Price Negotiation on new HVAC System

[scottonian 36]

We've got two ~17 year old AC Units in our house, and it's time to replace. We've patched them and done minor repairs for years, and they just aren't getting the job done anymore. We got a quote today and as expected it's fairly eye popping. They have a "deal"going right now because of "surplus inventory of furnaces" where if we buy a whole system, they'll throw in the furnace for free. 

Who has been through this process, and how much in your experience can be negotiated on the quoted price?

[Bernard 879]

What size units do you need? Gas or electric heat?

Bernard

[Jkwellborn 6691]

Furnace means gas in the HVAC world. If I were to replace a 17 year old unit, I would go with a complete system for maximum efficiency.

 

[Bernard 879]

46 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

Furnace means gas in the HVAC world.

 

I’m assuming OP is not in the “HVAC world”. That’s why I asked for clarification.

While we’re at it, Scottonian, how much was the quote? There’s no real answer to “how much can be negotiated”. It all depends who you’re dealing with. Some outfits charge an arm and s leg. Others charge much less. 

Bernard

[Jkwellborn 6691]

Another thought would be having the duct work checked out too.

[Yarbr 123]

I got one a about a year ago and his quote was 12.5k and we settled on 12. But I'm a master negotiator.

[Jkwellborn 6691]

The brand of unit is going to be a factor too.

[Lobwedgephil 1139]

38 minutes ago, Yarbr said:

I got one a about a year ago and his quote was 12.5k and we settled on 12. But I'm a master negotiator.

Did he have you bend over after? Seems like it. 

[Yarbr 123]

It was for 2.

[woohorn 1131]

Yeah, help us out and post the details.

 

You are pretty lucky to get that much life outta your old ones.

 

Easy way to negotiate stuff like this is to get cheaper bids and tell the better co that you just don't have the money to use them unless they match. GL.

[Jerry Callo 8698]

Best way to negotiate is to get multiple bids. Do your own research on brands, sizes, etc.

You're lucky you've made it to the cooler weather - if your AC goes out in the summer, they have you by the shorthairs.

[bschoolprof 6252]

1 hour ago, Jerry Callo said:

You're lucky you've made it to the cooler weather - if your AC goes out in the summer, they have you by the shorthairs.

Happened to me - hits close to home.  Triggered.  

[RollLeft 5040]

 

[Francisco 2.0 32389]

I work with a guy who owns a HVAC business as a side gig.

 

21 year old home.  Downstairs unit was the original unit.  Coworker had came to house a few times for maintenance; told me it was a matter of time before it went out.  It finally died in August  2017.  Called him up and he came out on the weekend.  $7450 for new furnace, 16 seer AC 6 ton, new ductwork in the HVAC closet, etc.

Upstairs unit dies over a month later, but it was getting cool outdoors, so it didn't get replaced until this past April.  3 ton, 16 seer, new furnace, new second return unit and ducting for $4600.

I felt lucky getting off for $12K for all the work he did.

 

EDIT.  Electric bill was $100 a month cheaper this summer than last, and we ran the units far more than in the past. Now, $100 cheaper isn't going to pay for the units---I get that.  But it was a noticeable difference bill wise.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Francisco 2.0

[Updawg 2266]

Is that guy in Austin?

[Dbeasy 15042]

I work with a guy who owns a HVAC business as a side gig.
 
21 year old home.  Downstairs unit was the original unit.  Coworker had came to house a few times for maintenance; told me it was a matter of time before it went out.  It finally died in August  2017.  Called him up and he came out on the weekend.  $7450 for new furnace, 16 seer AC 6 ton, new ductwork in the HVAC closet, etc.
Upstairs unit dies over a month later, but it was getting cool outdoors, so it didn't get replaced until this past April.  3 ton, 16 seer, new furnace, new second return unit and ducting for $4600.
I felt lucky getting off for $12K for all the work he did.
 
EDIT.  Electric bill was $100 a month cheaper this summer than last, and we ran the units far more than in the past. Now, $100 cheaper isn't going to pay for the units---I get that.  But it was a noticeable difference bill wise.
 
 

Those prices sound about right for the size of the units. Anyone have a different view? I’d like to know if there are better deals to be had.

[scottonian 36]

We need two 4-ton units (upstairs / downstairs). I'm in Houston Heights FWIW.

Yes to gas furnace.

Duct work checked out fine.

All of the equipment from this company is Carrier.

They quoted four different options after the "free" furnace savings:

• 19 seer 5-stage for $19k ea
  • Carrier models: Infinity AC / Performance furnace
  • Warranty: 10yr labor / 10yr parts warranty
• 19 seer 2-stage for $17.5 ea
  • Carrier models: Performance AC / Performance furnace
  • Warranty: 10yr labor / 10yr parts warranty
• 16 seer 2-stage for $13k ea
  • Carrier models: Performance AC / Comfort furnace
  • Warranty: 5yr labor / 10yr parts warranty
• 16 seer 1-stage for $11k ea
  • Carrier models: Comfort AC / Comfort furnace
  • Warranty: 2yr labor / 10yr parts

I like the idea of the 2-stage for noise purposes (small back yard) as well as cheaper ongoing opex. Is there going to be a discernible difference between 1-stage and 2-stage?

I will take any and all recommendations for quality contractors who could have better pricing. I've never bought an AC system before and (clearly) have no idea what I'm doing.

@Bernard @Jkwellborn @woohorn

[BottleRocket 644]

Just get multiple bids and compare them side by side.  I went through this a year ago and it reminded me of the typical sleazy used car salesman experience.   Do a little research on equipment manufactures, warranty, installer reputation and then make a choice. 

[Francisco 2.0 32389]

1 hour ago, Updawg said:

Is that guy in Austin?

Assuming you are asking me; no.  He's not in Texas.  

[RollLeft 5040]

Polar Express

(281) 794-4434

Ask for Ben

[Dbeasy 15042]

For what it’s worth my long time AC guy convinced me years ago to not buy a name brand ac, stating that all but one brand (Train?) were made in the same factories and had no difference in quality or reliability. He also liked being able to get non-branded replacement parts and drastically lower prices. We did that for two ac units and were going strong on year 11 with no issues when we sold the house.

[RollLeft 5040]

8 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

For what it’s worth my long time AC guy convinced me years ago to not buy a name brand ac, stating that all but one brand (Train?) were made in the same factories and had no difference in quality or reliability. He also liked being able to get non-branded replacement parts and drastically lower prices. We did that for two ac units and were going strong on year 11 with no issues when we sold the house.

 

imgur

[TwiceHorn 31439]

Someone may have better info, but I could not justify paying for more than about 16 SEER.  Against nearly 20 year old units, there will be a huge difference in efficiency.  My builder couldn't really justify the higher SEERs either.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

34 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

For what it’s worth my long time AC guy convinced me years ago to not buy a name brand ac, stating that all but one brand (Train?) were made in the same factories and had no difference in quality or reliability. He also liked being able to get non-branded replacement parts and drastically lower prices. We did that for two ac units and were going strong on year 11 with no issues when we sold the house.

Trane and American Standard are made in the same factory. One gets grey paint and the other green paint.

There has been tremendous consolidation in the HVAC parts industry in the last 5-10 years.  Presently, pretty much everything 'under the hood' comes from 2-3 parts vendors regardless of the brand name on the outside.  Shop price and installer's warranty over name brand.

Edited October 18, 2018 by ShaggyBevo RIP

[Homercles 10205]

All I got to add is register all components on the units right away. My warranty on the Evap Coil woulda been good if the builder had told me to register within 30 days of install...10 years if you register vs 5 years if you don’t. Woulda saved me a few grand when it began to leak.

 

[Bernard 879]

Those prices are insane. My guy just installed two systems for two different friends for $3,500 each. 13 SEER, which is fine IMO. Didn’t include furnace. Goodman equipment. I put two Goodman systems in my house in 2007. No issues to this day.  I put a Goodman system in my mom’s house in 1993. Still going strong, although I’ve replaced a few capacitors at minimal cost.

PM sent.

Bernard

[horn4life 3759]

I think the 4 ton price I was quoted with Furnace 16 SEERwith gas furnance was $4800, I think it was a Goodman.  Hell I got a 3 ton with electric heater in Corpus for like $3200, and that was an attic install.  Now I had to wait to work it into the guys schedule, but the savings were worth it. I think it was maybe an American Standard unit? I was getting near wholesale pricing though by using some remodeling connnections and writing checks rather than using credit cards.  

I also suggest at least you physically inspecting your ductwork (If Possible)

My thinking on AC is that they basically have a certain lifespan.  They all operate in a manner so similar that the main difference is levels of energy efficiency.  I have had good luck with the cheaper brands, but my folks swear by Trane for example.  My logic is that even a cheap new unit is so much more efficient today that what you are probably replacing.  Thus I may indeed replace sooner (though that hasn't been my experience) but then I again buy a cheaper unit far more efficient than the unit I am replacing.  

The ONLY thing I think is worth a major investment in a new build is spray in foam.  That's if you are keeping the house a long time, because that shit really does cut your electric bill. The two stage A/C units simply allow for less energy usage on the non-blazing days.  Like a lot of Austin winters where it's mild but you need to remove the humidity.  Houston is like the natural home of humidity.  Good luck.  you can look on Ebay for same spec models and get an idea of the equipement cost before installation and removal. Long winded but that's my thinking.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

1 minute ago, Bernard said:

Those prices are insane. My guy just installed two systems for two different friends for $3,500 each. 13 SEER, which is fine IMO. Didn’t include furnace. Goodman equipment. I put two Goodman systems in my house in 2007. No issues to this day.  I put a Goodman system in my mom’s house in 1993. Still going strong, although I’ve replaced a few capacitors at minimal cost.

PM sent.

Bernard

That is a really good price. His profit after labor is under $500.

[Bernard 879]

2 minutes ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

That is a really good price. His profit after labor is under $500.

This is a father-son outfit. Two guys. Two vans. Home office. No overhead. They are the labor. I’ve used them many times for myself, family and friends. 

Bernard

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

2 minutes ago, Bernard said:

This is a father-son outfit. Two guys. Two vans. Home office. No overhead. They are the labor. I’ve used them many times for myself, family and friends. 

Bernard

That make sense for how they make that number work because that is about $250-350 after labor.

Edited October 18, 2018 by ShaggyBevo RIP

[Bernard 879]

12 minutes ago, horn4life said:

you can look on Ebay for same spec models and get an idea of the equipement cost before installation and removal.

You can price out any Goodman system here: https://www.acwholesalers.com/. 

Bernard

Edited October 18, 2018 by Bernard

[Gene Parmesan 4002]

Jesus.  I am burning my house down when our AC goes out.

[Johnnyhawx 0]

Ah got a 5 ton Goodman  18 seer 97 aflu last September 2017 2 stage with furnace for 8800.00 installed 10 year parts and labor lifetime compressor. Saving around 100.00 per month on a 3500 square foot home.  New linesets new larger 50 foot return and feed  They also used metal return and feed with a buffer between furnace and coil with a top door for future cleaning Best install I have seen.Just remember trmarriffs have added 25 percent to equipment cost. Shop around decide on equipment you want. Presentation during review pay attention.

[Jkwellborn 6691]

Op, you’re getting fucked. Higher Seer units won’t pay for themselves. I wouldn’t get one over about a 14 if that was the lowest it went.

My preference is for Trane. American standard bought them out. I’d use that one too.

[Dbeasy 15042]

Those prices are insane. My guy just installed two systems for two different friends for $3,500 each. 13 SEER, which is fine IMO. Didn’t include furnace. Goodman equipment. I put two Goodman systems in my house in 2007. No issues to this day.  I put a Goodman system in my mom’s house in 1993. Still going strong, although I’ve replaced a few capacitors at minimal cost.
PM sent.
Bernard

Goodman is what I put in as well.

[Steel Shank 9421]

This is a good thread. Thanks all for sharing.

[phdhorn 6224]

My Trane just completed its 24th year with no problems. I'm going to have to keep this thread handy though.

[zork 629]

1 hour ago, phdhorn said:

My Trane just completed its 24th year with no problems. I'm going to have to keep this thread handy though.

My 22 year old trane died in August.  Replaced it with a builder grade (trane 5ton 14 seer, condenser, +80% eff heater, new wall thermostat) in DFW. (kept original ductwork and lineset, although he did build a plenum after noticing it needed insulation)  10 year parts, 1 year labor, $6700   

Edited October 19, 2018 by zork

[Jkwellborn 6691]

That’s all the op needs. Size may vary.

 

That said, I’d made them install new copper lines.

[SquishMitten 10403]

Need to replace one of mine as well. Been wondering if I could get clever and buy a home warranty and start getting it worked that way. Anybody ever tried that? Only concern is that it won’t be broken “enough” for them to cover a full replacement, but I’m sure that can be arranged...

[NeverMarryAStripper 21874]

Do you really think that those home warranty companies stay in business by giving customers something for nothing?

[YChang 3443]

Good grief the prices I'm seeing.

Got a quote for "top of the line" AC unit from Trane, the XV18 with 18 SEER variable speed compressor. It's $22,000 ish for two units installed. Grossly overpriced?

[Updawg 2266]

There's big differences in price between good man and trane. Trane are the most expensive for the most part

[Jkwellborn 6691]

There’s a quality difference between a Goodman and a Trane too. Or there used to be.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

On 10/19/2018 at 10:58 AM, YChang said:

Good grief the prices I'm seeing.

Got a quote for "top of the line" AC unit from Trane, the XV18 with 18 SEER variable speed compressor. It's $22,000 ish for two units installed. Grossly overpriced?

It is really hard to get a return on initial cost on anything over 14 Seer.  The same Trane is made under the American Standard label at the same factory, but with green paint, if you want to price that out.

Edited October 22, 2018 by ShaggyBevo RIP

[Hugh G. Rection 156]

On 10/19/2018 at 9:26 AM, SquishMitten said:

Need to replace one of mine as well. Been wondering if I could get clever and buy a home warranty and start getting it worked that way. Anybody ever tried that? Only concern is that it won’t be broken “enough” for them to cover a full replacement, but I’m sure that can be arranged...

I moved for my company and part of the relo program was they bought me a home warranty for my new home.  Within 6 months the furnace dies and they send someone out to inspect and sure enough, it's dead.  They agree to replace it but say I have to pay around $2000.  I say that's not how it works.  I replace it myself and sue them in small claims court.  They bluster and have their attorney call me a number of times.  It gets to the day before court and they try to settle for less but I hold firm to my cost.  They finally agree to pay my costs with the caveat that they cancel the remainder of my home warranty contract and I sign a non-disclosure agreement so I can't tell people how shitty that business is.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21874]

And that’s pretty much the only way to make a home warranty pay off. By the way which company was it so I can point them to this thread.

 

[luke duke 6412]

I moved for my company and part of the relo program was they bought me a home warranty for my new home.  Within 6 months the furnace dies and they send someone out to inspect and sure enough, it's dead.  They agree to replace it but say I have to pay around $2000.  I say that's not how it works.  I replace it myself and sue them in small claims court.  They bluster and have their attorney call me a number of times.  It gets to the day before court and they try to settle for less but I hold firm to my cost.  They finally agree to pay my costs with the caveat that they cancel the remainder of my home warranty contract and I sign a non-disclosure agreement so I can't tell people how shitty that business is.

Good work Stormy.

[Hugh G. Rection 156]

Good work Stormy.

[Bernard 879]

On 10/19/2018 at 9:58 AM, YChang said:

Good grief the prices I'm seeing.

Got a quote for "top of the line" AC unit from Trane, the XV18 with 18 SEER variable speed compressor. It's $22,000 ish for two units installed. Grossly overpriced?

My current house came with two expensive Trane systems. They break sometimes too. Trane replacements parts are also very expensive. No way in hell I’d spend that kind of money for AC. Goodman all the way. 

One of the benefits of Goodman is that they are sold to distributors who sell them to any licensed AC tech. Other brands are typically sold through a much tighter network of authorized dealers. Competition is a good thing, for consumers. 

Bernard