2018-19 Big 12 Basketball Thread

[Jhawk 1075]

Is fucking Baylor going to be in the top Half of the conference in March? I rest my case in the argument on this league sucking squarely on the fact that Baylor is in the top half of the league. 

[El Diablo 4232]

6 hours ago, Jhawk said:

Is fucking Baylor going to be in the top Half of the conference in March? I rest my case in the argument on this league sucking squarely on the fact that Baylor is in the top half of the league. 

Relax, it's January mon. 

[Jhawk 1075]

With KU holding serve next up is a match between KSU and Tech.  I expect the ugliest game of the year or a tech blowout.  If KSU loses then meh, there is plenty of season left and they have upside with Wade coming back.  If Tech loses then I think the have a lot of wins left on the schedule but 3 straight losses might start to get to them.  If we all believe that 13 wins is going to seal the conference championship then having 3 of your 5 losses before the halfway mark isn't a good spot to be in.  Tech would only have 5 road games left in conference (KU, OU, OSU, ISU, TCU) but they have 4 games against the top 3 in conference (KU, @KU, Baylor, @ISU).  

I'm going to say that tech needs a win tonight not only to right the ship but to keep pace ahead of a tough schedule.  If you look at Florida State, they were ranked 13 and lost 3 straight to the #2, 64 107 teams (Kenpom) and they dropped out of the top 25.  If Tech loses they'll drop games to the #13, 43, 41 teams.  Probably won't drop them out of the rankings but they might be ranked around 22-25.

We might be having a "what's wrong with tech" conversation in less than 10 hours.

[Jhawk 1075]

Tech is an absolute abortion on offense. Holy shit they are bad. 

[Tommy Shelby 189]

Yeah, early in the season when teams haven’t jelled yet good defense without a PG can win. Tech doesn’t have a ball distributor or someone to manufacture points in the lane. Just like aggy of old; a fraud. 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

This isn't really a big shock, I've been saying it all year that it was going to catch up with us. Next year it should be a lot better but man we are really missing a Keenan Evans right now.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Jhawk said:

Tech is an absolute abortion on offense. Holy shit they are bad. 

and we've been saying it all season.

[Jhawk 1075]

That was the 3rd tech game I’ve watched and culver makes them look at least decent (like Lawson for Ku). I knew they are awful at pg but all around last night was a different level of suck. 

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

If K-State ends the streak, I think I'm going to be more pissed off than if the streak continues.

[Catdaddyhorn 3462]

Fuck that!! I don't care what team ends the streak just as long as it ends.  14 or 15 straight or whatever the streak is is aabsolutely ridiculous. Makes the conference look like a total joke.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Catdaddyhorn

[El Diablo 4232]

7 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Fuck that!! I don't care what team ends the streak just as long as it ends.  14 or 15 straight or whatever the streak is is aabsolutely ridiculous. Makes the conference look like a total joke.

I try to console myself with the fact that their revenue sport, in a football driven conference, is hoops.

[Js1 87016]

11 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Fuck that!! I don't care what team ends the streak just as long as it ends.  14 or 15 straight or whatever the streak is is aabsolutely ridiculous. Makes the conference look like a total joke.

This.

As long as its not OU.  Fuck them just because.

[Catdaddyhorn 3462]

Considering the size of their state and the lackluster results of their football team they're doing fairly well.  $97 million in revenue at last count. 

 https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article9761414.html

[Jhawk 1075]

If KU football could even be a 7-8 win program we’d be a top 15 athletic department. 

Regarding the streak, if it ends this year I’ll be pissed. It has to end sometime and this is the best year for it but I’ll still be mad, especially if we have a first weekend exit in March. This year had so much potential and to see that potential rotting on the bench would be the worst way for this to end. If it has to be lost I want it lose because tech or ISU went to battle when we both were at full strength. If we lost it to those Niang teams you wouldn’t have heard anything but praise out of me. 

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

16 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

If KU football could even be a 7-8 win program we’d be a top 15 athletic department. 

Regarding the streak, if it ends this year I’ll be pissed. It has to end sometime and this is the best year for it but I’ll still be mad, especially if we have a first weekend exit in March. This year had so much potential and to see that potential rotting on the bench would be the worst way for this to end. If it has to be lost I want it lose because tech or ISU went to battle when we both were at full strength. If we lost it to those Niang teams you wouldn’t have heard anything but praise out of me. 

I was going over this with some buddies yesterday.

With the exception of last year, we've had a team capable of breaking the streak going back to the 2013-2014 squad (Niang's sophomore year; DeAndre Kane at point).  But we always choked somewhere along the way in a games we could have won (and most of them games we were favored in).

Pivotal games for each squad

2013-2014:  @ OU, @ KSU, @ Baylor, @ Texas. @ WVU.  Final Big 12 record 11-7.  KU record:  14-4.  We ended up winning Big 12 tourney and going to the Sweet 16

2014-2015:  @ Baylor, @ TTU, @ KSU, Baylor.  Final Big 12 record 12-6.  KU record:  13-5.  Ended up winning Big 12 tournament.  This was the year we should have done it.  The loss at Baylor was at the buzzer.  TTU was trash that year.  KSU loss was at the buzzer.  One win, and we tie.  Win two, and we win the league.

2015-2016:  @UT, WVU, @ TTU, @ Baylor, Baylor.  FInal Big 12 record 10-8.  KU record 15-3.  Ok, we weren't going to end the streak this year, but we made the Sweet 16.

2016-2017:  @ Baylor, @ TCU, KU, WVU.  Final Big 12 record 12-6.  KU record 16-2.  Win the Big 12 tournament.  Would have been tougher, but possible.

2018-2019:  @ Baylor, KSU, (arguably) @ KU

Edited January 23, 2019 by Al_4_ISU

[Jhawk 1075]

2014-15 was the year.  That ISU team was loaded even with the Kane departure.  Such a balanced scoring team and the roster was packed with oddball guys who were a bad match up all over the court. We were so young and the only real scorer we had was a 10th year junior in Perry Ellis who averaged 13.8 that year.  Mason was a sophomore and his drives weren't falling yet.  He averaged 12.6ppg.  No one else at KU averaged more than 9.4ppg.  That is how you know bill self is a hell of a coach.  He was big12 COY but didn't get a single national nod, which really surprises me looking back on that year and what we had and we still went 27-9.  Amazing really.

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

25 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

2014-15 was the year.  That ISU team was loaded even with the Kane departure.  Such a balanced scoring team and the roster was packed with oddball guys who were a bad match up all over the court. We were so young and the only real scorer we had was a 10th year junior in Perry Ellis who averaged 13.8 that year.  Mason was a sophomore and his drives weren't falling yet.  He averaged 12.6ppg.  No one else at KU averaged more than 9.4ppg.  That is how you know bill self is a hell of a coach.  He was big12 COY but didn't get a single national nod, which really surprises me looking back on that year and what we had and we still went 27-9.  Amazing really.

We went 2-1 against you guys, and seemed to be the better head to head team, but you just didn't step on your dicks the way we did.

That was also the team that got beat by UAB in the 3/14 game.  Which unfortunately is nowhere near the most embarrassing loss in program history.

Gagging on the universe's cock when presented with unprecedented opportunity is the ISU way.  

[Catdaddyhorn 3462]

2011 was the year the streak should've ended.  Texas started off the conference season with a 11 straight wins, 10 of which were by double digits (including a double digit win at Phog Allen).  We then inexplicably lost 3 of our final 5 games. With losses coming to a non-tourney Nebraska squad (19-13), a non-tourney Colorado squad (24-14), and a pretty good Kansas state squad (23-11) which was a 5 seed in the tourney that year.  We totally choked away the championship down the stretch and finished 13-3 in conference that season. 

[Jhawk 1075]

2 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

We went 2-1 against you guys, and seemed to be the better head to head team, but you just didn't step on your dicks the way we did.

That was also the team that got beat by UAB in the 3/14 game.  Which unfortunately is nowhere near the most embarrassing loss in program history.

Gagging on the universe's cock when presented with unprecedented opportunity is the ISU way.  

I don't know why it is that way.  The only thing I can think of is "culture."  I was shocked when you guys hit 47 points monday and just decided to jack up fast 3 pointers for the next 5-6 minutes straight.  Even after a timeout you came out and shot fast shots when it clearly wasn't working.  I just don't understand the constant head banging against the wall when it isn't falling.  Wigginton, Shayok, and babb can all get to the bucket and get to the FT line (have in the past at least).  Get some points the easy way to get the lid off the bucket.

It is like ISU has this worldview where they have to hit a ton of outside shots to win and that really just isn't the case in the big12.  Get that out of the player's minds and you'll win the conference.  KU has only relied on the outside shot twice in 14 seasons.  ISU continues to play like a midmajor and they don't need to do that to win.

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

32 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I don't know why it is that way.  The only thing I can think of is "culture."  I was shocked when you guys hit 47 points monday and just decided to jack up fast 3 pointers for the next 5-6 minutes straight.  Even after a timeout you came out and shot fast shots when it clearly wasn't working.  I just don't understand the constant head banging against the wall when it isn't falling.  Wigginton, Shayok, and babb can all get to the bucket and get to the FT line (have in the past at least).  Get some points the easy way to get the lid off the bucket.

It is like ISU has this worldview where they have to hit a ton of outside shots to win and that really just isn't the case in the big12.  Get that out of the player's minds and you'll win the conference.  KU has only relied on the outside shot twice in 14 seasons.  ISU continues to play like a midmajor and they don't need to do that to win.

That's pretty much the only explanation.  It crosses all sports.  The football team has done it a million times.  It's why Dan McCarney got fired way back when.

I was ripping my hair out watching us continue to jack threes when they weren't falling, and we were drawing fouls every time we attacked the hoop.

I do find the KU "shooting 3's is not legitimate basketball" thing a bit old being as the game is trending that way, but a great team needs to adjust when things aren't working, and the 3 point shot wasn't working.  We didn't adjust, and it was a major contributor to the outcome.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Al_4_ISU

[Jhawk 1075]

9 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

That's pretty much the only explanation.  It crosses all sports.  The football team has done it a million times.  It's why Dan McCarney got fired way back when.

I was ripping my hair out watching us continue to jack threes when they weren't falling, and we were drawing fouls every time we attacked the hoop.

I do find the KU "shooting 3's is not legitimate basketball" thing a bit old being as the game is trending that way, but a great team needs to adjust when things aren't working, and the 3 point shot wasn't working.  We didn't adjust, and it was a major contributor to the outcome.

No joke, that game was the first time I have ever cheered for a KU opponent to shoot threes.  I was actually laughing at 1 pass 35 feet from the basket and then shoot plays.  It was unreal and I was loving it.

The game is definitely trending to a 3 point game but it still isn't a great tactic in the college game where the talent level is all over the board.  Defense, inside scoring, the fast break, and FTs will win 90% of games at the college level.  Many kids shoot the 3 because of ego and many teams decide that the 3 ball is the way to go because it is easier to shoot 3s than it is to coach staunch D and inside scoring.  Basically, the 3 point shot just covers up one or two massive deficiencies elsewhere in my opinion.

My honest opinion is that if you get rid of the 3 point arc we don't win the 2008 championship but we probably win 3-4 other championships since 1990. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Jhawk

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

4 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

No joke, that game was the first time I have ever cheered for a KU opponent to shoot threes.  I was actually laughing at 1 pass 35 feet from the basket and then shoot plays.  It was unreal and I was loving it.

The game is definitely trending to a 3 point game but it still isn't a great tactic in the college game where the talent level is all over the board.  Defense, inside scoring, the fast break, and FTs will win 90% of games at the college level.  Many kids shoot the 3 because of ego and many teams decide that the 3 ball is the way to go because it is easier to shoot 3s than it is to coach staunch D and inside scoring.  Basically, the 3 point shot just covers up one or two massive deficiencies elsewhere in my opinion.

My honest opinion is that if you get rid of the 3 point arc we don't win the 2008 championship but we probably win 3-4 other championships since 1990. 

I wouldn't argue that.  KU has struggled to defend really good 3 point shooting teams over that time frame, and has rarely been an elite shooting team itself.  As I opined up the thread, your consistent ability to score and defend the paint via elite big men has been a huge factor in your Big 12 dominance, and in a one-off tournament setting, would be a lot less susceptible to being beaten by lesser talented squads if 3s didn't exist.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Al_4_ISU

[Js1 87016]

1 hour ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

2011 was the year the streak should've ended.  Texas started off the conference season with a 11 straight wins, 10 of which were by double digits (including a double digit win at Phog Allen).  We then inexplicably lost 3 of our final 5 games. With losses coming to a non-tourney Nebraska squad (19-13), a non-tourney Colorado squad (24-14), and a pretty good Kansas state squad (23-11) which was a 5 seed in the tourney that year.  We totally choked away the championship down the stretch and finished 13-3 in conference that season. 

I hate so much about who you choose to be by bringing this up

['stache 22118]

Can it still be called "bedlam" if nobody gives a shit? I expect attendance of less than half the arena in GIA. 

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

8 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Can it still be called "bedlam" if nobody gives a shit? I expect attendance of less than half the arena in GIA. 

It's just sad that it's come to this.  

Every once and awhile some of my buddies who live in Des Moines look at OKC and think "we could support an NBA team".  I ask if they're ready for Hilton to suffer.  I'm sure there are other factors, but GIA has been sad since the Thunder came along.

['stache 22118]

1 minute ago, Al_4_ISU said:

It's just sad that it's come to this.  

Every once and awhile some of my buddies who live in Des Moines look at OKC and think "we could support an NBA team".  I ask if they're ready for Hilton to suffer.  I'm sure there are other factors, but GIA has been sad since the Thunder came along.

The basketball program chose the absolute worst decade to struggle. In 2004, the basketball team made the Final Four after 20 years of success under Eddie Sutton and the fans were rabid. The football team had been terrible and attendance was terrible but Les Miles took us to the Cotton Bowl  that year and left the following year.  Since then the football team has taken off under Gundy and been consistently good with sizeable crowds, and the basketball team went into steep decline first when Sean Sutton and his substance problem  and Travis Ford being the biggest travesty to hit Oklahoma since Tom Cruise invaded with his terrible Irish accent in the movie Far and Away. The basketball crowds will return, as has been shown during our blips of success, but we have not been able to sustain any level of success since 2005. Even the Marcus Smart teams were terrible in the tournament, and Travis Ford refused to coach him. I wish nothing but bad things for Travis Ford, that charlatan.

[Moby Ric 2058]

14 hours ago, slorch said:

and we've been saying it all season.

3 conference losses in a row.  Moving on to baseball!!

Edited January 23, 2019 by Moby Ric

[Jhawk 1075]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

The basketball program chose the absolute worst decade to struggle. In 2004, the basketball team made the Final Four after 20 years of success under Eddie Sutton and the fans were rabid. The football team had been terrible and attendance was terrible but Les Miles took us to the Cotton Bowl  that year and left the following year.  Since then the football team has taken off under Gundy and been consistently good with sizeable crowds, and the basketball team went into steep decline first when Sean Sutton and his substance problem  and Travis Ford being the biggest travesty to hit Oklahoma since Tom Cruise invaded with his terrible Irish accent in the movie Far and Away. The basketball crowds will return, as has been shown during our blips of success, but we have not been able to sustain any level of success since 2005. Even the Marcus Smart teams were terrible in the tournament, and Travis Ford refused to coach him. I wish nothing but bad things for Travis Ford, that charlatan.

I still can't believe he was there for 8 years.  He owes Phil Forte and that other tiny white dude at least half of his paychecks.

Just looked at his record.. Somehow we was awful at eastern kentucky and fell up to UMASS.  Essentially rode one good season there (I know he had 2 20 win seasons but only 1 would be "good") to OSU.  That is why you don't hire from the midmajor level when there isn't a ton of mm success.  UT fans will tell ya...

Edited January 23, 2019 by Jhawk

[spystud13 2371]

Checking in from TCU’s arena. 

[ChiTownDoc 21326]

JFC, where has Ok state basketball gone?  Iba must be rolling over in his grave.  

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

13 hours ago, Jhawk said:

I still can't believe he was there for 8 years.  He owes Phil Forte and that other tiny white dude at least half of his paychecks.

Just looked at his record.. Somehow we was awful at eastern kentucky and fell up to UMASS.  Essentially rode one good season there (I know he had 2 20 win seasons but only 1 would be "good") to OSU.  That is why you don't hire from the midmajor level when there isn't a ton of mm success.  UT fans will tell ya...

Keiton Page.

https://www.widerightnattylite.com/2012/1/18/2713314/the-flight-of-his-life-a-keiton-page-story

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

9 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

JFC, where has Ok state basketball gone?  Iba must be rolling over in his grave.  

I think it's obvious that Boynton is trying to establish his culture in a throwaway year.

If last year is any indication, the guy can coach when he has some horses, and it seemed like he was starting to draw fans back in.  I think if they give him another two years, OSU basketball will be doing pretty well.  Not Eddie Sutton good, but better than Travis Ford.

['stache 22118]

He'

13 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I think it's obvious that Boynton is trying to establish his culture in a throwaway year.

If last year is any indication, the guy can coach when he has some horses, and it seemed like he was starting to draw fans back in.  I think if they give him another two years, OSU basketball will be doing pretty well.  Not Eddie Sutton good, but better than Travis Ford.

I think you're spot on. I think he can coach and he's not putting up with shit. And for what it's worth, his incoming recruiting class is better on paper than any class Eddie ever brought in. Eddie was a master at taking average talent and making them really good, and when he got really good talent, they usually were great. If Boynton can coach, which I think he can, he can have more success than Eddie overall I think. But I also don't think he'll stick around too long if he succeeds. If he becomes a desired coach, I just hope he  holds out for a blueblood and doesn't take a lateral move. Lot of ifs, but I'm optimistic next year will be completely different. 

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

16 minutes ago, 'stache said:

He'

I think you're spot on. I think he can coach and he's not putting up with shit. And for what it's worth, his incoming recruiting class is better on paper than any class Eddie ever brought in. Eddie was a master at taking average talent and making them really good, and when he got really good talent, they usually were great. If Boynton can coach, which I think he can, he can have more success than Eddie overall I think. But I also don't think he'll stick around too long if he succeeds. If he becomes a desired coach, I just hope he  holds out for a blueblood and doesn't take a lateral move. Lot of ifs, but I'm optimistic next year will be completely different. 

I'd probably pump the brakes on the "better than Sutton" talk, but I agree that he has a high ceiling.

I don't know that he'll be in a hurry to get out of Stillwater if he can win there.  It seems like your fanbase has really embraced him, and OSU definitely went out on a limb to hire him (sounds suspiciously like what transpired between us and Hoiberg).  If he wins, and the crowds come back to GIA, I think he'd hang around for awhile.

 

Also, your team reminds me a ton of our squad last year.  Some talented starters who aren't that experienced, and have absolutely no depth.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Al_4_ISU

[VolenteHawk 495]

21 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

2011 was the year the streak should've ended.  Texas started off the conference season with a 11 straight wins, 10 of which were by double digits (including a double digit win at Phog Allen).  We then inexplicably lost 3 of our final 5 games. With losses coming to a non-tourney Nebraska squad (19-13), a non-tourney Colorado squad (24-14), and a pretty good Kansas state squad (23-11) which was a 5 seed in the tourney that year.  We totally choked away the championship down the stretch and finished 13-3 in conference that season. 

You can throw 2009 in there.  KU replaced every starter off the title team and won the league by a game after stealing a win in Norman when Blake Griffin didn't play.

 

[Jhawk 1075]

I'd love to see OSU back at the top of the conference.  Those games between self and sutton were just awesome even though there weren't many. KU's record against Eddie under Self..

@ IBa - Loss 60-80 (2003-04), W 64-49 (2005-06)

@AFH - Win 81-79 (2004-05), 

Conference Tourney - Loss 75-78 (2004-05), Win 63-62 (2005-06)

The best part was you could tell they were great friends.  Eddie is probably my favorite coach ever outside of Self.

[ChiTownDoc 21326]

3 hours ago, VolenteHawk said:

You can throw 2009 in there.  KU replaced every starter off the title team and won the league by a game after stealing a win in Norman when Blake Griffin didn't play.

 

Wasn’t Blake concussed at Texas the game before?  XII was brutal that year.  More physical than usual.    

Edited January 24, 2019 by ChiTownDoc

[Jhawk 1075]

Yep. That was the willie warren v. Sherron Collins show. They basically just ran down the court and popped 3s in each other’s face for about a 3 minute stretch. It was pretty ridiculous. 

[76Jayhawk 44]

3 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

Yep. That was the willie warren v. Sherron Collins show. They basically just ran down the court and popped 3s in each other’s face for about a 3 minute stretch. It was pretty ridiculous. 

God I remember the game thread on reddit for that, even non-Big 12 fans were like wtf is this game,

[Jhawk 1075]

Cole Aldrich went for 15 and 20 that game.  Tysahwn and Sherron each had 26. Warren had 23.  KU pulled away and won 87-78 but it was just an intense game.  If Griffin would have played it could have been one of the most intense games over the last decade for the hawks.

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

2009 was about the height of my not paying attention to regular season college basketball because Greg McDermott was still holding ISU basketball's head under water with a sinister grin on his face.

Never trust a Purple Hawkeye.

[DeadArmadillo 907]

nm

Edited January 25, 2019 by DeadArmadillo

[Machinator 32102]

1 minute ago, DeadArmadillo said:

f

 

[DeadArmadillo 907]

1 minute ago, Machinator said:

 

Muchos Garcias

[El Diablo 4232]

BXII/SEC Challenge Preview/Schedule/Predictions

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/secbig-12-challenge-schedule-preview-predictions-odds-tv-channel-live-stream-watch-online/

[Underdog 29109]

Guess we can discuss the challenge in here instead of the CBB thread?  

Not sure wtf Ole Miss is wearing. Both TCU/ISU pitching shutouts early on. 

[SimonBolivar 11040]

Halftime

 

ISU up 5

Baylor up 6

 TCU up 12

 

We'll see how the 2nd halves go.

[Al_4_ISU 12617]

That’ll do boys.  That’ll do.

[SimonBolivar 11040]

3-0 Big XII so far.

[Underdog 29109]

Impressive win for the Clones, Rebs have been playing well of late.