staff.  Remember how Gilbert's Oline coach called power "momma" and whatnot.

We have a TE/HBack that is an elite blocker and we have a QB built to run between the tackles.  I would say that's unique, but I don't think the Ohio State offense is that drastic a change for defenses.

TCU and Kansas State held their own against us defensively.  I just think Texas is finally at the point where we have the talent on offense (Ehlinger, Ingram, Beck, Johnson, Humphrey, oline) to finally take advantage of the fact that we have vastly superior talent on defense.

I think it’s different in that conference spread attacks seem to run to space whereas we will run to blockers. Two different philosophies. This year’s RRS was the perfect dichotomy of those two trains of thought. 

Watch OU’s offense dispassionately and you’ll see how well designed it is and how easyily it gets its playmakers in space. We, otoh, seek extra blockers via our QB power package and don’t have a lot of gotcha in our design other than sucking up the occasional S or running Sam in five wide. 

Nothing wrong with either, but we are far, far closer to KSU’s model than to the Veer and Shoot. 

[maninblack 7975]

Welcome back

[kopp0e 1135]

1 hour ago, sushihorn said:

Reading the threads on Sam, the OL and Stoops’ firing got me thinking about the style of offense and culture that Tom Herman is instilling at Texas and the recent trends in Big XII defenses.  The top offenses in the conference have largely been spread passing attacks for years now and the defenses have clearly adapted to the offensive style.  Most defenses now feature base Nickel with multiple fronts featuring quick (and usually undersized) edge rushers to add to the pass rush.  Many of them are nominally LBs (usually SAM) but are the same size a run stopping SS used to be.  TCU’s Wallow (215 lbs) is fairly typical of this trend as was OU’s Striker a few years back.  The most extreme example is the Mountaineers’ Jovanni Stewart playing “SAM Linebacker” at 5’8” 191.

 

Until I started looking into this the quicker defenses were obvious but I had no idea how extreme the trend had become.  And it’s hardly confined to the second level of the defense.  The down linemen tend to be smaller and quicker for pass rushing purposes as well.  Everybody has a 300 lb space eater playing the nose but the fronts have gotten lighter, in many cases by shifting to a 3-3-5 with what are effectively a small LB and a DB playing the edge when they present a 5 man front.  Even teams that play 4 DL are using lighter players.  TCU goes 240-260-302-235 across their line.

 

All of this has been done to counter the spread passing game and honor the coverage responsibilities it forces on a defense.  But it’s not a great design against a power running attack complemented by an above average passing game.  Big XII DCs have not really had to worry about that on a regular basis for years now.  KSU has used this combination for decades but hasn’t had the talent to be a top team for a long time now.  ISU is moving in this direction but again they are not a team that is going to force anyone to redesign their defense yet.

 

That brings us to Texas.  The hard-nosed attitude and power running attack are the antithesis of the offenses that most Big XII defenses are currently designed to stop.  Aggressive penetration will often just open up a cutback lane or leave a gap undefended.  Stunting even more so.  It’s really not good for the defense when both of the primary ball carriers for Texas are as big or bigger than the guys that are trying to set the edge and contain the outside zone runs, to say nothing of the blockers they are trying to shed just to get to the runner.

 

At this point I don’t think the OL is good enough to dominate and abuse any defense in the conference.  There are still too many mistakes and a few weaknesses.  But they are definitely moving in that direction and they are certainly good enough to punish anyone who plays a light box to double or zone our WRs.  And with Sam running the ball 6 defenders is a light box against our 11 personnel sets.  The OL is now good enough to force teams to take major risks in coverage to stop the running game and most teams won’t be able to stop the short yardage conversions even by doing that.

 

As the OL improves, I expect to see opponents distorting their existing defenses more and more to stop the Texas ground game.  The problem they face is not just scheme but personnel.  They’ve been training and recruiting to defend quick, subtle and fast passing offenses.  Now they are looking down the barrel of an old school, smash mouth running offense and they have the wrong players to stop it.  In the SEC where such offenses are common, 3 man lines often average close to 300 lbs across the front.  One of the 4 LBs is usually a standup DE in the 260 lb range and most of the others go 230+.

 

Usually it pays off to go against the crowd.  I like what Tom Herman is doing with both culture and scheme.  And I especially like the dilemma that it puts DCs in all across the conference.

 

You realize, to Mike Stoops, this might as well be hieroglyphs...

[maninblack 7975]

Only thing I'd say, Sushi, is that Herman is not trying to emulate a SEC offense per se. He's a power spread coach. It's the reason he hired Hand away from Malzahn who is also a power spread coach. 

[Digdogger 1345]

50 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Focusing my OCD on something other than how much Texas Football sucked.  Mostly working on my website.

Your website really is revolutionizing the world of unrequited incestuous nephew/uncle love

[orange dream 1304]

Welcome back. Thanks.

[sushihorn 3258]

43 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

So you work in pron?

Asian pr0n more specifically.  It's an under served market.

[sushihorn 3258]

20 minutes ago, maninblack said:

Only thing I'd say, Sushi, is that Herman is not trying to emulate a SEC offense per se. He's a power spread coach. It's the reason he hired Hand away from Malzahn who is also a power spread coach. 

That's fair to the extent we are talking about top teams.  But they do see this type of attack in the SEC with MSU and (as you point out) Auburn.  The other members of the SEC at least see power run based spread and have defenses designed to stop power running if not run spread per se.  They require less adjustment to defend Texas than a defense playing a base nickel that is effectively a dime defense with a DB at SAM.

Edited October 8, 2018 by sushihorn

[Tex Pete 21557]

41 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I think it’s different in that conference spread attacks seem to run to space whereas we will run to blockers. Two different philosophies. This year’s RRS was the perfect dichotomy of those two trains of thought. 

Watch OU’s offense dispassionately and you’ll see how well designed it is and how easyily it gets its playmakers in space. We, otoh, seek extra blockers via our QB power package and don’t have a lot of gotcha in our design other than sucking up the occasional S or running Sam in five wide. 

Nothing wrong with either, but we are far, far closer to KSU’s model than to the Veer and Shoot. 

And by design, our offense will punish defenses. OU’s does not. 

[wood 11781]

2 hours ago, sushihorn said:

...they are certainly good enough to punish anyone who plays a light box to double or zone our WRs.  And with Sam running the ball 6 defenders is a light box against our 11 personnel sets.  The OL is now good enough to force teams to take major risks in coverage to stop the running game and most teams won’t be able to stop the short yardage conversions even by doing that.

As the OL improves, I expect to see opponents distorting their existing defenses more and more to stop the Texas ground game.  The problem they face is not just scheme but personnel.  They’ve been training and recruiting to defend quick, subtle and fast passing offenses.  Now they are looking down the barrel of an old school, smash mouth running offense and they have the wrong players to stop it.  In the SEC where such offenses are common, 3 man lines often average close to 300 lbs across the front.  One of the 4 LBs is usually a standup DE in the 260 lb range and most of the others go 230+.

Usually it pays off to go against the crowd.  I like what Tom Herman is doing with both culture and scheme.  And I especially like the dilemma that it puts DCs in all across the conference.

And when they start loading up against the run our huge and athletic AF WRs will be freed up even more to wreak havoc in the secondary where they create mismatches galore. Yeah, sign me up for that shit. Just wait til we get better on the OL and actually get good at running it...

Edited October 8, 2018 by wood

[Pato del Muerto 53633]

18 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Asian pr0n more specifically.  It's an under served market.

Hence the username

[sushihorn 3258]

50 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I think it’s different in that conference spread attacks seem to run to space whereas we will run to blockers. Two different philosophies. This year’s RRS was the perfect dichotomy of those two trains of thought. 

Watch OU’s offense dispassionately and you’ll see how well designed it is and how easyily it gets its playmakers in space. We, otoh, seek extra blockers via our QB power package and don’t have a lot of gotcha in our design other than sucking up the occasional S or running Sam in five wide. 

Nothing wrong with either, but we are far, far closer to KSU’s model than to the Veer and Shoot. 

Absolutely.  Seeking contact and punishing defenders is an important part of what Herman is doing.  That really shows results after 3 quarters of pounding if you can sustain drives.  I think of OU's offense as Aikido and Texas as Krav Maga

Edited October 8, 2018 by sushihorn

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

10 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Absolutely.  Seeking contact and punishing defenders is an important part of what Herman is doing.  That really shows results after 3 quarters of pounding if you can sustain drives.  I think of OU's offense as Aikido and Texas as Krav Maga

More like ranged combat versus hand to hand.

[Sejjr 3250]

More like a sniper rifle vs a sawed off shotgun. 

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

Just now, Sejjr said:

More like a sniper rifle vs a sawed off shotgun. 

Actually, that's pretty good. Because in the current Texas offense, a pass to the slot man can turn into a rugby scrum. And it's a thing of beauty.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

Sushi when you were talking about the offensive line and our ability to rush the ball, that's basically what I was saying on another thread about how the main thing holding back Sam as a passer is the offensive line. It's more than just "if we run better, there will be more open receivers", because the line needs to get better in pass pro too. 

30 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Absolutely.  Seeking contact and punishing defenders is an important part of what Herman is doing.  That really shows results after 3 quarters of pounding if you can sustain drives.  I think of OU's offense as Aikido and Texas as Krav Maga

Why ya gotta bring cloak room into it?

[Post Oak 20595]

After the first TD drive I told my wife ou was in trouble. They weren't going to be able to do anything against our WRs.  

She didn't care.

But i told her

 

[XYZ 2154]

Watching Texas this season, we don’t have burner speed, like you-are-not-gonna-catch-him speed, but both on the running game and especially on the passing game we have guys who are dragging defenders with them for several yards after initial contact. I like it. If we could get the o-line play from OK to good, watch out.

[TtomTerrific 200]

3 hours ago, sushihorn said:

Probably but Mack had no idea how to get there.  His S&C guy was mediocre.  There was no real enforcer of cultural toughness on the offensive staff either.  Mack's best OLs always had leadership from the unit itself.  Think Kasey Studdard .  Herman is seriously OCD and he's instilling this with S&C, scheme and attitude in the whole team - not just the offense.  His comments on effort, work ethic and entitlement are nothing like the program under Mack.

I have been in steadfast agreement with Mr. Studdard in that Tom Herman is one of the best (Kasey refers to him as THE best...and he might be correct) offensive coordinators in this game and have never doubted that he would put his mark on this offense to deliver us a team that played with his particular psychology. 

Identifying the quarterback power  as an advantage - from the 11 personnel package with the "extra hat" -  needed time, and still needs time, to mature.

The message board "Beck" bullshit has been lazy and shortsighted from the beginning....this is Tom's offense, Tom's culture and his quarterback to get this done.  Who is calling the plays on Saturday - plays that have been designed all year to install this effort - is a minute part of what is happening here...yes, that small part may have needed to be tweaked to gain maximum effectiveness, but the simpleness of "get rid of Beck" wasn't appreciating what Tom has been trying to get done here. 

We get him the speed he covets on the offensive side and continue to improve on the line, along with 2.5 more years of Sam and Ingram and this thing will be something to see.

[sushihorn 3258]

1 hour ago, wood said:

And when they start loading up against the run our huge and athletic AF WRs will be freed up even more to wreak havoc in the secondary where they create mismatches galore. Yeah, sign me up for that shit. Just wait til we get better on the OL and actually get good at running it...

This deserves some serious amplification.  I alluded to it in the OP but it was already long enough to draw tl;dr as it was.

Quote

But they are definitely moving in that direction and they are certainly good enough to punish anyone who plays a light box to double or zone our WRs.  And with Sam running the ball 6 defenders is a light box against our 11 personnel sets.  The OL is now good enough to force teams to take major risks in coverage to stop the running game and most teams won’t be able to stop the short yardage conversions even by doing that.

11 personnel gives us 7 blockers (5 OL, TE and RB) so a 6 man box not only allows us to put hat on hat but have a free blocker as well.  If defenses honor the threat, we've still got a blocker for every defender and one of them has to beat the block, get to the right spot then tackle Sam one on one.  And that leaves them with 4 to defend our 3 WRs.  Not many alternatives to man-free coverage at that point and that box allocation is far from guaranteeing a stop on the ground.  There's a good reason why PA passing on 1st down has been so effective.

Edited October 8, 2018 by sushihorn

[Zavala 1384]

2 hours ago, wood said:

And when they start loading up against the run our huge and athletic AF WRs will be freed up even more to wreak havoc in the secondary where they create mismatches galore. Yeah, sign me up for that shit. Just wait til we get better on the OL and actually get good at running it...

I miss Ricky

[JBJ 3830]

33 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

This deserves some serious amplification.  I alluded to it in the OP but it was already long enough to draw tl;dr as it was.

11 personnel gives us 7 blockers (5 OL, TE and RB) so a 6 man box not only allows us to put hat on hat but have a free blocker as well.  If defenses honor the threat, we've still got a blocker for every defender and one of them has to beat the block, get to the right spot then tackle Sam one on one.  And that leaves them with 4 to defend our 3 WRs.  Not many alternatives to man-free coverage at that point and that box allocation is far from guaranteeing a stop on the ground.  There's a good reason why PA passing on 1st down has been so effective.

Most teams in this scenario have gone Cover 6 to keep a safety over Duv.  This is why LJH can catch a simple curl and immediately be off to the races.

[tbone_ 14512]

This O reminds me of what Urban installed at Florida. I’m no expert, but I have watched a bunch of Gata games over the last 20 years as a function of being married to one.

 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

2 hours ago, Tex Pete said:

And by design, our offense will punish defenses. OU’s does not. 

Well sorta. Their offense punishes both defenses. It score points in bunches and gases their own.

Scoring more points than the other guy seems a viable way to win most games. It’s not as viscerally satisfying as imposing your will on other teams and leads to a lot of 55-30 kind of outcomes.

Conversely, playing teams ina phone booth leads to a lot of phone booth kind of scores. 

Herman’s offense, or rather his interpretation of the Urban Meyer offense, is fine and wins championships. I have no problem with it as long as he’s the one directing it. The hyper spreads have won conference championships and MNC’s too. 

I think that next year provides a great opportunity to see what this offense can do as we will have mature, experienced and talented players littering the offensive two deep. 2019 should be a breakout year. 

[ajax 2684]

3 hours ago, sushihorn said:

Absolutely.  Seeking contact and punishing defenders is an important part of what Herman is doing.  That really shows results after 3 quarters of pounding if you can sustain drives.  I think of OU's offense as Aikido and Texas as Krav Maga

I understand the approach. I just wish our team could actually close out strongly. I think that's the next step.

[TtomTerrific 200]

I really think those late holding calls after our long runs to close out the OU game affected this deal as much as the Murray 11 second score.

We closed out Kansas State pretty well at the end, not so well after the half.  Pretty sure Herman alluded to both of these situations today.

 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, tbone_ said:

This O reminds me of what Urban installed at Florida. I’m no expert, but I have watched a bunch of Gata games over the last 20 years as a function of being married to one.

 

This O is what Urban installed at Florida.  Herman was brought to OSU to run Urban's offense, took that playbook with him to UH and now uses it here.  

[sushihorn 3258]

1 hour ago, ajax said:

I understand the approach. I just wish our team could actually close out strongly. I think that's the next step.

They closed out USC and TCU very effectively.  Finished off KSU and OU well at the end but had an extended brainfart first.  But in all 4 cases they had a 4th quarter drive that drained most of the remaining clock to seal the deal.

[NoRagrets 1141]

6 hours ago, the idoit said:

Not exactly, Pool. Mack wanted an overhaul. What we’re watching here is a hybrid of smash mouth inside power, gap cutbacks and sweeps combined with, wait for it, GDGD spread-the-field-laterally principles.

Regardless of how some of us may feel about Greg Davis strategy overall the guy knows football and has designed some truly innovative schematic tactics and matchups. Herman is absolutely a GD disciple and has said as much verbatim. What is surprisingly pleasant to me is: (1) how well (and quickly) it’s coming together due to EVERYONE buying in and continuing to improve, and (2) exploiting mismatches precisely how Sushi described it.

Welcome back, Sushi. Thanks for the insight.

Ready to get negged, but in hindsight I was wrong about GDGD. He needed the support of his HC, O line coach and S&C coach.

[ApocalypseTexas 314]

Thank you to all who are posting here, feels so good to get this type of conversation going again just seems like it has been so long since anyone cared enough to give this much input.  Feels good to still be engaged 6 games into the season. 

[Dewey 3337]

Straight wear a defense out, everyone knows the play and still cant stop it. Began the season committed to a QB and a offense and stuck with it.

[hornian 5299]

2 minutes ago, Dewey said:

Straight wear a defense out, everyone knows the play and still cant stop it. Began the season committed to a QB and a offense and stuck with it.

One of the best VY quotes was when one of the linemen told him in the huddle the other team knew what play they were about to run. 

“So?”

[Lhorn 5107]

4 hours ago, TtomTerrific said:

I have been in steadfast agreement with Mr. Studdard in that Tom Herman is one of the best (Kasey refers to him as THE best...and he might be correct) offensive coordinators in this game and have never doubted that he would put his mark on this offense to deliver us a team that played with his particular psychology. 

Identifying the quarterback power  as an advantage - from the 11 personnel package with the "extra hat" -  needed time, and still needs time, to mature.

The message board "Beck" bullshit has been lazy and shortsighted from the beginning....this is Tom's offense, Tom's culture and his quarterback to get this done.  Who is calling the plays on Saturday - plays that have been designed all year to install this effort - is a minute part of what is happening here...yes, that small part may have needed to be tweaked to gain maximum effectiveness, but the simpleness of "get rid of Beck" wasn't appreciating what Tom has been trying to get done here. 

We get him the speed he covets on the offensive side and continue to improve on the line, along with 2.5 more years of Sam and Ingram and this thing will be something to see.

Where does one go to hear the thoughts of Mr Studdard? He got a podcast?