Making a Murderer: Part 2 (Netflix)

[blacklab 11941]

Quote

i want to fight two of the people in this thread, and i would ask that everyone else stop replying to them because what the flying fuck.

 

me and who else?

Edited December 23, 2018 by blacklab

[Kyle 207]

7 hours ago, Telegraph_it said:

Pray tell. 

Tell what?

[Kyle 207]

2 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

i want to fight two of the people in this thread, and i would ask that everyone else stop replying to them because what the flying fuck.

Poor little snowflake.

[Goo Punch 4275]

1 hour ago, Kyle said:

Poor little snowflake.

my feelings aren't hurt, i'm just tired of scrolling through the same inane arguing over and over. every time the two of you are presented with facts you completely ignore them. that's either trolling, or you're a less entertaining rocko. it's draining. 

[Kyle 207]

1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

my feelings aren't hurt, i'm just tired of scrolling through the same inane arguing over and over. every time the two of you are presented with facts you completely ignore them. that's either trolling, or you're a less entertaining rocko. it's draining. 

I think the fundamental disconnect you make is equating facts with opinions. The fundamental difference is the two of us don't get butthurt anytime someone has a different opinion.

[CurlyDumps 4476]

3 hours ago, blacklab said:

 

me and who else?

The horse you rode in on

[immortal13 4059]

Two of the people on this thread are cops, and most likely have been a part of a frame-up or at least turned a blind eye to a frame job.

[Kyle 207]

7 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Two of the people on this thread are cops, and most likely have been a part of a frame-up or at least turned a blind eye to a frame job.

Which two, and how were you able to figure that out?

[immortal13 4059]

20 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Which two, and how were you able to figure that out?

I interrogated the shit out of them until they confessed.

[Kyle 207]

23 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

I interrogated the shit out of them until they confessed.

So who is the other one?

[immortal13 4059]

33 minutes ago, Kyle said:

So who is the other one?

You'll have to watch the next documentary

[Kyle 207]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

You'll have to watch the next documentary

One of our posters is in the movie? Cool.

[RomaVicta 29953]

On 12/20/2018 at 6:51 PM, blacklab said:

when they put blood in the vial they add a chemical to stabilize the blood. The blood in the car did not have this chemical, so it wasn't from the vial.

it was probably from his sink

 

On 12/20/2018 at 8:46 PM, Buzzrock said:

 

Didn’t the expert for the defense say that the test was inconclusive?

 

My recollection is that an expert in the first documentary said that the test had not been run in years because it could only do two things: say that they couldn't find the anticoagulant in the sample or that there is anticoagulant in the sample.

In the first case, that does not mean the material is not present. The test does not always detect the anticoagulant when it has been added. Saying the test did not find the material is not conclusive evidence that it's not present.

Further, the pin hole in the tube containing Avery's blood from the earlier case was more than just merely irregular; it is pretty much never happens. There was another fact about the police visiting the sample or having opportunity to visit the sample which I do not remember clearly.

There was plenty of reason to suspect blood had been taken from that tube. I know the second season attorney has another theory. Even so, the pin hole in the tube from the earlier case could surely point to the possibility that the blood was accessed with possible intent to manipulate evidence in the murder of that nice, innocent woman who was the victim of the second case.

I hate the way that WI Justice Dept always refers to the victim's family as though a reversal of the conviction is somehow unfair or damaging to them. That plays no part in determining the fact of guilt or innocence. You don't leave the wrong guy in prison so that the victim's survivors can have illusory closure. My guess is that the family would be sick to learn that the death of their daughter/sister had been used in a further crime to take away somebody else's life. That's the way I'd feel, and I'm not particularly special.

Edited December 23, 2018 by RomaVicta

[Goo Punch 4275]

my sense is that nothing short of theresa halbach being resurrected and personally telling her family that avery and dassey are innocent will change their minds. they all seem to value their current sense of closure much, much more than finding out what the actual truth is. But i agree with you re: the absurdity of referencing the family over and over as if they have anything to do with this. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Goo Punch

[Buzzrock 14936]

Yeah that’s a great point. It was maddening when the Assistant AG did that in front of the en banc panel.

[Mac8111 2108]

For some reason I picture Dassey’s appeals attorney would be crazy in bed.






And then stalk the shit out of you.

[McFly 606]

Regarding the hole in the vial, that is how the blood gets in there.  I don't know why a big deal was made in the first series.  Apparently, they all knew this and it was misleading in the series.  Now that does not mean it wasn't tampered with, explain the scotch tape, etc.  I've been trying to find Zellner's comments on it that I've read before but she has pretty much said it is a non-issue. 

[immortal13 4059]

1 hour ago, McFly said:

Regarding the hole in the vial, that is how the blood gets in there.  I don't know why a big deal was made in the first series.  Apparently, they all knew this and it was misleading in the series.  Now that does not mean it wasn't tampered with, explain the scotch tape, etc.  I've been trying to find Zellner's comments on it that I've read before but she has pretty much said it is a non-issue. 

Right. I thought that was explained in season 2. 

[Kyle 207]

6 hours ago, McFly said:

Regarding the hole in the vial, that is how the blood gets in there.  I don't know why a big deal was made in the first series.  Apparently, they all knew this and it was misleading in the series.  Now that does not mean it wasn't tampered with, explain the scotch tape, etc.  I've been trying to find Zellner's comments on it that I've read before but she has pretty much said it is a non-issue. 

These TV shows make hay by making a big deal of of things that can be easily explained and misleading viewers via omission and commission. That naturally makes me suspicious - if all these cases were so obviously miscarriages of justice, there would be no need to obfuscate.

[McFly 606]

On 12/26/2018 at 10:00 PM, Kyle said:

these cases were so obviously miscarriages of justice,

this I agree with. 

[Kyle 207]

1 hour ago, McFly said:

this I agree with. 

Propaganda can do that to the best of us.

[Kyle 207]

On December 22, 2018 at 9:09 AM, CurlyDumps said:

I see that go-to talking point often.  I've seen it in the Adnan Syed discussions.

"It would have taken a maaaaassive conspiracy to pull that off!"  

"Either he's guilty, or he's the unluckiest guy in the world!"

There are thousands of innocent people sitting in prison who aren't the victims of massive conspiracies.  And it's not always about dirty corrupt cops trying to frame someone.  It can be one cop who gets tunnel vision.

FTR I haven't followed the Avery case closely enough to have an opinion either way, but the "massive conspiracy" argument is strawman horseshit.

If you do enjoy different POV, the Cold Case Muder Mysteries guy usually has an interesting take. He did some shows on all these cases without the normal Hollywood spin. He's different but offers a distinct perspective for good or bad.

[Chet Steadman 940]

Finished S2 yesterday and now I’m all ragey again.  I plan on listening to the rebuttal podcast because I fully realize Netflix has largely released a fairly one-sided story but...what the shite Manitowoc?

A few thoughts: 

• Watching SA’s parents, especially his father, is heartbreaking.  I’m afraid they won’t be around by the time their son’s conviction is overturned.  
• Zellner and her team are fantastic.  I’d imagine she’s largely working pro bono but this series has easily earned her millions, perhaps tens of millions, in PR.  
• The phone call between SA and Barb in the final episode was crazy intense.  
• Lastly, maybe the series addressed this in S1 and I can’t recall but has SA’s IQ ever been addressed?  He’s no doubt about as weird as they come but I can’t shake the feeling he’s much “smarter” than he leads on.  Maybe it’s because he’s surrounded by a generally low-IQ family but I think there’s something there, I just can’t put my finger on it.  

[Kyle 207]

I agree. He is clever. For example, he was smart enough to mask his calls to Halbech as well as make the post-murder alibi call, which IIRC was the only one where he did not hide his caller ID. When he called her to setup the initial appointments, he masked his caller ID or purported to be his sister. After he killed her, he called her again but ensured his caller ID / voicemail was obvious.

[Buddy Hinton 103]

10 hours ago, Chet Steadman said:

Finished S2 yesterday and now I’m all ragey again.  I plan on listening to the rebuttal podcast because I fully realize Netflix has largely released a fairly one-sided story but...what the shite Manitowoc?

A few thoughts: 

• Watching SA’s parents, especially his father, is heartbreaking.  I’m afraid they won’t be around by the time their son’s conviction is overturned.  
• Zellner and her team are fantastic.  I’d imagine she’s largely working pro bono but this series has easily earned her millions, perhaps tens of millions, in PR.  
• The phone call between SA and Barb in the final episode was crazy intense.  
• Lastly, maybe the series addressed this in S1 and I can’t recall but has SA’s IQ ever been addressed?  He’s no doubt about as weird as they come but I can’t shake the feeling he’s much “smarter” than he leads on.  Maybe it’s because he’s surrounded by a generally low-IQ family but I think there’s something there, I just can’t put my finger on it.  

Zellner: She has no case but like you said this is worth millions in PR. Smart lady whose has done a lot of good. But everybody gets all giddy over her twitter announcements that lead to nothing.

Steven Avery's IQ established is 70. He is not much smarter than Dassey

[Chet Steadman 940]

3 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

Zellner: She has no case but like you said this is worth millions in PR. Smart lady whose has done a lot of good. But everybody gets all giddy over her twitter announcements that lead to nothing.

Steven Avery's IQ established is 70. He is not much smarter than Dassey

I’m not sure that’s right.  I remember the docu staring Dassey was at least an 81.  

An IQ of 70 would be notably lower than Forest Gump.   

[hayden_horn 11364]

Look, they are all dumb. That's why the goddamn establishment targeted them. This is not a new or interesting detail. The system has always targeted dumb folks. 

[Neonmoon 38130]

7 hours ago, Chet Steadman said:

I’m not sure that’s right.  I remember the docu staring Dassey was at least an 81.  

An IQ of 70 would be notably lower than Forest Gump.   

the show reveals that Brendan Dassey has an IQ of 73 (and a verbal IQ of 69). 

We don’t know Avery’s IQ

 

[immortal13 4059]

2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

Look, they are all dumb. That's why the goddamn establishment targeted them. This is not a new or interesting detail. The system has always targeted dumb folks. 

Avery may be a bumpkin, but I don't think he is really all that dumb. He articulates himself rather well for someone with a jr high level (at best) education. He also managed to secure Zellner as counsel, and that may be what ends up getting him out of prison.

[Kyle 207]

4 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

Look, they are all dumb. That's why the goddamn establishment targeted them. This is not a new or interesting detail. The system has always targeted dumb folks. 

Dammit. I though it was because they are black. You can't believe anything your read on the politics board anymore. Shite.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Avery may be a bumpkin, but I don't think he is really all that dumb. He articulates himself rather well for someone with a jr high level (at best) education. He also managed to secure Zellner as counsel, and that may be what ends up getting him out of prison.

Let’s be real here - Avery secured Zellner because this whole saga is a huge deal on Twitter and the internet because of the Netflix show.

She jumped in because of the publicity. Ain’t got shit to do with Avery.

[immortal13 4059]

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

 

Let’s be real here - Avery secured Zellner because this whole saga is a huge deal on Twitter and the internet because of the Netflix show.

She jumped in because of the publicity. Ain’t got shit to do with Avery.

 

Ok whatever. The documentary shows that he and his family worked to convince her to take the case. Point still stands that he isn't as dumb as he might appear to some, at least not in my opinion.

[Buddy Hinton 103]

22 hours ago, Chet Steadman said:

I’m not sure that’s right.  I remember the docu staring Dassey was at least an 81.  

An IQ of 70 would be notably lower than Forest Gump.   

Its stated in various places that in his first trial, the court was told he had an IQ of 70. Now I obviously can't verify that, but that is what's out there on the question

Lifted from his Wiki page : He attended public schools in nearby Mishicot and Manitowoc, where his mother said he went to an elementary school "for slower kids".^[10] According to one of his lawyers in 1985, school records showed that his intelligence quotient was 70 and that he "barely functioned in school^.

 

I 

[mycox 582]

Steven Avery might not be book smart, be he has street smarts. He actually sounds pretty intelligent when talking with his lawyers about the case.

[Kyle 207]

33 minutes ago, mycox said:

Steven Avery might not be book smart, be he has street smarts. He actually sounds pretty intelligent when talking with his lawyers about the case.

He reminds me a lot of Jessie Misskelley, one of the three guys convicted of the Robin Hood Hills murders. Not going to get into Mensa but reasonably street smart and savvy. As I've posted, I think Avery is reasonably clever given how he tricked Halbech into coming over and then made the obvious alibi call. 

[McFly 606]

On 1/1/2019 at 11:32 AM, Kyle said:

Dammit. I though it was because they are black. You can't believe anything your read on the politics board anymore. Shite.

fucking trolls

[immortal13 4059]

5 hours ago, Kyle said:

He reminds me a lot of Jessie Misskelley, one of the three guys convicted of the Robin Hood Hills murders. Not going to get into Mensa but reasonably street smart and savvy. As I've posted, I think Avery is reasonably clever given how he tricked Halbech into coming over and then made the obvious alibi call. 

Ok Columbo

[Kyle 207]

You realize I agree with you on this point, right?

[52-80 19210]

What I like were the search terms on Bobby Dasseys internet history, including "horsecum" and "disesead girls"

[Kyle 207]

On 1/2/2019 at 4:54 PM, immortal13 said:

Ok Columbo

I do have to congratulate you - first time I've ever been negged by a poster for agreeing with him.

[immortal13 4059]

3 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I do have to congratulate you - first time I've ever been negged by a poster for agreeing with him.

No dipshit. The point of my post was mocking your claim that Avery was smart because he "tricked Theresa Halbach". There was never any agreement between my point and yours.

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by immortal13

[Kyle 207]

13 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

No dipshit. The point of my post was mocking your claim that Avery was smart because he "tricked Theresa Halbach". There was never any agreement between my point and yours.

So  you did not type this: "Ok whatever. The documentary shows that he and his family worked to convince her to take the case. Point still stands that he isn't as dumb as he might appear to some, at least not in my opinion"? I realize you're not using "dumb" correctly, but I tried not to nit-pick and assumed you meant he was not the village idiot. Did you have another point? I mean cool, but maybe you should work to communicate more clearly, one dipshit to another.

Since you're clearly the smartest guy in the room, how would you explain him using his sister's name to get Halbach to come by and take the picture, masking his caller ID repeatedly, and then placing the non-masked caller ID after the murder (as a means to establish an alibi, Columbo)?

[immortal13 4059]

It's ok, Kyle. Obviously, the point I was making is too complicated for you to comprehend. Let it go

[52-80 19210]

On 12/31/2018 at 6:34 PM, Chet Steadman said:

 

• The phone call between SA and Barb in the final episode was crazy intense. 

and for those who are heartless and callous, it's also one of the unintentionally funniest phone calls you'll ever heard.  i busted my gut laughing.

 

also crazy thing thing to think, if this murdered happened a decade later in 2015, with all the concerned people with smartphones and other smartdevices and all the surreptitious location tracking... they wouldve cracked this case in half a day

[52-80 19210]

12 hours ago, Kyle said:

 Point still stands that he isn't as dumb as he might appear to some, at least not in my opinion"?

Yeah, I think he's more clever than the show portrays

[hayden_horn 11364]

17 hours ago, 52-80 said:

What I like were the search terms on Bobby Dasseys internet history, including "horsecum" and "disesead girls"

yeah, that part turned my stomach, but also highlighted how dumb these folks really are.

if i recall correctly, one of the searches was "drawned girls" or something equally heinous, in both meaning and spelling. i do think that search history is not damning in and of itself, but it does introduce another character who was interested in seeing girls dead.

[Kyle 207]

I'm guessing he thought the suit and history would make the cops stay away from him ... I think he obviously overestimated his ability to cover up the crime. Putting the car and body on his property not the sharpest idea.

[CurlyDumps 4476]

Some day between now and next Monday is the big day!

 

[Quagmire 2147]

Lol she said that about 5 times now

[pepper brooks 580]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 3:15 PM, Bama Chick said:

 

Let’s be real here - Avery secured Zellner because this whole saga is a huge deal on Twitter and the internet because of the Netflix show.

She jumped in because of the publicity. Ain’t got shit to do with Avery.

 

Obviously the publicity does not hurt, but if it were just for the publicity she could get away with spending a whole lot less on experts, tests, etc.  She sure is putting a hell of a lot of effort and actual work into the case.  Sure the publicity is great for her.  She is now a household name, but she isn't coasting on this by any means.  She clearly is invested in getting this overturned, and appears to genuinely believe his conviction was absolutely wrong/unjust.