2018-19 Big 12 Basketball Thread

[El Diablo 4232]

18 minutes ago, Js1 said:

He's never won @ Kansas.

They just won last year in Waco versus Self.  2013, 2018 in Waco. 2009 and 2012 in the Big 12 tournament.

Makes sense. Don't know where I'd gotten the idea that he'd never won.

[Al_4_ISU 12409]

To be fair, hardly anyone wins at the Phog.  We have 10 wins there, all time, and that's (allegedly - can't find a link but I've heard it multiple times) more than anyone besides Kansas.

[Jhawk 1075]

I always seem to be the drew basher on this site. I think he’s great for what he is and where he is but I also think he could do more with what he has had from a talent standpoint. Some of the athletes he puts on the floor make crazy mismatches and he doesn’t coach them up. Then he has a team like this and he coaches out of his mind. It’s crazy. He’s been at Baylor since 2003:

3-13

1-15

4-12

4-12

9-7

11-5

5-11

7-9

12-6

9-9

9-9

11-7

10-8

12-6

8-10

Not including this year he will be over .500 six times in 15 years. Not really consistently a winner. He always comes strong but his teams ALWAYS falter. Traditionally it has been his lack of willingness to teach defense. He has all of the tools to be a far better coach than what he is, he just refuses to use all of those tools in any given season. 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Jhawk

[VolenteHawk 495]

9 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

To be fair, hardly anyone wins at the Phog.  We have 10 wins there, all time, and that's (allegedly - can't find a link but I've heard it multiple times) more than anyone besides Kansas.

Yeah, it's not unique to struggle there, in that way Drew is like most other coaches.  The crazy Scott Drew fact was before last year (when KU lost 3 home games), he had as many losses in AFH as Bill Self did.  Now (without looking it up) I think it's 13-11 or something.

 

[Js1 85095]

15 minutes ago, VolenteHawk said:

Yeah, it's not unique to struggle there, in that way Drew is like most other coaches.  The crazy Scott Drew fact was before last year (when KU lost 3 home games), he had as many losses in AFH as Bill Self did.  Now (without looking it up) I think it's 13-11 or something.

 

Baylor almost won there last year I think.  KU shot like 70% in the 2nd half to win by a point.

[El Diablo 4232]

24 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I always seem to be the drew basher on this site. I think he’s great for what he is and where he is but I also think he could do more with what he has had from a talent standpoint. Some of the athletes he puts on the floor make crazy mismatches and he doesn’t coach them up. Then he has a team like this and he coaches out of his mind. It’s crazy. He’s been at Baylor since 2003:

3-13

1-15

4-12

4-12

9-7

11-5

5-11

7-9

12-6

9-9

9-9

11-7

10-8

12-6

8-10

Not including this year he will be over .500 six times in 15 years. Not really consistently a winner. He always comes strong but his teams ALWAYS falter. Traditionally it has been his lack of willingness to teach defense. He has all of the tools to be a far better coach than what he is, he just refuses to use all of those tools in any given season. 

He's had two losing seasons in conference since serving the punishment(s) that Dave Bliss brought on the program.

I think as a first time head coach (can we really count ValPo?) he has done fairly well. I think one of the biggest faults that he has had to work on was recruiting over his head and managing the roster. Self/KU can manage the egos that come with high end recruits. Drew has learned some hard lessons along the way and is just now starting to recruit players to fit. He'll always shoot for the stars but the lesser ones are seeming to be more compatible. It really blew up on him last year. Freeman and Mitchell, the assumed scorers for this year both transferred out due to their roles and hurt feelings. He had some luck with redshirts and getting guys to give 5 years. That's not easy to do. His X's and O's have improved but still produces head scratchers.

Edited February 5, 2019 by El Diablo
two

[Jhawk 1075]

Yeah, Baylor has given KU a lot of trouble but KU always seems to come out on top.

FYI, went back and looked at the noncon SOS for baylor under Drew.  That is where he racks up his wins...

324, 313, 330, 334, 336, 286, 218, 237, 330, 236, 117, 171, 172, 257, 110, 282 for an average NCSOS of 253.

Maybe we need to pump the brakes on his coaching ability.  Over the same time span KU's NCSOS average is 86.  I think it is safe to say that Drew might have missed a few more tourneys if he played a tougher schedule.

[Jhawk 1075]

14 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

He's had two losing seasons in conference since serving the punishment(s) that Dave Bliss brought on the program.

I think as a first time head coach (can we really count ValPo?) he has done fairly well. I think one of the biggest faults that he has had to work on was recruiting over his head and managing the roster. Self/KU can manage the egos that come with high end recruits. Drew has learned some hard lessons along the way and is just now starting to recruit players to fit. He'll always shoot for the stars but the lesser ones are seeming to be more compatible. It really blew up on him last year. Freeman and Mitchell, the assumed scorers for this year both transferred out due to their roles and hurt feelings. He had some luck with redshirts and getting guys to give 5 years. That's not easy to do. His X's and O's have improved but still produces head scratchers.

I agree that he is decent, and when you compare his conference record to other coaches not named self then he is pretty close to fitting right in.  But I won't buy the recruiting angle.  The guy has done less with far more than other coaches in the league would have done.  If you don't agree with that then we can agree to disagree there, but what you can't disagree with is that 16 years into a job you aren't "just now" starting to recruit to your team/system.  He's been doing that for at least 10 years and his best teams were over 5 years ago.

You're 100% right on the punishment angle and I think baylor should keep him forever.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Jhawk

[Brian Fantana 6667]

Fuck baylor

[El Diablo 4232]

22 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I agree that he is decent, and when you compare his conference record to other coaches not named self then he is pretty close to fitting right in.  But I won't buy the recruiting angle.  The guy has done less with far more than other coaches in the league would have done.  If you don't agree with that then we can agree to disagree there, but what you can't disagree with is that 16 years into a job you aren't "just now" starting to recruit to your team/system.  He's been doing that for at least 10 years and his best teams were over 5 years ago.

You're 100% right on the punishment angle and I think baylor should keep him forever.

Maybe you've overrated his recruiting classes. I don't know. Hard to say what other coaches would have done, none of them are still around.

[El Diablo 4232]

32 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Yeah, Baylor has given KU a lot of trouble but KU always seems to come out on top.

FYI, went back and looked at the noncon SOS for baylor under Drew.  That is where he racks up his wins...

324, 313, 330, 334, 336, 286, 218, 237, 330, 236, 117, 171, 172, 257, 110, 282 for an average NCSOS of 253.

Maybe we need to pump the brakes on his coaching ability.  Over the same time span KU's NCSOS average is 86.  I think it is safe to say that Drew might have missed a few more tourneys if he played a tougher schedule.

He's a bad coach because he beat the teams he should have? Not following.

['stache 21761]

4 hours ago, VolenteHawk said:

Drew is a very interesting case. He’s obviously a good coach and has gotten better with time. On the one hand, the pinnacle of his resume is two Elite 8 runs when the bracket fell apart (none of those 6 wins came against single digit seeds). On the other hand, he took over a situation as ugly as anything we’ve ever seen and turned it around. On that front he almost doesn’t have a comparison. Bill Snyder lite maybe?

 

Never realized his Elite Eight runs were without beating a single digit seed. Kind of diminishes the only reason I thought he was a good coach. I just remember he took over an awful situation, at a school with awful facilities, and no basketball history, and all of a sudden a bunch of 4 and 5 stars had Baylor on their list. Never added up to me. Then the story where he threatened to deport a guy if he didn't sign. He's scum, I'll never be convinced otherwise.

[El Diablo 4232]

37 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Never realized his Elite Eight runs were without beating a single digit seed. Kind of diminishes the only reason I thought he was a good coach. I just remember he took over an awful situation, at a school with awful facilities, and no basketball history, and all of a sudden a bunch of 4 and 5 stars had Baylor on their list. Never added up to me. Then the story where he threatened to deport a guy if he didn't sign. He's scum, I'll never be convinced otherwise.

It would probably take a lot of searching to find another coach who went into the tourney as a 2 or 3 seed and advanced to the E8 without facing another single digit seed. Probably the only coach to ever do it. And TWICE? Crazy.

[Jhawk 1075]

1 hour ago, El Diablo said:

He's a bad coach because he beat the teams he should have? Not following.

I’m trying to say that he’s had talent. He plays crappy schedules which doesn’t prepare his team for conference play. That along with not coaching his guys up is why he doesn’t win more than 12 games a year in conference. The players have been there, the coaching hasn’t been. His overall record looks great but that’s mainly because of the way he schedules not because he is coaching greatness. 

*i admittedly changed to a more overall convo here

[El Diablo 4232]

13 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I’m trying to say that he’s had talent. He plays crappy schedules which doesn’t prepare his team for conference play. That along with not coaching his guys up is why he doesn’t win more than 12 games a year in conference. The players have been there, the coaching hasn’t been. His overall record looks great but that’s mainly because of the way he schedules not because he is coaching greatness. 

*i admittedly changed to a more overall convo here

I have no idea how his OOC compares to the rest of the conference and that's what you would want to compare I guess, how he looks compared to his peers. With 300+ D1 teams is the average 150? Or is that faulty math on my part? I also don't know how his recruiting classes compare, I don't follow things like that as closely as you apparently do. Maybe you'll be inclined to find out. I know of 3 players that were considered top recruits that he got commits from - Quincy Miller, Perry Jones III and Isaiah Austin. A point guard in the college game is probably more critical than a big. Hell, he took Josh Lomers to an E8, an asthmatic who couldn't play more than 20 minutes a game and only in 2 minute bursts.. But he had Tweety Carter on that team, that's what stirred the drink.

He's had some guys, Dugat, Jerrells, Bruce among others early in his career that had some talent. Not sure if I'd call any of them elite though.

['stache 21761]

53 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

It would probably take a lot of searching to find another coach who went into the tourney as a 2 or 3 seed and advanced to the E8 without facing another single digit seed. Probably the only coach to ever do it. And TWICE? Crazy.

I'm sure plenty of teams have done it, but I probably not twice with the same coach. I remember our final four year in 2004, our bracket was scratch all the way through until we took down the 1 seed St. Joes (undefeated at the time). We played the highest possible seed every round as a 2 seed.

Edited February 5, 2019 by 'stache

[Al_4_ISU 12409]

This is where I remind everyone that Bruce Weber got an elite 8 by beating a 16 seed in the round of 32

[Js1 85095]

1 minute ago, Al_4_ISU said:

This is where I remind everyone that Bruce Weber got an elite 8 by beating a 16 seed in the round of 32

Faced one single digit seed (5 Kentucky)

[VolenteHawk 495]

25 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I'm sure plenty of teams have done it, but I probably not twice with the same coach. I remember our final four year in 2004, our bracket was scratch all the way through, we played the highest possible seed every round as a 2 seed.

No one else has done it at all in the last dozen tournaments or so, when Drew has done it twice.  KU is interestingly the two other kind close near misses (happening twice) but they were a 1 seed, so obviously couldn't technically avoid the 8/9 winner.  But they got all the way out of their region in 2008 beating 16, 8, 12, 10.  They also had a 16, 9, 12, 11 path before losing to Shaka Smart in the EE.

Edit: Michigan State had a 16, 9, 12, 10 also.  Only other mentionable example since the turn of the century.

Edited February 5, 2019 by VolenteHawk

[Jhawk 1075]

46 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

I have no idea how his OOC compares to the rest of the conference and that's what you would want to compare I guess, how he looks compared to his peers. With 300+ D1 teams is the average 150? Or is that faulty math on my part? I also don't know how his recruiting classes compare, I don't follow things like that as closely as you apparently do. Maybe you'll be inclined to find out. I know of 3 players that were considered top recruits that he got commits from - Quincy Miller, Perry Jones III and Isaiah Austin. A point guard in the college game is probably more critical than a big. Hell, he took Josh Lomers to an E8, an asthmatic who couldn't play more than 20 minutes a game and only in 2 minute bursts.. But he had Tweety Carter on that team, that's what stirred the drink.

He's had some guys, Dugat, Jerrells, Bruce among others early in his career that had some talent. Not sure if I'd call any of them elite though.

I'm not sure on you math there but out of 351 teams 72% of them had tougher schedules than what he plays on average.  If you just extrapolate that to the rest of the league then he schedules like crap, but I'm 90% sure that the rest of the league schedules far more difficult than him.  This year the rest of the league NCSOS is; 3, 178, 17, 44, 41, 322, 182, 131, 203.  So he has the 9th hardest schedule in a league of 10.  Incidentally, KSu is 178, tech is 322, TCU is 182, and ISU is 203.  Also noticed that Tech has traditionally scheduled VERY POORLY, having the worst NCSOS in the country last year.

Regarding recruiting, Drew has off years of late but he had amazing years as well.  Since 2005 (picked this year because of the violations), his classes rank 3, 3, 8, 5, 10, 1, 3, 1, 3, 5, 5, 5, 8, 7 when measured against other big 12 schools.  That's a 4.71 average which isn't bad at all, especially for baylor.  So the talent has been there relative to his peers.  Maybe he is performing exactly as he should based on recruiting rankings and maybe I'm way off. I'm not sure what happened recently with his recruiting but recruiting has never been his issue.

My complaints with Drew will always stem from how he used the talent he's had.  He has had years where he has the most length in the country and he chooses to play zone defense and shoot threes.  It is a shit strategy but that's what he does because he doesn't want to teach real defense when he could have been switching nearly everything and almost always had an advantage, and he doesn't run any real offense, just relies of guys to make a play.  I think this is why he has struggled to stay in the top half of the league standings.  I think if you take a coach like Kruger and give him the players that Drew has brought in then you have more consistent and better outcomes.  Once again, maybe Drew is doing exactly as he should and I'm off.  Totally reasonable I suppose but it would be maddening to me as someone who likes consistency.

[Jhawk 1075]

On to a more pressing subject, there was no blood at the top of the league last night.  KU is @ KSU tonight @8pm.  KSU and Baylor are a game behind KU and ISU but this is a huge one.  If it is ugly as shit, I like KSU.  If KU gets to 60 points first then I like the hawks.  These KSU games never scare me but I never doubt that there will be a court storming when we go to Mancrapinnin.

[El Diablo 4232]

5 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

On to a more pressing subject, there was no blood at the top of the league last night.  KU is @ KSU tonight @8pm.  KSU and Baylor are a game behind KU and ISU but this is a huge one.  If it is ugly as shit, I like KSU.  If KU gets to 60 points first then I like the hawks.  These KSU games never scare me but I never doubt that there will be a court storming when we go to Mancrapinnin.

Game behind? In number of games played? Winning % is better at the moment for KSt and BU with 6-2 conference records.

[Jhawk 1075]

1 minute ago, El Diablo said:

Game behind? In number of games played? Winning % is better at the moment for KSt and BU with 6-2 conference records.

Yeah I mean games played.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.  In this league, this year, I'd rather be done playing games than have more to play.  Especially if that one more game to play is a road game.

[El Diablo 4232]

12 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I'm not sure on you math there but out of 351 teams 72% of them had tougher schedules than what he plays on average.  If you just extrapolate that to the rest of the league then he schedules like crap, but I'm 90% sure that the rest of the league schedules far more difficult than him.  This year the rest of the league NCSOS is; 3, 178, 17, 44, 41, 322, 182, 131, 203.  So he has the 9th hardest schedule in a league of 10.  Incidentally, KSu is 178, tech is 322, TCU is 182, and ISU is 203.  Also noticed that Tech has traditionally scheduled VERY POORLY, having the worst NCSOS in the country last year.

Are you sticking with non-con here?

[El Diablo 4232]

Just now, Jhawk said:

Yeah I mean games played.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.  In this league, this year, I'd rather be done playing games than have more to play.  Especially if that one more game to play is a road game.

Agree, lol.

[Jhawk 1075]

Just now, El Diablo said:

Are you sticking with non-con here?

Yep.  Those are Noncon SOS's

[Jhawk 1075]

 

[Js1 85095]

21 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Yeah I mean games played.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.  In this league, this year, I'd rather be done playing games than have more to play.  Especially if that one more game to play is a road game.

Este.

Or, like Texas, being done with Kansas already and having been to Ames and Manhattan.

[Jhawk 1075]

4 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Este.

Or, like Texas, being done with Kansas already and having been to Ames and Manhattan.

That is a pretty favorable position.  We are only done with ISU and UT but I'm damn happy to get done in both series with splits.

[UTDD 362]

32 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

 

Gold, Jerry, gold!  Nice.

[Al_4_ISU 12409]

That KSU/Seinfeld mash up is incredible.

[TXSooner518 2432]

Faced one single digit seed (5 Kentucky)

Nah they were in the 8/9 game also.

[Jhawk 1075]

Commentators are speechless as the students clearly chant "Fuck KU" before tip hahaha.  I love the taters.

[Guest]

Good ole fashioned hate is healthy

[Jhawk 1075]

3 minutes ago, slorch said:

Good ole fashioned hate is healthy

I used to love it with MU.  KSU was never the same but I find myself calling their players cunts and dick fucks right now so I think they're growing on me.

[deter 313]

Refs taking care of the birds.

[Jhawk 1075]

good.  we need it.

[deter 313]

Omg

[Jhawk 1075]

KU should be down 10 and are only down 3.  KU is fucking lucky but I guess KU can play a lot better and KSU is about at its ceiling right now. If I'm looking for a moral victory.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Jhawk

[VolenteHawk 495]

This game is just horribly officiated. Crew in love with the charge, two bad ones on each team. Touch fouls called, hammers not. This crew is falling victim to the atmosphere.

 

[Jhawk 1075]

Just now, VolenteHawk said:

This game is just horribly officiated. Crew in love with the charge, two bad ones on each team. Touch fouls called, hammers not. This crew is falling victim to the atmosphere.

 

I think they're a product of the big12 officiating school.  Shit travel call.

[Jhawk 1075]

Just missed a foul on a ksu 3.

[VolenteHawk 495]

Annnnd a horrible walk call. Crew overwhelmed.

[Jhawk 1075]

Charge call when brown is basically already on the ground and sliding.

[Machinator 32097]

Wow, you guys aren't kidding. Turned it on to see a ghost walk and a bogus charge.

[Jhawk 1075]

It started off in KU's favor for a call or two and then just went crazy both directions.

[ClubWhatever 12087]

Wade is the great plains version of Dylan Osetowski

[VolenteHawk 495]

9 minutes ago, Machinator said:

Wow, you guys aren't kidding. Turned it on to see a ghost walk and a bogus charge.

With the Charlie Moore travel, they’ve gotten 3 or 4 in a row right. Building momentum.

[Wally Pryor 5243]

Weber's never seen a zone, or so it seems.

[Jhawk 1075]

KU should be down right now.  KSU's offense is worse than I thought and I thought it was really bad.