Making a Murderer: Part 2 (Netflix)

[Kyle 207]

29 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

The Robin Hood Hills case was without a doubt a wrongful conviction. Any "diverse source" you've researched that leads you to be unconvinced is not diverse in a good way. It's going to rely on bogus information that's been warped and distorted over the years, hokey rumors, criminally bad police work, and bullshit hearsay to make a case.  All peddled by weirdos who have developed a bizarre hatred toward the WM3, and an obsession with proving their guilt.  

The most unbiased sources of information I've found are two podcasts -  "Truth and Justice" and "Real Crime Profile." Truth and Justice did a massive season investigating the case from the beginning (which is currently on hiatus due to undisclosed recent developments in the case). Real Crime Profile is hosted by  a former FBI profiler who focuses on behavior and criminal profiling based on what the evidence tells us.

The bottom line is that there is zero physical evidence tying the WM3 to the crime, and they do not fit the profile of the offender(s) based on what the actual evidence tells us. 

This case is a *classic* example of innocent people being railroaded by inept pieces of shit working in Law Enforcement.

I will respectfully disagree with you, but yours certainly is the majority point of view. I tried to listen to the T&J podcast, but IMHO that guy is laughable.  Ironically, Tim Clemente's profile of the killer, which fit Damien Echols perfectly, was one of the funnier moments. However, of the three cases, I think the RHH case is the weakest of the three. I do not know if I would have voted to convict if I had been on the jury, but I also can separate that from thinking they committed the crime. As I said previously, I respect everyone's POV and realize in 90% of criminal cases strong arguments can be made for guilt and innocence, and it is not easy to sort through the noise and distractions on either side.

[Buzzrock 14941]

Maybe I’m overreacting, but after watching these two documentaries I don’t think law enforcement should be able to interrogate someone like that without legal counsel present. Law enforcement should want the proper procedure to be followed and to make sure there are no improper techniques applied (I’m sure in some cases they don’t want that) during the interrogation.

The one 7th Circuit judge said the interrogation made her skin crawl. That shouldn’t happen.

I’d rather see a few guilty men go free than to have a few locked up when they are innocent.

[CurlyDumps 4484]

1 minute ago, Kyle said:

I will respectfully disagree with you, but yours certainly is the majority point of view. I tried to listen to the T&J podcast, but IMHO that guy is laughable.  Ironically, Tim Clemente's profile of the killer, which fit Damien Echols perfectly, was one of the funnier moments. However, of the three cases, I think the RHH case is the weakest of the three. I do not know if I would have voted to convict if I had been on the jury, but I also can separate that from thinking they committed the crime. As I said previously, I respect everyone's POV and realize in 90% of criminal cases strong arguments can be made for guilt and innocence, and it is not easy to sort through the noise and distractions on either side.

 

Quote

IMHO that guy is laughable

Why is he "laughable"?  Did you know his work has directly resulted in an innocent man (Ed Ates) being released from prison in Texas?  That doesn't mean you have to like him or agree with him, but to not take him seriously or acknowledge him as credible makes you look like a jerk.

Quote

Ironically, Tim Clemente's profile of the killer, which fit Damien Echols perfectly, was one of the funnier moments

Tim Clemente did not profile the killer. He analyzed Jesse Misskelley's confession.  I mean, huh?  I'm completely mystified by this comment. 

Anyway sorry for derailing the thread.  We obviously are on opposite ends of this case.  I think you've been horribly misguided, but to each his own.

 

 

 

 

[hayden_horn 11365]

17 hours ago, blacklab said:

Which way do you think she was killed? The way they described in the Dassey trial? or the one in the Avery trial?

i see that there is no reasonable answer yet to this very reasonable question. "i don't know" isn't a reasonable answer. 

even the police and the prosecution don't know how she was killed. we know this because there are two different ways presented in two different trials.

that, by itself, indicates a railroad job and complete disinterest in actual justice for halbach. 

it's going to take a lot of evidence to convince me that kratz, colburn, and the rest of manitowoc county law enforcement didn't concoct most of the evidence that ultimately convicted these guys.

"i don't know" how she was killed introduces a fuckton of doubt into the prosecution's case. there are too many bad facts in the prosecution's case, and kratz knows it, and that's why he cannot stay out of the spotlight. that dude is a fucking creep. but he thinks if he stays on the offensive, he can come out on top.

thing is, he might be right. i still cannot believe that the confession wasn't overturned. that by itself is fucking shameful. 

[hayden_horn 11365]

also, someone will have to help me recall, how in the fuck are the prosecution allowed to present two different narratives in the same murder for two different defendants? 

if i recall correctly, and it has been some time, the trial judge in avery's trial did not allow the defense to present the PUBLIC RECORD of dassey's trial, showing that he prosecution now had a different story. Or maybe i have that backwards.

that should not be legal. that alone should insert a fuckton of doubt into the equation.

[Buzzrock 14941]

I also think that Avery’s first lawyers didn’t have enough killer instinct. Once they knew they were going after law enforcement they should have gone for the jugular instead of letting some of those big moments just hang in the air (hey Colburn, if you weren’t looking at the vehicle when you called that plate in, what the fuck WERE you looking at?).

[Telegraph_it 3359]

7 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

also, someone will have to help me recall, how in the fuck are the prosecution allowed to present two different narratives in the same murder for two different defendants? 

if i recall correctly, and it has been some time, the trial judge in avery's trial did not allow the defense to present the PUBLIC RECORD of dassey's trial, showing that he prosecution now had a different story. Or maybe i have that backwards.

that should not be legal. that alone should insert a fuckton of doubt into the equation.

And how does Dassey neglect to leave any evidence that ties him to either story used for conviction? Maddening. 

[hayden_horn 11365]

1 minute ago, Telegraph_it said:

And how does Dassey neglect to leave any evidence that ties him to either story used for conviction? Maddening. 

probably because the police didn't have unfettered access to his blood as they had with avery.

[deech 2291]

13 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

also, someone will have to help me recall, how in the fuck are the prosecution allowed to present two different narratives in the same murder for two different defendants? 

if i recall correctly, and it has been some time, the trial judge in avery's trial did not allow the defense to present the PUBLIC RECORD of dassey's trial, showing that he prosecution now had a different story. Or maybe i have that backwards.

that should not be legal. that alone should insert a fuckton of doubt into the equation.

Prosecutor in Avery trial didn't use Dassey confessions.  Defense could have called Dassey as a witness but that would open a nuclear bag of disasters for them if they did it themselves.  

[Buzzrock 14941]

So who went back and accessed the blood vial? Seems like they just dropped that after the FBI test.

[Kyle 207]

53 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

Why is he "laughable"?  Did you know his work has directly resulted in an innocent man (Ed Ates) being released from prison in Texas?  That doesn't mean you have to like him or agree with him, but to not take him seriously or acknowledge him as credible makes you look like a jerk.

Tim Clemente did not profile the killer. He analyzed Jesse Misskelley's confession.  I mean, huh?  I'm completely mystified by this comment. 

Anyway sorry for derailing the thread.  We obviously are on opposite ends of this case.  I think you've been horribly misguided, but to each his own.

I apologize and stand corrected. You are right - I mis-remembered about Clemente. My bad.

Ates is a good example of why I think that guy is laughable. He literally did nothing to get Ates released from prison but misguides people into believing he did to generate financial support. Ates was paroled. He would have been without the podcast. Similarly, I believe he parrots the work of the Texas Innocence Project as his own, and his "investigation" to my knowledge has never led to anything other than a few crazy, rabid fans that have doxed people for the crime of disagreeing with their messiah. I think the Texas Innocence Project does great work, and I would encourage anyone to donate directly to it vs. a guy who monetizes tragedy and misleads people.

Personally, I was banned from his fan page for asking questions as were many others, which to me does not speak to wanting to find the truth but rather monetize tragedy. One of his minions stalked me on other platforms, which I found really creepy. I find people who seek to silence questions or opposition always suspect. As often parodied, he claims to be an investigator but literally did not notice funds being stolen from his small fire department and was fired.

Similarly, apologies for the derail, but I wanted to acknowledge my mistake. You probably have, but there are several good sites out there that not only have original sources available but also contradict some of the myths commonly accepted as truth. That does not mean every site is 100% accurate, but I think a balanced perspective is helpful. As I said, I respect your opinion and do not know if I would have voted guilty, but I do believe they committed the crime based on several factors in addition to the confessions. I acknowledge each may be attacked discretely, but taken together a pretty clear picture is painted in my mind - they did it or are the three unluckiest people in the world. Right or (mostly) wrong, watching other True Crime stories I have seen people convicted (unfortunately) on far less evidence.

[Kyle 207]

58 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

also, someone will have to help me recall, how in the fuck are the prosecution allowed to present two different narratives in the same murder for two different defendants? 

if i recall correctly, and it has been some time, the trial judge in avery's trial did not allow the defense to present the PUBLIC RECORD of dassey's trial, showing that he prosecution now had a different story. Or maybe i have that backwards.

that should not be legal. that alone should insert a fuckton of doubt into the equation.

I agree universally that this is problematic and unjust. Unless there is some new, clear and compelling evidence, it is not just to allow prosecutors to present different theories of the same crime from one defendant to the other. And that new evidence should be considered as part of defendant one's appeal.

[deech 2291]

2 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

So who went back and accessed the blood vial? Seems like they just dropped that after the FBI test.

From my understanding, it was later determined that they had to do a blood pull from the vial for a DNA test and I believe a medical type admitted they had done it to do the blood pull for the DNA test as that is what they always do.

[blacklab 11951]

when they put blood in the vial they add a chemical to stabilize the blood. The blood in the car did not have this chemical, so it wasn't from the vial.

it was probably from his sink

[Buddy Hinton 103]

8 hours ago, BigOrange1 said:

so how did they do it?  walk me through it.

You tell me how and why the massive frame up? Why would a bunch a people put everything on the line to frame up this guy? To save an insurance company money from a lawsuit?

Boy the police sure got lucky that the guy they needed to frame just happened:

1.to call up a girl,- a girl that he had answered the door in just a bath robe earlier and which she had told her office she would not go back to see. Then he hides his phone number and give his sisters name and phone number to conceal his identity. 

2. to have a cut that magically re-opens so the police can break in his trailer and extract that blood and plant in the RAV. I'm not real sure how the police would that he had been bleeding and knew to break in the house and the opportunity to do so.

3. to have a fire in his burn pit the night she disappeared that the neighbor saw

He sure played right into their hands and frame job. So well that none of the other agencies that were working the investigation clued into anything fishy.

You would also think an innocent man would want to testify on his own behalf.

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Buddy Hinton

[Deej 76923]

Maybe because they didn't want to, or couldn't afford to, pay out $36 million.

[Buzzrock 14941]

when they put blood in the vial they add a chemical to stabilize the blood. The blood in the car did not have this chemical, so it wasn't from the vial.
it was probably from his sink

Didn’t the expert for the defense say that the test was inconclusive?

[Telegraph_it 3359]

33 minutes ago, Buddy Hinton said:

Why would a bunch a people put everything on the line to frame up this guy? To save an insurance company money from a lawsuit?

I mean they did it once already... not a stretch to do it again. 

[Helobious 9464]

50 minutes ago, Buddy Hinton said:

You would also think an innocent man would want to testify on his own behalf.

 

That’s almost always a horrible idea no matter how innocent you are.

[BigOrange1 6471]

2 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

You tell me how and why the massive frame up? Why would a bunch a people put everything on the line to frame up this guy? To save an insurance company money from a lawsuit?

Boy the police sure got lucky that the guy they needed to frame just happened:

1.to call up a girl,- a girl that he had answered the door in just a bath robe earlier and which she had told her office she would not go back to see. Then he hides his phone number and give his sisters name and phone number to conceal his identity. 

2. to have a cut that magically re-opens so the police can break in his trailer and extract that blood and plant in the RAV. I'm not real sure how the police would that he had been bleeding and knew to break in the house and the opportunity to do so.

3. to have a fire in his burn pit the night she disappeared that the neighbor saw

He sure played right into their hands and frame job. So well that none of the other agencies that were working the investigation clued into anything fishy.

You would also think an innocent man would want to testify on his own behalf.

 

so you don't actually have a working theory as to how they committed the murder, yet you're sure they did it.

[Goo Punch 4275]

9 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

i see that there is no reasonable answer yet to this very reasonable question. "i don't know" isn't a reasonable answer. 

even the police and the prosecution don't know how she was killed. we know this because there are two different ways presented in two different trials.

that, by itself, indicates a railroad job and complete disinterest in actual justice for halbach. 

it's going to take a lot of evidence to convince me that kratz, colburn, and the rest of manitowoc county law enforcement didn't concoct most of the evidence that ultimately convicted these guys.

"i don't know" how she was killed introduces a fuckton of doubt into the prosecution's case. there are too many bad facts in the prosecution's case, and kratz knows it, and that's why he cannot stay out of the spotlight. that dude is a fucking creep. but he thinks if he stays on the offensive, he can come out on top.

thing is, he might be right. i still cannot believe that the confession wasn't overturned. that by itself is fucking shameful.

for me, and i'm probably in the minority here, the thing that has stuck out to me above all through everything i've seen and read, was how drastically different the two 7th circuit judges (the man and woman who each spoke the most during that portion of the doc) saw dassey's confession. it's beyond disturbing to me that you can go that high up in the American judicial system and find judges who see the same thing through drastically different lenses. i 100% after with the woman who said that the interrogation made her skin crawl, and as shocking to me as it was to hear the male judge say that he "saw nothing wrong with the interrogation", that it was "standard", and that he saw a mentally competent person who in his eyes was guilty and was lying to save his own ass, it's equally as shocking to me that we could have such division at such a high level of court. how can that be?

it was also interesting to me that the female judges (save one cunt) seemed to see dassey the same way most of us see him (slow, scared, easily infuelnced and duped, searching for the right answers so he can "go home"), while every single mle judge simply saw a guilty kid trying to lie. i'm not 100% there's anything to read into that, but i'm leaning towards the idea that there is something there. 

[deech 2291]

26 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

for me, and i'm probably in the minority here, the thing that has stuck out to me above all through everything i've seen and read, was how drastically different the two 7th circuit judges (the man and woman who each spoke the most during that portion of the doc) saw dassey's confession. it's beyond disturbing to me that you can go that high up in the American judicial system and find judges who see the same thing through drastically different lenses. i 100% after with the woman who said that the interrogation made her skin crawl, and as shocking to me as it was to hear the male judge say that he "saw nothing wrong with the interrogation", that it was "standard", and that he saw a mentally competent person who in his eyes was guilty and was lying to save his own ass, it's equally as shocking to me that we could have such division at such a high level of court. how can that be?

it was also interesting to me that the female judges (save one cunt) seemed to see dassey the same way most of us see him (slow, scared, easily infuelnced and duped, searching for the right answers so he can "go home"), while every single mle judge simply saw a guilty kid trying to lie. i'm not 100% there's anything to read into that, but i'm leaning towards the idea that there is something there. 

 

I would say that the male judges across the board never watched or listened to the actual confession tapes.  They make a simple decision in favor of AEDPA and against doing any type of look into anything that happened.

 

[immortal13 4059]

11 hours ago, Telegraph_it said:

And how does Dassey neglect to leave any evidence that ties him to either story used for conviction? Maddening. 

Cause he's criminal mastermind, duh.

[Kyle 207]

20 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

You tell me how and why the massive frame up? Why would a bunch a people put everything on the line to frame up this guy? To save an insurance company money from a lawsuit?

Boy the police sure got lucky that the guy they needed to frame just happened:

1.to call up a girl,- a girl that he had answered the door in just a bath robe earlier and which she had told her office she would not go back to see. Then he hides his phone number and give his sisters name and phone number to conceal his identity. 

2. to have a cut that magically re-opens so the police can break in his trailer and extract that blood and plant in the RAV. I'm not real sure how the police would that he had been bleeding and knew to break in the house and the opportunity to do so.

3. to have a fire in his burn pit the night she disappeared that the neighbor saw

He sure played right into their hands and frame job. So well that none of the other agencies that were working the investigation clued into anything fishy.

You would also think an innocent man would want to testify on his own behalf.

In watching the police on the original show, nothing gave me the impression individually or collectively they offered the intellect or savvy to pull off such a complex conspiracy. Sure it is possible, but if so those guys should be hired by the CIA. Not to stereotype, but I have not encountered directly or indirectly too many small town cops super motivated to do much beyond the bare minimum to cash a check. I agree I would be really surprised they were so worried about their county's insurance company to risk their careers. Again, possible but feels less likely than reasonable alternatives.

[immortal13 4059]

1 hour ago, Kyle said:

In watching the police on the original show, nothing gave me the impression individually or collectively they offered the intellect or savvy to pull off such a complex conspiracy. Sure it is possible, but if so those guys should be hired by the CIA. Not to stereotype, but I have not encountered directly or indirectly too many small town cops super motivated to do much beyond the bare minimum to cash a check. I agree I would be really surprised they were so worried about their county's insurance company to risk their careers. Again, possible but feels less likely than reasonable alternatives.

That's why they did such a shitty job

[Buddy Hinton 103]

19 hours ago, BigOrange1 said:

so you don't actually have a working theory as to how they committed the murder, yet you're sure they did it.

Okay. I'll play.

He calls this girl he has met before, conceals his identity and lures her to the property and when she gets there he over powers her.

He uses the leg and arm constraints that he had purchased the week before (verified, says he bought for his girlfriend who was in jail at the time)  - which is another random event that fell right into the lap for this massive police frame up

He does his stuff. When Dassey gets him home from school he gets him involved and Dassey does what his uncle tells him to.

Rest of it like Dassey says. Take her out to garage/kill her/put in the RAV to take her to the pond/bring her back and put her in the burn pile and have a fire

In the midst of this, its verified Avery called her phone again, but this time doesn't conceal his number - trying to establish alibi? (again random but helpful for the police master plan)

They clean up the garage. Hide the car. He can't crush it because it would have alerted his brothers by him running the crusher.

What do you think happened to Ms Halbach?

[Neonmoon 38130]

12 minutes ago, Buddy Hinton said:

Okay. I'll play.

He calls this girl he has met before, conceals his identity and lures her to the property and when she gets there he over powers her.

He uses the leg and arm constraints that he had purchased the week before (verified, says he bought for his girlfriend who was in jail at the time)  - which is another random event that fell right into the lap for this massive police frame up

He does his stuff. When Dassey gets him home from school he gets him involved and Dassey does what his uncle tells him to.

Rest of it like Dassey says. Take her out to garage/kill her with a gun with bullets that have wax on them but no bone fragments or DNA put in the RAV to take her to the pond/bring her back and put her in the burn pile and have a fire. After wiping down the entire house, burning the body, and hiding the car, they just throw the RAV key on the floor in their house, because Fuck it. 

In the midst of this, its verified Avery called her phone again, but this time doesn't conceal his number - trying to establish alibi? (again random but helpful for the police master plan)

They clean up the garage. They also clean up the house because her throat was slit on the bed but no blood was found. They spray dust everywhere. Hide the car in plain sight. He can't crush it because it would have alerted his brothers by him running the crusher. 

Knowing he just brutally raped and killed a girl and hid her car on his lot, he willfully lets a search party search his lot for the missing girl and her car. 

Avery definitely did it, he killed a girl right before he was about to receive 36 million dollars. 

I added a just a few details you were missing 

[immortal13 4059]

21 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I added a just a few details you were missing 

Don't forget about the bones

[Buddy Hinton 103]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

I added a just a few details you were missing 

with a gun with bullets that have wax on them but no bone fragments or DNA  : the bullet had her DNA on hit. The wax the show made a big deal about was from the ballistics test. That info came from Zellner's own ballistics expert

After wiping down the entire house, burning the body, and hiding the car, they just throw the RAV key on the floor in their house, because Fuck it.  They were searching the shelf and collecting pornographic material from the shelf. After the search, they noticed the key behind the shelf.   

They also clean up the house because her throat was slit on the bed but no blood was found. They spray dust everywhere. I don't believe  they did any stabbing inside the house. My opinion. The car wasn't in plain sight though

Knowing he just brutally raped and killed a girl and hid her car on his lot, he willfully lets a search party search his lot for the missing girl and her car. He wasn't home when a volunteer showed up to search. He and Delores Avery had left to go to their cabin. His brothers gave the permission to search the property

Avery definitely did it, he killed a girl right before he was about to receive 36 million dollars. Again a MaM fabrication. He was suing for up to 36 million dollars. No similar cases have settled for anywhere near that amount. He settled the case for $400,000. I'm sure he would have received more without the Halbach case but nowhere near 36 million. I'm sure some attorneys on this board could comment further than me.

This was a guy with an IQ barely above his nephew. This guy soaked his family cat in gasoline and threw it in a fire.

Not a guy that prone to rational decisions.

Anything else to add?

 

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Buddy Hinton

[Deej 76923]

After the sixth search of the shelf, they found the key. 

That's some good police work there, Lou.

[Kyle 207]

4 hours ago, immortal13 said:

That's why they did such a shitty job

Just to confirm, you think the sheriff's office hatched a conspiracy to frame Steven Avery for murder, and he was convicted, so you consider that a "shitty" job? What would a good job be?

What is their motive for framing him? Do you genuinely think a couple of cops would risk losing their jobs and possibly jail time to save the county's insurance company a million dollars? Cool if you do, but is that you really believe? And that makes more sense to you than all the evidence against Avery? Are there other example of cops framing wrongfully convicted suspects of a subsequent crime to protect an insurance company? That does not mean this could not be the unique case, but does this frequently happen?

Edited December 22, 2018 by Kyle

[Neonmoon 38130]

2 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

with a gun with bullets that have wax on them but no bone fragments or DNA  : the bullet had her DNA on hit. The wax the show made a big deal about was from the ballistics test. That info came from Zellner's own ballistics expert

After wiping down the entire house, burning the body, and hiding the car, they just throw the RAV key on the floor in their house, because Fuck it.  They were searching the shelf and collecting pornographic material from the shelf. After the search, they noticed the key behind the shelf.   

They also clean up the house because her throat was slit on the bed but no blood was found. They spray dust everywhere. I don't believe  they did any stabbing inside the house. My opinion. The car wasn't in plain sight though

Knowing he just brutally raped and killed a girl and hid her car on his lot, he willfully lets a search party search his lot for the missing girl and her car. He wasn't home when a volunteer showed up to search. He and Delores Avery had left to go to their cabin. His brothers gave the permission to search the property

Avery definitely did it, he killed a girl right before he was about to receive 36 million dollars. Again a MaM fabrication. He was suing for up to 36 million dollars. No similar cases have settled for anywhere near that amount. He settled the case for $400,000. I'm sure he would have received more without the Halbach case but nowhere near 36 million. I'm sure some attorneys on this board could comment further than me.

This was a guy with an IQ barely above his nephew. This guy soaked his family cat in gasoline and threw it in a fire.

Not a guy that prone to rational decisions.

Anything else to add?

 

 

You jump through a lot of hoops to fit your narrative and ignore anything that’s doesn’t match. 

“I don’t believe they did any stabbing inside the house” - Well the police presented that as fact in one of the trials. And Dassey said it in his confession which you totally believe. So you only believe parts of his confession that fit your narrative?

You also forgot the dust everywhere on a cleaned up garage crime scene. They were so amazing at cleaning up the garage but yet somehow the garage appears to not have been cleaned in 20 years. 

And I mentioned the key specifically because you believe they took the time to clean the garage, burn the body, hide the car, but yet throw the car key on the ground in their house. That’s a pretty big leap. 

 

[Neonmoon 38130]

9 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Just to confirm, you think the sheriff's office hatched a conspiracy to frame Steven Avery for murder, and he was convicted, so you consider that a "shitty" job? What would a good job be?

What is their motive for framing him? Do you genuinely think a couple of cops would risk losing their jobs and possibly jail time to save the county's insurance company a million dollars? Cool if you do, but is that you really believe? And that makes more sense to you than all the evidence against Avery? Are there other example of cops framing wrongfully convicted suspects of a subsequent crime to protect an insurance company? That does not mean this could not be the unique case, but does this frequently happen?

I don’t think there was a large conspiracy to frame him. Small town cops did what small town cops always do. They make charges stick. The car was found on his property. After that happened, he was guilty in their minds. The dominoes that fall after are just minor things to convict an already guilty man in their mind.They got a bullshit confession out of Dassey. It wasn’t bullshit to them. They KNOW he was guilty, they just have to get Dassey to say the right things. 

 

[Kyle 207]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

I don’t think there was a large conspiracy to frame him. Small town cops did what small town cops always do. They make charges stick. The car was found on his property. After that happened, he was guilty in their minds. The dominoes that fall after are just minor things to convict an already guilty man in their mind.They got a bullshit confession out of Dassey. It wasn’t bullshit to them. They KNOW he was guilty, they just have to get Dassey to say the right things.

That seems significantly more plausible than the yarn the Netflix show tries to spin. Lazy cops looking for an easy clearance I'll buy seven days a week.

[Buddy Hinton 103]

14 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

You jump through a lot of hoops to fit your narrative and ignore anything that’s doesn’t match. 

“I don’t believe they did any stabbing inside the house” - Well the police presented that as fact in one of the trials. And Dassey said it in his confession which you totally believe. So you only believe parts of his confession that fit your narrative?

You also forgot the dust everywhere on a cleaned up garage crime scene. They were so amazing at cleaning up the garage but yet somehow the garage appears to not have been cleaned in 20 years. 

And I mentioned the key specifically because you believe they took the time to clean the garage, burn the body, hide the car, but yet throw the car key on the ground in their house. That’s a pretty big leap. 

 

I answered everything with readily available information. These are common claims based on people that believe this BS documentry. I'm not one jumping through hoops. You just repeated a bunch of debunked claims by the defense You are the one buying a Netflix documentary.

I have agreed that not everything fits perfectly based on his confession. But it not unusual for somebody trying to hide things to change their story over a course of confession.

I keep asking for others theory on what happened. So far I have not got a response

Reading this thread, it was this perfectly executed frame up by dirty cops.

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Buddy Hinton
sorry. a few cocktails

[immortal13 4059]

It wasn't perfectly executed, you obtuse fucker. There were mistakes galore...did you even watch the show? What is hilarious is you and Kyle taking the position that it couldn't possibly be an intentional frame-up, as if cops never try to frame suspects or that they had no motive to frame Avery and Dassey in this case. 

[CurlyDumps 4484]

On 12/20/2018 at 12:53 PM, Kyle said:

I apologize and stand corrected. You are right - I mis-remembered about Clemente. My bad.

Ates is a good example of why I think that guy is laughable. He literally did nothing to get Ates released from prison but misguides people into believing he did to generate financial support. Ates was paroled. He would have been without the podcast. Similarly, I believe he parrots the work of the Texas Innocence Project as his own, and his "investigation" to my knowledge has never led to anything other than a few crazy, rabid fans that have doxed people for the crime of disagreeing with their messiah. I think the Texas Innocence Project does great work, and I would encourage anyone to donate directly to it vs. a guy who monetizes tragedy and misleads people.

Excerpt from a direct statement from Allison Clayton, Ed Ates' attorney and deputy director of the Texas Innocence project:

Quote

"All of this started because one man (and his army) understood that good people can make a difference in this world when they fight for truth and for justice. Even if the fight consists of just listening and becoming educated about a case - showing up matters. Truth & Justice Army, you are a source of inspiration and hope for me - a reminder that there are good people in the world and in every walk of life who still care. This good thing has happened to a good man and his precious family because of you. You are the difference makers. Bob Ruff, Truth And Justice Podcast Fans."

https://innocencetexas.org/news/itx-client-ed-ates-free-on-parole

I know this is about a completely different case, but there are a lot of posters I like participating in this thread, so...

PSA: troll alert.

[CurlyDumps 4484]

I see that go-to talking point often.  I've seen it in the Adnan Syed discussions.

"It would have taken a maaaaassive conspiracy to pull that off!"  

"Either he's guilty, or he's the unluckiest guy in the world!"

There are thousands of innocent people sitting in prison who aren't the victims of massive conspiracies.  And it's not always about dirty corrupt cops trying to frame someone.  It can be one cop who gets tunnel vision.

FTR I haven't followed the Avery case closely enough to have an opinion either way, but the "massive conspiracy" argument is strawman horseshit.

[Kyle 207]

1 hour ago, CurlyDumps said:

Excerpt from a direct statement from Allison Clayton, Ed Ates' attorney and deputy director of the Texas Innocence project:

https://innocencetexas.org/news/itx-client-ed-ates-free-on-parole

I know this is about a completely different case, but there are a lot of posters I like participating in this thread, so...

PSA: troll alert.

So you take a press release from his buddy as an official statement from the Texas Department of Justice? I'm not shocked that failed fireman would get a pat on the back from his friend. Do you have any actual evidence, i.e. from the Texas Department of Justice or do you take all press releases as infallible?

PSA: Jessie Misskelley IQ alert.

[Kyle 207]

53 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

I see that go-to talking point often.  I've seen it in the Adnan Syed discussions.

"It would have taken a maaaaassive conspiracy to pull that off!"  

"Either he's guilty, or he's the unluckiest guy in the world!"

There are thousands of innocent people sitting in prison who aren't the victims of massive conspiracies.  And it's not always about dirty corrupt cops trying to frame someone.  It can be one cop who gets tunnel vision.

FTR I haven't followed the Avery case closely enough to have an opinion either way, but the "massive conspiracy" argument is strawman horseshit.

You have to learn to think in nuanced terms, not everything is black and white. For example, one does not have to believe person A is guilty and believe there are no innocent people convicted. Not all of this group is bad and not all in that group is good. For example, when you have confessions by two perpetrators, eye witnesses putting one at the scene, physical evidence, changing / lack of alibis, matching murder weapon found behind one perpetrator's home, blood consistent with one victim found on the necklace of a perpetrator, and perpetrators with violent pasts that fit the profile of a killer, that is a lot of coincidences. Unfortunately, too many people have been convicted rightly or wrongly on much less. But keep chasing those windmills.

[immortal13 4059]

There are a lot of dirty cops that try to frame innocent people. This is not a new or difficult concept. 

[Buddy Hinton 103]

10 hours ago, immortal13 said:

It wasn't perfectly executed, you obtuse fucker. There were mistakes galore...did you even watch the show? What is hilarious is you and Kyle taking the position that it couldn't possibly be an intentional frame-up, as if cops never try to frame suspects or that they had no motive to frame Avery and Dassey in this case. 

I hope a Nigerian Prince never emails you. Or ever makes a Netflix documentary

Of course it happens. Innocent people do get sent to jail far too often. Just not in this case

[immortal13 4059]

Ok, Buddy the cop

[Telegraph_it 3359]

It amazes me that people just rule out the cops framing Avery.

They did it once already... not a huge stretch to think they would do it again. 

[BigOrange1 6471]

14 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

You jump through a lot of hoops to fit your narrative and ignore anything that’s doesn’t match. 

“I don’t believe they did any stabbing inside the house” - Well the police presented that as fact in one of the trials. And Dassey said it in his confession which you totally believe. So you only believe parts of his confession that fit your narrative?

exactly.  dassey's confession is gold to him -- except the minor detail about the throat slashing which absolutely 100% did not happen.  let's just ignore that little piece of it.

[Kyle 207]

1 minute ago, Telegraph_it said:

It amazes me that people just rule out the cops framing Avery.

They did it once already... not a huge stretch to think they would do it again. 

I don't think framing means what you think it means. Unless you expanded the conspiracy to include Penny Beerntsen.

[Telegraph_it 3359]

2 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I don't think framing means what you think it means. Unless you expanded the conspiracy to include Penny Beerntsen.

Pray tell. 

[McFly 606]

Obvious trolls are obvious. 

[Goo Punch 4275]

i want to fight two of the people in this thread, and i would ask that everyone else stop replying to them because what the flying fuck.

[Player 4576]

Buddy Hinton is a dipshit sooner with an “education” that speaks for itself.