Transgender woman shocked by higher car insurance rates for women

[clapclapclap 9000]

32 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Interesting. Are there actuarial tables on trans people yet?  

There's been a lot of studies on trans fats.

[OrangEngr 1034]

With respect to the football board

 

TTLP

[conVINCEd 21468]

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Interesting. Are there actuarial tables on trans people yet?  

Could be an interesting mixture of physical risks associated with one sex and behavioral risks associated with the other. 

Driving is behavior driven, but behavior can be hormone dependent and some trans people do hormone therapy and some don’t. Same with gender reassignment surgery. 

Maybe the insurance companies, who aren’t exactly altruistic, put trans folks in higher risk groups across the board to cover their asses financially. 

Couple of points:  

1. I doubt there is any data available, because any insurance application I’ve ever see asks male/female only, there isn’t a box for other.  You would need years of data, or for life insurance, decades of data, to make any meaningful conclusions.

2.  Even if there were data available, I doubt there would be a huge difference in risk.

3.  The group in question is such a small percentage of the population, it’s probably not even worth the money spent to do the research.

4.  Even if a company chose to do the research, and found a higher risk profile, they still have to get approval from the individual state insurance departments to charge a higher premium for it, which would be a legal and political minefield.

[Pato del Muerto 52227]

All of that sounds reasonable. 

But what about when people like this lady put it into the court system?  Do the carriers take the easy way out and remove the m/f question?  Or does that open them up for further litigation for age and health differences?

[El Diablo 4232]

1 hour ago, clapclapclap said:

Root cause:  Poor decision making?   Land Rovers and Mini Coopers have some of the worst reliability ratings, yet they keep selling like hotcakes.   Ever seen a guy driving one?

Something, something Trans Am.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Fat people pay more for food. UNFAIR.

No they don't.  They simply buy more food.  In fact, they may pay less per unit for food since they buy in bulk.

Something else happened with this woman that isn't being told.  The difference between male and female car insurance rates isn't as drastic as her increase.

[conVINCEd 21468]

25 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

All of that sounds reasonable. 

But what about when people like this lady put it into the court system?  Do the carriers take the easy way out and remove the m/f question?  Or does that open them up for further litigation for age and health differences?

No idea about the court system.  Insurance companies have to be able to rate differently based on relevant rating factors.  You can certainly debate about which factors are relevant, but for auto insurance the factors have been pretty consistent over time, and my educated guess is that they result in most people on this board paying less for their auto insurance. 

[Blotto 23366]

Bruce Jenner. Becomes a women, loses the ability to drive.

Look people, its science...you cant ignore the evidence.

 

[Trey3216 15321]

1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Couple of points:  

1. I doubt there is any data available, because any insurance application I’ve ever see asks male/female only, there isn’t a box for other.  You would need years of data, or for life insurance, decades of data, to make any meaningful conclusions.

2.  Even if there were data available, I doubt there would be a huge difference in risk.

3.  The group in question is such a small percentage of the population, it’s probably not even worth the money spent to do the research.

4.  Even if a company chose to do the research, and found a higher risk profile, they still have to get approval from the individual state insurance departments to charge a higher premium for it, which would be a legal and political minefield.

The one item of data life insurance actuaries do have on trans community is the higher likelihood of suicide which I'm sure would be looked at.  

[Digdogger 1343]

1 hour ago, El Diablo said:

Something, something Trans Am.

Maybe the insurance thought the car was going to break down because they were told it “has a weird tranny”

[El Diablo 4232]

1 minute ago, Digdogger said:

Maybe the insurance thought the car was going to break down because they were told it “has a weird tranny”

Well, there's the manual tranny and then there's the automatic tranny. The weird tranny will almost always cost you extra.

[Pato del Muerto 52227]

37 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

The one item of data life insurance actuaries do have on trans community is the higher likelihood of suicide which I'm sure would be looked at.  

Since suicides don’t pay out, would it matter?  Or is that just something tv and movies have gotten me to believe is true?

[MissingInAction 24735]

5 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Since suicides don’t pay out, would it matter?  Or is that just something tv and movies have gotten me to believe is true?

Do you have any idea how many desperate parents/family members would take advantage of that if they did? 

[conVINCEd 21468]

9 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Since suicides don’t pay out, would it matter?  Or is that just something tv and movies have gotten me to believe is true?

Suicides within the first 2 years of the policy are excluded.  Beyond 2 years they are covered.  So, long game.

[Trey3216 15321]

11 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Suicides within the first 2 years of the policy are excluded.  Beyond 2 years they are covered.  So, long game.

Yep 

[ABSR 5286]

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Since suicides don’t pay out, would it matter?  Or is that just something tv and movies have gotten me to believe is true?

If someone fell into a category that had a higher suicide rate, and if the policy did not pay out for suicide, then in theory wouldn't the overall policy premium be lower for those individuals?

[Lhorn 4870]

Also ways to kill yourself and make it look like an accident (“fell asleep and crossed into incoming traffic”). 

[Trey3216 15321]

1 minute ago, ABSR said:

If someone fell into a category that had a higher suicide rate, and if the policy did not pay out for suicide, then in theory wouldn't the overall policy premium be lower for those individuals?

Policies do pay out for suicide, but only after 2 years.  However, if there were actuarial information of a population subset that made the actuaries believe the tables had to be adjusted to account for higher rates of something, then they will most likely charge more money for it.  They already do this.  Smokers, Diabetics, DWI's, Cancer, etc.  

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

5 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

Also ways to kill yourself and make it look like an accident (“fell asleep and crossed into incoming traffic”). 

Yeah, but if you don't wake up, how do you know it worked?

[RollLeft 5039]

2 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Suicides within the first 2 years of the policy are excluded.  Beyond 2 years they are covered.  So, long game.

Speaking of long game, is it still true that if you live to 100 that return all your premiums?  I know some of the major carriers used to do this.  

[conVINCEd 21468]

18 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

Speaking of long game, is it still true that if you live to 100 that return all your premiums?  I know some of the major carriers used to do this.  

Whole life policies are designed to have the cash value equal the face amount when you turn 100.  I believe some carriers have changed that to 110, but I haven’t dealt with whole life in quite a while.

[HornsOverIthaca 2333]

2 hours ago, Lhorn said:

Also ways to kill yourself and make it look like an accident (“fell asleep and crossed into incoming traffic”). 

Or jump out of a plane with a backpack full of Toto LPs instead of a parachute.  Total accident.

[Dilligas 659]

On 10/9/2018 at 6:35 PM, Armybrat said:

Hey, I had a white ‘74 MGB.

I have an orange 76 in the garage for sale. Wrong thread?

[TwiceHorn 31041]

8 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

All of that sounds reasonable. 

But what about when people like this lady put it into the court system?  Do the carriers take the easy way out and remove the m/f question?  Or does that open them up for further litigation for age and health differences?

Discrimination is not illegal, particularly not in the private sector, and particularly not when supported by data.  It is perfectly legal for insurers to discriminate between male and female drivers as long as there is a statistical basis for doing so.  If they had no basis other than "women are shitty drivers," without evidence, they might have a problem.

I'm not sure the trans people will want to put this into the court system, because it might force them to take some positions as to  sex of genitalia versus sex of psychology that they don't want to get into, particularly not for trans people as a class.

[Ellellelle 308]

But her health and life insurance premiums should go down, right?  If so, is that ok by her?

Women pay more for health insurance.

[McCroskey 1493]

That 10% the wife is driving is after we've been anywhere and I've had a few beers.  

And in that 10% of the time I’m still a way better driver but I guess it’s not worth the risk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[conVINCEd 21468]

54 minutes ago, Ellellelle said:

12 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

But her health and life insurance premiums should go down, right?  If so, is that ok by her?

Women pay more for health insurance.

Because they can get knocked up.  That would not be the case here.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4964]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not sure the trans people will want to put this into the court system, because it might force them to take some positions as to  sex of genitalia versus sex of psychology that they don't want to get into, particularly not for trans people as a class.

There are always plenty of folks willing to go to court who don't think these things through.

[TwiceHorn 31041]

8 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

There are always plenty of folks willing to go to court who don't think these things through.

True enough, but probably not even the ACLU or whatever other organizations effectively litigate civil rights things.

[TexArcher 37414]

On 10/9/2018 at 1:54 PM, bschoolprof said:

per month.

That notwithstanding, I've always found legalized discrimination in the insurance industry interesting.  

 

It's not discrimination.  Insurance is priced by risk pools.  

Men pay more for life insurance because they die about 3 years earlier on average.

[TwiceHorn 31041]

Actually it is discrimination.  Discrimination is drawing any distinction between one person and another, or one group and another.  It's just not unlawful because discrimination among risk categories is fundamental to insurance.  If those categories happen to correspond to race, or sex, or sexuality, well, so be it., as long as they aren't made up.

[bschoolprof 6225]

8 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

It's not discrimination.  Insurance is priced by risk pools.  

Men pay more for life insurance because they die about 3 years earlier on average.

I understand how insurance works. It is legalized discrimination that is often critical to the efficient functioning of said markets. 

What I was getting at is this type discrimination that we seem to be ok with in insurance pricing would probably not be tolerated in other settings (e.g., hotel pricing, car rentals, interest rates, etc).  I find that interesting. 

[mulletpelini 5209]

Salary will drop as well.  Know what ain't gonna drop honey?  Your uterus.

Edited October 13, 2018 by mulletpelini

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

She just needs to take advantage of free cover on ladies night.  

[TexasEd 8058]

On 10/11/2018 at 5:53 PM, HornsOverIthaca said:

Or jump out of a plane with a backpack full of Toto LPs instead of a parachute.  Total accident.

 

 

[troph 24488]

I’ll play along...

 

My driving did get worse, much worse. At least initially. Ripped my Mercedes all up and down leaving the hair salon once. I couldn’t help but laugh. Totally distracted with a gorgeous haircut and blow out. After decades of a clean record I made a bone head move. My driving has settled in and I drive fine now. But spatial recognition and distraction stimuli and my reaction to it seemed to be much different post transition. YYMV across others I dunno.

 

Overall car insurance rates up, life insurance down. Most applications are M/F and that’s all there is to it, I check the F box. Disability, health insurance and life insurance were all different.

 

Life insurance was easy - straight up female rates. I can see a lot of reasons why, my blood pressure and other vitals come back more female so there is a baseline reason there. Suicide is a non issue for my insurer - it’s covered and when they saw my ask was commiserate with my income multiplier they said yes and we moved on.

 

Health was easy too and full trans coverage came with it when I was planning our firm group coverage without an option to exclude unless I wanted to ask the insurer specifically for trans exclusionary coverage. United, BCBS and Humana all included it. this was before I came out to the broker and in Texas. Again another non-issue.

 

Disability was much different and when I tried to get coverage through the State Bar via prudential I had to nearly threaten a discrim suit. Their initial denial letter put it all on being trans. I asked for an appeal and to see their records. They then said it was also ADHD and anxiety - Neither truly diagnosed - I explored possibilities and treatment and didn’t pursue anything really with it and anxiety was situational based of infidelity, being forced into an open marriage and subsequent divorce. They also refused to give me the records nor to honor my request for an appeal. I even went so far to say in my second response letter “I didn’t ask for a revised basis for your denial, I asked for an appeal and copies of the records you reviewed.” Suffice it to say - bullshit answer. I then demanded an appeal again and copies of the records. I discussed with my doctor we prepared another response and it crossed in the mail with their approval.

 

Everyone talks about suicide and y’all can keep your preconceived notions if you want but being able to transition, reasonably successfully on looks and ability to blend, with emotional support and a path way in society that works nearly eliminates that risk. I’ve got way to much life to live now to kill myself.

 

Anyway, I get insurance is gonna do what they do, but most of my experience has been easy and inconsequential - with the exception of prudential and disability. The strangest thing is prudential scored 100% on the HRC corporate equality index. Thought it might be the State Bar instructions to them and I was willing to blow both of them up over it.

 

No way I’m a bigger overall risk to an insurance company as a well adjusted happy trans woman than I was as a severely suffering dude. No way.

 

 

 

[troph 24488]

Salary will drop as well.  Know what ain't gonna drop honey?  Your uterus.

Don’t get me started on professional differences I’ve experienced. Geez.

[clapclapclap 9000]

I assume your avatar pic is after?

Edited October 15, 2018 by clapclapclap

[troph 24488]

my lucky rabbit avatar? That’s based on my Chinese zodiac. Was a painting of a sunflower on the old site. I don’t even remember before that. None maybe? Thought about changing it to pics of boobies but have been too lazy to do it.

 

[clapclapclap 9000]

Well damn.  I've been picturing a hare steering a boat on Lake Travis for awhile now.

Edited October 15, 2018 by clapclapclap
Which was quite impressive

[Pato del Muerto 52227]

Probably hareless anyway