2018-19 NBA Season Thread

[MNLonghornFUKM 8985]

Wolves lose to a team that sat their best player all 4Q lmao.

[Message Board User 12409]

1 hour ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Wolves lose to a team that sat their best player all 4Q lmao.

So how soon until KAT wants out?

[aggie08 21853]

AD is such a weird choice for a dude to hold a personal vendetta against. Yet here we are.

[aggie08 21853]

2 hours ago, Message Board User said:

So how soon until KAT wants out?

If KAT demands out with 5 full years left on his deal, they're going to have to blow up the existing CBA.

[SilasCoade 2622]

I wonder if there is no hope for NO to convince AD to stick around in the offseason. If Minnesota goes into fire sale mode, they might be able to pick up KAT to pair with AD, providing similar punch to what they started to have with Cousins last year.

[aggie08 21853]

3 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I wonder if there is no hope for NO to convince AD to stick around in the offseason. If Minnesota goes into fire sale mode, they might be able to pick up KAT to pair with AD, providing similar punch to what they started to have with Cousins last year.

KAT didn't even negotiate an option year on his max 5-year extension. He's not going anywhere for a long, long time.

Edited February 9, 2019 by aggie08

[d2o 1603]

14 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

If KAT demands out with 5 full years left on his deal, they're going to have to blow up the existing CBA.

He wouldn't have any leverage and any team that wanted him would trade for him since they wouldnt have to worry about him leaving for 5 yrs.   More than likely MIN would tell him to eat a dick and they aren't trading him.

Edited February 9, 2019 by d2o

[SilasCoade 2622]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

He wouldn't have any leverage and any team that wanted him would trade for him since they wouldnt have to worry about him leaving for 5 yrs

That's what I was thinking. The right team would find the contract extension nice for the security it provides them. NO could offer Randle and a pick or two in the off season. Try to get Rozier and Klay Thompson in free agency. Guys like Marcus Morris, Danny Green, Rodney Hood, and Patrick Beverly would be nice free agent back up plans. Not sure if it would be enough to get AD back in the fold though.

[d2o 1603]

1 minute ago, Llogg said:

That's what I was thinking. The right team would find the contract extension nice for the security it provides them. NO could offer Randle and a pick or two in the off season. Try to get Rozier and Klay Thompson in free agency. Guys like Marcus Morris, Danny Green, Rodney Hood, and Patrick Beverly would be nice free agent back up plans. Not sure if it would be enough to get AD back in the fold though.

If NO is asking for a kings ransom for AD when he only has a yr left I can't imagine what it would take to a 22 yr old All-NBA caliber player with 5 full yrs left on his deal.     I can say pretty confidently that Randle and a pick or two won't even be close to enough.

[goatsaag 281]

54 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

If KAT demands out with 5 full years left on his deal, they're going to have to blow up the existing CBA.

If the Clippers can trade Blake Griffin like they did, who cares if a player demands a trade in a similar contract situation?

[Patrick Bateman 3988]

54 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I wonder if there is no hope for NO to convince AD to stick around in the offseason. If Minnesota goes into fire sale mode, they might be able to pick up KAT to pair with AD, providing similar punch to what they started to have with Cousins last year.

I always thought it would be interesting if the Cans tank enough and get lucky with the ping pong balls and got the #1 pick and Zion if AD would have a change of heart..... I really want to see that.

[aggie08 21853]

46 minutes ago, d2o said:

If NO is asking for a kings ransom for AD when he only has a yr left I can't imagine what it would take to a 22 yr old All-NBA caliber player with 5 full yrs left on his deal.     I can say pretty confidently that Randle and a pick or two won't even be close to enough.

Shit, Randle and every pick that New Orleans is allowed to offer might not even come close. KAT is the dream of every small market team: a young top 15ish player locked down for 5 years. There's no guarantee that Zion--much less some random lottery pick--ever turns into that. Minnesota has half a decade to convince him to stay beyond that.

Edited February 9, 2019 by aggie08

[SilasCoade 2622]

38 minutes ago, d2o said:

If NO is asking for a kings ransom for AD when he only has a yr left I can't imagine what it would take to a 22 yr old All-NBA caliber player with 5 full yrs left on his deal.     I can say pretty confidently that Randle and a pick or two won't even be close to enough.

Real talk, KAT is not on AD's level by a fair margin.

[aggie08 21853]

38 minutes ago, goatsaag said:

If the Clippers can trade Blake Griffin like they did, who cares if a player demands a trade in a similar contract situation?

By "demand," I meant in a Jimmy Butler kind of way, where his behavior makes it impossible to keep him on the roster. That would bring wholesale changes if a dude who signed a huge deal less than a year ago can still force his way out whenever he wants. 

[d2o 1603]

50 minutes ago, goatsaag said:

If the Clippers can trade Blake Griffin like they did, who cares if a player demands a trade in a similar contract situation?

Exactly, they sold him on being the face of the franchise to get him to re-sign and traded him 6 mos later.     Similar situation in TOR with Derozen.   That's what I was talking about earlier.    Its nuts to call players disloyal, selfish or any other type of ridiculous labels when teams do that kind of stuff.    If its a "business" when teams do that its the same thing when a player  makes the decision that they no longer wanna be a part of an organization.

[d2o 1603]

39 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Real talk, KAT is not on AD's level by a fair margin.

Meh, that's honestly not even the point.  Offering MIN Randle and a pick is getting you laughed off the phone.

Edited February 9, 2019 by d2o

[Michael Knight 13239]

5 hours ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Wolves lose to a team that sat their best player all 4Q lmao.

Jahlil Okafor played in the 4th

[SilasCoade 2622]

10 minutes ago, d2o said:

Meh, that's honestly not even the point.  Offering MIN Randle and a pick is getting you laughed off the phone.

Two firsts and a proven quality young starter gets you laughed off the phone? 

[aggie08 21853]

3 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Two firsts and a proven quality young starter gets you laughed off the phone? 

Yes. Definitely. Tobias Harris just went for two firsts (including Miami's) and a few other nice pieces...and his contact expires in 5 months, not 5 years.

[hobbes2702 13513]

16 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Two firsts and a proven quality young starter gets you laughed off the phone? 

For KAT on a 5 year deal? Yes.

[d2o 1603]

20 minutes ago, Llogg said:

Two firsts and a proven quality young starter gets you laughed off the phone? 

For an All-NBA player with 5 yrs left on his contract that isn't anywhere near his prime??   Absolutely!!!!

Edited February 9, 2019 by d2o

[Kermit 3166]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

Exactly, they sold him on being the face of the franchise to get him to re-sign and traded him 6 mos later.     Similar situation in TOR with Derozen.   That's what I was talking about earlier.    Its nuts to call players disloyal, selfish or any other type of ridiculous labels when teams do that kind of stuff.    If its a "business" when teams do that its the same thing when a player  makes the decision that they no longer wanna be a part of an organization.

But, organizations ARE called disloyal, poorly run, insensitive or any other type of label when they run their business in a manner that undermines that relationship. Both sides are expected to hold up their end of the bargain. You make it sound as if there are no negative repercussions for the team. 

[SilasCoade 2622]

You guys are definitely higher on KAT than I am. He's a nice player, but he's not a cornerstone. More Horford than Embiid, IMO.

[hobbes2702 13513]

Al Horford has never averaged 20 PPG in a season and has only ever averaged 10 RPG once in his career. KAT has done 20 and 10 three times in four years. The year he didn’t was his rookie season and he averaged 18 and 10.

[Dutchrudder 11249]

Yeah, he's more Minnesota Kevin Love to me. Great stats and plays hard on bad teams with high usage, but doesn't have what it takes to be a defining piece of a championship team.

[d2o 1603]

2 hours ago, Kermit said:

But, organizations ARE called disloyal, poorly run, insensitive or any other type of label when they run their business in a manner that undermines that relationship. Both sides are expected to hold up their end of the bargain. You make it sound as if there are no negative repercussions for the team. 

 

What negative repercussions were there for the Clips or the Raps in the examples given?

 

[aggie08 21853]

26 minutes ago, Llogg said:

You guys are definitely higher on KAT than I am. He's a nice player, but he's not a cornerstone. More Horford than Embiid, IMO.

I'm not a huge fan of KAT. When there's as much noise as there has been about things like effort and desire, that's worrisome. 

Regardless, he's a top 15-20 player already, and a top 10 talent. The caliber of player that Minnesota has no chance in hell of signing in free agency, and who they'd be incredibly lucky to draft again anytime soon. And he was willing to sign for a full 5 years, no player option required.

Trading him for a player who's probably not a starter on a true contender and a couple of lottery (at best) picks would be madness.

[aggie08 21853]

4 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

What negative repercussions were there for the Clips or the Raps in the examples given?

 

The Clippers were ridiculed pretty hard for their faux jersey hanging ceremony once they traded Blake. Blake isn't particularly well liked among players, but a bunch of guys commented on how they did him dirty.

I bet free agents ask them about it this offseason (well, maybe not Kawhi because what ground does he have to stand on). West and co. are going to have to convince guys that Blake was signed on under the old regime, so they can't be held liable for that. They may even have to promise top tier guys no trade clauses. It might not matter a ton, but when players are splitting hairs trying to make their decision, it could matter just enough.

We'll also see how much insight Mr. Davis has into his son's thought process regarding the Celtics. That was a textbook example from Ainge of buying low and selling high--undoubtedly they right move--and it still rubbed some people the wrong way.

[d2o 1603]

20 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

The Clippers were ridiculed pretty hard for their faux jersey hanging ceremony once they traded Blake. Blake isn't particularly well liked among players, but a bunch of guys commented on how they did him dirty.

I bet free agents ask them about it this offseason (well, maybe not Kawhi because what ground does he have to stand on). West and co. are going to have to convince guys that Blake was signed on under the old regime, so they can't be held liable for that. They may even have to promise top tier guys no trade clauses. It might not matter a ton, but when players are splitting hairs trying to make their decision, it could matter just enough.

We'll also see how much insight Mr. Davis has into his son's thought process regarding the Celtics. That was a textbook example from Ainge of buying low and selling high--undoubtedly they right move--and it still rubbed some people the wrong way.

A few people clowned them about the jersey hanging thing but the trade was generally applauded for getting out of BG"s contract.  

Now among the players those kind of moves are looked down on.   Generally, the reaction to those players speaking out are/were similar to the reaction that LJB got for speaking out on the Harrison Barnes trade.    "Players need to shut up.   They make a whole lot of money."    There is very very rarely the kind of fan/media reaction for moves like that compared to the hate that players get when they decide its time to move on.

Derozen was seriously hurt by his trade.  He just stated the yr before when signing his deal that he wanted to stay in TOR instead of going being another great player in Laker history    When he was traded, the fan base was basically, "thanks........but we got Kawhi!!!!"

[SilasCoade 2622]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

I'm not a huge fan of KAT. When there's as much noise as there has been about things like effort and desire, that's worrisome. 

Regardless, he's a top 15-20 player already, and a top 10 talent. The caliber of player that Minnesota has no chance in hell of signing in free agency, and who they'd be incredibly lucky to draft again anytime soon. And he was willing to sign for a full 5 years, no player option required.

Trading him for a player who's probably not a starter on a true contender and a couple of lottery (at best) picks would be madness.

I guess I don't see him as a top 20 player. Plus, I'm using Paul George as the benchmark here. I get that OKC traded for him with no guarantee of a long term deal, which affects things and is why draft picks must be part of any hypothetical deal. But in that PG13 deal Indiana got a young quality starter and a role player for a guy that's much more impactful than KAT. Yes, Oladipo blew up, but no one would have taken that as a given before the trade.

[hobbes2702 13513]

Those situations aren’t remotely comparable in any way.

[d2o 1603]

24 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I guess I don't see him as a top 20 player. Plus, I'm using Paul George as the benchmark here. I get that OKC traded for him with no guarantee of a long term deal, which affects things and is why draft picks must be part of any hypothetical deal. But in that PG13 deal Indiana got a young quality starter and a role player for a guy that's much more impactful than KAT. Yes, Oladipo blew up, but no one would have taken that as a given before the trade.

We all have our biases.   You clearly are letting yours cloud your judgement.

[SilasCoade 2622]

2 hours ago, d2o said:

We all have our biases.   You clearly are letting yours cloud your judgement.

I really don't think so. Look at recent history to get an idea what trades are realistic. Blake Griffin -- superstar on a multiyear deal -- and a couple  spares for Avery Bradley, Tobias Harris, Boban, a first and second round pick. A fringe starter, a quality 3rd option, a fringe starter, and a couple picks. You're telling me that KAT is more valuable than Griffin?

[hobbes2702 13513]

18 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I really don't think so. Look at recent history to get an idea what trades are realistic. Blake Griffin -- superstar on a multiyear deal -- and a couple  spares for Avery Bradley, Tobias Harris, Boban, a first and second round pick. A fringe starter, a quality 3rd option, a fringe starter, and a couple picks. You're telling me that KAT is more valuable than Griffin?

KAT is exponentially more valuable than Blake Griffin

[Machinator 32103]

 

[aggie08 21853]

6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

KAT is exponentially more valuable than Blake Griffin

This. Blake was past his athletic prime, and on the decline when the Clippers maxed him out. He's still pretty good obviously, but he was a Top 10 player earlier in his career. He never will be again. KAT might as his prime is still in from of him.

Also, Tobias Harris is considerably better than Julius Randle.

Re: Paul George. He would have required a king's ransom had he been under a long term deal and expressed no interest in leaving Indiana.

Apples and oranges.

[kopp0e 1135]

 

[hobbes2702 13513]

24 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

This. Blake was past his athletic prime, and on the decline when the Clippers maxed him out. He's still pretty good obviously, but he was a Top 10 player earlier in his career. He never will be again. KAT might as his prime is still in from of him.

Also, Tobias Harris is considerably better than Julius Randle.

Re: Paul George. He would have required a king's ransom had he been under a long term deal and expressed no interest in leaving Indiana.

Apples and oranges.

And had he not broken his leg in half. He’s just now getting truly back to the same level he was at before the injury 

[Patrick Bateman 3988]

52 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

KAT is exponentially more valuable than Blake Griffin

Blake's actually had his best season in 4 years so the difference has narrowed a bit, but your point remains.  Blake had one season in his career in which he was anywhere near KAT's last 3 seasons as far as overall impact.  PER, TS%, WS, WS/48, Real +/-, VORP, BPM.  Whatever metric you want to name, KAT is the superior player at this stage in his career and pretty much at their best.  KAT may miss the "killer instinct" or maybe he simply needs to grow into it (He's barely 23).  Blake was always a tweener when he got in the league too.  A PF who didn't protect the rim nor shoot 3's.  To his credit, he figured out he wasn't going to grow and his athleticism was on the wane so he was never going to protect the paint so he started shooting 3's and his fairly decent at it now, but he's still not as good as KAT.

[aggie08 21853]

Some terrible losses in the association tonight. Houston blows a 22 point at home, and Boston loses Kyrie and a 28 point lead, two nights after blowing an 18 point lead to LeBron and co.

Ouch.

[52-80 19377]

MVP took a game on the road.  Good job Paul george

[52-80 19377]

Great basketball IQ by harden to flop in crunch time

[ocugolf 1259]

George has put up two monster games against his two biggest competitors for MVP in the last couple weeks.

45-11-3 against the Rockets last night

36-13-3 against the Bucks last week

It’s still probably Harden’s to lose though. He’s basically carried the Rockets with Paul and Capela missing significant time.

[aggie08 21853]

Milwaukee lost by 20 to the Magic last night without Giannis. They may finish with the best record in the league with him. Gotta think he's still the frontrunner, no matter how many points Harden scores if he can't get the Rockets into the top half of the bracket.

PG is right there with Giannis and Kawhi as best two-way player in the league though. He's been remarkable.

Edited February 10, 2019 by aggie08

[Aqua Buddha 14810]

Some expert NBA analysis by me after the last few weeks:

The Anthony Davis saga is idiotic from NO's standpoint.  The Lakers offered them basically the entire team and draft picks.  They won't get a better package than that yet they turned it down just out of spite.  Now, Davis's value declines every single day and he's a player that's injury prone.  They've always been one of the worst run teams in the league and here's another example.  Now the league is basically telling them they have to play certain players.

New Orleans has no business with two pro sports teams.  They support the Saints because they're more of a regional team but the MSA is smaller than OKC and Memphis and slightly smaller than Louisville and it's a poor city at that.  FA's will never go there, especially the more established ones with families.

Lulz at the Celtics.  They thought this would be some great dynasty.  Oh well.

James Harden might be this generations Charles Barkley.  He's one of the rare players that can score from anywhere.  He can drive and finish, score in transition, mid range, and deep.  He's also terrible at defense and will never win a title, much like Barkley on both counts.

In a rare moment of self awareness, Westbrook seems to realize he's not the best player on his team anymore.  Problem is that OKC still seems to be a Sam Presti special.  Two great players, a few B listers, and a gaggle of rangy guys who can't score.  They seem to be like everyone else in that they'er building for title chances starting next year after Durant leaves GS but in reality, that team will always look the same.

Philly really made some moves.  They could be a legitimate player over the next 3-5 years.

 

 

[aggie08 21853]

The Lakers offer will still be there in June.

Along with a Celtics offer, a Clippers offer, and possibly a whoever gets the #1 pick offer.

Edited February 10, 2019 by aggie08

[Aqua Buddha 14810]

Maybe but it might be less, though.  Davis could also get injured again.  

The Zion Williamson lottery will be interesting in how that shakes out. 

[aggie08 21853]

18 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Maybe but it might be less, though

So they lose out on a package that's headlined by Kyle Kuzma. So what?

I do think the Lakers deal offers the best chance to remain competitive immediately...but that's all they'd be: competitive. Toiling around in the 9 or 10 seed range with last year's Laker squad reunited, with no means to get a top 10 pick and without a single truly exciting player on the roster.

New Orleans is trading one of 5 or so best players on the planet. Their goal should be getting back a player with true All-NBA potential and/or a bunch of picks projected to be towards the top of the draft, which also enables them to tank in the short term and have multiple top picks.

The Celtics offer both of those things; the Lakers offer neither. Maybe Boston fans apart, and LA's offer is all that's left, but it's worth the risk. At worst, LA pulls Hart out of the deal or something. 

[Aqua Buddha 14810]

Or he could walk and they get nothing.  Boston isn't trading him unless he commits.  He seems willing to commit to NY but they don't have anything to give up unless they get the #1 pick.  

[hobbes2702 13513]

42 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Maybe but it might be less, though.  Davis could also get injured again.  

The Zion Williamson lottery will be interesting in how that shakes out. 

The Lakers package basically sucked and isn’t going anywhere. NOP has zero incentive to move him until Boston/Knicks could get involved