Making a Murderer: Part 2 (Netflix)

[Buzzrock 14941]

[Neonmoon 38130]

[Eskimohorn 5642]

Wellwerewaiting

[BigOrange1 6471]

 

[BigOrange1 6471]

 

[Buddy Hinton 103]

Now retired detective Andy Colborn has a filed a lawsuit against Netflix and the makers of MaM

"Defendants omitted, distorted, and falsified material and significant facts in an effort to portray (Colborn) as a corrupt police officer who planted evidence to frame an innocent man. Defendants did so with actual malice and in order to make the film more profitable and more successful in the eyes of their peers..." the lawsuit states.

An exhibit attached to the lawsuit is a transcript of Colborn's testimony, showing his entire examination by the district attorney was omitted in the documentary, and portions of his testimony under cross-examination were edited or omitted.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Buddy Hinton

[Buzzrock 14941]

Does he have a case? It’s all public record.

[immortal13 4059]

16 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

Now retired detective Andy Colborn has a filed a lawsuit against Netflix and the makers of MaM

"Defendants omitted, distorted, and falsified material and significant facts in an effort to portray (Colborn) as a corrupt police officer who planted evidence to frame an innocent man. Defendants did so with actual malice and in order to make the film more profitable and more successful in the eyes of their peers..." the lawsuit states.

An exhibit attached to the lawsuit is a transcript of Colborn's testimony, showing his entire examination by the district attorney was omitted in the documentary, and portions of his testimony under cross-examination were edited or omitted.

Aww they made the poor dirty cop look bad. Fuck that guy

[Neonmoon 38130]

Corrupt Cop opens himself up to discovery and deposition 

Bold move cotton

[pepper brooks 580]

Colburn getting cross examined by Zellner and opening himself up to discovery by her team is most definitely a bold move.  

[lateshow 1308]

1 hour ago, pepper brooks said:

Colburn getting cross examined by Zellner and opening himself up to discovery by her team is most definitely a bold move.  

I would pay money to watch that tool get cross examined by Zellner. 

[Buddy Hinton 103]

It will be interesting. The Netflix show apparently left a lot information and evidence out.

For instance, Brendan Dassey's confession was much more detailed than the show let on 

So far Zellner has blown a lot smoke but has yet to back any of her theories up. I believe this is all a PR stunt for Zellner

[pepper brooks 580]

1 hour ago, Buddy Hinton said:

It will be interesting. The Netflix show apparently left a lot information and evidence out.

For instance, Brendan Dassey's confession was much more detailed than the show let on 

So far Zellner has blown a lot smoke but has yet to back any of her theories up. I believe this is all a PR stunt for Zellner

I get that dassey's "confession" had things left out, but what does it matter?  We know with 100% certainty the murder did not happen in the manner he confessed it happened.  There is not one single fiber of forensic evidence in support of his confession.  Not.  One.  so who cares if they left out huge swaths of his confession.  It is a work of fiction led by dirty cops looking to place the murder at the hands of a guy they had wrongfully imprisoned previously, and who had just won 36 million from a dirt poor county.  

[hayden_horn 11365]

1 hour ago, Buddy Hinton said:

It will be interesting. The Netflix show apparently left a lot information and evidence out.

For instance, Brendan Dassey's confession was much more detailed than the show let on 

So far Zellner has blown a lot smoke but has yet to back any of her theories up. I believe this is all a PR stunt for Zellner

well, except she has actual exonerations under her belt. 

there is too much fantasy involved in the state's case, and that's even if you've allowed yourself to believe that avery did it. just the story of the murder itself, the finding of the bullet in that messy garage (except somehow miraculously cleaned of blood!), the finding of the key, and the way the blood evidence appears clearly planted - it's all just a tremendously callous attempt to get this guy without thought of tracking down the real killer.

that it was always manitowoc deputies finding miraculous evidence (they were supposed to be recused in lieu of calumet county deputies), or the timing and location of the evidence. it's all a sham, an obvious case of legal railroading. and they would have gotten away with it, no problem at all, if those pesky documentary filmmakers hadn't been there. think about that for a minute.

secondly, on zellner's newest little bombshell - if those bones are indeed halbach's, then she was burned at he gravel property and her remains transported to avery's house and the burn barrel. there's no way avery would seek to dump partial remains at he gravel pit after he supposedly burned her on his property.

 

[immortal13 4059]

5 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

It will be interesting. The Netflix show apparently left a lot information and evidence out.

For instance, Brendan Dassey's confession was much more detailed than the show let on 

So far Zellner has blown a lot smoke but has yet to back any of her theories up. I believe this is all a PR stunt for Zellner

They may have left some things out, but they certainly included enough to prove the confession was coerced and that Dassey was fed facts to regurgitate that he had no knowledge of. My money is on Zellner. I think she is going to fuck their shit up and I can't wait till she does.

Edited December 18, 2018 by immortal13
I suck at proof-reading

[Deej 76924]

Zellner is going to turn out to be Manitowoc County's worst nightmare. 

[pepper brooks 580]

1 minute ago, Deej said:

Zellner is going to turn out to be Manitowoc County's worst nightmare. 

I think heavy inbreeding is that county's worst nightmare, but Zellner is definitely going to expose the corrupt underbelly of it all. 

[blacklab 11951]

There's an okie version of this on netflix now called "The Innocent man"

If MaM pissed you off, just wait till you hear this story.

 

[immortal13 4059]

28 minutes ago, blacklab said:

There's an okie version of this on netflix now called "The Innocent man"

If MaM pissed you off, just wait till you hear this story.

 

How can it possibly be worse? I'll have to give that a watch.

MaM has left me with zero doubt that at the very least, Colburn and Kratz should have to share the cell Brendan Dassey has been living in for the same amount of years he has been rotting in there. There is no way that kid had anything to do with the murder.  And we may never know if Avery really did it due to those dumbfuck's perversion of the crime scene and evidence. 

[Buzzrock 14941]

I’m usually one to give the benefit of the doubt. But Kratz is absolute scum. How does he continue to get air time in all of this? I guess you have to have a villain.

[BigOrange1 6471]

8 hours ago, blacklab said:

There's an okie version of this on netflix now called "The Innocent man"

If MaM pissed you off, just wait till you hear this story.

 

i've watched 5 of the 6 episodes thus far and yeah, it's pretty hard to believe. 

[Buddy Hinton 103]

I was on the same side as most in this thread until I started reading & listening to some things outside the Netflix version.

If you boil it all down, most of the 2 seasons they focused on the Avery family hardship and a bunch of theories and gotcha moments that never materialize. Zellner's re-enactments and tests for the cameras are somewhat ridiculous and most certainly wouldn't hold up in court 

Calumet County was the lead investigating agency with the help of state & federal. So all these people got behind Manitowoc County to frame Avery?  That is an awful big conspiracy and a lot of people put their careers on the line.

Sounds like Dassey's confession matched up with the physical evidence resented at trial.

In Dassey's confession, he told them that Avery had shot TH in the head in the garage and was specific about the shooting. He told them that he helped Avery clean the garage with bleach the night TH disappeared. He gave the police his bleached stained jeans that he was wearing. A more extensive search of the garage was performed once Dassey told them she was killed in garage. They found traces of blood but couldn't determine if it was human or not, but did determine that the concrete had been cleaned with paint thinner and bleach. Just like Dassey said it had.

Also, in recorded calls from jail, Dassey tells his mom he participated.  

 

 

[Buzzrock 14941]

If they ever make a movie about MaM then Tea Leoni needs to play that tv reporter. Dead ringer.

[blacklab 11951]

Really Buddy?

Dassey said they raped and stabbed her in Avery's trailer, yet somehow they cleaned so well not one drop of blood or one hair was found. 

So somehow they managed to clean every piece of evidence, and then put everything back to make it look like no one had cleaned anything in 20 years?

How did the 22 make it through her head and then end up with not blood, but some waxy substance on it?

It didn't take a full blown conspiracy with everyone in on it. It just took a couple of people to plant a couple of things. 

[Buzzrock 14941]

If you liked MaM and TIM, and you want to keep the raeg burning, watch The Keepers.

[Buddy Hinton 103]

43 minutes ago, blacklab said:

Really Buddy?

Dassey said they raped and stabbed her in Avery's trailer, yet somehow they cleaned so well not one drop of blood or one hair was found. 

So somehow they managed to clean every piece of evidence, and then put everything back to make it look like no one had cleaned anything in 20 years?

How did the 22 make it through her head and then end up with not blood, but some waxy substance on it?

It didn't take a full blown conspiracy with everyone in on it. It just took a couple of people to plant a couple of things. 

 She was tied in the bed and then taken out to the garage and stabbed and shot. Dassey says he heard 5 shots. They found a bullet with TH's DNA.

From Dassey:

MAY 13, 2006 - CALUMET CO. SHERIFF'S OFFICE 

DASSEY: He went to go pick up some stuff around the yard then after that we, he asked me to come in the house cuz he wanted to show me somethin'. And he showed me that she was laying on the bed, her hands were roped up to the bed and that her legs were cuffed. And then he told me to have sex with her and so I did because I thought I was not gonna get away from 'em cuz he was too strong, so I did what he said and then after that, he untied her and uncuffed her and then he brought her outside and before he went outside, he told me to grab her clothes and her shoes. So we went into the garage and before she went out, when before he took her outside, he had tied up her hands and feet and then was in the garage and he stabbed her and then he told me to. And, after that he wanted to make sure she was dead or somethin' so he shot her five times and while he was doing that I wasn't looking because I can't watch that stuff. So I was standing by the big door in the garage and then after that, he took her outside and we put her on the fire and we used her clothes to clean up the, some of the blood. And, when we put her in the fire, and her clothes, we were standing right by the garage, to wait for it to get down so we threw some of that stuff on it after it went down.

 

So you really think that with the scrutiny that this case has been through, a couple of cops could plant a few things and no one would ever be none the wiser? That a couple of cops pulled off the perfect frame up? A crime that was investigated by other agencies and now has been re-investigated numerous times.

Really?

I'm not claiming everything they did as far the confession is on the up & up. That is above my pay grade. But courts all the way up the chain think so. The Supreme Court did not think it had merit.

 

[blacklab 11951]

Which way do you think she was killed? The way they described in the Dassey trial? or the one in the Avery trial?

[BigOrange1 6471]

On 12/18/2018 at 4:03 PM, Deej said:

Zellner is going to turn out to be Manitowoc County's worst nightmare. 

Quote

 

Colborn’s civil lawsuit presumes that the only facts that matter are what’s in the trial record; however, should the case move forward, the defendant’s’ right to discovery would go well beyond the bounds of Avery and Dassey’s criminal trials. Zellner likes the sound of that.

“We are thrilled that Colborn filed this lawsuit [because] he will have to testify under oath about all of the issues that have swirled around him for years. Everything about the first wrongful conviction will be exhaustively explored as well. From having observed the meticulous, painstaking, uncompromisingly ethical work of Ricciardi and Demos for 2.5 years they have to be amused but not in the least threatened by this frivolous lawsuit. For us it is an early Christmas present.”

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/steven-avery-making-a-murderer-lawsuit-netflix-colborn-zellner-771241/

[Telegraph_it 3359]

She was stabbed repeatedly in the garage by two individuals, and they found no blood at all? The only evidence found is a single bullet with no bone matter,  and this bullet was the supposed fatal shot to the head?

The narrative provided by the prosecution falls apart right here. 

[Buddy Hinton 103]

25 minutes ago, blacklab said:

Which way do you think she was killed? The way they described in the Dassey trial? or the one in the Avery trial?

Don't know.

You just told us that she was killed in the trailer. I pointed out that he confessed that she was killed in the garage.

[Buddy Hinton 103]

6 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

She was stabbed repeatedly in the garage by two individuals, and they found no blood at all? The only evidence found is a single bullet with no bone matter,  and this bullet was the supposed fatal shot to the head?

The narrative provided by the prosecution falls apart right here. 

What part of the garage was cleaned with paint thinner and bleach didn't you understand?

Apparently the narrative did not fall apart as they were convicted by a jury

[BigOrange1 6471]

7 minutes ago, Buddy Hinton said:

Don't know.

You just told us that she was killed in the trailer. I pointed out that he confessed that she was killed in the garage.

in brendan dassey's trial they hypothesized that her throat was slit in the trailer (pretty sure that would have killed her).  let's just ignore the fact that there is not one piece of physical evidence that supports this theory.  are you saying that you think they slit her throat in the trailer but she stayed alive long enough for them to move her to the garage and shoot her in the head??

[Buddy Hinton 103]

24 minutes ago, BigOrange1 said:

in brendan dassey's trial they hypothesized that her throat was slit in the trailer (pretty sure that would have killed her).  let's just ignore the fact that there is not one piece of physical evidence that supports this theory.  are you saying that you think they slit her throat in the trailer but she stayed alive long enough for them to move her to the garage and shoot her in the head??

I'm not saying anything other than there is a shit load of evidence and documentation on these cases that MaM left out. Stuff that doesn't make these two look so innocent. I believe Dassey was a simple minded kid that got coerced into this mess by his uncle. Steven Avery appears to be a slightly less simple minded deviant with anger issues. The other family members other than the parents don't exactly go bat for the two of them

Everyone that Steven Avery has accused of the crime has been other family members.

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Buddy Hinton

[Kyle 207]

5 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

I was on the same side as most in this thread until I started reading & listening to some things outside the Netflix version.

If you boil it all down, most of the 2 seasons they focused on the Avery family hardship and a bunch of theories and gotcha moments that never materialize. Zellner's re-enactments and tests for the cameras are somewhat ridiculous and most certainly wouldn't hold up in court 

Calumet County was the lead investigating agency with the help of state & federal. So all these people got behind Manitowoc County to frame Avery?  That is an awful big conspiracy and a lot of people put their careers on the line.

Sounds like Dassey's confession matched up with the physical evidence resented at trial.

In Dassey's confession, he told them that Avery had shot TH in the head in the garage and was specific about the shooting. He told them that he helped Avery clean the garage with bleach the night TH disappeared. He gave the police his bleached stained jeans that he was wearing. A more extensive search of the garage was performed once Dassey told them she was killed in garage. They found traces of blood but couldn't determine if it was human or not, but did determine that the concrete had been cleaned with paint thinner and bleach. Just like Dassey said it had.

Also, in recorded calls from jail, Dassey tells his mom he participated.  

I'm generally in your camp. I got into True Crime with Serial like most of the nation, and followed up with the requisite Making a Murder and Robin Hood Hills among others. Two things became clear:

1. All of these so-called documentaries are agenda-driven promotional devices that leave out virtually anything that does not support one side

2. Not even politics today generates the polarization and passion of True Crime

I am convinced there are thousands of wrongful convictions across the country. After doing a decent amount of research from diverse sources, I am not convinced that these popular cases are examples. And I am convinced it is virtually impossible to have a reasonable, rational discussion around these cases.

As an aside, this is a fascinating story. Alstory Simon allegedly was framed by Northwestern students seeking to free another inmate as an "innocence project.".

"A Murder in the Park" on Netflix recounts the story.

[deech 2291]

54 minutes ago, Buddy Hinton said:

Don't know.

You just told us that she was killed in the trailer. I pointed out that he confessed that she was killed in the garage.

So how did the blood get in the Jeep?  When they moved her body from the garage into the burn pit less than 10 feet from the garage?  I missed that part in Brendan's confession that you cited.  The differences between the May confession you cite and the videos a few months earlier are pretty shocking.  Now she was shot five times when he couldn't even answer in the video interrogation a few months earlier what they did to her head when the cops lead him there.  As for the confession to his Mom that was covered in MAM.  

Surprisingly in eight one hour TV segments (16 if you include both seasons) they were unable to cover the entire history of Avery's initial trial and  every single piece of evidence from Dassey's eight day trial and Avery's multi-week trial.  No shit.

I get that Avery is not a good guy and I've read myself all that they left out.  

I can completely understand the possibility it was Avery. 

Dassey had nothing to do with it.

 

[Buddy Hinton 103]

1 hour ago, deech said:

So how did the blood get in the Jeep?  When they moved her body from the garage into the burn pit less than 10 feet from the garage?  I missed that part in Brendan's confession that you cited.  The differences between the May confession you cite and the videos a few months earlier are pretty shocking.  Now she was shot five times when he couldn't even answer in the video interrogation a few months earlier what they did to her head when the cops lead him there.  As for the confession to his Mom that was covered in MAM.  

Surprisingly in eight one hour TV segments (16 if you include both seasons) they were unable to cover the entire history of Avery's initial trial and  every single piece of evidence from Dassey's eight day trial and Avery's multi-week trial.  No shit.

I get that Avery is not a good guy and I've read myself all that they left out.  

I can completely understand the possibility it was Avery. 

Dassey had nothing to do with it.

 

So how did the blood get in the Jeep?  When they moved her body from the garage into the burn pit less than 10 feet from the garage?  

Avery wanted to dump the body in a pond, put her in back of the RAV, but the pond was dry. Brought her back to the burn pit.

Surprisingly in eight one hour TV segments (16 if you include both seasons) they were unable to cover the entire history of Avery's initial trial and  every single piece of evidence from Dassey's eight day trial and Avery's multi-week trial.  No shit.

Yeah. No shit. That is my point. Of course, they didn't have time to cover everything. But the stuff they seem to have left out is the stuff that points to Avery & Dassey.

In MaM2 they make a big deal about the guy (a Kevin Rahmlow) that says he reported a car like TH to officer Colborn at the gas station in 2004 and he never did anything. Well turns out Colborn wasn't even on duty that day so it couldn't have been him. Didn't mention that. They also didn't mention that Colborn had arrested that guy in 2006 for DUI.

Did they mention that Teresa Halbach's cell phone, camera and PDA were found in the burn barrel? I don't remember that

It's missing information that raises huge red flags as to the fairness of this documentary.

Like I stated previously, I can get the sympathy for Dassey and the life without parole is too harsh for a slow 16 year old. But to say he nothing to do with it doesn't appear to be true either

Pulled this off a website:

During his interviews with police, Dassey explained how he and Avery burned Halbach’s body, and covered it with old tires, brush, and wood. Investigators found Halbach’s’ charred bones in the fire pit “intertwined” with the steel belts from the car tires they threw over Halbach’s body.

Investigators found a tooth belonging to Teresa Halbach, and a rivet from the jeans she was wearing the day she was murdered. Police also found the tools Avery used to dismember Halbach during the fire.

The kid did commit a few crimes there

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Buddy Hinton

[immortal13 4059]

So he drove to a pond that he didn't know was dry? Ok, Kenneth

[deech 2291]

I went back and re-read the 5/13 interview cited above.  First she has pubic hair, then she doesn't.  First her neck is slit, then he stabbed her in the stomach.  First they shot her 10 times, then Steven shot her five times.  First, he never saw the Jeep and Steven and him killed her and put her in the Fire.  Then after Factbender and Weigert press him and tell him they know she was put in the back of the jeep, he gives in and concedes that Steven did it.  Then they put the body in the Jeep because he was going to crush it and then he decided to just put her in the Fire.  Then they use the creeper thing to bring her to the Fire and then he says they didn't.  Then he went with Avery in the Jeep to the pit, then he didn't.  Then he confesses in this same interview that you cite as some compelling confession that he was just guessing when he told them in the March interrogation video that Steven got under the hood and he pulled the license plates off.  Then the knife they used from the murder was put in the Jeep under the front seat which there was never any blood found under the seat or a knife for that matter.  Initially he said he cut her hair off in the bedroom, but in the later interview he said that they got the knife from the garage.

 

Anyone who reads that confession and believes it to be true is regarded.

[immortal13 4059]

Or a cop

[BigOrange1 6471]

8 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

Pulled this off a website:

During his interviews with police, Dassey explained how he and Avery burned Halbach’s body, and covered it with old tires, brush, and wood. Investigators found Halbach’s’ charred bones in the fire pit “intertwined” with the steel belts from the car tires they threw over Halbach’s body.

Investigators found a tooth belonging to Teresa Halbach, and a rivet from the jeans she was wearing the day she was murdered. Police also found the tools Avery used to dismember Halbach during the fire.

 

how exactly is your going and pulling shit like this off a website -- the final "confession" the cops were able to get out of him -- without acknowlding that end result came after hours of the cops leading him in that direction while dassey stumbled through conflicting response after conflicting response in an effort to get to where the cops wanted him to be, different than what you're accusing the filmmakers of doing?  you ignore all context that lead to that final "confession" and just focus upon it as if it was gospel truth.

[Telegraph_it 3359]

11 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

What part of the garage was cleaned with paint thinner and bleach didn't you understand?

Apparently the narrative did not fall apart as they were convicted by a jury

With the described method of murder, the complete lack of evidence is damning. The amount of blood produced from stabbing someone in one room and then moving the victim to another room would be substantial. I am sure she did not move stoically either, she was probably thrashing around sending blood splatter in every direction.

But sure. With some paint thinner and bleach, Avery cleaned up everything and left one bullet with no bone matter. 

The crafted narrative worked as intended, with a jury conviction. Further scrutiny shows this narrative is not possible. 

[riloh05 107]

10 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

So how did the blood get in the Jeep?  When they moved her body from the garage into the burn pit less than 10 feet from the garage?  

Avery wanted to dump the body in a pond, put her in back of the RAV, but the pond was dry. Brought her back to the burn pit.

Surprisingly in eight one hour TV segments (16 if you include both seasons) they were unable to cover the entire history of Avery's initial trial and  every single piece of evidence from Dassey's eight day trial and Avery's multi-week trial.  No shit.

Yeah. No shit. That is my point. Of course, they didn't have time to cover everything. But the stuff they seem to have left out is the stuff that points to Avery & Dassey.

In MaM2 they make a big deal about the guy (a Kevin Rahmlow) that says he reported a car like TH to officer Colborn at the gas station in 2004 and he never did anything. Well turns out Colborn wasn't even on duty that day so it couldn't have been him. Didn't mention that. They also didn't mention that Colborn had arrested that guy in 2006 for DUI.

Did they mention that Teresa Halbach's cell phone, camera and PDA were found in the burn barrel? I don't remember that

It's missing information that raises huge red flags as to the fairness of this documentary.

Like I stated previously, I can get the sympathy for Dassey and the life without parole is too harsh for a slow 16 year old. But to say he nothing to do with it doesn't appear to be true either

Pulled this off a website:

During his interviews with police, Dassey explained how he and Avery burned Halbach’s body, and covered it with old tires, brush, and wood. Investigators found Halbach’s’ charred bones in the fire pit “intertwined” with the steel belts from the car tires they threw over Halbach’s body.

Investigators found a tooth belonging to Teresa Halbach, and a rivet from the jeans she was wearing the day she was murdered. Police also found the tools Avery used to dismember Halbach during the fire.

The kid did commit a few crimes there

 

how did they replace the dust exactly how it was after all of the clean up?

[Neonmoon 38130]

18 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

I was on the same side as most in this thread until I started reading & listening to some things outside the Netflix version.

If you boil it all down, most of the 2 seasons they focused on the Avery family hardship and a bunch of theories and gotcha moments that never materialize. Zellner's re-enactments and tests for the cameras are somewhat ridiculous and most certainly wouldn't hold up in court 

Calumet County was the lead investigating agency with the help of state & federal. So all these people got behind Manitowoc County to frame Avery?  That is an awful big conspiracy and a lot of people put their careers on the line.

Sounds like Dassey's confession matched up with the physical evidence resented at trial.

In Dassey's confession, he told them that Avery had shot TH in the head in the garage and was specific about the shooting. He told them that he helped Avery clean the garage with bleach the night TH disappeared. He gave the police his bleached stained jeans that he was wearing. A more extensive search of the garage was performed once Dassey told them she was killed in garage. They found traces of blood but couldn't determine if it was human or not, but did determine that the concrete had been cleaned with paint thinner and bleach. Just like Dassey said it had.

Also, in recorded calls from jail, Dassey tells his mom he participated.  

 

 

I appreciate the new facts about Colbert not being on duty the day he was told of the car, and him arresting the imformant for DUI earlier. Maybe Colburn wasn’t the corrupt cop, maybe he was just incompetent. Either way, I am hopeful more facts to come to light in his libel lawsuit and deposition. 

That being said, you presenting Dassey confession as fact to corrobate the states case is asinine. If you read his entire confession and questioning, you could create about 12 different versions of the supposed crime. Only after the officers supplied certain facts and corralled the story they were looking to obtain, did any kind of coherent narrative emerge. 

 

[Buddy Hinton 103]

2 hours ago, BigOrange1 said:

how exactly is your going and pulling shit like this off a website -- the final "confession" the cops were able to get out of him -- without acknowlding that end result came after hours of the cops leading him in that direction while dassey stumbled through conflicting response after conflicting response in an effort to get to where the cops wanted him to be, different than what you're accusing the filmmakers of doing?  you ignore all context that lead to that final "confession" and just focus upon it as if it was gospel truth.

But isn't that what you are doing? Watching chopped up snippets of Dassey interviews from the confession for dramatic purposes and then passing judgement?

The difference is there is a Jury trial and decision that was appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and upheld as a valid confession.

Again, I'm not saying there weren't probably issues with the confession or the handling of the case.

I'm more commenting on the apparent blatant omissions of any information that made Avery & Dassey look guilty by the filmmakers. If you read a little bit on the whole premise of the story that the County needed to frame him to get out of a lawsuit, that BS too. The same people were still liable for the false imprisonment and the county insurance paid out a $400,000 settlement in that case. Nobody named in that suit was even still working for the county

[Buddy Hinton 103]

5 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I appreciate the new facts about Colbert not being on duty the day he was told of the car, and him arresting the imformant for DUI earlier. Maybe Colburn wasn’t the corrupt cop, maybe he was just incompetent. Either way, I am hopeful more facts to come to light in his libel lawsuit and deposition. 

That being said, you presenting Dassey confession as fact to corrobate the states case is asinine. If you read his entire confession and questioning, you could create about 12 different versions of the supposed crime. Only after the officers supplied certain facts and corralled the story they were looking to obtain, did any kind of coherent narrative emerge. 

 

 Anybody that interviews without an attorney is asking for trouble. We can all agree on that. I whole hardheartedly agree they coerced a simpleton. But I have the opinion they were coercing the one person that knew about the crimes committed by Avery

I read he was asked more than once if he wanted to stop and get an attorney, as was his mother and they both declined. But I haven't read that for myself.

Again you guys are acting like its me that ruled all this was permissible.

Hell I was all fired up halfway through the 2nd season for Avery & Dassey. Then it just kind of ended with a wimper. It just didn't add up. All those silly tests that Zellner did that didn't do anything but fill up part of a documenty

I'm just saying my opinion changed as to the guilt of Avery & Dassey

[BigOrange1 6471]

17 minutes ago, Buddy Hinton said:

I'm just saying my opinion changed as to the guilt of Avery & Dassey

so how did they do it?  walk me through it.

[CurlyDumps 4484]

14 hours ago, Kyle said:

I'm generally in your camp. I got into True Crime with Serial like most of the nation, and followed up with the requisite Making a Murder and Robin Hood Hills among others. Two things became clear:

1. All of these so-called documentaries are agenda-driven promotional devices that leave out virtually anything that does not support one side

2. Not even politics today generates the polarization and passion of True Crime

I am convinced there are thousands of wrongful convictions across the country. After doing a decent amount of research from diverse sources, I am not convinced that these popular cases are examples. And I am convinced it is virtually impossible to have a reasonable, rational discussion around these cases.

As an aside, this is a fascinating story. Alstory Simon allegedly was framed by Northwestern students seeking to free another inmate as an "innocence project.".

"A Murder in the Park" on Netflix recounts the story.

The Robin Hood Hills case was without a doubt a wrongful conviction. Any "diverse source" you've researched that leads you to be unconvinced is not diverse in a good way. It's going to rely on bogus information that's been warped and distorted over the years, hokey rumors, criminally bad police work, and bullshit hearsay to make a case.  All peddled by weirdos who have developed a bizarre hatred toward the WM3, and an obsession with proving their guilt.  

The most unbiased sources of information I've found are two podcasts -  "Truth and Justice" and "Real Crime Profile." Truth and Justice did a massive season investigating the case from the beginning (which is currently on hiatus due to undisclosed recent developments in the case). Real Crime Profile is hosted by  a former FBI profiler who focuses on behavior and criminal profiling based on what the evidence tells us.

The bottom line is that there is zero physical evidence tying the WM3 to the crime, and they do not fit the profile of the offender(s) based on what the actual evidence tells us. 

This case is a *classic* example of innocent people being railroaded by inept pieces of shit working in Law Enforcement.

Edited December 20, 2018 by CurlyDumps

[Neonmoon 38130]

1 hour ago, Buddy Hinton said:

 Anybody that interviews without an attorney is asking for trouble. We can all agree on that. I whole hardheartedly agree they coerced a simpleton. But I have the opinion they were coercing the one person that knew about the crimes committed by Avery

I read he was asked more than once if he wanted to stop and get an attorney, as was his mother and they both declined. But I haven't read that for myself.

Again you guys are acting like its me that ruled all this was permissible.

Hell I was all fired up halfway through the 2nd season for Avery & Dassey. Then it just kind of ended with a wimper. It just didn't add up. All those silly tests that Zellner did that didn't do anything but fill up part of a documenty

I'm just saying my opinion changed as to the guilt of Avery & Dassey

After reading you believe they coerced the witness, but somehow luckily coerced the guilty one which makes it cool...you and I are just not going to see eye to eye on a lot of things. So I’m just going to move on with my day

[deech 2291]

3 hours ago, BigOrange1 said:

how exactly is your going and pulling shit like this off a website -- the final "confession" the cops were able to get out of him -- without acknowlding that end result came after hours of the cops leading him in that direction while dassey stumbled through conflicting response after conflicting response in an effort to get to where the cops wanted him to be, different than what you're accusing the filmmakers of doing?  you ignore all context that lead to that final "confession" and just focus upon it as if it was gospel truth.

http://jenniferjslate.com/2016/01/06/brendan-dassey-confession-and-trial-transcripts/

57 minutes ago, Buddy Hinton said:

But isn't that what you are doing? Watching chopped up snippets of Dassey interviews from the confession for dramatic purposes and then passing judgement?

The difference is there is a Jury trial and decision that was appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and upheld as a valid confession.

Again, I'm not saying there weren't probably issues with the confession or the handling of the case.

I'm more commenting on the apparent blatant omissions of any information that made Avery & Dassey look guilty by the filmmakers. If you read a little bit on the whole premise of the story that the County needed to frame him to get out of a lawsuit, that BS too. The same people were still liable for the false imprisonment and the county insurance paid out a $400,000 settlement in that case. Nobody named in that suit was even still working for the county

The Supreme Court never heard the issue of whether the confession was valid.  The 7th Circuit never heard the issue of whether the confession was valid. The issue presented was:

Whether the Wisconsin Court of Appeals unreasonably applied the Supreme Court’s precedent when it held that a confession made by a juvenile with significant intellectual and social limitations was voluntary—and, if so, whether on de novo review the confession was involuntary.

 

So let's not pretend there is some legal precedent about the validity of the confession.  The only courts I believe to evaluate the validity of the confession was the trial court and the criminal appeals that were done at the State level.

 

You put the onus on the filmmakers to put everything that shows they are guilty into an eight episode documentary.  That's impossible.  The only glaring omission of evidence was the hood sweat evidence which was included in Season 2 and maybe a bleach stain on Dassey's pants.  The rest of the omissions were excluded by the trial judge himself via the Rules of Evidence.  They did present the opinions of Avery's defense team and the family.  Obviously, they are going to be slanted towards Avery/Dassey.  They asked the State or the family to participate and they all declined. 

I don't have a problem with someone saying the documentary was slanted, but there were hundreds of hours of testimony and exhibits from two trials that had to be condensed into eight hours.  All things considered, I think the filmmakers did a good job going into the depth that they did.

 

 

[deech 2291]

8 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

After reading you believe they coerced the witness, but somehow luckily coerced the guilty one which makes it cool...you and I are just not going to see eye to eye on a lot of things. So I’m just going to move on with my day

Not to mention that Brendan was also Avery's alibi witness and the state had used every means they had available to initially coerce his girlfriend at the time.  Only after she made it clear the coercion was not going to work did they finally move on to Brendan (I believe it was the same week that she restricted their access to visit her).