Jump to content

2017-18 Spurs Thread: Probably no buckets for Kawhi

Radical Larry

By Radical Larry
in Basketball

 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 1.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

PilotsError
PilotsError

Fuck Pops.   He came out as anti second amendment.  Hope he collapses on the court.

Radical Larry
Radical Larry

1 down, 15 to go.

Braff Zacklin
Braff Zacklin

That's a man. He's 40.

Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18575

Posted
Posted

That game was like drinking an ice cold beer to wash down the shit sandwich of a season we've been fed. We will probably follow it up with warm piss chaser on Tuesday night, but it was nice to have something positive happen. This franchise really needed that considering everything else that has been going on.

Fun game, fun win, and 20 years from now some idiot is going to be arguing with me that Manu Ginobili wasn't that good by citing a bunch of meaningless statistics that won't come close to doing justice to how great of a basketball player he truly was. Tim Duncan is the best player ever to wear a Spurs uniform but Emmanuel David Ginobili is the greatest Spur of all time.

And two other things: (1) You can't be the first team to come back from 0-3 if you don't win game 4 (yeah, right) and (2) Spurs probably win game 2 of this series if they come anywhere close to shooting the ball like they did yesterday. Golden State hasn't been playing that well on defense. The Spurs just haven't been able to throw it in the ocean. Their shooters have struggled off and on this year, but they aren't nearly as terrible as they have been the first three games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Amos Moses

Amos Moses 795

Posted
Posted

Everyone still on the Manu high ... in case you missed this:

An Ode to Manu

Spoiler

An ode to Manu: The Warriors reflect, provide favorite memories of Spurs legend Manu Ginobili

 

By Anthony Slater 

SAN ANTONIO — In the final game of his 15th season, Manu Ginobili — the league's most legendary bench player — was put in the starting lineup for the first time in four years. It felt like a tip of the cap and an acknowledgment of the end, a salute to the fans more than a strategic advantage.

But Manu, then 39, balled out on the Warriors in Game 4 of 2017 Western Conference finals at AT&T Center, putting up 15 points and seven assists as the shorthanded Spurs clawed to stay alive after falling behind 3-0 in the series. They couldn't. The Warriors were too much. They swept them with enough dominance that the game had been decided before the final few minutes.

So at the 2:25 mark, Gregg Popovich subbed Ginobili out, presumably for the final time. The crowd rose for a loud, extended standing ovation, many in Argentine Ginobili jerseys. Kevin Durant turned and clapped in unison with the fans. Steph Curry, at the free-throw line, stepped back and delayed his routine to give Manu's swan song a few more seconds.

“It just felt like that was it,” Steve Kerr recalled in a phone interview Friday. “I thought that was his last game.”

Kerr didn't coach from the sidelines that series. He stayed back in the locker room, dealing with health issues. But as the game ended and his team arrived to celebrate another trip to the NBA Finals, Kerr disappeared down the tunnel in search of Manu. Way back in 2003, Kerr played his final NBA season in San Antonio. It was Ginobili's rookie year with the Spurs. After Game 4 was over last year, Kerr found his former teammate.

“I just felt like: Wow. This is a Hall of Fame career coming to a close,” Kerr remembered. “He even hinted that he wasn't coming back. He told me, 'I have to get away for a month and feel right about whatever decision I make. But right now, I would say I probably would not come back.'”

Two months later, Ginobili decided on another season. The love of the game lured him back to San Antonio and, at age 40, in Year 16, he remains so productive that a 17th season is already on the table, should he accept. But no decision has been made. Insiders insist he's leaning against coming back.

And if Ginobili opts for retirement, Sunday provides a bit of deja vú. The Warriors, up 3-0 again, can exterminate the Spurs and put an abrupt end to Ginobili's career — or, at the very least, raise the question in that arena whether they're seeing Ginobili on the court for the final time.

So in advance, The Athletic chatted with a number of Warriors who have battled with and against Ginobili over the years, bringing up his name and consistently finding two themes in their memory bank: big respect for what he's done, but an ounce of heartbreak about what he's done to them. Let's start with the heartbreak.

Quinn Cook was 10 in 2003. He lived in Washington, D.C., but loved those dynastic Lakers teams. They won the title when he was 7, 8 and 9. So this is how it must be, he figured. His favorite team wins the title every year.

But Ginobili arrived as an electric 25-year-old Argentinian rookie that season, an import by way of Italy, where he was a legend in the Euroleague. Zaza Pachulia was a teenager then, playing for Ülkerspor, a Turkish team. Ginobili starred for Kinder Bologna, winning two Italian League MVPs and the Euroleague title in 2002, bulldozing Pachulia's team along the way.

“I had never seen a lefty player who had all that, everything,” Pachulia said. “Even back then, he was amazing.”

The Spurs squad he joined was a perennial 50-win team, but hadn't made it out of the West in three years. They were predictable and becoming a bit stale. The way Kerr remembers it, Ginobili infused needed life into them.

“We were a vanilla team,” Kerr said. “Very successful, but we were like a football team that just ran the ball every play, played great defense, won the special teams battle. There was nothing exciting about us. Manu came up and sort of shook up the organization in a good way, shook up Pop, changed the way he looked at the game. We needed that creativity, that fire.”

Those Spurs, suddenly with a slashing lefty creator off the bench, got over the hump, beating the Nets in the Finals. But their biggest test came in the second round, slaying those three-peat Lakers. In that series, Ginobili had double-digit points off the bench in four of the six games.

Heartbreak for Cook, the 10-year-old fan.

“He always killed us,” Cook said. “I remember crying when they beat us.”

A few months after winning his first NBA title, Ginobili was forced to attend the rookie symposium. Because of his transition from overseas, he'd missed the event the offseason before. The league made him show up to this one, a 26-year-old champ surrounded by wide-eyed 19 to 22-year-olds. David West, the 18th pick out of Xavier, was one of them.

“Everyone was scared to talk to him,” West said. “He was a legend already. Already had this aura about him.”

Thirteen years later, West would team up with Ginobili in San Antonio as two of the league's most respected vets. But nine seasons before that, in the 2008 second round, West's hungry Hornets were on the verge of taking out the Spurs. They were up 3-2 in the series, but Ginobili bounced off the bench to hit six 3s and score 25 points in a Game 6 win.

Not to worry. Game 7 was in New Orleans. West and Tyson Chandler held Tim Duncan to a brutal 5 of 17 shooting night. West had 20 points. Chris Paul had 14 assists. The formula to win was there. But Ginobili, for a second straight elimination game, threw daggers into the young Hornets' hearts, scoring a game-high 26, including six in the final minute.

Heartbreak for West.

“He really … man,” West shook his head. “He really beat us in Game 7. Big shots, timely shots. Big plays, a big 3 late.”

Thirteen months after that, the Warriors drafted Curry, the most important step in their massive rebuild. Then, they were just a team the Spurs bashed a few times every year. By March 2013 — Curry's fourth season — the Warriors had lost 28 consecutive times in San Antonio.

But the franchise had finally built some momentum. They won 47 games in 2012-13 to nudge into the playoffs as the sixth seed. In Curry's first taste of the postseason, they upset the Nuggets in the first round, advancing to face those wily Spurs, where a quick extermination was expected.

But the Warriors rode confidently into San Antonio. They went up big in Game 1, holding a big 16-point cushion with under four minutes left. But the Spurs ended regulation on a shocking 18-2 run to send it to overtime.

The thriller wandered deep into double overtime. The Warriors trailed by three with a minute left. But Curry floated in a layup with 32 seconds to go and then found Kent Bazemore for a layup with only three seconds left.

“You're going to have to fact-check it, but I think it was tied,” Curry said. “I swear I hope we weren't up.”

They were. Bazemore's layup put the Warriors up one. They were on the verge of erasing that scarring collapse and escaping with a stunning Game 1 win. All they needed to do was defend a last-second inbound. Whoops.

“They ran some crazy inbound play and we got a little mixed up,” Curry recalled, as if reliving a nightmare. “Kent Bazemore tried to close out, Manu hit this rainbow 3 right in front of our bench with like a second left.”

Game over. Heartbreak for Curry.

“Kind of our first, my first, experience of being in San Antonio and seeing those guys, having won so many championships, that first taste of that,” Curry said.

The next postseason was supposed to be the Thunder's turn to get over the top. In 2013, Oklahoma City was the top seed, but Russell Westbrook went down with a crippling knee injury in Round 1. The next season, they were healthy, though, and Durant was better than ever, just named MVP for the first time.

The Thunder advanced to the 2014 Western Conference finals. They were locked in a 2-2 tie heading back to San Antonio, but appeared to be the younger, fresher team, having won Games 3 and 4.

The fifth game was crucial. In it, Ginobili, then 36, had 19 points and six assists in 21 lethal minutes. He was a +15. The Spurs won, then went to OKC with a chance to close it out. But the Thunder kept battling.

With 32 seconds left and the game tied, Durant swooped in for a crashing layup to give them the late lead, then one of the biggest shots of his career.

“When I made that driving layup, put us up two, I thought we were going to Game 7 in San Antonio,” Durant said.

But the Spurs went to old reliable on the next possession, freeing up Ginobili on a Tim Duncan down screen that picked off Derek Fisher. Standing alone — eerily similar to that dagger he stuck through the Warriors hearts one playoff season earlier — Ginobili rainbowed through the big 3.

“That hit us in the gut right there,” Durant said.

Heartbreak for Durant.

(The shot comes around the 1:50 mark of the below video. You'll hear a familiar voice on the TNT broadcast: Steve Kerr.)

Ginobili is a touchstone for all of this era's greats. If you've played high-leverage playoff basketball over the past two decades, you've run into Ginobili. You may have eliminated him. But he's probably played a big part in eliminating you.

For some, that would create bitterness. But with Ginobili, when you chat with these Warriors, there's zero frost. They speak about his game, his style, his personality and his impact with reverence.

“Changed the culture of basketball, in my opinion, even if it doesn't get talked about,” Durant said. “Changed what the Sixth Man (award) means. A lot of people think he's from Europe, which he's not. South America. But all the guys I played with from Venezuela, Argentina, all the guys in the league just bring that toughness and that fight. Manu's one of those guys that means more to the game than people think.”

Ginobili was the first person Shaun Livingston remembers doing the eurostep.

“At least the first noteworthy big name,” Livingston said. “It was just so crafty. Also, his whole coming down the hill, where he threw the ball out in front of him. Man, I tried to work on that for like six months and finally I was just, like, you know what, this ain't my game.”

When Draymond Green entered the league, he was miscast as a small forward. So his first year, he locked horns with some of the great wings, from Durant to LeBron James. But between his first and second year, Green remembers, when people would ask who was the toughest person he had to guard, he'd always answer Ginobili.

“I struggled with nobody as much as I struggled with Manu,” Green said. “It was just, like … it felt like he was going downhill at the big, but moving sideways. It was so weird. He was just so clever.

“There was one play where he came off the screen-and-roll and I got back in front of him. Then he hit me with this little hesitation (shakes his shoulders) and ended up downhill going at the big.

“I'm trailing thinking I can get the block. But as he's still going downhill, he's moving to the left. Most people moving to the left you can get back in front of — he's moving to the left, but STILL going downhill. I'd never seen it. Me and whoever the big was were just like, damn, what?”

During West's lone season in San Antonio, he gravitated toward Ginobili in his spare time, conversing on a variety of topics, calling Ginobili a “thinker” with a “good world view.” There are times where Curry will sit and just watch clips of him talking.

“I just love hearing his interviews,” Curry said. “He's very thorough with his thoughts and detailed. You can tell he just loves the game.”

Sunday may be Ginobili's final NBA moment. The Warriors may usher him into retirement — this time for good. But if they do, just like last year, they'll recognize and honor greatness as it walks out the door.

“I've probably told you this story before,” Kerr said, referring back to those 2003 Spurs, when Ginobili was a rookie. “He came down in a game, threw a behind-the-back pass on a pretty basic play and Pop just couldn't believe it, was so upset.

“We got back to the locker room and he was like: 'Manu, what are you doing? What is that behind-the-back pass?' Manu looked at him and said: 'But, Pop, this is what I do.' Pop started laughing and was just like: 'OK, fine, I guess that's what you do.'

“There was just this acceptance from Pop where he just had to let go of his natural coaching instinct, which I have, too. Why would you ever throw a behind-the-back pass? Just make the right play over and over again.

“Most coaches feel that way. But there was an acceptance from Pop of, OK, I have to let this guy be who he is because he's phenomenal and if I let him make three mistakes a game, he's going to make 12 amazing plays and that's a pretty good ratio.

“That set the tone for the organization to make the next step, advancing to the next stage of the Spurs identity, where rather than the Duncan, Robinson low post game, they became more of a ball movement, perimeter passing team. Manu and Tony Parker epitomized that. But especially Manu because he was such a risk-taker.”

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hate

Hate 20145

Posted
Posted (edited)

I picked a good time to watch my first full game of the season.  I'll echo what everyone else has said about Ginobili being among the all time greatest Spurs.  I'll never forget that stretch in the mid 2000's where he went for back to back 40+ games.  I can't remember who they were against or what year, but I remember watching him just go off and score in every possible imaginable way.  He was knocking down 3's from everywhere and finishing at the rim with some of the most ridiculous moves I've ever seen.  Part of me wonders what might have been had they brought him over from Europe a year or two earlier, but I will always been grateful that Manu found his way to the Spurs.

 

And here is PTR's tribute to Manu's 20 best games.

https://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/7/29/9062817/20-best-games-manu-ginobili-career

Edited by Hate
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dingleberryswitzer

dingleberryswitzer 2724

Posted
Posted

Ok, serious Pop talk.  This will be the 3rd game he's missed.  Now that's his choice, and I have no problem with him doing so; he can take all the time he needs. 

So there is obviously a chance Pop calls it a career and hangs it up, and no one but him knows the odds.  He could make that decision now or two months from now. Again, no problem with him doing that.

Problem for the Spurs is that their assistants are getting interviews.  Even if only messina gets a job, he might take udoka or  Becky with him.  Spurs have gone through a ton of assistants, the one constant being Pop, and Spurs may be left with nothing on the bench in a few weeks.  That'll just add fuel to the trade kawhi crap that is still lurking.  Just saying, it could be a long drama filled summer for spurs fans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3931

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

Ok, serious Pop talk.  This will be the 3rd game he's missed.  Now that's his choice, and I have no problem with him doing so; he can take all the time he needs. 

So there is obviously a chance Pop calls it a career and hangs it up, and no one but him knows the odds.  He could make that decision now or two months from now. Again, no problem with him doing that.

Problem for the Spurs is that their assistants are getting interviews.  Even if only messina gets a job, he might take udoka or  Becky with him.  Spurs have gone through a ton of assistants, the one constant being Pop, and Spurs may be left with nothing on the bench in a few weeks.  That'll just add fuel to the trade kawhi crap that is still lurking.  Just saying, it could be a long drama filled summer for spurs fans.

It's hard to know what a loss like this will do to a person.  Carefully laid out plans are often thrown out the window, so no idea what he'll do but I always thought he'd coach until and through the 2020 Olympic games.  Maybe that changes now, but that's what I think.  As much as I like Messina, have no issues with him moving on.  It's his time.  I'm not gonna sweat losing these assistants at all....

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
chainsaw

chainsaw 9873

Posted
Posted

I think Messina sticks around if Pop goes.  He knows the front office better and would not be starting from scratch in terms of developing relationships with the players.  Kawhi may be on his way out, but there is a young core and patient fans that you can't really have outside of San Antonio.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
dingleberryswitzer

dingleberryswitzer 2724

Posted
Posted
59 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I think Messina sticks around if Pop goes.  He knows the front office better and would not be starting from scratch in terms of developing relationships with the players.  Kawhi may be on his way out, but there is a young core and patient fans that you can't really have outside of San Antonio.

Yea in theory messina sticks around, but if he gets hired on Friday and pop quits on Monday he won't reneg on his deal.  I guess we might get some hints if messina takes himself out of the running soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hate

Hate 20145

Posted
Posted

IMO, Pop doesn't want anything to distract from the team or draw attention to himself.  If Pop comes back to the sidelines now, every story will be about Pop being on the sidelines days after his wife's passing, and if there is anyone in the world that would hate that being talked about like that it would be Pop.  I imagine the next time we see Pop will be at some US team function this summer or when training camp begins next season.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites
chainsaw

chainsaw 9873

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

If Pop hangs it up, they bring Bud back. It's a no brainer. They are talking about him for the Knicks job, but NY is too dumb to hire him. I think he ends up back in San Antonio. His (ex) wife and kids are still here.

Also, FWIW, Kawhi's mother was at game 4 Sunday. 

Is she in "the group"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
texasstrong12

texasstrong12 4668

Posted
Posted

SIAP but Kawhi's mom was apparently at game 4. Now Kawhi's sister is saying he's eager to return to the court when healthy. http://news4sanantonio.com/sports/spurs-zone/kawhi-leonards-sister-says-kawhi-still-recovering-from-injury-eager-to-return-to-court

Maybe people are making this more complicated than it really is. What if Kawhi isn't healthy and that's really the only issue? 

Either way, not sure how I feel about giving a supermax to a guy that might have health issues. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3931

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, texasstrong12 said:

SIAP but Kawhi's mom was apparently at game 4. Now Kawhi's sister is saying he's eager to return to the court when healthy. http://news4sanantonio.com/sports/spurs-zone/kawhi-leonards-sister-says-kawhi-still-recovering-from-injury-eager-to-return-to-court

Maybe people are making this more complicated than it really is. What if Kawhi isn't healthy and that's really the only issue? 

Either way, not sure how I feel about giving a supermax to a guy that might have health issues. 

Exactly..... if he's not healthy then it would be organizational suicide to offer him the super max.  It may be anyway.  If a guy takes up over a 1/3 of your salary cap, he has to be a top 10 player and really should be a top 5 player.  Best ability is availability.  The decisions around Kawhi are super complicated and could resonate for a decade for the organization.  We can all hope for the best and I'm sure we do, but I'd prefer to see him balling out before any level of 200 million + are being offered....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
 Share
Go to topic listing


Football ... Basketball ... Baseball ... Other Sports ... Futbol ... 🤫995🤫 ... Gambling ... Movies & TV ... Music ... Hobbies ... Lulz ... Food & Travel ... Daily Texan ... Business and Markets ... Cloak Room ... Help ... For Sale ... Board Discussion ... Subscribe!... Donate!... Advertise... COOKIE MONSTER!

×
×
  • Create New...