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Untrained "third party" overruled targeting call in USC-Wazzu game

Machinator

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Machinator

Machinator 32099

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Posted (edited)

If you thought Big 12 refs were bad, count your blessings that we don't have Pac 12 officiating: https://sports.yahoo.com/yahoo-sports-exclusive-document-shows-untrained-third-party-overruled-targeting-call-pac-12-game-040318946.html

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On the final play of the third quarter of Washington State’s game at USC on Sept. 21, Trojan quarterback JT Daniels scrambled and ducked to a knee. After he’d established himself as down, Washington State linebacker Logan Tago dove at him headfirst and initiated clear helmet-to-helmet contact. The play drew both a flag for roughing the passer and a review for targeting.

It was a clear enough call that both the in-stadium replay officials and the replay officials in the Pac-12’s command center in San Francisco ruled the play as a targeting penalty, according to an internal replay report obtained by Yahoo Sports. This call would have ejected Tago from the game. An independent veteran official who viewed the play also told Yahoo Sports it was “clear targeting.”

Targeting wasn’t called and Tago stayed in the game. The replay report obtained by Yahoo Sports states that “unfortunately a third party did not agree” with the call. That “third party” was Pac-12 general counsel and senior vice president of business affairs Woodie Dixon, Yahoo Sports sources have confirmed.

Dixon oversees football for the conference but is not a formally trained official. Dixon telephoned in his opinion that the play wasn’t targeting, sources said. According to the report, his opinion overruled both the trained officials in the stadium replay booth and in the league’s command center. 

The internal report was written by Gary McNanna, the replay official in the booth that night. His word choice indicates he was irked. (McNanna did not return calls from Yahoo Sports seeking comment.) The targeting call was obvious enough that ESPN analyst Greg McElroy used the word “shocked” once and some form of the word “surprise” three times when Tago didn’t get ejected. According to the document: “Both the replay booth and the command center agreed this was a targeting foul, but unfortunately a third party did not agree so the targeting was removed and we went with the ruling on the field of [roughing the passer] with no targeting. This didn’t play well on TV. Reversed my stoppage for [targeting] to not [targeting].”

The box labeled “Grader Comments” two slots over reads: “Correctly Handled.”

Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott issued a statement to Yahoo Sports denying there was a “third party” involved, as Dixon is typically in the command center and part of the replay collaboration team, in part because he has a full understanding of targeting. “Our instant replay supervisor [Bill Richardson] is the ultimate decision maker,” Scott said. “The misperception that in this case, the ultimate decision from the command center was made by someone other than the instant replay supervisor is a concern.”

According to officiating experts and college sports officials, the documented “third party” interference undermines both the Pac-12 officiating credibility and rhetoric surrounding player safety that’s tied to the focus on targeting.

The “third party” interference sparked outrage in the officiating world, where a buzz quickly spread about the incident.

“It’s unheard of,” said Terry McAulay, the rules analyst for NBC who spent 10 years as a coordinator of officials for the Big East and AAC. “I was appalled when I heard. The autonomy of officiating needs to be absolute. When there’s pressure from the outside brought to bear, it threatens the integrity of the game.”

Four of the five major conferences – ACC, Big 12, Pac-12 and SEC – have some sort of replay center at their home offices to consult on calls during game days. The Big Ten is the only major conference that does not. Pac-12 officials confirmed Dixon has a voice in the room on game day, but cannot make final decisions. The other three leagues with review centers, according to officials in those leagues, do not give the executive in charge of football a voice in the on-field action.

Fox officiating expert Mike Pereira once worked as a consultant for the Pac-12 and said he never felt the pressure of outside interference from Dixon or Scott. But he agreed that the mere notion that someone from outside can influence the officiating crew is damning.

 

Edited by Machinator
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Gaffords

Gaffords 757

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Posted

There shouldn't be "command centers" in the home offices that have any input during the game...   That's how you get the UT vs. OSU type of screw job.  

But a third party that can overrule the field and headquarters?!  Look Out Vegas! Someone is gonna clean the house.

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kopp0e

kopp0e 1135

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1 hour ago, Gaffords said:

There shouldn't be "command centers" in the home offices that have any input during the game...   That's how you get the UT vs. OSU type of screw job.  

But a third party that can overrule the field and headquarters?!  Look Out Vegas! Someone is gonna clean the house.

It would 've been a better deal if the P5 had an agreement for all conferences to use one uniformed set of rules for all officials between all leagues; and "neutral site games" between any leagues would use out of conference refs in any contest...

Maybe they'll be able to get it right someday..!

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satyanash

satyanash 14529

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I'm kind of amazed this story hasn't gotten more traction. This is a fucking vice president of business affairs who's over-ruling the calls of an entire on-field refereeing crew as well as the supposedly impartial central command booth. If anything, the referees should be in revolt right now.

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GreenspointTexas

GreenspointTexas 9649

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, satyanash said:

I'm kind of amazed this story hasn't gotten more traction. This is a fucking vice president of business affairs who's over-ruling the calls of an entire on-field refereeing crew as well as the supposedly impartial central command booth. If anything, the referees should be in revolt right now.

This. They need to go sweeps-week with this story

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Valmy77

Valmy77 13243

Posted
Posted (edited)

The  Big 10 officials have also had some amazing moments this season. https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/video/1332932675573?amp=true

We like to think the Big 12 officials are the worst around but really I think they are pretty typical...but I guess we should be glad we have not had a scandal like this yet.

Edited by Valmy77
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pacman

pacman 7359

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Posted (edited)

Let's be clear. The Big 12 officials are the worst around when Texas is on the field.

They may be moderately above average otherwise.

This may be changing with Herman, as he brings insight from officials so we can get more flags on the other team. See the PIs from the OU game, based 9n ad ice from officials.

Edited by pacman
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OU Sucks

OU Sucks 8866

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Posted
26 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

The  Big 10 officials have also had some amazing moments this season. https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/video/1332932675573?amp=true

We like to think the Big 12 officials are the worst around but really I think they are pretty typical...but I guess we should be glad we have not had a scandal like this yet.

I'm guessing they meant to call it on 83....maybe still a bad call, but not as egregious as calling it on the RB.

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OrangEngr

OrangEngr 1035

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, SDG said:

They made up for the op call at a crucial point in the fourth....

 

Defenseless player? Check

Forceable contact with head or neck? Check

Leading with the crown of the helmet? Check

Literally every single criteria for targeting was met. What in the actual fuck?

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Dnaguy

Dnaguy 12001

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Posted
1 minute ago, SDG said:

They made up for the op call at a crucial point in the fourth....

 

Ummmm. It was.

Quote

No player shall target and make forcible contact against an opponent with the crown (top) of his helmet. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting (See Note 1 below). When in question, it is a foul.

Note 1

 

Quote

 

No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent (See Note 2 below) with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting (See Note 1 below). When in question, it is a foul (Rules 2-27-14 and 9-6). (A.R. 9-1-4-I-VI)

Note 1: "Targeting" means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball. Some indicators of targeting include but are not limited to:

  • Launch—a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make forcible contact in the head or neck area
  • A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area, even though one or both feet are still on the ground
  • Leading with helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area
  • Lowering the head before attacking by initiating forcible contact with the crown of the helmet

 

  •  

Defenseless player definition:

 

Quote

 

Defenseless player (Rule 2-27-14):

  • A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
  • A receiver attempting to catch a forward pass or in position to receive a backward pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
  • A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
  • A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick, or one who has completed a catch or recovery and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
  • A player on the ground.
  • A player obviously out of the play.
  • A player who receives a blind-side block.
  • A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
  • A quarterback any time after a change of possession.
  • A ball carrier who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet-first


 

 

 

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Dnaguy

Dnaguy 12001

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What I can't understand is WHY the lawyer overruled in contradiction to the call on the field.

From a legal / CYA standpoint, wouldn't you always defer to targetting?

I'd understand it more if everyone thought it wasn't targetting and then the lawyer overrulled to say that it was.

I hope this is a watershed moment for the rule of targettign AND leads to the firing of Scott. This is rididculous. 

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closetojumping

closetojumping 62746

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Posted

They were talking about this on Full Ride on XM 84 this morning, at length. I think this story is going to get its legs, and it should. A fucking lawyer overruling plays from his corporate office not only doesn't make a lick of sense, it's hard to fathom. How was this ever intended by anyone? It's fascinating.

More fascinating still, to me at least, is how this Larry Scott fuck is able to maintain his commissioner position with the Pac 12. He is the fucking paragon of commissioner incompetence. He makes the dude from the Big 12 back in the day look like a wizard. Scott has wrecked anything and everything within his reach. Pac 12 money sports are underperforming. The money is second rate because of the tier 3 tv blunder. You have shit like this popping up on the regular. They voted against their own conference by disallowing the right for a 5-7 team to go to a bowl if invited under special circumstances. What on earth is this guy doing employed?

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Vertigo

Vertigo 20290

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Machinator said:

If you thought Big 12 refs were bad, count your blessings that we don't have Pac 12 officiating: https://sports.yahoo.com/yahoo-sports-exclusive-document-shows-untrained-third-party-overruled-targeting-call-pac-12-game-040318946.html

 

See there?! Uncle Red made a call to the booth when Sam was down in the end zone of the USC game! /aggy

 

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18550

Posted
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8 minutes ago, closetojumping said:

More fascinating still, to me at least, is how this Larry Scott fuck is able to maintain his commissioner position with the Pac 12. He is the fucking paragon of commissioner incompetence. He makes the dude from the Big 12 back in the day look like a wizard. Scott has wrecked anything and everything within his reach. Pac 12 money sports are underperforming. The money is second rate because of the tier 3 tv blunder. You have shit like this popping up on the regular. They voted against their own conference by disallowing the right for a 5-7 team to go to a bowl if invited under special circumstances. What on earth is this guy doing employed?

The funny part about this is how Larry Scott was portrayed during realignment. He was thought to be a genius visionary, and everybody was lauding the innovative nature of their TV deal. Now they are sucking hind tit in revenue and they can't sniff the playoffs. The cold truth about the Pac 12 is that nobody gives a shit about them in football unless USC is winning. Just like nobody gives a shit about the Big 12 unless Texas or Oklahoma is winning. During realignment, I was never a huge advocate of dumping the Big 12 and heading west, but in hindsight that dude should have bent over and done whatever Texas wanted, LHN be damned, to make that happen. 

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Sbbruin

Sbbruin 21861

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Pac-12 officiating has always been complete horseshit, but this is different.  How in the ever-loving fucking is the General Counsel anywhere near the replay officials?  Larry Scott is taking a shitload of heat for the P-12 TV contract and not getting it on Directv and a number of other providers, as well as the "Pac12 after dark" bullshit game times.  But this is so egregious it could, and maybe should, cost him his job.

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54254

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, closetojumping said:

More fascinating still, to me at least, is how this Larry Scott fuck is able to maintain his commissioner position with the Pac 12. He is the fucking paragon of commissioner incompetence. He makes the dude from the Big 12 back in the day look like a wizard. Scott has wrecked anything and everything within his reach. Pac 12 money sports are underperforming. The money is second rate because of the tier 3 tv blunder. You have shit like this popping up on the regular. They voted against their own conference by disallowing the right for a 5-7 team to go to a bowl if invited under special circumstances. What on earth is this guy doing employed?

Highest paid conference commissioner in the NCAA -- made $4.8M in 2016.

And he still can't get the Pac 12 Network on Directv or YoutubeTV or...

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sushihorn

sushihorn 3233

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3 hours ago, satyanash said:

I'm kind of amazed this story hasn't gotten more traction. This is a fucking vice president of business affairs who's over-ruling the calls of an entire on-field refereeing crew as well as the supposedly impartial central command booth. If anything, the referees should be in revolt right now.

Exactly.  Calls on the field should never be overruled as a business decision.

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pacman

pacman 7359

Posted
Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

I can't recommend being white nearly enough. It's great. You should really give it a go. 

You forgot the privileged part...

all being white does is keep you out of jail and in the poor middle class, mostly

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Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54254

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Forde:

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SAN FRANCISCO — For a drowning man, Larry Scott was rather upbeat.

The commissioner of the Pac-12 conference stood at a podium welcoming everyone to a basketball media day that may be the new gold standard for awkward timing. While Scott was trying to tread water, drumming up enthusiasm for an underachieving league, here’s what is pulling his credibility under:

* His league office was under direct fire for massively undercutting its own integrity after a Yahoo Sports report Wednesday tied a conference administrator to interfering in officiating replay review decisions. The revelation calls into question the Pac-12’s commitment to player safety, to fair play and to an officiating process that is free of meddling.

* Half of the 12-team conference now has been name-checked in the ongoing federal investigation of college basketball — more than any other league. (The Southeastern Conference is the current runner-up at five.) Assistant coaches at USC and Arizona were fired after being indicted, and will stand trial in 2019. During the ongoing trial in Manhattan, four other Pac-12 schools have been pulled in: Oregon, UCLA, Utah and Washington.

Attorney questioning, testimony under oath and evidence obtained by the FBI has steeped the league in scandal. Among the allegations and revelations: former Utah star Kyle Kuzma was paid through a third party by a financial adviser; former Washington star Markelle Fultz was paid through a third party; Oregon offered an “astronomical amount” of money to land Brian Bowen II, and assistant coach Tony Stubblefield paid $3,000 to the Bowens on an unofficial visit; UCLA offered money to the Bowens through an AAU coach; and all kinds of shenanigans pertaining to Arizona. Thus far the Wildcats have faced allegations involving head coach Sean Miller, former assistants Emanuel “Book” Richardson and Joe Pasternack, and former players DeAndre Ayton and Rawle Alkins — in addition to allegedly being part of the Great Brian Bowen Bidding War.

7204551ca87f00ab08d26bdadbc79a86
 
Pac-12 Commissioner Larry Scott speaks during the Pac-12 NCAA college basketball media day Thursday, Oct. 11, 2018, in San Francisco. (AP Photo/Eric Risberg)
More

Those are the headlines in the self-proclaimed Conference of Champions. It’s so bad off the field that nobody is even talking about the league’s swooning football product, 21-year streak without a basketball national title or the Pac-12 Network distribution debacle.

That’s a lot of lousy on the plate of the guy who has been the highest-paid commissioner in college athletics. Scott made $4.8 million in 2016, according to a USA Today report from May. Not only that, but nine other Pac-12 staffers made more than $450,000 in 2016, USA Today reported.

The league is trailing well behind its conference competition in revenue and revenue-sport performance. But not in salaries for execs.

Scott did his best to fall on the football officiating grenade Thursday morning, about 13 hours after it went off. The problem pertains to the intrusive role of Woodie Dixon, the general counsel and senior vice president of business affairs for the Pac-12 — with oversight of football and officiating — in replay reviews in the command center at the conference headquarters. An officiating report from the Washington State-USC game Sept. 21 said a third party basically overruled a targeting call against a Cougars linebacker — a third party Yahoo Sports identified as Dixon.

Anyone with a shred of knowledge, a shred of objectivity and a shred of concern for player safety would label that play targeting. Same with the hit later in the game by USC linebacker Porter Gustin on Washington State quarterback Gardner Minshew. To rule otherwise invites legitimate and highly accusatory questions about Dixon’s agenda — and why he was ever involved in the first place.

That’s why Scott knew he had to jump on this scandal Thursday morning. He acknowledged “a mistake” in having Dixon at all involved in replay review, and terminated that arrangement effective immediately.

 

“I’ve come to the conclusion that we’ve made mistakes in terms of our procedures involved with replay review in the command center,” Scott said. “We mixed administrative oversight and leadership with realtime replay review calls made by our experts on the field, in the stadium, and in the command center. Moreover, we’ve allowed for ambiguity about who’s got the final call and who makes the ultimate decisions in replay review, and what’s very important in any replay or any rule-making decisions is that there be clarity about who makes those decisions, and it’s a mistake that we’ve allowed ambiguity in who makes those decisions.

“We’re immediately changing procedures so that conference leadership responsible for football and responsible for officiating, while they’ll continue to play their important oversight role in those functions, they will have no involvement in the realtime decision making behind replay review. Those decisions will be solely in the purview of our replay officials at the stadium, in the command center, and on the field.”

That should have always been the case. The damage done to the league’s credibility will be hard to undo with a reactive ruling, but it’s the only move the Pac-12 could make other than the outright firing of Dixon. (Scott is adhering to the stance that the officials incorrectly interpreted Dixon’s opinion as a directive, believable or not.) For a conference that has long been ridiculed for officiating errors, this further erodes faith in those charged with enforcing fair play.

That lack of faith extends to basketball recruiting, now more than ever. Other conferences were long believed to be home to more hoops renegades than the Pac-12, but the league may have closed that gap.

Not that Scott was willing to acknowledge that Thursday.

“I’ve got no reason to believe that there’s a systemic problem,” he said. “Allegations have been made about a lot of schools nationally. We are eager to see what comes out of the trial, what comes out of NCAA investigation, as are our schools.”

Careful what you’re eager for, Larry.

Scott, like every other commissioner, had no interest in attending the trial in New York and hearing firsthand what’s happening in college basketball. Nobody in authority positions wants to know. They just want to cash the massive conference revenue checks and then feign surprise and disappointment when the corrupt enterprise is blown up.

Same with the millionaire coaches. This wasn’t exactly a group ready to stand tall in the face of scandal Thursday.

Response to questions ranged from stubborn silence (Arizona) to bland expressions of confidence (Oregon) to some saltiness (Utah). This was the first part of my exchange with Utes coach Larry Krystkowiak on Thursday:

Me: There was testimony in the federal investigation about an associate of Kyle Kuzma being paid by a financial adviser. What have you been able to learn about that about what may have happened, and what’s the school doing to investigate?

Krystkowiak: I’m not going to talk at all about Kyle Kuzma. That’s a silly question. I wish I could help you, but today’s not the day to talk about that. I can’t comment much on anything I don’t know, and I’m 100 percent clueless about anything that’s going on and leave it at that.

Me: All due respect, I don’t think it’s a silly question. Half of the schools in the league have been implicated.

Krystkowiak: With all due respect, you don’t think it’s a silly question?

Me: No.

Krystkowiak: OK.

Me: Half the schools in the league have been implicated in one form or fashion in this investigation. Is there a problem in the league or any concern about the league from a compliance standpoint?

Krystkowiak: I’m not going to comment. You kind of know where I stand. We’re focused on our team. We’re not a part of any federal investigation, and I haven’t been informed of it. I think there’s different investigations and people in different positions. This is not – I don’t believe Kyle Kuzma is in the same category as some of those in the federal investigation, so we’ll leave it at that.

In response to a different reporter’s question later, Krystkowiak underscored the commonplace nature of the corruption that has gripped college basketball. For all the sport’s apologists and cheerleaders who desperately want to believe that these are unsubstantiated allegations from sketchy characters, inaccurately smearing the game, hey, plenty of coaches will tell you this is how the system worked for a long time.

“I don’t think it’s any big secret,” Krystkowiak said. “It’s not blowing anybody away. It’s public for the first time. I think there’s a lot of understanding of things that have been happening for a long time.”

People like Brian Bowen Sr. and Christian Dawkins and T.J. Gassnola may be con artists — but that doesn’t mean they’re lying about their roles in getting college basketball players paid. What they’re saying under oath, or on wiretap, carries more weight than the no-comments or vague denials heard here at Pac-12 media day.

The weight of those words in Manhattan, plus the anvil that is the fresh officiating scandal, plus the lack of performance on the football field and basketball court, might be enough to sink Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott. No matter how upbeat he tried to sound Thursday.

 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28788

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Modessit said:

We've always thought that conference headquarters were influencing officials to keep their best-chance-to-make-playoffs teams ranked high. This seems to confirm that suspicion.

Which team is the Pac12's "best-chance-to-make-playoffs" in this scenario? 2-loss USC?

Edited by WhatTheBuck
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