Football is Chess: Offensive Aptitude in the Cotton Bowl

[pacman 7,328]

Speaking of chess, I like how successful they have been with Beck out wide, after some early failures.

They can put him on the line, with his hand in the dirt, or put him in the slot. They can change the look at any time with motion, shifting between the two formations. They can even put him in the hback role, offset.

That's a lot of flexibility, with many different looks through the use of one player.

I think Beck is having a good senior year and I am happy for him. Gaskamp?

Edited October 11, 2018 by pacman

[pacman 7,328]

2 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

The two crossers from one side look like a very effective moving pick for the single crosser from the other side in man. In the 60-1 mesh key breakdown you can see that the QB reads the free safety to determine the coverage and then his first progression is the flat defender. Actually, the free safety generally gives away the coverage per anyway, but you can see Sam look downfield for a moment and then quickly swivel to the wheel. He was either holding the S knowing where he wanted to go or making that read.  Or so it would seem. 

Yes, if we had a quick slot type, it would be a perfect route for them. The Rams run it with Kupp quite a few times. The db has no chance to stick with the wr through all that traffic.

[Machinator 32,097]

7 minutes ago, Majorcholas said:

the outside zone qb keep we have used to such great effect this year is the same thing we got crushed on last year. The board would explode with “beck sucks” and mensamoron comments. It actually works schematically and we aren’t losing one on one battles this year. Having a healthy blocking tight end has made this play and others work now when they didn’t in the past.

They got crushed for it because we didn't have the personnel to do it yet ran it anyway. There's nothing wrong with the playcall if you have the players. 

[Machinator 32,097]

7 minutes ago, pacman said:

I think Beck is having a good senior year and I am happy for him. Gaskamp?

It's between him and Rodriguez.

[Chuckie Finster 22,599]

4 minutes ago, pacman said:

Yes, if we had a quick slot type, it would be a perfect route for them. The Rams run it with Kupp quite a few times. The db has no chance to stick with the wr through all that traffic.

[Mileslong 4,714]

Sorry.  Using my iPhone and I can't right click and apple.  End the suffering and post those two pics if you would.
The wheel route to Watson was a variation on a play called 60-1 Mesh.

Save the image to your images folder on your phone. Then hit the photos icon in Surly and simply select the image from your photos file and it posts it for you

[mdmost 42,860]

I'm hoping Saturday was the start of great things for this offense. It all started to click. From Sam on down to WRs. It all flowed so well. They took advantage of OU so many times. Then they just flat dominated them. I think Herman finally saw the potential in this offense that he's been waiting on. What a stage to have it all come together. This wasn't like the TCU or USC games where something had to go right after early stumbles. The offense was great from the second they got the ball and immediately responded to OU's score. They're starting to believe.

Edited October 11, 2018 by mdmost

[po elvis 2,070]

we used the middle of the field. finally.

[Tex Long 4,347]

The series of pics with the QB Stretch plays show two of the three WRs on the left side both on the LOS, or nearly so. If the inside WR is on the line, he's an ineligible receiver and cannot go downfield – if he's not on the line, then there are five in the backfield.

The second pic (TCU game) clearly shows #2 WR in the backfield – illegal formation, five backs... not sure what the result of the play was. It would be legal if HB/TE steps up onto the line, but the #2 WR on the line is still ineligible – although only a problem if he goes downfield and/or receives a pass. Do recall some illegal formation penalties, but don't know if that one was called.

[Huckleberry 32,699]

The alignment intentionally has the inside WR covered up and ineligible. In the TCU pic he may have been technically on the LOS if his head was even with the center's waist. Pretty close either way.

This is a pretty common feature of spread running attacks these days.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Huckleberry

[LTtxfan 48,966]

So  "Katfid54" ...... What plays, formations, playcalling would maybe be best for TEXAS to implement and exploit against baylor ??

Edited October 11, 2018 by LTtxfan

[Katfid54 8,591]

20 minutes ago, Tex Long said:

The second pic (TCU game) clearly shows #2 WR in the backfield – illegal formation, five backs... not sure what the result of the play was. It would be legal if HB/TE steps up onto the line, but the #2 WR on the line is still ineligible – although only a problem if he goes downfield and/or receives a pass. Do recall some illegal formation penalties, but don't know if that one was called. 

Probably should've been flagged as an illegal formation.  But, fortunately, it wasn't, and it resulted in Sam running QB power for an 7-ish yard gain.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Katfid54

[Viper 12,028]

2 hours ago, pacman said:

Speaking of chess, I like how successful they have been with Beck out wide, after some early failures.

They can put him on the line, with his hand in the dirt, or put him in the slot. They can change the look at any time with motion, shifting between the two formations. They can even put him in the hback role, offset.

That's a lot of flexibility, with many different looks through the use of one player.

I think Beck is having a good senior year and I am happy for him. Gaskamp?

This actually came into play with the wheel route TD against OU. We had 4th and 1 and they brought in their base package. We converted but didn't give them a chance to get into nickel and threw a TD pass

[Katfid54 8,591]

9 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

So  "Katfid54" ...... What plays, formations, playcalling would maybe be best for TEXAS to implement and exploit against baylor ??

I don't know why you weirdly put quotes around my username.  But my response is that Baylor's rushing defense is abysmal.  We should abuse them with

Power:

 

Pin and Pull:

 

Zone Read:

 

And insert zone:

[Tired of Lurking 637]

lol so every play.

Put some hats on those motherfuckers, OL.

[pacman 7,328]

Yeah, not a lot of scheme needed to beat Baylor's defense, just execution.

[Katfid54 8,591]

Once we force Baylor to devote numbers to stop the run, a lot of other plays open up, like:

The RB wheel route:

 

Bubble Screens:

 

Fake Bubble Screens:

 

And as a bonus (given the lengthy discussion of "mesh" on this thread), here's what mesh looks like when thrown to a speedy WR running one of the crossing routes:

[Vertigo 20,266]

Can we wrap up all of these plays and send them to Herman and title them "touchdown plays"? I think our playbook needs a touchdown play section. 

[sushihorn 3,233]

Baylor doesn't have the talent to play press coverage with their corners.  They still do it anyway sometimes.

[hornian 5,205]

1 minute ago, sushihorn said:

Baylor doesn't have the talent to play press coverage with their corners.  They still do it anyway sometimes.

That was like me at a bar at 2 a.m. in college. 

[sushihorn 3,233]

1 minute ago, hornian said:

That was like me at a bar at 2 a.m. in college. 

We've all been there.  Sometimes the talent gap is just too great to press.  Then you just have to drop back and try to pick off a late or careless offering.

[Pogo 284]

1 minute ago, sushihorn said:

We've all been there.  Sometimes the talent gap is just too great to press.  Then you just have to drop back and try to pick off a late or careless offering.

I got really good at that by my senior year.

[Katfid54 8,591]

7 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Baylor doesn't have the talent to play press coverage with their corners.  They still do it anyway sometimes.

They have to, because they need their safeties to help their linebackers in the run game.  Basically, they need each play to be over in two seconds or less.  If it's not, something terrible has happened.

[chase25 2,048]

The most damning thing I saw was the fact that we left Ingram in the game as the lead blocker on the QB power all game, think that was a direct shot across the bow from our staff basically telling OU "We think y'all are pussies".

[Katfid54 8,591]

4 minutes ago, Texas25 said:

The most damning thing I saw was the fact that we left Ingram in the game as the lead blocker on the QB power all game, think that was a direct shot across the bow from our staff basically telling OU "We think y'all are pussies".

Or maybe it's because Ingram is really fucking good at football?

[Pogo 284]

7 minutes ago, Texas25 said:

The most damning thing I saw was the fact that we left Ingram in the game as the lead blocker on the QB power all game, think that was a direct shot across the bow from our staff basically telling OU "We think y'all are pussies".

And on the 3rd and 3 on the last drive, all Ingram had to do was help Beck double the LB because the DB he was responsible for was hiding behind said LB.  The ou safety was hiding behind the other LB as well.  They wanted nothing to do with having to tackle Sam by that point.  Our coaches weren't saying "We think y'all are pussies," they were saying, "We KNOW y'all are pussies!"

[Majorcholas 507]

1 hour ago, Katfid54 said:

Probably should've been flagged as an illegal formation.  But, fortunately, it wasn't, and it resulted in Sam running QB power for an 7-ish yard gain.

I think we did get called for illegal formation in the red zone on that same exact play later in the game.

[Katfid54 8,591]

Just now, Majorcholas said:

I think we did get called for illegal formation in the red zone on that same exact play later in the game.

We definitely did early in the game against OU in this formation. 

[sushihorn 3,233]

2 minutes ago, Katfid54 said:

We definitely did early in the game against OU in this formation. 

1st and goal on our opening drive IIRC.

[Pogo 284]

3 minutes ago, Katfid54 said:

We definitely did early in the game against OU in this formation. 

That was the first drive of the game.  We ran zone-read out of that unbalanced formation.  On the first play, the ou db shoves Johnson's helmet off and he has to leave.  Eagles comes in and doesn't line up on the LOS and we get flagged.

[chase25 2,048]

29 minutes ago, Katfid54 said:

Or maybe it's because Ingram is really fucking good at football?

Nothing against Ingram, but Young and Watson are both bigger backs. I also don't recall Ingram being used as a lead blocker on any QB power we have run previously, could be wrong. Usually you don't use what is perceived as your "elusive big play back" as a lead blocker. Wasn't stated to be a knock on Ingram.

[Huckleberry 32,699]

That was the first drive of the game.  We ran zone-read out of that unbalanced formation.  On the first play, the ou db shoves Johnson's helmet off and he has to leave.  Eagles comes in and doesn't line up on the LOS and we get flagged.

That was such bullshit. It was either during the play and therefore illegal hands to the face or it was after the play and therefore a personal foul or unsportsmanlike conduct. Hell, call offsetting personal fouls if you don't want to affect the game because they were going after each other. But not calling anything and making him miss the next play was the only possible way to screw that call up.

 

[Pogo 284]

Agreed.  At least Johnson came back in and immediately drew a PI, making it 1st & goal from the 5, which is where we were to begin with. 

 

[Tired of Lurking 637]

32 minutes ago, Texas25 said:

Nothing against Ingram, but Young and Watson are both bigger backs. I also don't recall Ingram being used as a lead blocker on any QB power we have run previously, could be wrong. Usually you don't use what is perceived as your "elusive big play back" as a lead blocker. Wasn't stated to be a knock on Ingram.

If our most explosive back is also our best blocking back, I'm failing to see how that is a negative.

And Ingram has displayed his willingness to take on blocks since Tulsa. He's easily become our best blocking back after Porter decided to go AWOL. 

[PsychMike 1,539]

1. I love wheel routes.My favorite was McCoy to Charles in 2006 Alamo Bowl. I know that it's well known that Charles is super fast, but it's still amazing to watch how quickly he gets into his route on the sideline despite being rerouted after the fake handoff.

 

2. Beck had such a great game. I wouldn't give him Offensive MVP for the game, but definitely Honorable Mention.

[JBJ 3,649]

10 minutes ago, Tired of Lurking said:

If our most explosive back is also our best blocking back, I'm failing to see how that is a negative.

And Ingram has displayed his willingness to take on blocks since Tulsa. He's easily become our best blocking back after Porter decided to go AWOL. 

He's not, but on Sam's first TD I had to rewind and check if that was Young or Porter.  That was a good block.

He got away with holding on Sam's 2nd.

[CycleTex87 2,953]

I haven't kept up maybe, but is Porter AWOL?  AWOL requires intent on the part of the AWOL person.  Or is this simply a coaches call on who plays better, who practices better, etc?

[Pato del Muerto 52,342]

1 hour ago, Texas25 said:

The most damning thing I saw was the fact that we left Ingram in the game as the lead blocker on the QB power all game, think that was a direct shot across the bow from our staff basically telling OU "We think y'all are pussies".

One time, on 3rd and short, I saw young in the game and lined up to the left of Sam. I says hey he’s in to lead for Sam, gonna be qb run left. It was, and they converted. 

Might have been the only qb run where the rb was a true lead through the poa blocker as opposed to a kickout that Ingram executed well several times. 

[Beau Vine 53,999]

17 hours ago, Treefidy said:

We actually played that quad better than they played ours.  One of the 4 is covered up and thus can't catch a pass beyond the LOS, we didn't actually wast a defender on him, though as he backed up someone came up to contain.  That play got blown for several other reasons.

I remember 1 play when we had quads, sooner had 2 guys covering our receiver who was covered up.  Mike stoops defense at its finest.  

Is it me, or is this the new formation of the year?  I kept seeing it in nearly every game I watched Saturday.  I don't think I saw anyone throw a screen to the covered guy in the quad, though. 

[Huckleberry 32,699]

It's been used heavily for the past few years by spread-to-run offenses. I first noticed it being used extensively by Malzahn at Auburn a while back. Not surprising that the slow-to-copycat nature of football means we're seeing it everywhere now.

And it's driven me mad for years watching defenses honor the ineligible receiver like he's eligible. There should be one man on that guy lined up a yard inside of him right on the line of scrimmage and watching the backfield, ready to jump a bubble screen throw or attack an outside run. There is zero threat of him running by you to catch a pass because he's not eligible.

[chase25 2,048]

23 minutes ago, Tired of Lurking said:

If our most explosive back is also our best blocking back, I'm failing to see how that is a negative.

And Ingram has displayed his willingness to take on blocks since Tulsa. He's easily become our best blocking back after Porter decided to go AWOL. 

Again, I'm not saying it as a negative, was just shocked to see Ingram in the game as a lead blocker when he hasn't been used in that situation all season, just though it was telling of what we thought of OU's physicality. I hope Ingram can be an all-purpose back going forward, it opens up a lot more opportunities out of that formation when you have him in there as oppposed to Watson or Young.

Maybe the way I worded my original statement made it sound like it was damning on Ingram, I was meaning it as damning on OU. Keaontay is 6 lbs heavier than Jamaal Charles, could you imagine using Jamaal as a lead blocker. Just surprised me to see Ingram, he blocked well except for the 2nd TD in which he got away with a hold. Hopefully he can continue to block well on that play cause it does open up other opportunities.

[Huckleberry 32,699]

From the Kick Six game in 2013:

imgur

[Beau Vine 53,999]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

It's been used heavily for the past few years by spread-to-run offenses. I first noticed it being used extensively by Malzahn at Auburn a while back. Not surprising that the slow-to-copycat nature of football means we're seeing it everywhere now.

And it's driven me mad for years watching defenses honor the ineligible receiver like he's eligible. There should be one man on that guy lined up a yard inside of him right on the line of scrimmage and watching the backfield, ready to jump a bubble screen throw or attack an outside run. There is zero threat of him running by you to catch a pass because he's not eligible.

I can't remember who it was, but one of the teams Saturday had an offensive lineman split out in the covered receiver position.  And so of course the defense stuck a man on him, 5 yards off, who just stood there and watched him. 

[Katfid54 8,591]

19 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I don't think I saw anyone throw a screen to the covered guy in the quad, though. 

That's because that would be illegal.

[Huckleberry 32,699]

Not if he moves back and it's a backward pass, like Oklahoma threatened on Saturday. That play is one of the next steps in the evolution of this formation.

[Katfid54 8,591]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Not if he moves back and it's a backward pass, like Oklahoma threatened on Saturday. That play is one of the next steps in the evolution of this formation.

Right.  It would have to be a lateral--not just a pass behind the line of scrimmage and not a "screen".  To get that guy the ball woudl require him to, basically, run backwards 5 yards from the snap, since he's starting on the line of scrimmage.

More interesting to me are packages where the covered up man is a decoy but the "right tackle" is an eligible receiver/tight end.  99% of the time, you can keep that guy into block.  But when defenses stop keying on him, he can do a lot of damage.

[Pogo 284]

17 minutes ago, Katfid54 said:

Right.  It would have to be a lateral--not just a pass behind the line of scrimmage and not a "screen".  To get that guy the ball woudl require him to, basically, run backwards 5 yards from the snap, since he's starting on the line of scrimmage.

More interesting to me are packages where the covered up man is a decoy but the "right tackle" is an eligible receiver/tight end.  99% of the time, you can keep that guy into block.  But when defenses stop keying on him, he can do a lot of damage.

I look forward to seeing all these things in the next 2 months.  Also, Beck running free down the seam at some point as well.

[Pato del Muerto 52,342]

So next season when former tight end Reese Moore is playing right tackle?

[Hiphopopotamos 20,865]

47 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I can't remember who it was, but one of the teams Saturday had an offensive lineman split out in the covered receiver position.  And so of course the defense stuck a man on him, 5 yards off, who just stood there and watched him. 

I know the Bears have done it a couple of times in the NFL this season with their LT split out wide as an ineligible 'WR'.  I'm assuming this was something Helfrich brought with him to the NFL.

[sushihorn 3,233]

52 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I can't remember who it was, but one of the teams Saturday had an offensive lineman split out in the covered receiver position.  And so of course the defense stuck a man on him, 5 yards off, who just stood there and watched him. 

Mike Leach did that almost 20 years ago at OU or Tech, probably both.  Called it that Ninja formation or something.