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Mensa offense vs Big 12 defenses

bigup2dahorns

By bigup2dahorns
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HOOK'EMHOOAH

HOOK'EMHOOAH 1606

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Posted
10 hours ago, Zavala said:

Auburn offensive line coach, Ohio State OC... It's the Spreadmouth smash. I love it, especially with Sam at QB. If he was a better pocket passer I would say protect him and don't run him as much, but it doesn't seem to effect his passing. He has also gotten smarter on going out of bounds, sliding, and bulked up quite a bit to prevent him from gettin' hurt/injured.

I just wish they were capable of getting in a real goal line set, with Sam under center or maybe pistol. This gives the threat of the QB sneak, as well as the instant slant/bubble, because the first read in shotgun is actually catch the snap.

Fify

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Tex Pete

Tex Pete 20184

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2 hours ago, Ehlinger4Heisman said:

Texas is #9 on College Football Today Top 25 Poll .

 

College Football Today Top 25

 
top25-0-0.jpg?1538367466
 
 
 
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Sam Ehlinger for Heisman Trophy - GO Longhorns!
ap17294638079816-1508795136-6232_orig.jp

 

Find out how we come up with our Top 25 & compare all three polls

 

 

College Football Today - 126 Government St, Mobile,Alabama,36602 

 

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You’re one ugly bitch. 

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troph

troph 24577

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Thank you to all who are posting here, feels so good to get this type of conversation going again just seems like it has been so long since anyone cared enough to give this much input.  Feels good to still be engaged 6 games into the season. 

Cosign
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SteelEER

SteelEER 117

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17 hours ago, sushihorn said:

Reading the threads on Sam, the OL and Stoops’ firing got me thinking about the style of offense and culture that Tom Herman is instilling at Texas and the recent trends in Big XII defenses.  The top offenses in the conference have largely been spread passing attacks for years now and the defenses have clearly adapted to the offensive style.  Most defenses now feature base Nickel with multiple fronts featuring quick (and usually undersized) edge rushers to add to the pass rush.  Many of them are nominally LBs (usually SAM) but are the same size a run stopping SS used to be.  TCU’s Wallow (215 lbs) is fairly typical of this trend as was OU’s Striker a few years back.  The most extreme example is the Mountaineers’ Jovanni Stewart playing “SAM Linebacker” at 5’8” 191.

 

Until I started looking into this the quicker defenses were obvious but I had no idea how extreme the trend had become.  And it’s hardly confined to the second level of the defense.  The down linemen tend to be smaller and quicker for pass rushing purposes as well.  Everybody has a 300 lb space eater playing the nose but the fronts have gotten lighter, in many cases by shifting to a 3-3-5 with what are effectively a small LB and a DB playing the edge when they present a 5 man front.  Even teams that play 4 DL are using lighter players.  TCU goes 240-260-302-235 across their line.

 

All of this has been done to counter the spread passing game and honor the coverage responsibilities it forces on a defense.  But it’s not a great design against a power running attack complemented by an above average passing game.  Big XII DCs have not really had to worry about that on a regular basis for years now.  KSU has used this combination for decades but hasn’t had the talent to be a top team for a long time now.  ISU is moving in this direction but again they are not a team that is going to force anyone to redesign their defense yet.

 

That brings us to Texas.  The hard-nosed attitude and power running attack are the antithesis of the offenses that most Big XII defenses are currently designed to stop.  Aggressive penetration will often just open up a cutback lane or leave a gap undefended.  Stunting even more so.  It’s really not good for the defense when both of the primary ball carriers for Texas are as big or bigger than the guys that are trying to set the edge and contain the outside zone runs, to say nothing of the blockers they are trying to shed just to get to the runner.

 

At this point I don’t think the OL is good enough to dominate and abuse any defense in the conference.  There are still too many mistakes and a few weaknesses.  But they are definitely moving in that direction and they are certainly good enough to punish anyone who plays a light box to double or zone our WRs.  And with Sam running the ball 6 defenders is a light box against our 11 personnel sets.  The OL is now good enough to force teams to take major risks in coverage to stop the running game and most teams won’t be able to stop the short yardage conversions even by doing that.

 

As the OL improves, I expect to see opponents distorting their existing defenses more and more to stop the Texas ground game.  The problem they face is not just scheme but personnel.  They’ve been training and recruiting to defend quick, subtle and fast passing offenses.  Now they are looking down the barrel of an old school, smash mouth running offense and they have the wrong players to stop it.  In the SEC where such offenses are common, 3 man lines often average close to 300 lbs across the front.  One of the 4 LBs is usually a standup DE in the 260 lb range and most of the others go 230+.

 

Usually it pays off to go against the crowd.  I like what Tom Herman is doing with both culture and scheme.  And I especially like the dilemma that it puts DCs in all across the conference.

 

In WVU’s defense, as I stated in a different thread, we have been crushed by injuries at the LB position and our LBs right now we’re safeties this past Spring. We are expected to get at least one starter back by November. IIRC both are in the 6’2” 230 range. Not exactly Levon Kirkland size wise,  but light years better than what’s out there now.

Dana has liked running it and our OL has the size, but our RB committee is not what it usually is. DL is always a challenge as it is for most “non-elite” programs. That’s why 2 of our starters are grad transfers.  The 3-3-5 works best when you have a NT around 6’2” and 330+ that cannot be budged by one blocker. We haven’t had that kind of NT in forever. 

 

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Eskimohorn

Eskimohorn 5616

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Ready to get negged, but in hindsight I was wrong about GDGD. He needed the support of his HC, O line coach and S&C coach.


GDGD needed overwhelming talent advantages against overmatched defenses. His let VY be VY and his Colt McCoy off-schedule plays are hardly innovative. They were done out of desperation.

From 1980 to 2003, none of those sorry-ass Texas offenses ever got shutout. In 2004, Greg Davis’ team got shutout with Vince Young and Cedric Benson against OU.

Greg Davis was average at best and got exposed at Iowa, then promptly got fired.
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sushihorn

sushihorn 3233

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In the OP I mentioned opposing DCs distorting their defenses in response to the Mensa offense.  On rewatch, that already happened in the OU game.  After Beck's catch on 3rd and 20, OU called a TO to get out of nickel and substitute in 3-4 personnel to defend on 4th and short.  After converting, we don't run tempo but we did get back to the line quickly.  OU can't substitute, which leaves their stand up DE Mark Jackson in coverage against Tre Watson on the wheel route.  Mismatch, fade to black.

This all occurs because Texas can run QB power from their base 11 personnel and OU can't defend it with their 3-3-5 base nickel defense.  They go big for short yardage and can't get back into their base afterwards.  Good play design but even better use of the clock situationally to keep OU in the wrong personnel package.

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Slacks

Slacks 6792

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From “useless turd we should fire today” to “imminent prophet of conference makeover” in one game.
This site has it all.
Well, in our defense, when up 21 then tied ...without a turnover... he was making it look like he should be fired. And that was in one quarter.

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sushihorn

sushihorn 3233

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11 hours ago, SteelEER said:

In WVU’s defense, as I stated in a different thread, we have been crushed by injuries at the LB position and our LBs right now we’re safeties this past Spring. We are expected to get at least one starter back by November. IIRC both are in the 6’2” 230 range. Not exactly Levon Kirkland size wise,  but light years better than what’s out there now.

Dana has liked running it and our OL has the size, but our RB committee is not what it usually is. DL is always a challenge as it is for most “non-elite” programs. That’s why 2 of our starters are grad transfers.  The 3-3-5 works best when you have a NT around 6’2” and 330+ that cannot be budged by one blocker. We haven’t had that kind of NT in forever. 

 

It wasn't a criticism so you don't need to defend anything.  It's a reasonable decision on the part of the WVU coaching staff based on the sort of offenses they face every week in the Big XII.  I don't know what the exact situation is in Morgantown but I suspect there were other LBs are campus.  Perhaps they weren't ready to assume coverage responsibilities yet.

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SteelEER

SteelEER 117

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1 hour ago, sushihorn said:

It wasn't a criticism so you don't need to defend anything.  It's a reasonable decision on the part of the WVU coaching staff based on the sort of offenses they face every week in the Big XII.  I don't know what the exact situation is in Morgantown but I suspect there were other LBs are campus.  Perhaps they weren't ready to assume coverage responsibilities yet.

No offense taken at all. Our depth at LB is just awful and our entire LB recruiting class of 2017 has been for shit. You can’t gutterball an entire recruiting class at LB and not feel the effects.

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HOOK'EMHOOAH

HOOK'EMHOOAH 1606

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8 hours ago, SteelEER said:

No offense taken at all. Our depth at LB is just awful and our entire LB recruiting class of 2017 has been for shit. You can’t gutterball an entire recruiting class at LB and not feel the effects.

We know that's right. There were entire years between mack and before charlie really started recruiting anyone worth a shit that didn't really pan out and it left Texas with basically no one to build anything around or with.

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Snotrocket

Snotrocket 108

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13 hours ago, Tired of Lurking said:

Andrew Beck was one of our 5 most important players of the game last weekend. Really happy for the guy.

Good call.  Beck was a monster Saturday.  He lined up in the backfield, slot, and TE.  He was a big reason those QB runs succeeded.  So glad we has him on our side and healthy.

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sushihorn

sushihorn 3233

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When Herman talked about how much his offense was limited by lack of a true TE last year I took it with a grain of salt.  Figured it was just one of those routine excuses coaches trot out for poor performance.  At the time I didn't realize just how literal-minded Herman is.

This year has absolutely made a believer out of me.  You can see Beck absolutely caving in the edge contain man on those QB sweep plays.  When he double teams with Cosmi, they are pushing DEs and OLBs so far back that the ILBs' pursuit lanes are cut off.  And we're seeing more key conversions on pass receptions by our TE than any time since David Thomas graduated.  It's hilarious to watch a LB "beat the block" only to realize he's let a 267 lb man beat him in coverage.

I've started listening to Herman a lot more carefully after realizing he's actually answering the question instead of giving a canned response like most coaches / IVR systems.

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Machinator

Machinator 32097

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7 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

When Herman talked about how much his offense was limited by lack of a true TE last year I took it with a grain of salt.  Figured it was just one of those routine excuses coaches trot out for poor performance.  At the time I didn't realize just how literal-minded Herman is.

This year has absolutely made a believer out of me.  You can see Beck absolutely caving in the edge contain man on those QB sweep plays.  When he double teams with Cosmi, they are pushing DEs and OLBs so far back that the ILBs' pursuit lanes are cut off.  And we're seeing more key conversions on pass receptions by our TE than any time since David Thomas graduated.  It's hilarious to watch a LB "beat the block" only to realize he's let a 267 lb man beat him in coverage.

I've started listening to Herman a lot more carefully after realizing he's actually answering the question instead of giving a canned response like most coaches / IVR systems.

 

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BigBenBamboozle

BigBenBamboozle 1950

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One of those absolutely sneaky-important plays last Saturday was Beck's great snag over the middle on a third-and-long to set up the fourth and short conversion.  It was early in the game and helped Texas take momentum.  All hands, too, and had the skill to keep a hand under the ball going to the ground.  He's really made strides since Tulsa, especially on the blocking front.

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bejezuz

bejezuz 329

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On 10/8/2018 at 8:09 PM, TtomTerrific said:

I really think those late holding calls after our long runs to close out the OU game affected this deal as much as the Murray 11 second score.

We closed out Kansas State pretty well at the end, not so well after the half.  Pretty sure Herman alluded to both of these situations today.

 

Herman diagnosed this problem as the offense failing to execute with a slower tempo during his press conference on Monday.  I think this is a good way to look at it, given that Sam and the O-Line tend to function best when the tempo is higher.  Hopefully we'll have more time to work on getting better playing with a lead as the season goes on.    

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hornian

hornian 5205

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23 hours ago, BigBenBamboozle said:

One of those absolutely sneaky-important plays last Saturday was Beck's great snag over the middle on a third-and-long to set up the fourth and short conversion.  It was early in the game and helped Texas take momentum.  All hands, too, and had the skill to keep a hand under the ball going to the ground.  He's really made strides since Tulsa, especially on the blocking front.

I don't know if I'd call that "sneaky-important" - Herman identified it as one of the plays of the game (the other being the LJ third and long screen play that picked up ~18 yards), and I've seen lots of posters talking about it.

Believe it or not, and you may not beleive it based on the last decade of Longhorn internet fandom, there are actually quite a few "football smart" fans/posters who understand the game within the game. That play was not under appreciated. 

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JBJ

JBJ 3649

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1 minute ago, Valmy77 said:

What I liked about that play is Beck signalling first down when he got the catch. I couldn't tell if he simply forgot where he was on the field, but I like to think he understood that it was set up to convert the next play.

He was trying to convince the linesman.

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TheRRKid

TheRRKid 227

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On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:08 AM, sushihorn said:

When Herman talked about how much his offense was limited by lack of a true TE last year I took it with a grain of salt.  Figured it was just one of those routine excuses coaches trot out for poor performance.  At the time I didn't realize just how literal-minded Herman is.

This year has absolutely made a believer out of me.  You can see Beck absolutely caving in the edge contain man on those QB sweep plays.  When he double teams with Cosmi, they are pushing DEs and OLBs so far back that the ILBs' pursuit lanes are cut off.  And we're seeing more key conversions on pass receptions by our TE than any time since David Thomas graduated.  It's hilarious to watch a LB "beat the block" only to realize he's let a 267 lb man beat him in coverage.

I've started listening to Herman a lot more carefully after realizing he's actually answering the question instead of giving a canned response like most coaches / IVR systems.

He answers most questions honestly.  It's refreshing, but I think he would benefit from using coach-speak at times. 

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LTtxfan

LTtxfan 48999

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Posted (edited)
On 10/8/2018 at 7:41 PM, tbone_ said:

This O reminds me of what Urban installed at Florida. I’m no expert, but I have watched a bunch of Gata games over the last 20 years as a function of being married to one.

 

 

Ole Urban getting criticism for lack of red zone success because his starting QB can't run so not a match for Urban's Offense..... SOUNDS FAMILIAR .....reminder of difference of Sam vs Shane starting

 

"Offensively, the Buckeyes have lost their identity running the football. Meyer’s teams at Ohio State never had a run-pass split where the team didn’t rush the ball at least 100-plus times more than it threw it. This year, the Buckeyes are passing the ball on 52.1 percent of their offensive snaps.

That makes sense given that Dwayne Haskins is under center. Haskins, who some already consider NFL ready, is putting forth record-smashing passing statistics. But Ohio State can’t run the ball. Despite the presence of a pair of 1,000-yard rushers, the Buckeyes are averaging 4.36 yards a carry, which ranks 66th nationally. The Buckeyes have never ranked worse than 20th in that category under Meyer.

To Biddle there’s a simple explanation.

Meyer's baby is the power spread and zone read and he just refuses to divorce from those principles despite a quarterback who doesn't fit those strengths. For all Haskins' passing abilities, he’s far from a rushing threat while averaging 1.6 yards per carry. To operate the zone read, opponents must respect a quarterback’s ability to keep the football. Haskins simply isn’t fleet nor does he run enough for defenses to respect that option.

That lack of balance hurts Ohio State in the red zone. The Buckeyes failed to convert time and again against Purdue, and that’s a trend. Ohio State sits 117th nationally in red-zone scoring percentage.

“I think Dwayne Haskins is a fish out of water running the zone read,” Biddle said. “It’s like a fake version of the zone read, window dressing. That’s Urban’s bread and butter. They’re still lining up like they’re running the zone read. But it’s not really the zone read, hence the name the zone read. It’s reading the defensive end or whatever his key is and deciding after the snap. They’re not doing any of that.

“Good coaches find a way to adjust their scheme to the strengths of their players. Urban’s not doing that this year even though he’s done it in the past.”

Edited by LTtxfan
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