Guitar Technique, Theory, and Songs You're Playing

[JoseMedinaDeJesus 207]

Beginner help needed again.  Yes I suck.  But have made huge strides in the last couple of weeks.  I'm able to switch between A, D, E, A minor, E minor, & D minor relatively easy to the clip of about 60 changes a minute. Yes I miss my chord some times.  But the more I practice, the better it gets. I've been getting in about 30 - 45 minutes a night on days I work. That's 3 or 4 nights a week.  On days off I practice anywhere from 2 to 8 hours.  Taking small breaks for the red hot needles in my left hand fingers to go out.

 

My problem now is chord shapes and changes between C & G.  I keep moving and putting down fingers one at a time.  It causes a moment of pause when I do it.  I know this isn't correct.  I am trying to do "air chords". Making shapes above the strings before I put my fingers down.  This is fucking impossible. 

Would playing a C over and over be better for this? For example: C strum, lift my fingers about a 1/2 inch off of the strings, then put them right back on C. Rinse and repeat until the fingers in my left hand cramp. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by JoseMedinaDeJesus

[tbone_ 14139]

I’d just keep at the c g change. It’ll come. Takes time sometimes.

[Celery Man 20982]

tbone is correct and much more succinct.  here's the novel I was typing up and doing tongue twisters with my fingers.

I think I learned that change playing Hey Joe.  I also think that my answer to how I learned almost anything is in pursuit of being able to play a song.  So, I spent a long time playing this, and it must have been a long time because I really don't know that any other song pops into my head when I'm thinking of another chord change.

C G | D A |  E  |  E  |

I assume you're playing G with your middle finger on the big E string.  I'm tempted to not mention this (since you should learn how to easily move in and out of that formation) but there are a lot of times if I'm doing G and C next to each other that I play G with my ring finger on the big E.  Ring finger on the E string, middle finger on the A string, and pinky on the high e.  Switch to the C by moving your ring and middle fingers down one, dropping the index on the b string, and lifting the pinky.  Or leave it in a place and you've got a fun C chord with a high G.

or take yourself to jesus camp (or Green Day "time of your life" I guess) and play G the standard way, and then move your first two fingers each up a string, then switch to the D, then back to that weird C and back to the G again.

Of course, if I'm playing G the other more standard way, I'll often to usually also play the 3rd fret on the B string - 320033

That's some rambling, I think a more direct answer to your question is that practicing the chords individually would probably help, but you'll have to practice that G to C to G movement a lot.  It is a weird change and it'll take doing it a lot to turn it into a fluid motion.

or here's this lady explaining the alternate way to play G

 

Edited June 9, 2019 by Celery Man

[JoseMedinaDeJesus 207]

2 hours ago, Celery Man said:

I assume you're playing G with your middle finger on the big E string.  I'm tempted to not mention this (since you should learn how to easily move in and out of that formation) but there are a lot of times if I'm doing G and C next to each other that I play G with my ring finger on the big E.  Ring finger on the E string, middle finger on the A string, and pinky on the high e.  Switch to the C by moving your ring and middle fingers down one, dropping the index on the b string, and lifting the pinky.  Or leave it in a place and you've got a fun C chord with a high G.

You are correct.  and the proper C out of that is a stretch.  However, I can play that little cheater C all day and night back and forth from G.  I was however wanting to get the normal C down. Its not just G that I cant move from to the C.  Its all chords.  But I did practice normal C and G back and forth for about 3 hours tonight.  I have cut transition time in half that way.  just doing it over and over again.

 

Probably a dumb ass question.  But is repetition usually the answer to everything with guitar technique, at least this early on in learning? 

 

Super awesome of you guys to take some time and answer this for me.

[VABuckeye 2472]

I like that ladies method.  Sure makes that G to C change much easier.  Thanks.

[retread 2951]

Yep. I much prefer the G with the ring finger on the big E (6 string). Makes going from C to G much easier. 

JMDJ, as you play more, your fingers will remember what these chords feel like. It's hard to explain, but it's almost like there's a groove that your fingers fall into when you go to play a certain chord. It will become second nature to play all these chords.

[noharleyyet 2838]

Finally JImi's Hey Joe solo, fills, and intro....been playing it wrong for decades.

[tbone_ 14139]

Hey joe is a good song to practice a changes between a bunch of basic chords you’ll play a lot.

[tbone_ 14139]

For me it’s not uncommon that when trying to learn something new, after practicing for a while, it comes out better after stepping away from it for a bit. Never understood why that is.

 

[NBMisha 224]

 

Yes that is a strange phenomenom.  But, it sure makes one feel less guilty about the time away.

[retread 2951]

It's harder when you're first starting, but I like to rotate between songs. Get some where I like them, and then revisit ones that I haven't played in a while.

[noharleyyet 2838]

1 hour ago, tbone_ said:

For me it’s not uncommon that when trying to learn something new, after practicing for a while, it comes out better after stepping away from it for a bit. Never understood why that is.

 

Good point and occasionally I'll figure something out via ear worm & go back and make it work. 

[Deej 76873]

3 hours ago, tbone_ said:

For me it’s not uncommon that when trying to learn something new, after practicing for a while, it comes out better after stepping away from it for a bit. Never understood why that is.

 

It is that way with anything you practice at a lot. Golf swing, shooting a basketball, playing guitar...

You get mentally and physically tired and you get sloppy. Stepping away and coming back fresh always helps.

[Buzzrock 14936]

Yes, repetition and play it very slowly until you have it down, then slowly speed up. Said another way: practice slow to play fast.

Also: team 320033

Also: Indigo Girls “Closer to Fine” is a fun one to learn and helps with learning G/C/D and some variants on those shapes.

[retread 2951]

^ Take It Easy (Eagles) too

Opening: 320033 => 032033 => 030233 and back to 320033 

[noharleyyet 2838]

Badge solo...and it's kicking my azz

[dcbc 14497]

On 6/9/2019 at 12:52 PM, tbone_ said:

Hey joe is a good song to practice a changes between a bunch of basic chords you’ll play a lot.

Seems like it's pretty straight forward E minor pentatonic with some attitude.  ?Verdad?

[tbone_ 14139]

C G D A E (bend and pull off the G on the low e string).

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Hey Joe is a really interesting blues harmony song in the key of E major.  The lead is based in E minor pentatonic, and the first three chords are the three major chords of E minor.   What is notable is that the chord progression follows the circle of fifths:  C to G (up a 5th/down a 4th), G to D (same), D to A (same), A to E (same).  This pattern takes the song through the borrowed E minor chords, and then back to the E major IV chord A, resolving on E (major).   You can see the pattern well when you play the voicings of those chords at the 3rd fret (C and G), 5th fret (D and A), and 7th fret (E).  Which is the core of how Jimi plays it, though he also plays other voicings like the open chords depending on where his hands are from the extra stuff he does. 

[tbone_ 14139]

That’s interesting. Never thought about that. I have always thought it was interesting it doesn’t have the V in the progression.

[retread 2951]

2 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

Hey Joe is a really interesting blues harmony song in the key of E major.  The lead is based in E minor pentatonic, and the first three chords are the three major chords of E minor.   What is notable is that the chord progression follows the circle of fifths:  C to G (up a 5th/down a 4th), G to D (same), D to A (same), A to E (same).  This pattern takes the song through the borrowed E minor chords, and then back to the E major IV chord A, resolving on E (major).   You can see the pattern well when you play the voicings of those chords at the 3rd fret (C and G), 5th fret (D and A), and 7th fret (E).  Which is the core of how Jimi plays it, though he also plays other voicings like the open chords depending on where his hands are from the extra stuff he does. 

Is there a term for that upward movement in fifths, like C to G? I'm familiar with secondary dominants, but this seems different.

I like the presentations on this site. They give little snippets of chord progressions that they discuss.

http://www.fretjam.com/borrowed-chords.html

[Mojo Hand 4580]

3 minutes ago, retread said:

Is there a term for that upward movement in fifths, like C to G? I'm familiar with secondary dominants, but this seems different.

I like the presentations on this site. They give little snippets of chord progressions that they discuss.

http://www.fretjam.com/borrowed-chords.html

Disclaimer that I'm not an expert and have no music degree, but here goes.   The concluding A to E (IV to I) in the progression is generally known as the "plagal" cadence, but I don't know that you would use the same term for the other changes.   In my understanding, the best way to describe this progression is as a "sequence," which is a series of chords or notes separated by the same interval.   This one is specifically a sequence of ascending fifths (even though every other chord drops a fourth, the overall movement ascends up the fretboard).  Sequences have forward movement from the regularity of the pattern itself, rather than a predominant - dominant - tonic harmonic function.   You just have to have a way to lead them back into some logical harmonic function, which Hey Joe achieves by getting to a IV - I. 

Another example is the "Sun, sun, sun, here it comes" bridge from Here Comes the Sun, which coincidentally uses essentially the same chords, but in the key of A:   C - G - D - D - A - E7.    Here the E7 is a dominant, which we don't have in the Hey Joe progression, and only the C and G are borrowed from the parallel minor, with a longer beat on the IV chord (D) to emphasize the plagal cadence to A.   Those differences put the Beatles version more firmly in the standard harmony of A major, whereas Hey Joe has an unsettled feeling from having more E minor chords than E major chords and no dominant.  And that really fits each song perfectly. 

[Celery Man 20982]

I keep landing on this guy's page trying to pick out Jason Isbell songs, and I finally just looked at his list of tutorials.  They tend to be pretty good, too

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTCS78UpWHrkHhS2-2oX6ag/videos?disable_polymer=1

[Celery Man 20982]

Also for that little lick in Hey Joe, I'll have to go back and listen but I think rather than hammering the G off and on the E string, it's lifting your ring finger off of the E chord (making the D string open) and playing B D, B D, D-E (hammering the ring finger back on to make the E).

actually that's just how I learned it - I believe the notes for that are right but Hendrix is of course not just playing the regular cowboy chords so it's likely slightly different

Edited June 23, 2019 by Celery Man

[Celery Man 20982]

Back to that youtube guy and Isbell songs - I think these are great to learn for adding variation and color to basic rhythm stuff.  Like, it's all just a few steps away from the cowboy chords, so it's fairly approachable, but it adds lots of little alterations that you find yourself incorporating into how you might approach other things, or little ways to make those types of progressions a lot more interesting.  Plus the way he arranges his songs is great - he's really both a phenomenal songwriter as well as a great rhythm player (probably lead as well, but I'm usually more interested in rhythm).  Take this song as an example of something really straightforward but actually not, second track off of Southeastern

 

[VABuckeye 2472]

4 hours ago, Celery Man said:

I keep landing on this guy's page trying to pick out Jason Isbell songs, and I finally just looked at his list of tutorials.  They tend to be pretty good, too

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTCS78UpWHrkHhS2-2oX6ag/videos?disable_polymer=1

Thanks celeryman.  That looks like a nice rabbit hole to go down. 

[Celery Man 20982]

Man it is.  Chalk this under one of those songs I never thought to learn

shit, I want that guitar.  xposting to Guitar Pron....

[noharleyyet 2838]

Those are some cool progressions...

[Celery Man 20982]

i'm listening to this Tyler Childers album and decided I wanted to figure out the riff on the second track.  quick google, and of course there's my boy Tim.

i'll try and stop spamming this thread with his videos but this one is a pretty good pinky workout

i don't think Tyler is worrying about the high e string on the d chord, and I'm using my pinky to hammer on the note on the a chord because might as well just get finger ripped

Edited June 26, 2019 by Celery Man

[retread 2951]

Keep posting them. Good stuff.

[Celery Man 20982]

I like little parts that are based around simple chords but put little melodies or twists into them.  Which I think is just a description of good rhythm guitar.  But picking up parts like that and playing them and incrementally getting better at them has helped me a lot with learning about little melodies are easily reachable from different chords, as well as finger dexterity and isolating strings on your picking hand.  I've been playing that Wilco thing above (Jesus, etc) and that reminded me of another song of theirs that I listened to and half picked out years ago, and made me want to go back and learn it a bit more properly.

1) it's funny when you half recognize a part just from fumbling around, and then piece back together what you remember and fiddle with it a couple of times a year for 10 years and then go back and actually listen to the part, which little things you had wrong the entire time.  And also how hard it is undo some of what you've gotten used to playing.  And so I'm still doing the first bit of rhythm differently here than the song.

2) i think this was around the time I was starting to actively get better at all the things I described above, and so it made me think it might be a fun/useful thing for people to pick out who are also trying to get better at those things.

It is capo'd on the third fret, but I'll describe chords/frets as if it is not.  The basic chord forms are Am, C, Dm, C, E.  I don't know if at the end he ever goes to E7, but I like to play that there sometimes, and play it as 020140 (or, basic E but lift your ring finger and put the pinky down on the 4th fret of the B string).

On the Am, there's a little hammer on/off part with the ring finger.  On the C, that hammer on melody echoes with your pinky and middle finger on mostly the G string.  It ends on an open A string before strumming the Dm, where you hammer on with your pinky on the high E, and then lift your index finger and hammer it back onto the 1 when you strum out the chord again and make a little melody going down to the B string and back again.  Back to the C where the melody continues on the D and G strings and then ends on the E.

I suck at explaining the part, but here it is a few times in a row.

 

"anchor your pinky" is one of those direction that frustrated me and then one day I realized I was doing it naturally.  But you should try to remember to anchor your pinky on your picking hand.

also, I misplayed the melody in the C chord the second time around.  I think he's always starting with the second fret hammering onto the third fret, not open hammering onto second.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Celery Man

[noharleyyet 2838]

..would like to say I was learning this. SIAP