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2018-2019 Astros Offseason Thread

Planet Houston

By Planet Houston
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Planet Houston
Planet Houston

Well, it just wasn't in the cards this year.  A combination of great play by the BoSox, the injury bug, inopportune cold streaks and inability to put batters away with 2 outs resulted in an early exit

Seasick Sailor
Seasick Sailor

Thanks for the memories:

henrygandorf
henrygandorf

am i the only one having trouble understanding wtf this means?

kevwun

kevwun 15643

Posted
Posted (edited)

James has good enough stuff that I think you have to try him in the rotation first.  He throws 100+, but he has secondary pitches that he can throw well enough where he could potentially be a really good starter.

Edited by kevwun
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Snake Diggity

Snake Diggity 4614

Posted
Posted

They need to add 3 star-caliber players:

1. Catcher who can hit.  Options are JT Realmuto, Omar Narvaez, Sally Perez, Yasmani Grandal, Kurt Suzuki, Francisco Cervelli, Elias Diaz, and Wilson Ramos.

2. An elite bat to lengthen the lineup.  Options are Goldschmidt, Jose Abreu, Nelson Cruz, Nick Castellanos, Miguel Cabrera, Justin Smoak, and Shin Soo Choo.

3. A 3rd ace to replace Keuchel (especially with McCullers missing next season and Morton also having injury concerns, if he comes back).  Options are: DeGrom, Corbin, Keuchel, Synergaard, Morton (if healthy), and Greinke.

Gotta give Tucker a chance in LF.  Can fill in the back of the rotation with some combo of McHugh, Whitley, James, F Valdez, C Perez, Peacock, and any surprising minor leaguers.  Bullpen is fine with the guys I just listed plus Devenski, Rondon, Pressly, and Osuna, so Smith and Harris can be salary dumped if needed.  The bullpen free agent market is deep, so they could find a bargain there and improve what is already a strength.

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Snake Diggity said:

They need to add 3 star-caliber players:

1. Catcher who can hit.  Options are JT Realmuto, Omar Narvaez, Sally Perez, Yasmani Grandal, Kurt Suzuki, Francisco Cervelli, Elias Diaz, and Wilson Ramos.

2. An elite bat to lengthen the lineup.  Options are Goldschmidt, Jose Abreu, Nelson Cruz, Nick Castellanos, Miguel Cabrera, Justin Smoak, and Shin Soo Choo.

3. A 3rd ace to replace Keuchel (especially with McCullers missing next season and Morton also having injury concerns, if he comes back).  Options are: DeGrom, Corbin, Keuchel, Synergaard, Morton (if healthy), and Greinke.

Gotta give Tucker a chance in LF.  Can fill in the back of the rotation with some combo of McHugh, Whitley, James, F Valdez, C Perez, Peacock, and any surprising minor leaguers.  Bullpen is fine with the guys I just listed plus Devenski, Rondon, Pressly, and Osuna, so Smith and Harris can be salary dumped if needed.  The bullpen free agent market is deep, so they could find a bargain there and improve what is already a strength.

1. Realmuto is the best but would cost a ton. I think he has a couple more years of control. Grandal makes the most sense to me, as he is a FA (so no trade) - basically a reallocation of Keuchel money. 

2. Goldschmidt has been discussed. I like Abreu, Smoak or Choo out of this group - could probably be had for relatively cheap. No way in hell we or anyone else would touch Cabrera and that contract - it is the worst in baseball at this point. 

3. Re-signing Morton seems fairly likely; deGrom/Syndergaard would be crazy expensive, Greinke wouldn't be as expensive, but you'd still have to give some really good prospects (may be worth it). Corbin is the best FA pitcher so you'd have to overpay. I imagine we re-sign Morton and try to fill the back end with all the guys you mention - McHugh, Valdez, James, etc...Whitley, when he is ready. Then can reassess at the trade deadline. 

I'd be really happy with something like: re-sign Morton, acquire a good/inexpensive bat like Smoak to take Gattis' ABs at DH and some time at 1B, and signing Grandal. Something like that. 

Edited by Hank Chinaski
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TonyTexas

TonyTexas 10482

Posted
Posted
grienke is still under contract with AZ; if he is moved anywhere AZ is going to have to eat some of that money. It's like 20-30 million a year from what I remember. I dont think there's a chance we go after him. 

Greinke is signed through 2021 at 32 per. Not happening. I think they sign CFM to a short term deal maybe at a discount as he loves it here.

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Snake Diggity said:

Hypothetical trades:

astros get:

1B Paul Goldschmidt

SP Zack Greinke

$15M

snakes get:

1B AJ Reed

SP Cionel Perez

OF Derek Fisher

 

I can't imagine Reed has that much trade value left. Maybe this package could get you Goldschmidt for a year, but no way it gets you both guys. 

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clapclapclap

clapclapclap 9000

Posted
Posted (edited)

I wouldn't mind seeing the right field fence moved in 3+ feet so that there's enough of a ledge that a fan can't interfere when simply bending over trying to catch a ball. 

Or make the fence high enough that a player can't reach over it.  Probably can't raise it, so maybe add Tal's Ditch instead....  

 

Edited by clapclapclap
Or I guess they could add hockey plexiglass to raise the RF fence.  But fans pounding on it might sound like the Oakland drummers.
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runthebone

runthebone 7932

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Snake Diggity said:

Hypothetical trades:

astros get:

1B Paul Goldschmidt

SP Zack Greinke

$15M

snakes get:

1B AJ Reed

SP Cionel Perez

OF Derek Fisher

Astros get:

C JT Realmuto

Marlins get:

OF Yordan Alvarez

SP Corbin Martin

SP Rogelio Armenteros 

$1M intl slot money

 

While you're at it, why don't you add the Angels and have them throw in Trout for a few AA guys?

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ckhorn

ckhorn 208

Posted
Posted

1. Let's resign CFM.

2. Sign a good DH, not close to over the hill type.

3. Try to sign a an above average O/D catcher and not break the Bank

We can try for Goldsmith, not likely happening unless we give up Whitley, Tucker, Buk or Alvarez. Probably a combo of at least two of the four.

I say let the kids play and develop with the top three above. We can always make trades through the season for upgrades.

Got to hand it to the Stros this year. Made it a long ways with a lot of keys injuries. A fully healthy team probably would have won it all. Lucky have them as our team.

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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 76352

Posted
Posted

Catchers
Yasmani Grandal (30 years old, 3.6 WAR)
Wilson Ramos (31, 2.4)
Kurt Suzuki (35, 2.0)
Martin Maldonado (32, 0.9)
Nick Hundley (35, 0.9)
Matt Wieters (33, 0.9)
A.J. Ellis (38, 0.8)
Devin Mesoraco (31, 0.7)
Jonathan Lucroy (33, 0.6)
Rene Rivera (35, 0.3)
Drew Butera (35, -0.3)
Jeff Mathis (36, -0.5)

First basemen
Steve Pearce (36 years old, 1.6 WAR)
Joe Mauer (36, 1.0)
Matt Adams (30, 0.8)
Mark Reynolds (35, 0.1)
Lucas Duda (32, 0.0)
Hanley Ramirez (35, -0.2)

Second basemen
Jed Lowrie (35 years old, 4.9 WAR)
Asdrubal Cabrera (33, 2.7)
Ian Kinsler (37, 2.3)
DJ LeMahieu (30, 2.0)
Daniel Descalso (32, 1.6)
Brian Dozier (32, 0.8)
Daniel Murphy (34, 0.8)
Andrew Romine (33, 0.1)
Neil Walker (33, 0.1)
Sean Rodriguez (34, 0.0)
Logan Forsythe (32, -0.2)

Third basemen
Eduardo Escobar (30 years old, 3.5 WAR)
Josh Donaldson (33, 1.3)
Adrian Beltre (40, 1.2)
Pablo Sandoval (32, 0.1)
Chase Headley (35, -0.4)
Danny Valencia (34, -0.4)
Jose Reyes (36, -0.9)
Luis Valbuena (33, -0.9)

Shortstops
Manny Machado (26 years old, 6.2 WAR)
Jose Iglesias (29, 2.5)
Elvis Andrus (30, 1.2) -- Can opt out of the four years and $58 million remaining on his contract.
Freddy Galvis (29, 1.2)
Jordy Mercer (32, 1.0)
Adeiny Hechavarria (30, 0.4)
Alcides Escobar (32, -0.3)
Eric Sogard (33, -0.8)

Left fielders
Michael Brantley (32 years old, 3.5 WAR)
Marwin Gonzalez (30, 1.6)
Curtis Granderson (38, 0.9)
Craig Gentry (35, 0.6)
Cameron Maybin (32, 0.5)
Matt Joyce (34, 0.2)
Gregor Blanco (35, -0.7)
Hunter Pence (36, -0.9)

Center fielders
A.J. Pollock (31 years old, 2.5 WAR)
Leonys Martin (31, 2.4)
Adam Jones (33, 0.5)
Rajai Davis (38, -0.2)
Austin Jackson (32, -1.0)

Right fielders
Bryce Harper (26 years old, 3.5 WAR)
Andrew McCutchen (32, 2.6)
Nick Markakis (35, 2.6)
Jason Heyward (29, 2.0) -- Can opt out of the five years and $106 million remaining on his contract.
Carlos Gonzalez (33, 1.7)
Jose Bautista (38, 1.0)
Jon Jay (33, 0.8)
Lonnie Chisenhall (30, 0.8)
Melky Cabrera (34, 0.4)
Carlos Gomez (33, -0.5)
Chris Young (35, -0.5)

Designated hitters
Nelson Cruz (38 years old, 2.5 WAR)
Evan Gattis (32, 0.0)
Pedro Alvarez (32, -0.2)

Starting pitchers
Patrick Corbin (29 years old, 6.3 WAR)
Dallas Keuchel (31, 3.6)
Clayton Kershaw (31, 3.5) -- Can opt out of the two years and $65 million remaining on his contract.
J.A. Happ (36, 3.2)
Charlie Morton (35, 3.1)
Lance Lynn (32, 2.9)
David Price (33, 2.7) -- Can opt out of the four years and $127 million remaining on his contract.
CC Sabathia (38, 2.5)
Anibal Sanchez (35, 2.4)
Nathan Eovaldi (29, 2.2)
Gio Gonzalez (33, 2.0)
Hyun-Jin Ryu (32, 2.0)
Trevor Cahill (31, 2.0)
Derek Holland (32, 2.0)
Clay Buchholz (34, 1.9)
Wade Miley (32, 1.5)
Matt Harvey (30, 1.4)
Jeremy Hellickson (32, 1.2)
Garrett Richards (32, 1.0)
Tyson Ross (32, 1.0)
Brett Anderson (31, 0.9)
Edwin Jackson (35, 0.7)
Adam Wainwright (37, 0.5) -- Reached agreement on one-year contract with Cardinals. (Oct. 11, 2018)
Marco Estrada (35, 0.5)
Francisco Liriano (35, 0.3)
Bartolo Colon (46, 0.2)
Jaime Garcia (32, 0.0)
Drew Pomeranz (30, -0.3)
Miguel Gonzalez (35, -0.3)
Chris Tillman (31, -0.4)
Hisashi Iwakuma (35, N/A) -- Didn't appear in the Majors in 2018.

Relief pitchers
Adam Ottavino (33 years old, 2.0 WAR)
Jeurys Familia (29, 1.8)
David Robertson (34, 1.5)
Craig Kimbrel (31, 1.5)
Jesse Chavez (35, 1.2)
Oliver Perez (37, 1.1)
Tony Sipp (35, 0.9)
Zach Duke (36, 0.9)
Brad Brach (33, 0.7)
Joe Kelly (31, 0.7)
Sergio Romo (36, 0.5)
Jake Diekman (32, 0.5)
Justin Wilson (31, 0.5)
Tyler Clippard (34, 0.5)
Shawn Kelley (35, 0.5)
Andrew Miller (34, 0.4)
Kelvin Herrera (29,0.4)
Mark Melancon (34, 0.3) -- Can opt out of the two years and $28 million remaining on his contract.
Greg Holland (33, 0.3)
Tony Barnette (35, 0.3)
Aaron Loup (31, 0.3)
Jonny Venters (34, 0.3)
Adam Warren (31, 0.3)
John Axford (36, 0.2)
Bud Norris (34, 0.2)
Ryan Madson (38, 0.2)
Jeanmar Gomez (31, 0.2)
Zach Britton (31, 0.1)
Santiago Casilla (38, 0.1)
Cody Allen (30, 0.0)
Jorge De La Rosa (38, 0.0)
Fernando Salas (34, 0.0)
Zach McAllister (31, 0.0)
Blake Wood (33, 0.0)
Daniel Hudson (32, -0.1)
Jerry Blevins (35, -0.1)
Matt Belisle (39, -0.2)
AJ Ramos (32, -0.2)
Hector Santiago (31, -0.2)
Jim Johnson (36, -0.3)
Randall Delgado (29, -0.3)
Boone Logan (34, -0.3)
Peter Moylan (40, -0.4)
Junichi Tazawa (33, -0.5)
Blaine Boyer (37, -0.9)
Josh Tomlin (34, -1.3)
David Phelps (32, N/A) -- Didn't appear in the Majors in 2018.
Joaquin Benoit (41, N/A) -- Didn't appear in the Majors in 2018.

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ckhorn

ckhorn 208

Posted
Posted
22 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

1. Realmuto is the best but would cost a ton. I think he has a couple more years of control. Grandal makes the most sense to me, as he is a FA (so no trade) - basically a reallocation of Keuchel money. 

2. Goldschmidt has been discussed. I like Abreu, Smoak or Choo out of this group - could probably be had for relatively cheap. No way in hell we or anyone else would touch Cabrera and that contract - it is the worst in baseball at this point. 

3. Re-signing Morton seems fairly likely; deGrom/Syndergaard would be crazy expensive, Greinke wouldn't be as expensive, but you'd still have to give some really good prospects (may be worth it). Corbin is the best FA pitcher so you'd have to overpay. I imagine we re-sign Morton and try to fill the back end with all the guys you mention - McHugh, Valdez, James, etc...Whitley, when he is ready. Then can reassess at the trade deadline. 

I'd be really happy with something like: re-sign Morton, acquire a good/inexpensive bat like Smoak to take Gattis' ABs at DH and some time at 1B, and signing Grandal. Something like that. 

On the money

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

Starting pitchers
Patrick Corbin (29 years old, 6.3 WAR)
Dallas Keuchel (31, 3.6)
Clayton Kershaw (31, 3.5) -- Can opt out of the two years and $65 million remaining on his contract.
J.A. Happ (36, 3.2)
Charlie Morton (35, 3.1)
Lance Lynn (32, 2.9)
David Price (33, 2.7) -- Can opt out of the four years and $127 million remaining on his contract.
CC Sabathia (38, 2.5)
Anibal Sanchez (35, 2.4)
Nathan Eovaldi (29, 2.2)
Gio Gonzalez (33, 2.0)
Hyun-Jin Ryu (32, 2.0)
Trevor Cahill (31, 2.0)
Derek Holland (32, 2.0)
Clay Buchholz (34, 1.9)
Wade Miley (32, 1.5)
Matt Harvey (30, 1.4)
Jeremy Hellickson (32, 1.2)
Garrett Richards (32, 1.0)
Tyson Ross (32, 1.0)
Brett Anderson (31, 0.9)
Edwin Jackson (35, 0.7)
Adam Wainwright (37, 0.5) -- Reached agreement on one-year contract with Cardinals. (Oct. 11, 2018)
Marco Estrada (35, 0.5)
Francisco Liriano (35, 0.3)
Bartolo Colon (46, 0.2)
Jaime Garcia (32, 0.0)
Drew Pomeranz (30, -0.3)
Miguel Gonzalez (35, -0.3)
Chris Tillman (31, -0.4)
Hisashi Iwakuma (35, N/A) -- Didn't appear in the Majors in 2018.

 

There are actually some mid-tier inning-eating starters among this list that I could see as potential acquisitions. 

I'm curious as to whether the Astros won't experiment with some "starter" games in 2019. It worked reasonably well for TB and OAK, and we seem to have the organizational depth to be able to do it effectively. Wouldn't surprise me if HOU doesn't address the rotation this offseason (though I still think they'll try to re-sign Morton). 

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

Posted
Posted

From Olney this morning...apparently we are the villains:

Spoiler

Many of A.J. Preller's peers were enraged by his actions in 2016, when, under Preller's watch, the San Diego Padres generated two sets of medical records on each player and withheld relevant information in trade discussions. Major League Baseball rendered an unprecedented month-long suspension of Preller, and in the aftermath of that decision, some of his peers predicted the Padres general manager would get an earful of wrath at the annual general managers meetings, when the executives from all 30 teams get in the same room.

 

But the mob response to Preller never developed. Commissioner Rob Manfred spoke sternly to the group about cheating, and whether Manfred displayed enough emotion to satisfy Preller's peers, or there was a cooling of tempers, or because nobody summoned the courage to tell Preller what they thought to his face, the anger never translated into a group confrontation.

It might be that the same thing will happen with Houston Astros GM Jeff Luhnow, who has infuriated his peers with what they believe to be brazen disregard for the rules against electronic surveillance before offering an explanation that few -- if any -- believe.

"We were playing defense," Luhnow said. "We were not playing offense."

Officials from the Boston Red Sox and other American League teams chortled over those words in conversations with each other; one evaluator indicated he had heard from close to a dozen teams that they, too, had concerns about the Astros and what they perceived to be illicit behavior.

That Astros employee Kyle McLaughlin was confronted in Cleveland about his presence next to the Indians dugout and then did the same thing in Boston was a brazen disregard for the rules, in the eyes of rival officials -- as if protocol doesn't apply to Houston, even after the Astros were caught. "You talk about arrogant ..." mused one AL official, shaking his head.

One official noted that Luhnow's explanation that the Astros were merely trying to protect their interests from others who might break the rules echoed the excuse former St. Louis Cardinals scouting director Chris Correa gave for invading Houston's computer files.

In explaining the hacking, Correa said he suspected former St. Louis employees had taken some of the Cardinals' intellectual property when they moved to the Astros, and that he didn't intend to steal the Astros' information; rather, he argued, he was only trying to defend the Cardinals' interests. Correa was given a felony conviction and a 46-month sentence.

After the story about the Astros' photo-well machinations broke, Correa seemed to mock the organization from prison:

Only the Astros know for sure whether they have cheated, but some other teams are treating the aggressive dugout spying as confirmation that Houston has not been above board, and that the team has broken rules to win. After McLaughlin was removed from the camera well, the Astros mustered 14 runs in four games of the series against Boston, all losses.

"You notice how they did after they got busted in Boston?" asked one AL evaluator. The esteemed Scott Miller wrote about other concerns about how the Astros use their data.

As I wrote the other day, this sort of conversation about legitimacy, about credibility, is incredibly destructive for baseball. Only the Astros know for sure whether they've been cheating. Only the Astros know for sure if the offensive struggles were more about Nathan Eovaldi, David Price and Ryan Brasier and Jose Altuve's bad knee and Carlos Correa's back trouble.

But the Astros' behavior fuels those kinds of questions, and it's why a lot of officials in baseball would strongly support Manfred if he was to create a draconian system of rules and punishment designed to end any cheating -- and there is an expectation that this issue will be revisited at the GM meetings.

Paranoia over cheating has saturated the sport, with plenty of private accusations about teams other than the Astros, and whether or not some of this is imagined, it all needs to be corralled. And unless Manfred ramps up the penalties significantly -- as in years-long suspensions or bans, or enormous draft and international-market sanctions -- the possible benefits from cheating might outweigh the fear of the punishment. In the eyes of rival officials, the Astros' actions in recent weeks demonstrate that. Manfred had threatened teams with harsh penalties in the past, and was apparently ignored.

Will the many offended rival evaluators confront Luhnow when they all gather in the same room? Probably not. Preller knows that firsthand. But regardless of what is said, or not, the room will be filled with the growing anger over cheating.

 

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Were we stealing signs from the Dodgers dugout last year?

That seems like something someone is going to want to find out.

From the BR article linked in the Olney piece:

Spoiler

A third source, an executive with an American League club, points to Game 2 of last October's World Series, when Jose Altuve and Carlos Correa led off the 10th inning with back-to-back home runs against Josh Fields, and Yuli Gurriel followed by smashing a double that drove Fields from the game.

"Now Correa might have been sitting on an 0-1 breaking ball, with pitch percentages and counts and all that," the AL executive said. "Maybe he was sitting curve. But that swing he took, I remember that inning going, 'Huh. Wow. They're all over this guy.'

"Now Fields used to be with Houston, so maybe he was tipping his pitches. But it just seems strange. They were taking some swings at times in that World Series that they shouldn't have been taking."

 

 

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WBT

WBT 20419

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Only the Astros know for sure whether they have cheated, but some other teams are treating the aggressive dugout spying as confirmation that Houston has not been above board, and that the team has broken rules to win. After McLaughlin was removed from the camera well, the Astros mustered 14 runs in four games of the series against Boston, all losses.

Lulz.  That happened during Game 1.  We scored 5, 2, 6, and 1 the rest of the series.  So Game 2 and Game 4 cheating, Game 3 and Game 5 no cheating?  As if even 4 straight shutouts would be enough of a trend to prove anything anyway.

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, WBT said:

Lulz.  That happened during Game 1.  We scored 5, 2, 6, and 1 the rest of the series.  So Game 2 and Game 4 cheating, Game 3 and Game 5 no cheating?  As if even 4 straight shutouts would be enough of a trend to prove anything anyway.

Yeah, and there's this at the end of Olney's article...

Paranoia over cheating has saturated the sport, with plenty of private accusations about teams other than the Astros, and whether or not some of this is imagined, it all needs to be corralled.

So, it's not as though this is something unique, apparently. I think Lunhow/Astros have developed this "below board" reputation because he has a non-traditional approach to most things, which seems to rub the old guard the wrong way - e.g., since he's taken over, the club has been criticized for treating player impersonally (Bud Norris whined about this a lot), the Brady Aiken situation, now this.  

Do they try to find every possible advantage they can? Probably. Are they alone in this regard? Haha no. 

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Chuckie Finster

Chuckie Finster 22599

Posted
Posted
From the BR article linked in the Olney piece:
Spoiler

A third source, an executive with an American League club, points to Game 2 of last October's World Series, when Jose Altuve and Carlos Correa led off the 10th inning with back-to-back home runs against Josh Fields, and Yuli Gurriel followed by smashing a double that drove Fields from the game.

"Now Correa might have been sitting on an 0-1 breaking ball, with pitch percentages and counts and all that," the AL executive said. "Maybe he was sitting curve. But that swing he took, I remember that inning going, 'Huh. Wow. They're all over this guy.'

"Now Fields used to be with Houston, so maybe he was tipping his pitches. But it just seems strange. They were taking some swings at times in that World Series that they shouldn't have been taking."


   

So the AL MVP and the starting AL All-Star SS hit home runs and then the dude who led a 100+ win team in doubles hits a double, all off of a dude who we obviously have an extensive scouting report on because he used to play for us... and that’s proof that we are cheating?

Fucking laughable. Olney should be ashamed of himself for bringing any attention to some of these obvious sour grapes. 2017 shut a lot of people up and kind of made me forget how many folks across baseball desperately want the Astros to fail. But this last week sure has reminded me how people love to strike when they sense blood in the water.
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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6310

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:


So the AL MVP and the starting AL All-Star SS hit home runs and then the dude who led a 100+ win team in doubles hits a double, all off of a dude who we obviously have an extensive scouting report on because he used to play for us... and that’s proof that we are cheating?

Fucking laughable. Olney should be ashamed of himself for bringing any attention to some of these obvious sour grapes. 2017 shut a lot of people up and kind of made me forget how many folks across baseball desperately want the Astros to fail. But this last week sure has reminded me how people love to strike when they sense blood in the water.

Yeah that seemed like a huge stretch.

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Fudge Nuggets

Fudge Nuggets 19149

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:


So the AL MVP and the starting AL All-Star SS hit home runs and then the dude who led a 100+ win team in doubles hits a double, all off of a dude who we obviously have an extensive scouting report on because he used to play for us... and that’s proof that we are cheating?

Fucking laughable. Olney should be ashamed of himself for bringing any attention to some of these obvious sour grapes. 2017 shut a lot of people up and kind of made me forget how many folks across baseball desperately want the Astros to fail. But this last week sure has reminded me how people love to strike when they sense blood in the water.

Apparently Josh Fields is staff ace material and no one should be able to hit his elite stuff.

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WBT

WBT 20419

Posted
Posted
Spoiler

 

‘Everybody tries to cheat a little’: The weird and wild history of MLB sign-stealing

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By Cliff Corcoran Oct 18, 2018comment-icon@2x.png 23 save-icon@2x.png

The Cleveland Indians failed to win a single playoff game this October, but they are not going quietly. On Wednesday, Yahoo Sports’ Jeff Passan reportedthat Cleveland suspected a credentialed Astros employee stationed in the photographer’s pit near their dugout of stealing signs during the Division Series. The Indians warned the Red Sox about this behavior prior to Boston’s American League Championship Series confrontation with Houston. Security removed the employee, Kyle McLaughlin, from his position near the dugout during both Game 3 of the Division Series at Progressive Field, and Game 1 of the American League Championship Series at Fenway Park.

Are the Astros stealing signs by having an unlisted employee named after one of David Lynch’s favorite actors stand in plain view next to their opponents’ dugouts, wearing an Astros credential, and point a smartphone at the opposing manager and coaches? As The Ringer’s Michael Baumann pointed out on Wednesday afternoon, the scheme is almost too stupid to be plausible. Major League Baseball’s statement on the matter claimed that McLaughlin was actually “monitoring the field” to make sure the Astros’ opponents were not “violating any rules,” but also that all the teams had been “notified to refrain from these types of efforts.” That said, for the last 140 years or so, when the question is “are they stealing signs,” the answer has almost always been, “yes.”

Sign-stealing in baseball is nearly as old as signs themselves, both of which rapidly increased in frequency after the curveball took the professional ranks by storm in 1874. However, while the phrase “stealing signs” broadly refers to all efforts to interpret and relay an opposing team’s signals, an important distinction exists between the decoding of signs by the players and coaches in uniform, and the stealing of signs by non-uniformed personnel outside the dugout or field of play.

Decoding signs is very much a part of the game. It is a skill that is passed down from veterans to rookies, and from managers to their coaches, and a great deal of mental energy is spent in nearly every game in an effort to decode the elaborate signs relayed from the dugout, the third base coach and the catcher. Joe Nossek, who coached in the American League for all but three years from 1973 to 2003, was renowned for his ability to decode signs. Decoding signs was also one of Billy Martin’s notable skills, as both a player and manager, a skill he learned from manager Chuck Dressen when both were with the Oakland Oaks in the late 1940s. In their book on baseball’s unwritten rules, The Baseball Codes, authors Jason Turbow and Michael Duca attribute Willie Mays’ four-homer game and Roger Maris’ 61st home run to decoded signs, and Nolan Ryan’s second no-hitter to the fact that his catcher didn’t call a single pitch — Ryan did all the signaling himself from the mound. Coaches and catchers use such elaborate sign sequences because they are fully aware that their opponents are constantly trying to decipher them, not that they take terribly kindly to their codes being cracked.

Stealing signs with aid of non-uniformed personnel and/or telescopic or electronic devices, however, is widely regarded as cheating, and the use of electronic devices, specifically, is against MLB’s regulations. The commissioner also has the ability to use his best-interests-of-baseball powers to discipline teams who cross that line. Still, such sign-stealing is every bit as much a baseball tradition as those on-field decoding efforts.

According to Derek Zumsteg’s The Cheater’s Guide to Baseball, sign-stealing of that sort dates back to at least 1876, when the National Association’s Hartford Dark Blues placed a man in a small shack on a telegraph pole beyond the outfield wall to alert their batters to when that newfangled curveball was coming.

To find the earliest known use of electronic equipment in a sign-stealing operation, you have to go all the way back to 1900. At a time when few American homes had electricity, and Guglielmo Marconi was still trying to prove the viability of his wireless radio transmissions, the Philadelphia Phillies ran a telegraph wire from their clubhouse beyond the center-field fence of the Baker Bowl (then known as National League Park), under the field to the third-base coaches box. Third-string catcher Morgan Murphy would observe the opposing catcher’s signals from a clubhouse window (with binoculars, one assumes), then send an electronic signal to third-base coach Petey Chiles, who would relay to the batter what type of pitch to expect.

According to Christy Mathewson’s Pitching in a Pinch, Chiles received the electronic signal by placing one foot in a puddle and effectively letting Murphy give him a series of electric shocks, which would cause his leg to twitch visibly. It’s no wonder, then, that the plan was discovered. During the first game of a double-header against Cincinnati on September 17 of that year, Reds captain Tommy Corcoran (no relation) walked over to Chiles’ location and began digging in the dirt with his spikes until he hit a board covering a hole that contained the electronic device used to signal Chiles.

The Phillies’ use of technology was ahead of its time, but, as Rogers Hornsby wrote in his 1962 autobiography My War With Baseball, “Every team with a scoreboard in center field has a spy inside at one time or another.” One notable example was the 1940 Tigers, who, as catcher Birdie Tebbetts revealed to a Boston newspaper 10 years later, stationed a pitcher in the stands with binoculars. Those Tigers led the American League in runs scored and won the pennant by one game over Cleveland.

Perhaps the most famous example of such sign-stealing went unconfirmed for 50 years. Beginning in late July of 1951, Giants manager Leo Durocher stationed reserve infielder Hank Schenz and coach Herman Franks in his clubhouse office up above center field in the Polo Grounds with a Wollensak telescope and a buzzer connected to the home bullpen in fair territory in right field. Schenz and Franks observed the opposing catcher’s signals through the telescope, buzzed the bullpen phone accordingly, and the pitchers in the ‘pen would relay the sign to the batter. With the sign-stealing operation in place, the Giants went 21-4 (.840) at home over the remainder of the season and climb into a first-place tie with the Brooklyn Dodgers. They then beat the Dodgers in a best-of-three playoff to claim the pennant, the decisive run coming on Bobby Thomson’s legendary three-run, walk-off home run at the Polo Grounds off a Ralph Branca fastball of which Thomson denied prior knowledge.

The Giants also had a sign-stealing system in place when they next won the pennant in 1954. However, another attempt in 1959 ended very differently. Leading the Braves by two games with 10 left to play and Milwaukee coming to Seals Stadium, Giants manager Bill Rigney, who had been a reserve infielder on the 1951 team, devised a simpler system in which the spy would do the signaling himself by closing certain slats in the center-field scoreboard. However, born-again Christian reliever Al Worthington objected to the scheme on moral grounds, threatening to leave the team if it continued. Rigney obliged. The Giants went 2-8 the rest of the way and finished third.

The following March, Worthington was traded to Boston and, that August, to the defending American League champion White Sox. Chicago’s general manager at the time was Hall of Famer Hank Greenberg, who won the Most Valuable Player award with the 1940 Tigers. Under Greenberg, the White Sox had their own binocular-based sign-stealing system in place. Worthington again objected on moral grounds, but Greenberg wasn’t as easily dissuaded as Rigney.

“Baseball is a game where you try to get away with everything you can,” Greenberg told the pious righty. “You cut corners when you run the bases. If you trap a ball in the outfield, you swear you caught it. Everybody tries to cheat a little.”

Worthington remained steadfast and quit the team. Greenberg tried to trade him but, as he would later recall, “word was out that he was some kind of cuckoo.” Worthington wouldn’t return to the majors until 1963, though he did go to the World Series with the Twins in 1965. One assumes they got there honestly.

Over the last 50 years, tales of sign-stealing have more often come in the form of accusations than confirmed fact. In 1973, then-Texas Rangers manager Whitey Herzog accused Brewers mascot Bernie Brewer and his assistant of stealing signs from the mascot’s chalet in County Stadium’s center field. According to Herzog, the assistant would observe the signs through binoculars, and the mascot would signal the pitch to the batter using specific cheers and the occasional removal of his white gloves.

As cable and satellite television expanded in the late 1970s and ’80s, it became common for teams to watch video tape of their opponents’ other games or to watch the game broadcast in the clubhouse to try to decipher a catcher’s signs, though not necessarily for real-time relay of those signs. The 1984 Cubs, who snapped a 38-year playoff drought under manager Jim Frey, and 1980s Orioles, whose star shortstop Cal Ripken Jr. was renowned for his decoding skills, were among the teams known to do so. As for real-time sign-stealing from television broadcasts, per Turbow, during the 1976 World Series, three scouts from the Yankees were discovered watching the ABC broadcast and talking into walkie-talkies. Later that decade, Franks, then the manager of the Cubs, attempted, largely unsuccessfully, to relay signs to the Cubs’ dugout phone from the WGN truck.

On at least one occasion, a team accidentally assisted an opponent in their sign-stealing. Per The Baseball Codes, in the 1980s, the Red Sox’s Gold Glove-winning right fielder, Dwight Evans, asked second baseman Marty Barrett to relay the Boston catcher’s signs to improve Evans’ anticipation of batted balls in the outfield. Unbeknownst to Evans or Barrett, who would signal Evans behind his back, the Blue Jays in the visiting bullpen behind Evans picked up on the signs and began relaying them back to their batters by standing, sitting or draping a towel over the outfield wall. During Barrett’s last two seasons as the Sox’s primary second baseman, 1988 and ’89, the Blue Jays went 13-0 at Fenway Park.

Fourteen years later, the Mariners and Rays accused the Red Sox themselves of relaying signs from the Fenway bullpen after the team had a television installed in the home ‘pen in August 2003.

Given the number of accusations lobbed their way, the Charlie Manuel-era Phillies seem to have been up to all sorts of sign-stealing hijinks. In 2007, the Mets accused Philadelphia of sending the feed from a center-field camera to a video room, which relayed the sign to a coach in the dugout via a buzzer in his pocket, after which the coach would call out coded cheering to the batter. How all that supposedly happened in the few seconds between the catcher giving the sign and the pitcher delivering the pitch is unclear given that Steve Trachsel’s last year with the Mets was 2006.

The Red Sox leveled an accusation at the Phillies in 2008. Manuel’s predecessor, Larry Bowa, then a Dodgers coach, accused them in 2009.

In May 2010, the Rockies’ broadcast caught Phillies bullpen coach Mick Billmeyer watching Rockies catcher Miguel Olivo through binoculars from the visiting bullpen in Coors Field, after which Phillies outfielder Shane Victorino was seen answering the bullpen phone in the dugout. That incident prompted a beautiful doubletalk denial from then-Phillies manager Manuel.

“We’re not trying to steal signs,” said Manuel. “Would we try to steal somebody’s signs? Yeah, if we can, but we don’t do that.”

Reached for comment, then-commissioner Bud Selig shrugged the accusations off by reminiscing about Milwaukee Braves pitchers Bob Buhl and Joey Jay, getting caught posing as fans and relaying signs from the bleachers in Wrigley Field in the late 1950s.

The Mets were hardly innocent themselves. After they hired Bobby Valentine as their manager late in the 1996 season, the team installed three surveillance cameras around the infield (one on the net behind home plate and one on each of the photographer’s wells), ostensibly to film their own hitters. However, other teams believed the cameras were being used to steal signs, or at least to record them for quicker decoding, something of which the mid-90s White Sox had also been accused.

In 2016, Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina spotted a suspicious character in a Padres-branded polo shirt using binoculars in Petco Park’s center-field camera well. However, the Phillies’ successors as the most-accused team in baseball are inarguably the Blue Jays. According to their accusers, Toronto received signs from a man in white sitting in center field at the Rogers Centre in late 2009 and 2010. Yankees manager Joe Girardi believed they were still getting the signs from “somewhere else besides a player on the field” in 2011. Johnny Cueto believed it was still happening during the 2015 American League Championship Series, telling rotation-mate Edinson Vólquez, “they got a guy in center field,” and Red Sox broadcaster Jerry Remy thought they were still up to no good this May.

The irony of those accusations coming from a Red Sox broadcaster, and of Cleveland warning Boston about the Astros this October, is that, just last year, the Sox were caught stealing signs via an Apple Watch worn in the dugout by a member of their training staff. That accusation came from the Yankees, whom the Sox then counter-accused of stealing signs via the YES Network camera feed.

Of all of the sign-stealing operations listed above, the Red Sox’s Apple Watch scheme is the only one to prompt a fine from the commissioner’s office (the commissioner simultaneously fined the Yankees a lesser amount, but not for the alleged camera feed thing, rather for an unspecified violation of the use of the dugout phone in a prior season). In addition to fining Boston an undisclosed amount, commissioner Rob Manfred, who clearly has a different view of the issue than his predecessor Selig, issued a warning about sign-stealing to all 30 teams, informing them that “future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.”

MLB concluded that the Astros’ behavior this October did not rise to that level, but Cleveland’s accusations do make one question the degree to which Yu Darvish was actually tipping his pitches in last year’s World Series, when the Dodgers also suspected Houston of sign-stealing. For that matter, one wonders about the Red Sox’s success against Luis Severino in this year’s Division Series, another instance in which a pitcher appeared to be tipping his pitches. Was there more than tipping going on in either case? Like decoding signs, detecting such tells is a legitimate part of the hidden game of baseball. However, despite its long and entertaining history, stealing signs with the help of spies or technology is not.

 

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29174

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Posted

so the indians are blaming the series on us cheating, but we apparently were only "filming their dugout" in game 3?  so in g1/g2 did we just have surveillance equipment installed in the visitor clubhouse/dugout?

and chris correa is honestly trying to compare (or i guess olney was) what he did (corporate espionage/sabotage - highly illegal shit) with the allegation that we were filming inside dugouts (has that been proven, or was this sketchy dude just hovering around?).  on that note, shouldn't mlb be able to seize this guy's device and track and trace what he gathered and where it was sent?

my understanding is that luhnow and his analytics dept collect every piece of information and data that isn't nailed down.  in regards to josh fields, i would guess that some nerd somewhere told our guys, "if you get 0-1, there's a 72% chance he's going breaking ball" or whatever.  small sample size can be used to excuse anything, but if you have enough data points to increase your odds of success, over the long haul, you're likely going to see success (barring injuries, luck, talent, whatever).  if we have enough guys studying film, they'll be able to tell if anyone anywhere is tipping pitches (not just because beltran told them so).

from reading astroball (among other things), one aspect the astros system is very big on is the constant learning/growing mentality when they go after talent.  i'm sure a lot of that is whether our players/coaches will take data given to them and process it correctly enough to execute.  put enough people in the right place with the right info, and if the balls bounce right, you can win the world series.

so here's my question - did luhnow have a guy outside the national league dugout when springer and bregman went back to back in the all-star game?

are we supposed to point to cheating (or not being able to cheat) because the astros offense slumped at home (something we've done and complained about for two years)?  or because we lost a series to the red sox (who won 108 games)?  were the yankees so over-powering that our schemes didn't work 3 games in a row during last year's alcs?  which is it, guys?

the offseason is a brutal bitch.

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Guadaloopy

Guadaloopy 10921

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Buncha crybaby BS by losers.  If the Astros were stealing signs and info, why did they wait until late in each game of the Cleveland series to pull away?  Why did they wait until the end of Game 1 to pull away?  Also, the fact that the Astros still scored 5 and 6 runs in games after they got "caught" is irrelevant to these chumps.

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