Non-voter indifference

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

Since most of us on this board care about politics or how we're governed, I have to guess that everyone here (both sides) has trouble understanding how there can be so many citizens that are indifferent to elections.  Is it that they don't care to learn?  They think their vote doesn't matter?  what is it?

When I was getting ready for work today, the following story was on the Today Show.  The college kid starting at the 2:45 mark doesn't even seem to think it's a concern that he doesn't vote or know any political issue.  It's like he relishing his ignorance.   https://www.today.com/video/california-midterms-democrats-target-orange-county-1339931203698?v=railb&

I guarantee this kid knows more about upcoming Fortnite updates, who was featured on the last Drake single, and I will give him the benefit that he knows about his classes.   But how /when/who on registering or voting, he has no idea.  

And it's not just younger people.  I have a friend that is very successful:  45, great dad,  great friend, life of the party, earns a good living with a major company.  He may be able to say that Ted Cruz is our senator.  I would bet $1000 he has never heard of John Cornyn.  He could probably tell you the backup RB for every NFL team.  Fantasy football is serious stuff.  I don't think he's ever voted in his life.  He's told me that he doesn't know anything about political issues so he sits out.  

You would think that some people would at least decide on a single issue that matters to them, and just discover how their candidates feel about that: economy, abortion, immigration, crime, healthcare, LGBT rights, whatever.    Instead they accept life as it's presented to them.   Very confusing to me.

[David Dennison 18851]

A lot of folks don't care because they don't see much difference between the parties. They believe that no matter which party holds power, it won't affect them much. Whether they know it or not, a lot of that has to do with the fact that both parties are capitalist parties. There is no viable alternative for people who want to challenge capital's grip on the American worker.

So most people just accept their fate and check out.

[bernorange 8359]

Do you remember 2007/2008?  I remember.

"Ron Paul cured my apathy" was a common saying.  There is a large swath of people who lean libertarian who don't see any home in either of the two major political parties which have a vice grip on the rules of the game which prevent anyone else from playing.  Without a real champion to rally around, they seem to have gone dormant again.

Aside from that, there is a culture of selfishness and entitlement that reigns in this country.  As much as people like to bitch about things, by and large, people are content with their lot.  When the doors of opportunity close, apathy ends although that's usually with a disorderly conclusion.

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

A lot of folks don't care because they don't see much difference between the parties. They believe that no matter which party holds power, it won't affect them much. Whether they know it or not, a lot of that has to do with the fact that both parties are capitalist parties. There is no viable alternative for people who want to challenge capital's grip on the American worker.

So most people just accept their fate and check out.

Maybe they don't see a difference because they don't bother looking.  Or bother learning how this affects them.  The cost and regulation of healthcare plans, education, viability of social security or medicare, income taxes.    These are all questions that need answers or opinions.   

If you're on the extremes, I can see how the two parties seem about the same.  However if you're in the 80% in the middle, there are differences.  Some are major.   

For some people it does seem like they're cool or proud to be moving towards Idiocracy.  

[Fozzz 152]

The US has low voter turnout compared to other developed countries because we intentionally choose to raise barriers to voting as a way of maximizing the electoral power of old rich conservatives.  

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

4 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

The US has low voter turnout compared to other developed countries because we intentionally choose to raise barriers to voting as a way of maximizing the electoral power of old rich conservatives.  

I agree that voter suppression is a real problem.  However there are more people that don't care about voting.    Even in states where voting is made much easier than Texas, participation is low.   

but there is already a thread on voter suppression so we can leave that discussion over there.

[lemonlime 5503]

I also think gerrymandering has a lot to do with it.  Most congressional races are not competitive.  

Hell, I follow politics closely and always vote, and I'm really apathetic about voting this year.  My (dem) congressman is an incumbent who essentially inherited the seat from his father and is running unopposed.  And I have a choice between two horrible candidates for the senate (Menendez vs. a Trumpublican).   I'm far more interested in other races than the ones I can vote in.  I can't imagine what would push someone in my district who maybe doesn't have a car or needs to get an absentee ballot to make any effort.

[NowThis 931]

Life is pretty good regardless of who controls the government. How many people know the governor, mayor, city council members, state rep, state senator, congressman or senator? How many can name the VP of the US, or even more than 2 SCOTUS?  It's the Jay Leno show for a big chunk of people outside of POTUS

[bernorange 8359]

http://www.electproject.org/national-1789-present

 

[Dropout 355]

I’ll agree with the sentiment that some do not see much difference between the two parties.

I’ll also add upbringing. When your raised to not care about voting or in a family that has never voted it is normal to not vote. It’s almost like it doesn’t exist. Like anything else your taught or see from a young age it takes awhile to break the mold.

The electoral college as far as voting for POTUS. Living in fucking Texas it’s easy to say why waste your time. It’s going to be red anyway. Like Clinton will win Texas. If you don’t vote for President the rest seems easy to skip out on. I used to think moving was the answer. Now I’d like to help turn Texas blue.

OP hits close to home. No interest in voting until recently. Thanks Trump. Why I believe this almost had to happen. He has awakened a generation of voters who despise him. Guess what that generation will teach their kids. So everyone get your fill of libtears now. There will be a left wing President again someday who will wield all this power the current GOP has allowed.

[David Dennison 18851]

9 minutes ago, NowThis said:

Life is pretty good regardless of who controls the government. How many people know the governor, mayor, city council members, state rep, state senator, congressman or senator? How many can name the VP of the US, or even more than 2 SCOTUS?  It's the Jay Leno show for a big chunk of people outside of POTUS

This is not true for tens of millions of people in this country.

[Js1 85291]

12 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I agree that voter suppression is a real problem.  However there are more people that don't care about voting.    Even in states where voting is made much easier than Texas, participation is low.   

but there is already a thread on voter suppression so we can leave that discussion over there.

[seven 1367]

I think some people are just naturally interested in politics and "the game". The game turns a lot of people off, but (obviously) cloakroom types love it. I only know a few people, personally, that get into it like I do

 

Then you have a lot of people that are just busy with life, try to stay informed but there is only so much time in a day. This is the vast majority of both voters and non-voters. And unless you are part of a marginalized population, for the most part the difference between republican control and democrat control is nearly nonexistent in your daily life. Though, anecdotally, trump has gotten a lot of my sporadically voting acquaintances to register for the midterms.

Lastly, the electoral college really discourages a lot of people from voting. People know which way their state will go so why bother? Yes, there are plenty of other races, but everyone knows which race is the one that gets all the attention. 

[NowThis 931]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This is not true for tens of millions of people in this country.

but is for the vast majority

[Nice Guy Eddie 13509]

23 minutes ago, bernorange said:

http://www.electproject.org/national-1789-present

 

Were the mid-to-late 1800s higher voting rates due to the issues leading up and after the Civil War, and then they plunged to the consistent rates that we see now?

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

A couple of CSBs:

My guitar teacher also teaches at community college.  They had a registrant come in on the national "get off your ass and vote" day a few weeks ago.  He was astonished at how some of the college kids refused even to register with the excuse of the just didn't know shit about politics.

I too was an apathetic voter, exercising my rights only a few times in the last 32 years of eligibility-and then only in school board elections.  Current admin has changed that for me.  But I wonder how much of my concern is just me becoming old and wanting to vote.

[RDCanecutter 26398]

17 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Were the mid-to-late 1800s higher voting rates due to the issues leading up and after the Civil War, and then they plunged to the consistent rates that we see now?

It's not comparing same-to-same to compare 1850 to 1950 to 2000. The 1850 voters are all dudes of whiteness. 1950 has got women. 2000 has got 18-year-olds.

People talk about how low Latino turnout can be. I don't know why that is, but this is Surly so I'm gonna keep flapping my yap anyway-- suppose your parents or grandparents came to the US from farther south in some country where they have had splendid slogans and rampant graft for centuries, you might be a US citizen but I could see why you'd still be low on the trust scale that it'll be any different here.

Another thing-- I bet a lot of that old data was bogus.

As to the larger question of why people may not vote, I could totally agree with your program while being completely skeptical of your ability to carry it out. You give me a suit vs a suit, all I see is Suit's Gonna Win then all Suits Friends Gonna Get Jobs. And I probably vote more than average, if only to deny no-show jobs to incumbents and adults with children's nicknames.

[formermav43 4606]

I do not vote. I have theological convictions that inform that decision that aren’t really relevant to this thread because they aren’t on the radar of the general non-voter.

It’s difficult at this point, but leave Trump out of things for a second. He’s his own thing and I admittedly don’t understand how any rational person could support him. And I can see how he changes the situation for some.

But, in general, as someone who only follows politics as an observer, I don’t see any substantial differences in the two parties. Oh, I know what they claim. Republicans rail against spending-until they are the ones spending. Democrats are against war-until their guy is in office. Most of the actual differences seem to be on the margins-in the big picture, it’s meet the new boss, same as the old boss. 

What’s most interesting or frustrating or absurd, I’m not sure, is the way cloak room types pull for their team and justify their tactics while railing against the dirty politics of the other. Even though they’re both playing dirty, because it’s not really about means, it’s about winning. We can justify anything if we feel morally superior to the opposition. 

To outsiders, the game itself is sick. 

[relapse98 634]

1 hour ago, formermav43 said:

I do not vote. I have theological convictions that inform that decision that aren’t really relevant to this thread because they aren’t on the radar of the general non-voter.

You can't just throw that out there. Huh?

[formermav43 4606]

Just now, relapse98 said:

You can't just throw that out there. Huh?

That’s pretty much why I just threw it out there. It forms my own decision not to vote, so I needed to state it. But I don’t really have an interest in getting into a long winded explanation or debate.

Read up on the Anabaptists if you’re genuinely interested and you’ll have an idea of where I’m coming from. 

[Larry T. Spider 1746]

1 hour ago, formermav43 said:

That’s pretty much why I just threw it out there. It forms my own decision not to vote, so I needed to state it. But I don’t really have an interest in getting into a long winded explanation or debate.

Read up on the Anabaptists if you’re genuinely interested and you’ll have an idea of where I’m coming from. 

I read up on why they don’t vote and it’s the stupidest thing I’ve read in a while. You are part of a religious group that was historically persecuted and you don’t think voting might be important to avoid that in the future?? You don’t think the groups being persecuted or banned from our country based on their religion might need somebody to stand up for them in the ballot box? These are the days of kiddie jails but we will just pray about it.....JFC.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Larry T. Spider

[formermav43 4606]

23 minutes ago, Larry T. Spider said:

I read up on why they don’t vote and it’s the stupidest thing I’ve read in a while. You are part of a religious group that was historically persecuted and you don’t think voting might be important to avoid that in the future?? You don’t think the groups being persecuted or banned from our country based on their religion might need somebody to stand up for them in the ballot box? These are the days of kiddie jails but we will just pray about it.....JFC.

I never said I was an Anabaptist. I said understanding their perspective (which you obviously don’t, for the record) might give someone an idea of where I’m coming from.

I also expected that type of response and have no interest in a debate, which is why I didn’t go into more detail. And I don’t really intend to discuss it further.

[seven 1367]

7 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I never said I was an Anabaptist. I said understanding their perspective (which you obviously don’t, for the record) might give someone an idea of where I’m coming from.

I also expected that type of response and have no interest in a debate, which is why I didn’t go into more detail. And I don’t really intend to discuss it further.

Thanks for posting about it at least. I had never heard of a theological reason for not voting. 

[Dropout 355]

3 hours ago, formermav43 said:

I do not vote. I have theological convictions that inform that decision that aren’t really relevant to this thread because they aren’t on the radar of the general non-voter.

It’s difficult at this point, but leave Trump out of things for a second. He’s his own thing and I admittedly don’t understand how any rational person could support him. And I can see how he changes the situation for some.

But, in general, as someone who only follows politics as an observer, I don’t see any substantial differences in the two parties. Oh, I know what they claim. Republicans rail against spending-until they are the ones spending. Democrats are against war-until their guy is in office. Most of the actual differences seem to be on the margins-in the big picture, it’s meet the new boss, same as the old boss. 

What’s most interesting or frustrating or absurd, I’m not sure, is the way cloak room types pull for their team and justify their tactics while railing against the dirty politics of the other. Even though they’re both playing dirty, because it’s not really about means, it’s about winning. We can justify anything if we feel morally superior to the opposition. 

To outsiders, the game itself is sick. 

The way I see it why worry about teams or winning. You have ideals and vote according to who best matches up. I’m not worried about the reasons anyone else is voting. No one will ever be 100% but do the best you can. Until we get to a point where every individual has a vote on every issue there is nothing else you can do.

The game is sick and I largely agree with your assessment of it. I just know you can’t change anything sitting it out. I don’t pretend to know the workings of God and perhaps everything has to happen for a reason. I would like to think what’s happening in the world today is more like hell than heaven.

If it’s something to do with God the reason you’re not interested in voting well that’s an argument to never be won. I can see the point of view that decisions have already been made by God. As Bob Marley would say “we’ve got to fulfill the book.” I can also see the point of view that God put you on this Earth to make a difference the way you see fit. I obviously don’t know your point of view just throwing darts in the dark after a 5 min read of Anabaptists.

At the end of the day nobody knows anything. End rant.

[formermav43 4606]

45 minutes ago, seven said:

Thanks for posting about it at least. I had never heard of a theological reason for not voting. 

You’re welcome. As far as not hearing of it, while it’s not widely held, disengagement from politics isn’t THAT uncommon a view in Christian history. I gave the Anabaptists as an easy example, because they’ve probably given this the most thought and written most extensively on it (Mennonites, Amish, and others-and there’s a spectrum of views here, I don’t want to imply that no Anabaptists vote, it’s about an orientation toward the world).

But you can find this inclination among many of the Church Fathers. Most of the early leaders of the Stone-Campbell or Restoration Movement (which spawned churches of Christ, Christian Churches, and the Disciples of Christ) held similar views, even if later generations largely abandoned them. The Brethren and Jehovah’s Witnesses too. There’s more, but that’s off the top of my head.

Edited October 9, 2018 by formermav43

[scottsins 1966]

Do Anabaptists get their children vaccinated?

[Anastasis 23463]

3 minutes ago, scottsins said:

Do Anabaptists get their children vaccinated?

Do Anabaptists have objections to vaccinating with attenuated viruses cultured in cell lines derived from aborted fetal tissue?  Sounds like more of a jehovahs witness thing.  

[Biff Tannen 45665]

Feels like Nihilists would fit this mold the best.

[formermav43 4606]

9 minutes ago, scottsins said:

Do Anabaptists get their children vaccinated?

I neither know nor care.

[Anastasis 23463]

Quick search tells me that the primary religious objections are the Dutch Reformed (of course, the fn Dutch) and Christian Scientists. I apologize to the jehovah's witnesses. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Anastasis

[Kyle 207]

I can only speak for me, but I echo sentiments of some others around apathy. I am a Poli Sci major and politics traditionally has been a big part in my life. I used to love debating an discussing issues, and because I am an independent moderate, I usually could have fun engaging folks on both sides of the isle.

Personally, the tone has become filled with so much hyperbolic hate that it is just not fun anymore. I do not get emotional around politics - I am analytical by nature and like for the numbers to drive the conversation; but as an example this board is 99% emotional screeds so set in a bias that conversation is virtually impossible. In addition, sources of information have all come out of the closet in terms of feigning objectivity, so it is even hard to find decent sources of data without spin. I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but I need more than simpleton talking points that lack nuance and factual basis.

On top of that, we've become so tribal that principles and issued do not seem to matter - basically whatever T-shirt the person is wearing describes whether 99.99% agree or disagree. I mean, is it the ultimate Bizarro World that we liberals want to suspend due process and bemoan the U.S. is no longer a superpower while conservatives are supporting tariffs and trade wars? It just seems like neither party really has any principles anymore outside the culture war and individuals change positions based on who is supporting or opposing something.

Okay. Rant over. I do miss the days of discussing principled politics over Marlboro Reds and cheap whiskey, but the Internet has pretty much turned everyone into know-it-all donkeys that believe Socratic debate is screaming louder than the other guy and calling her more outlandish names.

[Anastasis 23463]

24 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Okay. Rant over. I do miss the days of discussing principled politics over Marlboro Reds and cheap whiskey, but the Internet has pretty much turned everyone into know-it-all donkeys that believe Socratic debate is screaming louder than the other guy and calling her more outlandish names.

How do you feel about Virginia Slims in a real pinch?

[Kyle 207]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

How do you feel about Virginia Slims in a real pinch?

About as far as I get to that is Marlboro menthol 100s.

[Anastasis 23463]

Just now, Kyle said:

About as far as I get to that is Marlboro menthol 100s.

You are 80% of the way there. 

[Kyle 207]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You are 80% of the way there. 

Agreed, but I feel better about myself. (calm down fascists, #nosexist)

[Anastasis 23463]

33 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Agreed, but I feel better about myself. (calm down fascists, #nosexist)

Why are you judging me?

[jettrink 40]

Haven't voted in many moon.  But I will this year, for the first time ever as a republican.

Edited October 10, 2018 by jettrink

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

The answer to OP’s question, as evidenced on this thread, is that people are lazy and stupid. 

[formermav43 4606]

6 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

The answer to OP’s question, as evidenced on this thread, is that people are lazy and stupid. 

Everyone! Come quick! Hank Scorpio is back doing his bit again! Why yes, it IS as tired as usual.

 

 

Did I do that right?

[NameWithHeld 101]

9 hours ago, David Dennison said:

This is not true for tens of millions of people in this country.

But the other 320 million?

 

10 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Since most of us on this board care about politics or how we're governed, I have to guess that everyone here (both sides) has trouble understanding how there can be so many citizens that are indifferent to elections.  Is it that they don't care to learn?  They think their vote doesn't matter?  what is it?

When I was getting ready for work today, the following story was on the Today Show.  The college kid starting at the 2:45 mark doesn't even seem to think it's a concern that he doesn't vote or know any political issue.  It's like he relishing his ignorance.   https://www.today.com/video/california-midterms-democrats-target-orange-county-1339931203698?v=railb&

I guarantee this kid knows more about upcoming Fortnite updates, who was featured on the last Drake single, and I will give him the benefit that he knows about his classes.   But how /when/who on registering or voting, he has no idea.  

And it's not just younger people.  I have a friend that is very successful:  45, great dad,  great friend, life of the party, earns a good living with a major company.  He may be able to say that Ted Cruz is our senator.  I would bet $1000 he has never heard of John Cornyn.  He could probably tell you the backup RB for every NFL team.  Fantasy football is serious stuff.  I don't think he's ever voted in his life.  He's told me that he doesn't know anything about political issues so he sits out.  

You would think that some people would at least decide on a single issue that matters to them, and just discover how their candidates feel about that: economy, abortion, immigration, crime, healthcare, LGBT rights, whatever.    Instead they accept life as it's presented to them.   Very confusing to me.

TV and Social Media.

[ndawg 1242]

Smart kids usually aren't sure enough of themselves to really buy into any political ideology.

Dumb kids have a lot of dumb shit competing for their attention.

[TexasMan 10891]

10 hours ago, formermav43 said:

I do not vote. I have theological convictions that inform that decision that aren’t really relevant to this thread because they aren’t on the radar of the general non-voter.

It’s difficult at this point, but leave Trump out of things for a second. He’s his own thing and I admittedly don’t understand how any rational person could support him. And I can see how he changes the situation for some.

But, in general, as someone who only follows politics as an observer, I don’t see any substantial differences in the two parties. Oh, I know what they claim. Republicans rail against spending-until they are the ones spending. Democrats are against war-until their guy is in office. Most of the actual differences seem to be on the margins-in the big picture, it’s meet the new boss, same as the old boss. 

What’s most interesting or frustrating or absurd, I’m not sure, is the way cloak room types pull for their team and justify their tactics while railing against the dirty politics of the other. Even though they’re both playing dirty, because it’s not really about means, it’s about winning. We can justify anything if we feel morally superior to the opposition. 

To outsiders, the game itself is sick. 

 

4 hours ago, Kyle said:

I can only speak for me, but I echo sentiments of some others around apathy. I am a Poli Sci major and politics traditionally has been a big part in my life. I used to love debating an discussing issues, and because I am an independent moderate, I usually could have fun engaging folks on both sides of the isle.

Personally, the tone has become filled with so much hyperbolic hate that it is just not fun anymore. I do not get emotional around politics - I am analytical by nature and like for the numbers to drive the conversation; but as an example this board is 99% emotional screeds so set in a bias that conversation is virtually impossible. In addition, sources of information have all come out of the closet in terms of feigning objectivity, so it is even hard to find decent sources of data without spin. I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but I need more than simpleton talking points that lack nuance and factual basis.

On top of that, we've become so tribal that principles and issued do not seem to matter - basically whatever T-shirt the person is wearing describes whether 99.99% agree or disagree. I mean, is it the ultimate Bizarro World that we liberals want to suspend due process and bemoan the U.S. is no longer a superpower while conservatives are supporting tariffs and trade wars? It just seems like neither party really has any principles anymore outside the culture war and individuals change positions based on who is supporting or opposing something.

Okay. Rant over. I do miss the days of discussing principled politics over Marlboro Reds and cheap whiskey, but the Internet has pretty much turned everyone into know-it-all donkeys that believe Socratic debate is screaming louder than the other guy and calling her more outlandish names.

imgur

[maninblack 7974]

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

12 hours ago, scottsins said:

Do Anabaptists get their children vaccinated?

That's a pretty broad net. I know some do. I don't know about the Amish. My mom would know, at least about the Amish in the communities where I grew up. I'll ask her the next time I talk to her. 

The Mennonites I know all vote.