Football is Chess: Offensive Aptitude in the Cotton Bowl

[sushihorn 3233]

I seem to excel at hitting quote instead of edit.

Edited October 11, 2018 by sushihorn

[jinx 2635]

3 hours ago, Majorcholas said:

I think we did get called for illegal formation in the red zone on that same exact play later in the game.

I thought you could put as many people ON the line as you want, it is how many are off the line that may draw a flag.

[Zavala 1384]

One wrinkle I would like to see eventually is also the counter with guard and tackle pulling. The backfield action works sweet because it lines up just like a regular dive but the HB goes one way to get the ball then counters back where the pulling linemen are going. Sometimes ends up being a sweep toward the side the RB is lined up on. 

It makes sense to have some type of counter built into the power spread but I don't see it used very often.

[Machinator 32097]

17 minutes ago, Zavala said:

One wrinkle I would like to see eventually is also the counter with guard and tackle pulling.

Lincoln Riley loves this concept, and used it to great success against us last year.

3 hours ago, CycleTex87 said:

I haven't kept up maybe, but is Porter AWOL?  AWOL requires intent on the part of the AWOL person.  Or is this simply a coaches call on who plays better, who practices better, etc?

Redshirt candidate.

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

So next season when former tight end Reese Moore is playing right tackle?

Moore could play anywhere. There's speculation that he could be a future center.

[JBJ 3649]

2 hours ago, Katfid54 said:

More interesting to me are packages where the covered up man is a decoy but the "right tackle" is an eligible receiver/tight end.  99% of the time, you can keep that guy into block.  But when defenses stop keying on him, he can do a lot of damage.

To me that is called a Wildcat formation no matter how the word gets used now. 

Poehlmann can haz TD?

[Katfid54 8591]

3 minutes ago, Machinator said:

22 minutes ago, Zavala said:

One wrinkle I would like to see eventually is also the counter with guard and tackle pulling.

Lincoln Riley loves this concept, and used it to great success against us last year. 

He pretty much shelved it against us this year.  I think they only ran it twice.  They ran it on the first play of the game, and Hager almost tackled both Murray and the RB in the backfield (although OU ends up gaining first-down yardage on the play):

 

Orlando has a really cool defensive scheme here.  It's basically an old school zone read scrape exchange.  Hager's job is to, basically, "follow" in the hip pocket of the pulling guard and to take whoever will be carrying the ball following the counter action.  Gary Johnson, though, replaces Hager in his gap, so if Murray pulls the ball and tries to run on the backside, he'll be brought down by GJ.  Unfortunately, Hager goes for the RB instead of being patient and forcing Murray to make a decision, and Murray is able to pull the ball and follow the blocks through the hole.  Since GJ has vacated pursuit of the play in the scrape exchxange, there's really no one to bring him down until he gets to the second level.

Nevertheless, Riley sees Orlando's scheme and realizes it will generally shut down this counter play, so he basically shelves the play, even though it's one of OU's favorite run concepts.  Riley doesn't come back to the play until the 4th quarter, when he runs a QB draw version of the counter with double pulling action:

Herman said in his presser on Monday that he thinks OU messed up the blocking on this.  But I don't think they do.  Instead, I think Riley has the frontside tackle pull toward the backside to try to kick out any defender who is following in the pocket of the pulling guard/tackle.  Basically, I think Riley has already installed a new blocking scheme to adapt to Orlando's scrape exchange look that we showed ONE TIME in the first half.  In any event, Riley's scheme is kind of irrelevant, because we bite hard on Murray's pass fake, our ends get WAY upfield, and Murray scores from 1,000 yards away.

[Beau Vine 54001]

3 hours ago, Katfid54 said:

Right.  It would have to be a lateral--not just a pass behind the line of scrimmage and not a "screen".  To get that guy the ball woudl require him to, basically, run backwards 5 yards from the snap, since he's starting on the line of scrimmage.

 

That's what all of them were doing, too.  

I assume we'll see a team throw to that guy eventually, though I guess it will result in a double pass, rather than a weird "WR screen."

[Beau Vine 54001]

1 hour ago, jinx said:

I thought you could put as many people ON the line as you want, it is how many are off the line that may draw a flag.

Right, but not everyone on the line can be an eligible receiver.  If you come out in a shotgun with 10 on the line, you only have two guys you can throw to.  

Edited October 11, 2018 by Beau Vine

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

17 minutes ago, Katfid54 said:

He pretty much shelved it against us this year.  I think they only ran it twice.  They ran it on the first play of the game, and Hager almost tackled both Murray and the RB in the backfield (although OU ends up gaining first-down yardage on the play):

 

Orlando has a really cool defensive scheme here.  It's basically an old school zone read scrape exchange.  Hager's job is to, basically, "follow" in the hip pocket of the pulling guard and to take whoever will be carrying the ball following the counter action.  Gary Johnson, though, replaces Hager in his gap, so if Murray pulls the ball and tries to run on the backside, he'll be brought down by GJ.  Unfortunately, Hager goes for the RB instead of being patient and forcing Murray to make a decision, and Murray is able to pull the ball and follow the blocks through the hole.  Since GJ has vacated pursuit of the play in the scrape exchxange, there's really no one to bring him down until he gets to the second level.

Nevertheless, Riley sees Orlando's scheme and realizes it will generally shut down this counter play, so he basically shelves the play, even though it's one of OU's favorite run concepts.  Riley doesn't come back to the play until the 4th quarter, when he runs a QB draw version of the counter with double pulling action:

Herman said in his presser on Monday that he thinks OU messed up the blocking on this.  But I don't think they do.  Instead, I think Riley has the frontside tackle pull toward the backside to try to kick out any defender who is following in the pocket of the pulling guard/tackle.  Basically, I think Riley has already installed a new blocking scheme to adapt to Orlando's scrape exchange look that we showed ONE TIME in the first half.  In any event, Riley's scheme is kind of irrelevant, because we bite hard on Murray's pass fake, our ends get WAY upfield, and Murray scores from 1,000 yards away.

The ends fucked up for sure, but it’s sterns that turns this from a 15-20 yard gain to a td run by breaking down to the inside of the wr block and allowing Murray to choose the sideline away from defenders and away from sterns. 

I think he had time to get above the block to cut off the sideline, and at least force Murray to cut back inside towards pursuit. 

[Katfid54 8591]

3 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The ends fucked up for sure, but it’s sterns that turns this from a 15-20 yard gain to a td run by breaking down to the inside of the wr block and allowing Murray to choose the sideline away from defenders and away from sterns. 

I think he had time to get above the block to cut off the sideline, and at least force Murray to cut back inside towards pursuit. 

Meh.  You can basically go defender by defender and say that they mess this play up.  For example, if BJ Foster recognizes the play a split second earlier, he probably tackles Murray in the hole (maybe for loss?), instead of just slamming into a lineman.  With that said, Foster definitely gets held (and it definitely effects the play, because Foster almost walks Murray all the way down by the end of the play).

Same for Gary Johnson.  With BJ on his inside hip, he should take on the puller with his inside shoulder, and he probably brings Murray down for a yard or two gain at best.

[Zavala 1384]

32 minutes ago, Katfid54 said:

He pretty much shelved it against us this year.  I think they only ran it twice.  They ran it on the first play of the game, and Hager almost tackled both Murray and the RB in the backfield (although OU ends up gaining first-down yardage on the play):

 

Orlando has a really cool defensive scheme here.  It's basically an old school zone read scrape exchange.  Hager's job is to, basically, "follow" in the hip pocket of the pulling guard and to take whoever will be carrying the ball following the counter action.  Gary Johnson, though, replaces Hager in his gap, so if Murray pulls the ball and tries to run on the backside, he'll be brought down by GJ.  Unfortunately, Hager goes for the RB instead of being patient and forcing Murray to make a decision, and Murray is able to pull the ball and follow the blocks through the hole.  Since GJ has vacated pursuit of the play in the scrape exchxange, there's really no one to bring him down until he gets to the second level.

Nevertheless, Riley sees Orlando's scheme and realizes it will generally shut down this counter play, so he basically shelves the play, even though it's one of OU's favorite run concepts.  Riley doesn't come back to the play until the 4th quarter, when he runs a QB draw version of the counter with double pulling action:

Herman said in his presser on Monday that he thinks OU messed up the blocking on this.  But I don't think they do.  Instead, I think Riley has the frontside tackle pull toward the backside to try to kick out any defender who is following in the pocket of the pulling guard/tackle.  Basically, I think Riley has already installed a new blocking scheme to adapt to Orlando's scrape exchange look that we showed ONE TIME in the first half.  In any event, Riley's scheme is kind of irrelevant, because we bite hard on Murray's pass fake, our ends get WAY upfield, and Murray scores from 1,000 yards away.

Gosh the ends are aggressive at getting upfield and over running the play.

Also, pulling it on that counter looked crazy but I guess that's why it worked.

Anyway, if blowU does it, fuck that play. Especially fuck that front side tackle pulling, that play did look all kinds of blown.

[MrPhlegm 3413]

Sorry.  Using my iPhone and I can't right click and apple.  End the suffering and post those two pics if you would.
The wheel route to Watson was a variation on a play called 60-1 Mesh.

Iphong? Does yours have that stupid notch?

[Treefidy 1463]

55 minutes ago, Katfid54 said:

 

 

Orlando has a really cool defensive scheme here.  It's basically an old school zone read scrape exchange.  Hager's job is to, basically, "follow" in the hip pocket of the pulling guard and to take whoever will be carrying the ball following the counter action.  Gary Johnson, though, replaces Hager in his gap, so if Murray pulls the ball and tries to run on the backside, he'll be brought down by GJ.  Unfortunately, Hager goes for the RB instead of being patient and forcing Murray to make a decision, and Murray is able to pull the ball and follow the blocks through the hole.  

Hagar should have taken that opportunity to smash the QB at full blast, one of the few chances anyone might have and would set the tone nicely.   Murray probably would have gotten the ball away but he would be thinking "oh shit, maybe I should have stuck with baseball".  

[Katfid54 8591]

12 minutes ago, Treefidy said:

Hagar should have taken that opportunity to smash the QB at full blast, one of the few chances anyone might have and would set the tone nicely.   Murray probably would have gotten the ball away but he would be thinking "oh shit, maybe I should have stuck with baseball".  

That's why I think Riley didn't call it again in the first half--worried that the next time he called it, Murray's cappa might get de-tated.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, MrPhlegm said:

20 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Sorry.  Using my iPhone and I can't right click and apple.  End the suffering and post those two pics if you would.
The wheel route to Watson was a variation on a play called 60-1 Mesh.

Iphong? Does yours have that stupid notch?

Maybe. Pretend that 93% of the phone’s functionality is wasted on me and you haveva clear picture of my understanding of the phone.  

[Modessit 5596]

One of the reasons to keep Ingram in as lead blocker is to keep ou from being able to substitute to a package that might be better suited to stop the play we wanted. It also keeps him in for the next play after a 4th down pickup (if necessary) without letting them substitute if they were able to prior and now have the wrong personnel on the field.

[Majorcholas 507]

7 hours ago, jinx said:

I thought you could put as many people ON the line as you want, it is how many are off the line that may draw a flag.

Correct. You need at least 7 on the LOS. You can have more, but as someone else remembered correctly....CJ got his helmet knocked off, sub came in and lined up off the line when he was supposed to be ON and count as one of the 7. Penalty. We scored anyway I think.

the reason they do it is to mess with automatic alignments defenses have. It’s what I would consider the new spread way of going “unbalanced”. Like a power I team having two te’s on one side back in the day. It makes the defense look for it constantly because you can be at a disadvantage if they don’t recognize.

the name of the game is alignment and if you can get the defense in a bad one you have an advantage. Make it as complicated as you can for them. Easy for you to prepare, hard for them to prepare is a no brainer.

[bluto 4891]

speaking of ingram as a lead blocker... how the f did the refs not call him dragging the corner down on one of the Sam TD runs outside. it seemed like one of those no brainer holds by refs totally in the open, was waiting on the flag any second but fortunately it never came. maybe the refs knew it wouldn't matter anyhow with ou's RZ D. 

[HOOK'EMHOOAH 1606]

12 hours ago, hornian said:

That was like me at a bar at 2 a.m. in college. 

 

12 hours ago, sushihorn said:

We've all been there.  Sometimes the talent gap is just too great to press.  Then you just have to drop back and try to pick off a late or careless offering.

 

12 hours ago, Pogo said:

I got really good at that by my senior year.

You fuckers must be been disciples of black lab. He spoke of the same metrics in the hateweek podcast.

[VaLonghorn99 340]

This game was an offensive clinic. After watching it again for the third time:

• The game was always close and back and forth
• OU fell behind primarily due to a holding call on them and TO fumble by Murray letting us go up by 3 TDs
• OU got back in the game due to back to back holding calls in our two drives in 4Q 
• Also we seemed to throw too many times while trying to kill the clock. The passes were incomplete and stopped the clock.
• No holding calls in our final drive. Ehlinger and Dicker to the rescue!

Hard fought win truly and an epic game with us on the fun side.

[longhornsftmfw 129]

speaking of ingram as a lead blocker... how the f did the refs not call him dragging the corner down on one of the Sam TD runs outside. it seemed like one of those no brainer holds by refs totally in the open, was waiting on the flag any second but fortunately it never came. maybe the refs knew it wouldn't matter anyhow with ou's RZ D. 

I was wondering the same. Maybe because they were both pretty much already falling when he grabbed the defender? It was definitely obvious and out in the open.

[pacman 7329]

18 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The ends fucked up for sure, but it’s sterns that turns this from a 15-20 yard gain to a td run by breaking down to the inside of the wr block and allowing Murray to choose the sideline away from defenders and away from sterns. 

I think he had time to get above the block to cut off the sideline, and at least force Murray to cut back inside towards pursuit. 

I would expect Davis to be responsible for maintaining outside leverage to keep Murray inside.

[Slacks 6791]

And on the 3rd and 3 on the last drive, all Ingram had to do was help Beck double the LB because the DB he was responsible for was hiding behind said LB.  The ou safety was hiding behind the other LB as well.  They wanted nothing to do with having to tackle Sam by that point.  Our coaches weren't saying "We think y'all are pussies," they were saying, "We KNOW y'all are pussies!"

DB was hiding out in the first half, too. #19, I believe. The physical portion of the game was over at half. The rest was execution.

[Slacks 6791]

It's been used heavily for the past few years by spread-to-run offenses. I first noticed it being used extensively by Malzahn at Auburn a while back. Not surprising that the slow-to-copycat nature of football means we're seeing it everywhere now.
And it's driven me mad for years watching defenses honor the ineligible receiver like he's eligible. There should be one man on that guy lined up a yard inside of him right on the line of scrimmage and watching the backfield, ready to jump a bubble screen throw or attack an outside run. There is zero threat of him running by you to catch a pass because he's not eligible.

But All the covered WR has to do is take a step back while, say, an HB steps up on the other side of the line...

Yeah, one the ball is snapped, ignore... But you better KNOW he was on and covered...

[Slacks 6791]

This game was an offensive clinic. After watching it again for the third time:

• The game was always close and back and forth
• OU fell behind primarily due to a holding call on them and TO fumble by Murray letting us go up by 3 TDs
• OU got back in the game due to back to back holding calls in our two drives in 4Q 
• Also we seemed to throw too many times while trying to kill the clock. The passes were incomplete and stopped the clock.
• No holding calls in our final drive. Ehlinger and Dicker to the rescue!

Hard fought win truly and an epic game with us on the fun side.

Only thing I hated was the throwing. We could have run the clock out if we ran for a 1st down.

[bschoolprof 6232]

13 hours ago, bluto said:

speaking of ingram as a lead blocker... how the f did the refs not call him dragging the corner down on one of the Sam TD runs outside. it seemed like one of those no brainer holds by refs totally in the open, was waiting on the flag any second but fortunately it never came. maybe the refs knew it wouldn't matter anyhow with ou's RZ D. 

"And then he said, get this, 'hey Mr. Big 12 ref, aren't you gonna call holding?'"  

[MrPhlegm 3413]

Maybe. Pretend that 93% of the phone’s functionality is wasted on me and you haveva clear picture of my understanding of the phone.  

Actually it's not a phone at all it's a hand computer that makes phone calls.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

5 hours ago, MrPhlegm said:

On 10/11/2018 at 6:53 PM, Bobby_Batronic said:

Maybe. Pretend that 93% of the phone’s functionality is wasted on me and you haveva clear picture of my understanding of the phone.  

Actually it's not a phone at all it's a hand computer that makes phone calls.

Exactly. Keep in mind the operating system on my equipment at work was written when Pong was s**t hot. 

[Lat22 3994]

On 10/11/2018 at 11:59 AM, Katfid54 said:

Or maybe it's because Ingram is really fucking good at football?

He’s going off for two bills today. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

I wonder if at any point we’ll show the QB lead action for 1-2 steps and then counter backside with the QB or back cutting across the QB. If the back takes it we give up the one man blocking advantage, but you gotta think that teams will flow so hard playside that the backside will have some room to roam if blocked well. 

[The Golden Hat 299]

So we're done crying about the fact that Oklahoma also scored points? Fantastic

[tbone_ 14021]

It’s nice to see a discussion of actual schemes deployed in a legitimate strategic way.

 

Trying to remember the last time this happened...Might have been before the advent of message boards.