2018-19 NBA Season Thread

[Underdog 28755]

KD miserable playing for the Warriors or just with Dray?  

[aggie08 21511]

2 minutes ago, Underdog said:

KD miserable playing for the Warriors or just with Dray?  

I think Dray has made every Warrior miserable at some point, including coaches. That's who he is. Nothing a 5 game winning streak can't fix.

That said, this definitely feels different than their usual spats. There's been a lot of stories "leaked" from the local media over the past week (i.e. the story about how the Warriors are known for having no holds barred film sessions where they call each other out, but KD tends to take his criticisms personally). Small stories that local guys usually sit on to protect their team (and their own access)...until they know that the player is gone anyway, and those stories start magically coming out.

[C-Man 27239]

I think Dray has made every Warrior miserable at some point, including coaches. That's who he is. Nothing a 5 game winning streak can't fix.
That said, this definitely feels different than their usual spats. There's been a lot of stories "leaked" from the local media over the past week (i.e. the story about how the Warriors are known for having no holds barred film sessions where they call each other out, but KD tends to take his criticisms personally). Small stories that local guys usually sit on to protect their team (and their own access)...until they know that the player is gone anyway, and those stories start magically coming out.

One of the reasons I haven’t been a KD fan since he joined the Warriors. He’s used to being handled with kid gloves. Every slight — no matter whether it comes from Kerr or Steph or Vic Mackey on Twitter — is responded to with equal vigor.

I don’t know if it’s GSW or Dray irritating him. He chased — and got — his rings. And he took shit for taking the easy road. I’m sure that bothered him too. I can see him going somewhere else to either be “the guy” or somewhere less stressful like hometown Washington where he’ll be an instantaneous god.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18550]

3 hours ago, aggie08 said:

I think it's safe to say that no player has ever had the offensive impact that Steph has without the ball in his hands.

I'm not sure exaclty what "without the ball in his hands" means. It's not like people double team him without the ball. Don't get me wrong, the guy definitely defies the laws of physics with his shooting and forces you to guard him in places where other players don't need to be guarded, but it's not like they had to widen the lane for him like they did Wilt. 

[ztejas 43524]

I don't think KD is miserable I think he's frustrated. He's still out there trying to play winning basketball - they just have nothing to work with without Curry, Dray and Boogie.

Their entire roster is built around 5 players. When 3 of those 5 are missing this is what happens. It's like the Cavs last year. No matter how good LeBron is - if the supporting cast isn't doing shit they are going to lose about as much as they win.

Iggy just straight up isn't impactful anymore. Livingston is old. Damion/en Lee and Jones are barely NBA players. Jordan bell has somehow disappeared. Fucking Jonas Jerebko and Kevon Looney are starting for them.

Their only above average presence off the bench is Quin Cook - but when Klay and Durant go 19/51 from the field they aren't winning anything.

Swap Curry and Durant right now and they still wouldn't be that good.

Edited November 19, 2018 by ztejas

[Jhawk 1075]

On 11/16/2018 at 11:02 PM, linux said:

His problem is mental he was double clutching freethrows, if he has to take his mind off with mindless repetition plus he creates muscle memory, this is not a big deal.

 

 

I read a theory from a doc that he has a very specific nerve injury in his back/shoulder area.  The guy was very careful to say that he hasn't examined Fultz personally but based on looking at his back when he is shooting now relative to how he was shooting in college he believed that there is a nerve problem that wasn't allowing the scapula to move the way a natural shot motion should have it move.  He mentioned another player that had the injury and he never recovered.

It seemed credible to me but then again it was on the internet so who knows.  I'm guessing that the sixers know exactly what is wrong with him and the reason he hasn't been traded is that they know he is worth nothing.  They're just waiting to let his contract run out.

[Jhawk 1075]

2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

I think Dray has made every Warrior miserable at some point, including coaches. That's who he is. Nothing a 5 game winning streak can't fix.

That said, this definitely feels different than their usual spats. There's been a lot of stories "leaked" from the local media over the past week (i.e. the story about how the Warriors are known for having no holds barred film sessions where they call each other out, but KD tends to take his criticisms personally). Small stories that local guys usually sit on to protect their team (and their own access)...until they know that the player is gone anyway, and those stories start magically coming out.

ESPN posted a story about how Beal and Wall aren't untouchable right now.  Might be a signal fire by the Wizards to see if there is a trade out there that gets KD moving faster than the end of the year.

[aggie08 21511]

37 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm not sure exaclty what "without the ball in his hands" means. It's not like people double team him without the ball. Don't get me wrong, the guy definitely defies the laws of physics with his shooting and forces you to guard him in places where other players don't need to be guarded, but it's not like they had to widen the lane for him like they did Wilt. 

With player movement trackable, it's all pretty quantifiable now. No one in the league runs around more than Steph. Maybe he's not actively double-teamed, but he always has multiple pairs of eyes on him. The Warriors offense, in a nutshell, is designed to overwhelm the defense with an onslaught of actions until someone makes a mistake. Every time Steph runs off a pick, changes directions, crosses a teammate, or just moves with purpose is an opportunity for a botched switch, a late hedge, running two guys to Steph leaving the paint wide open, etc.. No one draws that kind of attention/fear. 

The quality of shots (based on location and nearest defender) are completely different with Steph on the court, and every player's shooting percentages reflect that.

All the best Warriors' lineups include Steph. Even lineups that shouldn't work on paper--Steph, Dray, JaVale, Iggy, McCaw, for example--still score at an elite level because Steph is his own one-man team spacing.

[aggie08 21511]

34 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

It seemed credible to me but then again it was on the internet so who knows.  I'm guessing that the sixers know exactly what is wrong with him and the reason he hasn't been traded is that they know he is worth nothing.  They're just waiting to let his contract run out.

So the Sixers were just running him out there as a starter for shits and giggles?

[SilasCoade 2622]

43 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I read a theory from a doc that he has a very specific nerve injury in his back/shoulder area.  The guy was very careful to say that he hasn't examined Fultz personally but based on looking at his back when he is shooting now relative to how he was shooting in college he believed that there is a nerve problem that wasn't allowing the scapula to move the way a natural shot motion should have it move.  He mentioned another player that had the injury and he never recovered.

It seemed credible to me but then again it was on the internet so who knows.  I'm guessing that the sixers know exactly what is wrong with him and the reason he hasn't been traded is that they know he is worth nothing.  They're just waiting to let his contract run out.

Wrong

[ztejas 43524]

18 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

No one draws that kind of attention/fear. 

Multiple players do - actually. Steph is just better at hurting you when you don't check him. 

[ztejas 43524]

11 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Wrong

Cool. Let us know when you feel like making an actual contribution to the discussion. 

[Kermit 3158]

1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

ESPN posted a story about how Beal and Wall aren't untouchable right now.  Might be a signal fire by the Wizards to see if there is a trade out there that gets KD moving faster than the end of the year.

Wait, are you suggesting what I think you’re suggesting? Because Wall is untradeable. No one will ever take that contract. At least not until it’s in its final year. That’s the absolute worst contract in all of sports. 

[ztejas 43524]

Trading Durant would be absolutely insane but were it to happen I don't see an offer the Wiz would be capable of making.

If KD is on the block some teams that could put a package together that he would consider going to would be both LA teams, Boston, NYK, maybe Miami just because Riley is always a wildcard.

Also - I don't think he is interested in playing for the Wiz as romantic as it would be.

Regardless - its getting murkier by the day. Much less confident in my Knicks FA prediction at this point.

[aggie08 21511]

 

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

Multiple players do - actually. Steph is just better at hurting you when you don't check him. 

No, they don't. At least not off the ball. Not even close. Steph shoots from angles, distances, and quantities--with defenses draped all over him--that the best shooters in the NBA never dreamed of. And that's to say nothing of his handles, passing, and ability to create with the ball. He has at least two sets of eyes on him as soon as he crosses half court, and the defense has to guard out to 35 feet. That creates spacing and panic that is unique only to him.

This isn't an opinion; like I said, his impact on the offense and his teammates is quantifiable. Here's a graphic from the end of the 2017 season, Steph's "worst" season under Kerr (he made up for it by being lights out in the playoffs) that shows how teams shoot with and without their superstar on the floor. Kawhi, Harden, LeBron and Russ all had worthy MVP seasons (the latter two well known for having offenses that crumble without them), but Steph's average impact on his teammates' true shooting % (an average of +8.3% with him on the court) is over twice the 2nd highest impact in that group (LeBron). To put that difference into context: Klay had a 59.2% true shooting percentage that year...Andre Roberson was 8.2 points lower at 51%. To be fair, none of those other guys (except for Russ) are point guards, so creating easy shots for others (be it with the ball or without) is his job...he just does it better than anyone else.

[ztejas 43524]

23 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

 

No, they don't. At least not off the ball. Not even close. Steph shoots from angles, distances, and quantities--with defenses draped all over him--that the best shooters in the NBA never dreamed of. And that's to say nothing of his handles, passing, and ability to create with the ball. He has at least two sets of eyes on him as soon as he crosses half court, and the defense has to guard out to 35 feet. That creates spacing and panic that is unique only to him.

This isn't an opinion; like I said, his impact on the offense and his teammates is quantifiable. Here's a graphic from the end of the 2017 season, Steph's "worst" season under Kerr (he made up for it by being lights out in the playoffs) that shows how teams shoot with and without their superstar on the floor. Kawhi, Harden, LeBron and Russ all had worthy MVP seasons (the latter two well known for having offenses that crumble without them), but Steph's average impact on his teammates' true shooting % (an average of +8.3% with him on the court) is over twice the 2nd highest impact in that group (LeBron). To put that difference into context: Klay had a 59.2% true shooting percentage that year...Andre Roberson was 8.2 points lower at 51%. To be fair, none of those other guys (except for Russ) are point guards, so creating easy shots for others (be it with the ball or without) is his job...he just does it better than anyone else.

That's fine. I've had KD vs Steph arguments too many times at this point. I'm tired of rehashing the same shit over and over again. The discussion never goes anywhere. 

[Reynolds Woodcock 4788]

Whichever poster put up the VYmyhero signal in this thread should feel very bad. What a beating. 

[aggie08 21511]

6 minutes ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

Whichever poster put up the VYmyhero signal in this thread should feel very bad. What a beating. 

Yep, I deserve that. My apologies. It's shit that I enjoy talking about (the Warriors and advanced metrics that don't go too far into the weeds), but I realize that it's a beating for everyone else. I'm too lazy to make a Warriors' thread like the ones on shaggy, but I don't need to be shitting on this one. 

[UTDD 362]

3 hours ago, aggie08 said:

With player movement trackable, it's all pretty quantifiable now. No one in the league runs around more than Steph. Maybe he's not actively double-teamed, but he always has multiple pairs of eyes on him. The Warriors offense, in a nutshell, is designed to overwhelm the defense with an onslaught of actions until someone makes a mistake. Every time Steph runs off a pick, changes directions, crosses a teammate, or just moves with purpose is an opportunity for a botched switch, a late hedge, running two guys to Steph leaving the paint wide open, etc.. No one draws that kind of attention/fear. 

The quality of shots (based on location and nearest defender) are completely different with Steph on the court, and every player's shooting percentages reflect that.

All the best Warriors' lineups include Steph. Even lineups that shouldn't work on paper--Steph, Dray, JaVale, Iggy, McCaw, for example--still score at an elite level because Steph is his own one-man team spacing.

In a nutshell, this is basically their dominance and are there are very advanced analytics that specifically track the quality of shots (based on hot zone location, space from defender, pass accuracy to shooter, etc) of every single player on the floor based on the actions of Curry and the attention generated from it.  In simpler terms, one might call it the gravity or gravitational impact of one player on the four other offensive players and five defensive players on the floor.  As good as LeBron and Durant are, they do not quite impact the other nine players in the same fashion, the last player like that was maybe Shaq.

[UTDD 362]

10 hours ago, Thatguy said:

  So true. What made that team special pre Durant was their bench play. There was just no let up. However, they were beatable. Much the same as a Curry-less Durant led team was beatable. Durant is a superior player to Curry and always has been. This debate is as silly as the claim that maybe Curry was better than Lebron circa 2015/2016. Curry has one thing he does, and when he is clicking he is as good as anyone ever. However, on his off nights he has no other go to. Lebron and Durant don't have to have a great shooting night from the arc to murder you.

Agreed about the bench a lot, they are not the same team they were in 2016 which was much healthier and better top to bottom taking out Durant.  I also think Durant is a better overall player than Curry in more variables (different rosters, coaches, etc) and the reason I also have LeBron at such a gap over any other player in this era is for the same reason (I don't think for example that any other player in NBA history except Jordan could have won the 2016 Finals with that Cavs roster) I totally disagree however about Curry in 2016, that was one of the greatest seasons in NBA history from a number of metrics and analytics and the team record reflected that as well.  To be fair, they did lose the Finals though.

Many people value different stats, but a few that many agree on some level reflect something but not everything are things like PER, BPM, W/S per 48, and VORP.  All reflect some level of value and impact but all are flawed as well because they are only specifically measuring what they measure and nothing else.  Having said that, 2016 was very magical for Curry in that he led the league in basically every meaningful category in those arenas.  His PER that year is 8th all-time in NBA history, only four other players have ever cracked the Top 12: Wilt (1,2,6), Jordan (3,5,7,11), LBJ (4,7,11), and Anthony Davis (12th).  His OBPM is first-all time in NBA history.  His overall BPM was 5th all-time in NBA history, only three other players are in the Top 12 club there -- Westbrook (1), LBJ (2,4,6,7,8), and Jordan (3,6).  W/S per 48 8th all-time.  Only other players Top 12 ever: Kareem (1,2,4), Wilt (3), LBJ (5,7,11,12) Jordan (6,9,10), and Curry at 8.  VORP he was 12th, that club all-time is Westbrook (1), Jordan (2,3,8), LBJ (4,5,9), David Robinson (6), Kareem (7), and Chris Paul (10).

I think a lot of these stats are flawed in terms of how they favor certain things over others (especially looking at Westbrook, his analytics I believe overvalue his true impact) but by that same token, Curry's season that year was simply incredible.  It is fair to say it was an offensive GOAT level season that will likely not be seen again for a long time.  The Warriors are a true GOAT level team to me because they have recognized how to utilize Curry in a way that impact all the other nine players in a way that has not been seen in a long time.  That doesn't mean he is just a better player than Player A or B etc but it does mean that if you have him on your team, you can build the right roster/system to dominate the winning column in ways that are unique to him even over some better players.

[52-80 19206]

3 hours ago, aggie08 said:

 

No, they don't. At least not off the ball. Not even close. Steph shoots from angles, distances, and quantities--with defenses draped all over him--that the best shooters in the NBA never dreamed of. And that's to say nothing of his handles, passing, and ability to create with the ball. He has at least two sets of eyes on him as soon as he crosses half court, and the defense has to guard out to 35 feet. That creates spacing and panic that is unique only to him.

This isn't an opinion; like I said, his impact on the offense and his teammates is quantifiable. Here's a graphic from the end of the 2017 season, Steph's "worst" season under Kerr (he made up for it by being lights out in the playoffs) that shows how teams shoot with and without their superstar on the floor. Kawhi, Harden, LeBron and Russ all had worthy MVP seasons (the latter two well known for having offenses that crumble without them), but Steph's average impact on his teammates' true shooting % (an average of +8.3% with him on the court) is over twice the 2nd highest impact in that group (LeBron). To put that difference into context: Klay had a 59.2% true shooting percentage that year...Andre Roberson was 8.2 points lower at 51%. To be fair, none of those other guys (except for Russ) are point guards, so creating easy shots for others (be it with the ball or without) is his job...he just does it better than anyone else.

i thought russ made all of the his teammates worse ?

[Message Board User 12395]

Don't have a sub to theathletic, but this is consistent with what I've heard and read.

[Vic Mackey 47093]

Celtics looked better last year with Rozier in place of Kyrie and Gordon Hayward not playing. 

[Message Board User 12395]

14 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Celtics looked better last year with Rozier in place of Kyrie and Gordon Hayward not playing. 

Yeah so far this season hayward and Brown have been Kobe-esque.  They'll almost assuredly get better as the season progresses but I have to believe the C's will make one or more moves before the trade deadline.

[linux 1660]

9 hours ago, Jhawk said:

I read a theory from a doc that he has a very specific nerve injury in his back/shoulder area.  The guy was very careful to say that he hasn't examined Fultz personally but based on looking at his back when he is shooting now relative to how he was shooting in college he believed that there is a nerve problem that wasn't allowing the scapula to move the way a natural shot motion should have it move.  He mentioned another player that had the injury and he never recovered.

It seemed credible to me but then again it was on the internet so who knows.  I'm guessing that the sixers know exactly what is wrong with him and the reason he hasn't been traded is that they know he is worth nothing.  They're just waiting to let his contract run out.

I am not saying he will recover his shot or form, just that the FT hot potato smack is overrated

[aggie08 21511]

Six guys in NBA history to follow a 60 point game with a 40 point game:

Wilt, Pistol Pete, MJ, T-MAC, Kobe, and...Kemba.

Is that good? That seems good.

Edited November 20, 2018 by aggie08

[ztejas 43524]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Six guys in NBA history to follow a 60 point game with a 40 point game:

Wilt, Pistol Pete, MJ, T-MAC, Kobe, and...Kemba.

Is that good? That seems good.

Kemba always been a baller.

Cool list for him to join.

[ztejas 43524]

1 hour ago, Message Board User said:

Yeah so far this season hayward and Brown have been Kobe-esque.  They'll almost assuredly get better as the season progresses but I have to believe the C's will make one or more moves before the trade deadline.

Right because fuck the 2nd greatest shooting guard of all time.

[Chapo 104]

Wall contract is horrible but there are alot of bad owners out there that wants to win now. Watch out for the Suns

[Goo Punch 4275]

John Wall has never been a winning basketball player. There are guys like Barkley, Iverson, Stockton, Malone, and Miller who may have never won, but who certainly qualify as winning players. They were simply born too close to Michael jordan's birth. Then you have players like Gilbert Arenas, Melo, Wall, and more, who have never won in large part because they aren't winning players. Whether it's that they don't uplift the play of those around them, they don't play defense, they aren't leaders, whatever, John Wall is among that group of guys who just aren't a part of winning teams.

[Thatguy 8762]

15 hours ago, aggie08 said:

 

No, they don't. At least not off the ball. Not even close. Steph shoots from angles, distances, and quantities--with defenses draped all over him--that the best shooters in the NBA never dreamed of. And that's to say nothing of his handles, passing, and ability to create with the ball. He has at least two sets of eyes on him as soon as he crosses half court, and the defense has to guard out to 35 feet. That creates spacing and panic that is unique only to him.

This isn't an opinion; like I said, his impact on the offense and his teammates is quantifiable. Here's a graphic from the end of the 2017 season, Steph's "worst" season under Kerr (he made up for it by being lights out in the playoffs) that shows how teams shoot with and without their superstar on the floor. Kawhi, Harden, LeBron and Russ all had worthy MVP seasons (the latter two well known for having offenses that crumble without them), but Steph's average impact on his teammates' true shooting % (an average of +8.3% with him on the court) is over twice the 2nd highest impact in that group (LeBron). To put that difference into context: Klay had a 59.2% true shooting percentage that year...Andre Roberson was 8.2 points lower at 51%. To be fair, none of those other guys (except for Russ) are point guards, so creating easy shots for others (be it with the ball or without) is his job...he just does it better than anyone else.

   This is why I hate statistics. That stat is based on different players on different teams in different offenses. The only true way to measure that stat would be to take Steph out and put another guy in. One could just as easily say that the reason Steph has been so effective is because Klay is standing over there. The only true stat is how a team fares with or without you on the court. I also put a lot on how you perform under playoff pressure. Many offenses tend to bog down in the playoffs after being free-flowing all season. James Harden is a fine example of that.

   Regardless, one day GSW is gong to break up the band and we will see how good these guys are when it's just them. We have seen that with KD. We have seen that with Bron.

  

[HookEm 2467]

John Wall has never been a winning basketball player. There are guys like Barkley, Iverson, Stockton, Malone, and Miller who may have never won, but who certainly qualify as winning players. They were simply born too close to Michael jordan's birth. Then you have players like Gilbert Arenas, Melo, Wall, and more, who have never won in large part because they aren't winning players. Whether it's that they don't uplift the play of those around them, they don't play defense, they aren't leaders, whatever, John Wall is among that group of guys who just aren't a part of winning teams.

Melo may not be a "winner" now, but he once was. He obviously won the 2003 NCAA Title as a freshman and tourney MVP. He was a key players on 3 Olympic gold medal teams. He took the Nuggets from 17 wins to 54 wins.

[Jhawk 1075]

Is KD trying to become the most hated person in the NBA? Don’t know how to post twitter here but he walked up to the cameraman row under the basket and says “watch the fucking game and shut the fuck up”. 

At this point, for all his talent, KD is one of the biggest bitches to ever play the game. Can’t believe how much of a  baby brat he is. 

[Goo Punch 4275]

24 minutes ago, HookEm said:

3 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

John Wall has never been a winning basketball player. There are guys like Barkley, Iverson, Stockton, Malone, and Miller who may have never won, but who certainly qualify as winning players. They were simply born too close to Michael jordan's birth. Then you have players like Gilbert Arenas, Melo, Wall, and more, who have never won in large part because they aren't winning players. Whether it's that they don't uplift the play of those around them, they don't play defense, they aren't leaders, whatever, John Wall is among that group of guys who just aren't a part of winning teams.

Melo may not be a "winner" now, but he once was. He obviously won the 2003 NCAA Title as a freshman and tourney MVP. He was a key players on 3 Olympic gold medal teams. He took the Nuggets from 17 wins to 54 wins.

Right, and I think that at the amateur level with his talent gap and Syracuse's awkward style that a guy like Melo (supremely talented player compared to most at the time) can ultimately win the grand prize. It's a similar situation in the olympics as well, and to be fair there's a reason the phrase "Olympic Melo" exists. And while he did improve the Nuggets, he never came close to leading a team to a title, and I can't even picture hi doing so under different/better circumstances. I can't picture Melo leading an NBA team to a title, even with considerable help.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Goo Punch

[52-80 19206]

20 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Is KD trying to become the most hated person in the NBA? Don’t know how to post twitter here but he walked up to the cameraman row under the basket and says “watch the fucking game and shut the fuck up”. 

At this point, for all his talent, KD is one of the biggest bitches to ever play the game. Can’t believe how much of a  baby brat he is. 

hes a UT alum so youre not allowed to trash him.  any slight to his personality is an offense to his actual basketball talent.

[HookEm 2467]

Quote

And while he did improve the Nuggets, he never came close to leading a team to a title, and I can't even picture hi doing so under different/better circumstances. 

I hate taking the role of a Melo apologist, but the 08-09 Nuggets team was very close to a title.  They lost in the Western Conference finals to LA in six games, but two of those losses were by a combined 9 points -  and LA went on to win the title in 5 over Orlando.  If Denver wins that series against LA, they no doubt win the title.  So Melo was basically 9 points from a title that year.

Outside of Carmelo, that Denver team was pretty crappy.  A past-prime Chauncy was their 2nd best player.  Then you had JR Smith, Nene, Kenyon Martin, Chris Anderson as the core.  That basically looks like a LeBron Cleveland team.  In fact, put that team in the east and they make the Finals every year just like LeBron. 

Now as far as "what-if" scenarios, imagine if Detroit had drafted Carmelo instead of Darco Milicic back in 2003.  The very next year they won the NBA title even without him.  The year after that, they lost in the Finals in 7 games to San Antonio.  Then they lost in the Eastern Conference finals (in six games) each of the next three years.  Carmelo proved he could play with Chauncy in Denver.  I have no doubt that if he went to Detroit they would have won at least 2 titles, and maybe as many as 3-4.  He would have given them exactly what they needed to be an all-time great team.

[aggie08 21511]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

This is why I hate statistics.

I like stats that can directly confirm or refute what you see with your own eyes. All the WORP, RPM, OBPM, win shares, adjusted wins--crap that I can't even begin to tell you how they calculate--does nothing for me. But the player tracking stuff is really cool. You can actually see the quality of looks that a team gets with one of their players on/off the floor based on the nearest defender and location of those shots. How opposing players shoot with so-and-so as their nearest defender. Hustle stats like shot contests and deflections that don't show up in a normal box score. You can watch a Wizards game, note that Wall doesn't seem like he runs a lot, and quickly learn that only Dirk Nowitzki spends more time walking or standing still on a basketball court. Etc.

Like with anything, you're subject to your own confirmation bias, but player tracking seems to have less room for interpretation.

[BigOrange1 6442]

30 minutes ago, HookEm said:

I hate taking the role of a Melo apologist, but the 08-09 Nuggets team was very close to a title.  They lost in the Western Conference finals to LA in six games, but two of those losses were by a combined 9 points -  and LA went on to win the title in 5 over Orlando.  If Denver wins that series against LA, they no doubt win the title.  So Melo was basically 9 points from a title that year.

Outside of Carmelo, that Denver team was pretty crappy.  A past-prime Chauncy was their 2nd best player.  Then you had JR Smith, Nene, Kenyon Martin, Chris Anderson as the core.  That basically looks like a LeBron Cleveland team.  In fact, put that team in the east and they make the Finals every year just like LeBron. 

Now as far as "what-if" scenarios, imagine if Detroit had drafted Carmelo instead of Darco Milicic back in 2003.  The very next year they won the NBA title even without him.  The year after that, they lost in the Finals in 7 games to San Antonio.  Then they lost in the Eastern Conference finals (in six games) each of the next three years.  Carmelo proved he could play with Chauncy in Denver.  I have no doubt that if he went to Detroit they would have won at least 2 titles, and maybe as many as 3-4.  He would have given them exactly what they needed to be an all-time great team.

yeah the nuggets were awesome that year.

[conVINCEd 21469]

 

[aggie08 21511]

If Melo was drafted by the Pistons, he would have rarely played those first two years because Larry Brown. Rookies--especially ones with distaste for defense--don't play.

He'd obviously still be a much better long term solution than a chain-smoking European.

[SilasCoade 2622]

Melo is a slightly better version of Antoine Walker. He had promise but squandered it. Now he's well past his prime and it's a little sad.

[Jhawk 1075]

1 hour ago, Llogg said:

Melo is a slightly better version of Antoine Walker. He had promise but squandered it. Now he's well past his prime and it's a little sad.

The biggest difference between the two is that everyone in the league seems to like melo.  You won't hear one guy trash him, even guys like Amare' who used the twilight of their careers to chase a ring with him won't do anything but praise him.  I remember when Melo "recruited" Amare' and said openly that he doesn't need 20-25 shots a game.  Then after about 2 weeks into the season he was complaining in the media that he wasn't getting his shots.  It truly is amazing.

Melo is probably the most "slipped through the cracks" guy ever in the NBA.  He should never have been a "premier" player after his first years in NYC.  But everyone just kept buying the hype.

Melo has played under seven general managers and by my count 7 basketball operations executives and not one of them has looked at him and said "I don't think this guy can contribute to a championship team."  Basketball executives truly are the dumbest execs in sports.

[kopp0e 1135]

On 11/19/2018 at 9:14 AM, Underdog said:

KD miserable playing for the Warriors or just with Dray?  

Aww man, this is like the ol' Gumby show, but with NBA players...

 

[HookEm 2467]

Quote

Melo is a slightly better version of Antoine Walker. He had promise but squandered it.

I still think that is a little harsh.  Antoine Walker was a career chunker and terribly inefficient player. He was lazy and out of shape and generally not liked as mentioned above.  In his best two years he averaged 21.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 4.9 apg.  Pretty good... but then factor in his 39% from the field and you see why he was hated.  

Carmelo is a 10-time All-Star and 7x All-NBA performer. He finished top-5 in PPG six times including leading the NBA in 2013.  Over his best two-year stretch, he averaged 27.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 3.6 apg while shooting 48% from the field and 80% from the line.  His best PER was 24.8.  He is also 100% certain to make the hall-of-fame.  

People for some reason want to remember this version of Carmelo that shoots 40% from the floor and averages 13 ppg.  The league has thankfully moved on from his iso-dominant style,  but for a significant chunk of time, Carmelo was one of the best players on the planet.  For a 10-year stretch, he averaged 26.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.2 apg at 46% FG, 22.1 PER, 74.9 WS.  I don't think you will find more than 10 players who have done better than that over a 10-year stretch over the last 20 years.

All that said, I'm not really a Carmelo fan, lol.

[ztejas 43524]

7 hours ago, Jhawk said:

Is KD trying to become the most hated person in the NBA? Don’t know how to post twitter here but he walked up to the cameraman row under the basket and says “watch the fucking game and shut the fuck up”. 

At this point, for all his talent, KD is one of the biggest bitches to ever play the game. Can’t believe how much of a  baby brat he is. 

That post on /r/nba got 22k upvotes and everyone thought it was hilarious. And that is a community that takes every chance they can get to shit on Durant. 

And - if you watch the video - he isn't being vitriolic at all. He calmly walks over, leans down, and says "watch the fucking game and shut the fuck up"

https://streamable.com/8ve2s

Also - NBA players talk shit to fans ALL the time. I wanted to expound on your comment because you framed it poorly, but I don't need to defend Durant here. He isn't the first guy to do that and certainly won't be the last. It's just funny banter to a fan that probably had it coming. Who cares. 

[ztejas 43524]

9 minutes ago, HookEm said:

I still think that is a little harsh.  Antoine Walker was a career chunker and terribly inefficient player. He was lazy and out of shape and generally not liked as mentioned above.  In his best two years he averaged 21.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 4.9 apg.  Pretty good... but then factor in his 39% from the field and you see why he was hated.  

Carmelo is a 10-time All-Star and 7x All-NBA performer. He finished top-5 in PPG six times including leading the NBA in 2013.  Over his best two-year stretch, he averaged 27.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 3.6 apg while shooting 48% from the field and 80% from the line.  His best PER was 24.8.  He is also 100% certain to make the hall-of-fame.  

People for some reason want to remember this version of Carmelo that shoots 40% from the floor and averages 13 ppg.  The league has thankfully moved on from his iso-dominant style,  but for a significant chunk of time, Carmelo was one of the best players on the planet.  For a 10-year stretch, he averaged 26.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.2 apg at 46% FG, 22.1 PER, 74.9 WS.  I don't think you will find more than 10 players who have done better than that over a 10-year stretch over the last 20 years.

All that said, I'm not really a Carmelo fan, lol.

Thank you. Antoine Walker doesn't sniff Melo's jockstrap. 

[hobbes2702 13049]

On 11/19/2018 at 11:23 AM, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm not sure exaclty what "without the ball in his hands" means. It's not like people double team him without the ball. Don't get me wrong, the guy definitely defies the laws of physics with his shooting and forces you to guard him in places where other players don't need to be guarded, but it's not like they had to widen the lane for him like they did Wilt. 

They didn’t widen the lane but Steph is the reason that teams take 40 3s. He changed the game forever

[BigOrange1 6442]

5 hours ago, Jhawk said:

The biggest difference between the two is that everyone in the league seems to like melo.  You won't hear one guy trash him, even guys like Amare' who used the twilight of their careers to chase a ring with him won't do anything but praise him.  I remember when Melo "recruited" Amare' and said openly that he doesn't need 20-25 shots a game.  Then after about 2 weeks into the season he was complaining in the media that he wasn't getting his shots.  It truly is amazing.

Melo is probably the most "slipped through the cracks" guy ever in the NBA.  He should never have been a "premier" player after his first years in NYC.  But everyone just kept buying the hype.

Melo has played under seven general managers and by my count 7 basketball operations executives and not one of them has looked at him and said "I don't think this guy can contribute to a championship team."  Basketball executives truly are the dumbest execs in sports.

you should get a job as a basketball executive and school all of these idiots.  you're clearly a high level basketball mind.

[hobbes2702 13049]

7 hours ago, Llogg said:

Melo is a slightly better version of Antoine Walker. He had promise but squandered it. Now he's well past his prime and it's a little sad.

If by slightly better you mean in the hall of fame vs one of the most inefficient players of all time.

[Vic Mackey 47093]

you should get a job as a basketball executive and school all of these idiots.  you're clearly a high level basketball mind.

Yet everything he said is spot on. Because execs in sports are never wrong. Well at least not as wrong as you are constantly.