Making a Murderer: Part 2 (Netflix)

[CurlyDumps 4476]

MaM has become the JFK conspiracy of this generation. The timing of its release was serendipitous.  A number of factors come to mind - the true crime explosion. The skyrocketing popularity of Netflix's streaming service. TV binging. The rise of Reddit, internet sleuthing, and crowd-sourced investigating.  And of course the perfect backstory of Avery's wrongful conviction, which was a legit and egregious miscarriage of justice.  All these things dovetailed for Netflix and the filmmakers, and they suddenly had this massive hit on their hands.  If MaM had come out 10 years ago (like the fantastic documentary "The Staircase" for example) it wouldn't have near amount the attention it's received, nor the amount of people on board the innocence bandwagon.

MaM is not a true crime documentary.  It's an advocacy piece for Avery and Dassey, and should be viewed through that lens. Zellner does a great job advocating for her client in season 2.  I'd want her defending me if I killed someone. But the conclusions she draws from her tests and investigations are unsupported. Some are misleading and completely ignore facts.  For example:

The claim that the state found "too much" DNA on the hood latch swab for it to be touch DNA. Therefore it could not have come from Avery touching the hood latch.   This claim is outright false, and directly disproven by published forensic research.  The truth is that the amount of DNA found on the hood latch is a perfectly reasonable amount a forensic scientist would expect to find.  A lot of factors play into how much touch DNA someone leaves on an object.  The test she did in season 2 is completely worthless and proves nothing.

The bullet fragment findings. The expert she hired for this (Palenik) is legit and his findings are interesting. In court, she'd be able to make a strong argument that the bullet in question was not the bullet that killed Halbach. But at best, all it proves is that the bullet never passed through her skull.  It doesn't prove the bullet didn't pass through some other part of her body. It doesn't prove DNA was planted on the bullet. It doesn't dismantle the state's case, as Zellner claims. There's a fair amount of other evidence that's still a big problem for Avery.

There is also the caveat that Palenik himself, in his affidavit, stated that the tests he conducted could not conclusively rule out the presence of bone fragments on the bullet. And that he would like to run further tests to supplement his findings.

I recommend two podcasts - Season 2 of "Rebutting a Murder" and the "Double Loop" podcast.  Double Loop is a podcast hosted by two forensic scientists, and they give a fair assessment of the tests and experiments we see in season 2. They did 4 episodes. 

 "Rebutting a Murderer" is pretty over the top anti-MaM, but raises some good points. Watching MaM season 2 is akin to only hearing one side of a case.  "Rebutting a Murderer" presents the other side's case.

[NorthLoop 14215]

I was almost happy to see a new response on this thread till I saw it was from dum dum ........ "EXHIBIT ONE... Pancakes!!!"

[Goo Punch 4275]

if you're gonna try and convince me that Avery and Dassey are guilty, that's how you do it. Substance, references, logic and reasoning. Not by ignoring/dismissing the overwhelming amount of evidence which disproves 90% of what the MC LEO's and prosecutors alleged happened with nothing to back it up. I'm still nowhere near convinced that either of them did anything, and a huge reason for that is how completely detestable so many of the people from Manitowac County, WI are. 

[Kyle 207]

On 1/17/2019 at 3:25 PM, CurlyDumps said:

MaM has become the JFK conspiracy of this generation. The timing of its release was serendipitous.  A number of factors come to mind - the true crime explosion. The skyrocketing popularity of Netflix's streaming service. TV binging. The rise of Reddit, internet sleuthing, and crowd-sourced investigating.  And of course the perfect backstory of Avery's wrongful conviction, which was a legit and egregious miscarriage of justice.  All these things dovetailed for Netflix and the filmmakers, and they suddenly had this massive hit on their hands.  If MaM had come out 10 years ago (like the fantastic documentary "The Staircase" for example) it wouldn't have near amount the attention it's received, nor the amount of people on board the innocence bandwagon.

MaM is not a true crime documentary.  It's an advocacy piece for Avery and Dassey, and should be viewed through that lens. Zellner does a great job advocating for her client in season 2.  I'd want her defending me if I killed someone. But the conclusions she draws from her tests and investigations are unsupported. Some are misleading and completely ignore facts.  For example:

The claim that the state found "too much" DNA on the hood latch swab for it to be touch DNA. Therefore it could not have come from Avery touching the hood latch.   This claim is outright false, and directly disproven by published forensic research.  The truth is that the amount of DNA found on the hood latch is a perfectly reasonable amount a forensic scientist would expect to find.  A lot of factors play into how much touch DNA someone leaves on an object.  The test she did in season 2 is completely worthless and proves nothing.

The bullet fragment findings. The expert she hired for this (Palenik) is legit and his findings are interesting. In court, she'd be able to make a strong argument that the bullet in question was not the bullet that killed Halbach. But at best, all it proves is that the bullet never passed through her skull.  It doesn't prove the bullet didn't pass through some other part of her body. It doesn't prove DNA was planted on the bullet. It doesn't dismantle the state's case, as Zellner claims. There's a fair amount of other evidence that's still a big problem for Avery.

There is also the caveat that Palenik himself, in his affidavit, stated that the tests he conducted could not conclusively rule out the presence of bone fragments on the bullet. And that he would like to run further tests to supplement his findings.

I recommend two podcasts - Season 2 of "Rebutting a Murder" and the "Double Loop" podcast.  Double Loop is a podcast hosted by two forensic scientists, and they give a fair assessment of the tests and experiments we see in season 2. They did 4 episodes. 

 "Rebutting a Murderer" is pretty over the top anti-MaM, but raises some good points. Watching MaM season 2 is akin to only hearing one side of a case.  "Rebutting a Murderer" presents the other side's case.

I have not watched season two, but the first season similarly was akin to only hearing one side of the case. I don't blame Zellner - her job is to throw out 1,000 random assertions and hope that enough stick to cast enough doubt with the jury of public opinion, which she hopes will influence the courts. She's knows how to manipulate the Twitter generation and a jury. What does seem clear across many true crime cases is one can hire an expert to say just about anything. Obviously not a scientist, but continues to make me scratch my head that two experts can come to opposite conclusions on forensic evidence.

[NorthLoop 14215]

16 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I have not watched season two,

Ok. Cool. This is the season two thread. Come back when you've watched it. 

[blacklab 11941]

Yes, the prosecution would never do such a thing.

Oh, wait Ken Kratz had a press conference that tainted the jury pool before the trial

[Kyle 207]

1 hour ago, NorthLoop said:

Ok. Cool. This is the season two thread. Come back when you've watched it. 

That seriously is the most clever thing you could come up with? I mean it is one thing to act like a cocksucker on an anonymous web site, but at least bring a little intellectual weight to the conversation.

[NorthLoop 14215]

1 minute ago, Kyle said:

That seriously is the most clever thing you could come up with? I mean it is one thing to act like a cocksucker on an anonymous web site, but at least bring a little intellectual weight to the conversation.

I wasn't trying to be clever. This is a discussion of season 2 of Making a Murderer. You haven't watched it yet you feel compelled to participate in the discussion and argue with people. 

[BBQ2Bayou 807]

I might just be stoned but that little exchange has me laughing my ass off.  Carry on. 

[pepper brooks 580]

You’re only hearing one side because everyone on the prosecution side has declined to participate from day 1. They have asked them to participate. They haven’t done so.  

[Neonmoon 38129]

3 minutes ago, pepper brooks said:

You’re only hearing one side because everyone on the prosecution side has declined to participate from day 1. They have asked them to participate. They haven’t done so.  

It would be unethical to talk to the media about a case outside the court room. 

Just kidding, Kratz did that before the trial 

[NorthLoop 14215]

I also get the feeling that Zellner is building herself a big fat civil lawsuit case to bring against Kratz and others that she obviously couldn't talk about in the doc. I'd pay good money to see her grill that little bitch on the stand. 

[Goo Punch 4275]

I also get the feeling that Zellner is building herself a big fat civil lawsuit case to bring against Kratz and others that she obviously couldn't talk about in the doc. I'd pay good money to see her grill that little bitch on the stand. 

Kratz on the stand:




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kyle 207]

On 1/17/2019 at 3:25 PM, CurlyDumps said:

MaM has become the JFK conspiracy of this generation. The timing of its release was serendipitous.  A number of factors come to mind - the true crime explosion. The skyrocketing popularity of Netflix's streaming service. TV binging. The rise of Reddit, internet sleuthing, and crowd-sourced investigating.  And of course the perfect backstory of Avery's wrongful conviction, which was a legit and egregious miscarriage of justice.  All these things dovetailed for Netflix and the filmmakers, and they suddenly had this massive hit on their hands.  If MaM had come out 10 years ago (like the fantastic documentary "The Staircase" for example) it wouldn't have near amount the attention it's received, nor the amount of people on board the innocence bandwagon.

MaM is not a true crime documentary.  It's an advocacy piece for Avery and Dassey, and should be viewed through that lens. Zellner does a great job advocating for her client in season 2.  I'd want her defending me if I killed someone. But the conclusions she draws from her tests and investigations are unsupported. Some are misleading and completely ignore facts.  For example:

The claim that the state found "too much" DNA on the hood latch swab for it to be touch DNA. Therefore it could not have come from Avery touching the hood latch.   This claim is outright false, and directly disproven by published forensic research.  The truth is that the amount of DNA found on the hood latch is a perfectly reasonable amount a forensic scientist would expect to find.  A lot of factors play into how much touch DNA someone leaves on an object.  The test she did in season 2 is completely worthless and proves nothing.

The bullet fragment findings. The expert she hired for this (Palenik) is legit and his findings are interesting. In court, she'd be able to make a strong argument that the bullet in question was not the bullet that killed Halbach. But at best, all it proves is that the bullet never passed through her skull.  It doesn't prove the bullet didn't pass through some other part of her body. It doesn't prove DNA was planted on the bullet. It doesn't dismantle the state's case, as Zellner claims. There's a fair amount of other evidence that's still a big problem for Avery.

There is also the caveat that Palenik himself, in his affidavit, stated that the tests he conducted could not conclusively rule out the presence of bone fragments on the bullet. And that he would like to run further tests to supplement his findings.

I recommend two podcasts - Season 2 of "Rebutting a Murder" and the "Double Loop" podcast.  Double Loop is a podcast hosted by two forensic scientists, and they give a fair assessment of the tests and experiments we see in season 2. They did 4 episodes. 

 "Rebutting a Murderer" is pretty over the top anti-MaM, but raises some good points. Watching MaM season 2 is akin to only hearing one side of a case.  "Rebutting a Murderer" presents the other side's case.

Thanks for the recommendation. I really enjoyed the Double Loop episodes on the case. Their insight was excellent, and I really LOL about the one gentleman's story about engaging Reddit and getting banned from the innocence group. They seem very even handed and let the evidence speak, so not really surprised the passionate innocence folks could not handle it.

[deech 2291]

New filing today by Zellner:

The State took bones found in the burn sites in the gravel pit and gave them to the Halbachs to bury.  Not Avery's burn pit in his backyard.  At trial, Kratz argued that the most that could be said about the bones in the gravel pit are that they could possibly be human.  Possibly human and then returned to the family after the trial.

[NorthLoop 14215]

So I think a lot of us were suspicious of Bobby and Tadych after season 1 came out, even though it didn't implicate them in any way. Now that we've seen the kiddy porn and murder porn that Bobby had on his computer, his contradictory statements concerning Halbach leaving/not leaving, and his absolute perfect timing of leaving his place right at the exact same time she would be leaving so he could "go hunting" behind his dad's trailer, the hiding of his computer porn evidence by the prosecution and investigators, etc..... pretty clear he did it right?

[Goo Punch 4275]

that's that's the way i'm leaning. 

[Al_4_ISU 12464]

7 hours ago, NorthLoop said:

So I think a lot of us were suspicious of Bobby and Tadych after season 1 came out, even though it didn't implicate them in any way. Now that we've seen the kiddy porn and murder porn that Bobby had on his computer, his contradictory statements concerning Halbach leaving/not leaving, and his absolute perfect timing of leaving his place right at the exact same time she would be leaving so he could "go hunting" behind his dad's trailer, the hiding of his computer porn evidence by the prosecution and investigators, etc..... pretty clear he did it right?

That's the way I'm leaning.

The way Tadych responds to Avery in that phone conversation at the end of Season 2 did not give the vibe of an innocent man.  That sounded like a guy who was fucking terrified lashing out.

[deech 2291]

14 hours ago, NorthLoop said:

So I think a lot of us were suspicious of Bobby and Tadych after season 1 came out, even though it didn't implicate them in any way. Now that we've seen the kiddy porn and murder porn that Bobby had on his computer, his contradictory statements concerning Halbach leaving/not leaving, and his absolute perfect timing of leaving his place right at the exact same time she would be leaving so he could "go hunting" behind his dad's trailer, the hiding of his computer porn evidence by the prosecution and investigators, etc..... pretty clear he did it right?

It really doesn't matter to me.  When the star prosecution witness though has that computer filled with those searches, the defense team is entitled to the State's expert's report about what was on the hard drive or at least the same amount of time as the State's expert needed to analyze the hard drive if they hired their own expert.

[NorthLoop 14215]

Yeah that and the whole part where Kratz lies and says it's Brendan's computer. 

[Buzzrock 14922]

Zellner is tenacious. It’s got to be tough keeping up that level of urgency day in and day out.

[Telegraph_it 3357]

 

[Kyle 207]

1 hour ago, Telegraph_it said:

 

Damn. Now you convinced me. Tell me about how we didn't land on the moon.

[Telegraph_it 3357]

2 hours ago, Kyle said:

Damn. Now you convinced me. Tell me about how we didn't land on the moon.

Well we reflect a laser off a mirror on the moon. That means we know where the mirror is unlike the bone evidence. 

[Deej 76830]

Maybe if the DA could come up with one, consistent story...

[Goo Punch 4275]

3 hours ago, Kyle said:

Damn. Now you convinced me. Tell me about how we didn't land on the moon.

You have too much invested in being right here. It's pretty strange. The rest of us just want to know what actually happened, and based on the 100% complete farce that is the prosecution's case (or really cases, multiple, since the crime apparently happened in multiple ways), we all have a very healthy and well founded skepticism of the story we've been told.You on the other hand have taken a Derka/Rick Barnes approach to this case, where no matter what happens you are *obsessed* with being right that SA is guilty. It's like you're from the Manitowac County DA's office or something. So strange. 

[immortal13 4059]

Shut the fuck up about Rick Barnes already. Goddamn!

[riloh05 107]

Steven wins appeal.

https://www.newsweek.com/making-murderer-steven-avery-wins-appeal-second-trial-1343442

[Neonmoon 38129]

[Telegraph_it 3357]

Season 3 lets gooooooooooo!

[Goo Punch 4275]

Kyle will not be pleased. 

[Goo Punch 4275]

On 2/18/2019 at 6:59 PM, immortal13 said:

Shut the fuck up about Rick Barnes already. Goddamn!

jesus christ, you get over your obsession with me first. 

[pepper brooks 580]

will be interesting to see what happens.  Whatever comes of this I hope at some point everyone can be satisfied the truth was found, justice is/was served and everyone can find some peace.  I would at least like to see a new trial, and have the prosecution actually have to prove the murder this time using a story that can be actually backed up in some form.  If avery did it, I hope he fries.  if he didn't, I hope he's set free and finds peace (this is doubtful as he seems to be a lowlife, sociopathic POS), and justice is served on whomever murdered Teresa Halbach.  

[riloh05 107]

On 1/17/2019 at 3:25 PM, CurlyDumps said:

MaM has become the JFK conspiracy of this generation. The timing of its release was serendipitous.  A number of factors come to mind - the true crime explosion. The skyrocketing popularity of Netflix's streaming service. TV binging. The rise of Reddit, internet sleuthing, and crowd-sourced investigating.  And of course the perfect backstory of Avery's wrongful conviction, which was a legit and egregious miscarriage of justice.  All these things dovetailed for Netflix and the filmmakers, and they suddenly had this massive hit on their hands.  If MaM had come out 10 years ago (like the fantastic documentary "The Staircase" for example) it wouldn't have near amount the attention it's received, nor the amount of people on board the innocence bandwagon.

MaM is not a true crime documentary.  It's an advocacy piece for Avery and Dassey, and should be viewed through that lens. Zellner does a great job advocating for her client in season 2.  I'd want her defending me if I killed someone. But the conclusions she draws from her tests and investigations are unsupported. Some are misleading and completely ignore facts.  For example:

The claim that the state found "too much" DNA on the hood latch swab for it to be touch DNA. Therefore it could not have come from Avery touching the hood latch.   This claim is outright false, and directly disproven by published forensic research.  The truth is that the amount of DNA found on the hood latch is a perfectly reasonable amount a forensic scientist would expect to find.  A lot of factors play into how much touch DNA someone leaves on an object.  The test she did in season 2 is completely worthless and proves nothing.

The bullet fragment findings. The expert she hired for this (Palenik) is legit and his findings are interesting. In court, she'd be able to make a strong argument that the bullet in question was not the bullet that killed Halbach. But at best, all it proves is that the bullet never passed through her skull.  It doesn't prove the bullet didn't pass through some other part of her body. It doesn't prove DNA was planted on the bullet. It doesn't dismantle the state's case, as Zellner claims. There's a fair amount of other evidence that's still a big problem for Avery.

There is also the caveat that Palenik himself, in his affidavit, stated that the tests he conducted could not conclusively rule out the presence of bone fragments on the bullet. And that he would like to run further tests to supplement his findings.

I recommend two podcasts - Season 2 of "Rebutting a Murder" and the "Double Loop" podcast.  Double Loop is a podcast hosted by two forensic scientists, and they give a fair assessment of the tests and experiments we see in season 2. They did 4 episodes. 

 "Rebutting a Murderer" is pretty over the top anti-MaM, but raises some good points. Watching MaM season 2 is akin to only hearing one side of a case.  "Rebutting a Murderer" presents the other side's case.

i recommend you visit 5 Houston Cops Shot thread

[CurlyDumps 4476]

21 hours ago, riloh05 said:

i recommend you visit 5 Houston Cops Shot thread

Ok - that story seems crazy interesting. But  what does a 2019 scandal in the HPD Vice Dept have to do with a Wisconsin murder investigation from 2005?

I'm interested in the truth of what happened, so I do my best to take a case-by-case approach and not let personal biases get in the way.  I'd recommend you do the same.

I mean for starters, there's the indisputable fact that Teresa Halbach was murdered on or around the Avery property. 

[riloh05 107]

9 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

Ok - that story seems crazy interesting. But  what does a 2019 scandal in the HPD Vice Dept have to do with a Wisconsin murder investigation from 2005?

I'm interested in the truth of what happened, so I do my best to take a case-by-case approach and not let personal biases get in the way.  I'd recommend you do the same.

I mean for starters, there's the indisputable fact that Teresa Halbach was murdered on or around the Avery property. 

Actually there is disputable fact that she wasn’t. That thread should teach not to believe what the cops say. And these fucktards in Wisconsin have a track record of suckage. 

[Player 4575]

Effective right meow, this goofy fuckface is no longer sitting on the bench in Wisconsin municipal court. 

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/brendan-dasseys-meowing-former-lawyer-is-suspended-from-the-bench?utm_source=salesforce_88080&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly_email&utm_medium=email&utm_source=salesforce_88080&sc_sid=00606924&utm_campaign=&promo=&utm_content=&additional4=&additional5=&sfmc_j=88080&sfmc_s=45941525&sfmc_l=1527&sfmc_jb=265&sfmc_mid=100027443&sfmc_u=3617814

Amazingly enough, he unfortunately still has a license to practice. Meanwhile, Dassey rots away in a cell, still wondering who won Wrestlemania. 

[Goo Punch 4275]

Zellner's big announcement:

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

Worked out for OJ 

[bschoolprof 6263]

Lulz. 

[hayden_horn 11362]

seriously?

[CurlyDumps 4476]

[immortal13 4059]

I haz disappoint 

[BNB 100]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/making-a-murderer-wisconsin-inmate-confession

[BigDHornfan 6549]

wow.  the shitstorm that is about to hit if true...get your popcorn ready.

[hayden_horn 11362]

well, even zellner is kind of pooh-poohing this confession.

Quote

Avery’s attorney, Kathleen Zellner, told Heavy that her firm also received a handwritten confession from an unnamed inmate who admitted to killing Halbach. Zellner said her firm announced earlier this month that a citizen was offering $100,000 for information related to Halbach’s “real killer.”

She explained that when the firm failed to respond to the inmate about the monetary reward, he then approached the production company with his story. Zellner said on Twitter that the handwritten note is “worthless unless it is corroborated.”

“He mailed the handwritten confession to us before he contacted the production company. The confession occurred solely because of our 100K reward offer and had nothing to do with the production company. When we did not immediately respond to this person, he called the production company,” Zellner told Heavy.

Former DA Ken Kratz, who handled prosecution in the case, wrote on Twitter: “To be clear, like everyone else, this is news to me. I have NO COMMENT until I see the details. #MakingAMurderer.”

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by hayden_horn

[aggie08 21505]

Yeah, between the national notoriety and the reward, there's about a 99% chance that this is bullshit.  IF Avery didn't kill Teresa, then someone living on that property did.  No other alternatives make even the slightest bit of sense.

[Alvin89 108]

Zellner not acting on this makes me believe it’s probably just garbage. If one wants to believe a prisoner just off his word  they would also have to believe Avery’s cellmate who said Avery talked about building a rape/torture chamber. 

[pepper brooks 580]

2 hours ago, Alvin89 said:

Zellner not acting on this makes me believe it’s probably just garbage. If one wants to believe a prisoner just off his word  they would also have to believe Avery’s cellmate who said Avery talked about building a rape/torture chamber. 

if avery talked about building a rape/torture chamber there would need to be some evidence that such a place exists or it's simply jailhouse propaganda.  There is no such evidence of which we are aware.  that isn't to say he didn't have one, and I am not saying he didn't say he had one.  maybe he did. to date, we do not know of any such corroborating evidence of it.  Like I have said countless times, I believe 100% SA is a psychopath 100% capable of committing a violent crime and murdering someone.  Based on the poor defense and proven corrupt police, and lack of consistency in the prosecutions attempt to prove the murder (they told two different stories of the murder one of which is 100% proven false) I cannot say that avery was proven to have murdered Theresa halbach.  I firmly believe he at a minimum deserves a new trial as does Dassey.  

[immortal13 4059]

1 hour ago, pepper brooks said:

if avery talked about building a rape/torture chamber there would need to be some evidence that such a place exists or it's simply jailhouse propaganda.  There is no such evidence of which we are aware.  that isn't to say he didn't have one, and I am not saying he didn't say he had one.  maybe he did. to date, we do not know of any such corroborating evidence of it.  Like I have said countless times, I believe 100% SA is a psychopath 100% capable of committing a violent crime and murdering someone.  Based on the poor defense and proven corrupt police, and lack of consistency in the prosecutions attempt to prove the murder (they told two different stories of the murder one of which is 100% proven false) I cannot say that avery was proven to have murdered Theresa halbach.  I firmly believe he at a minimum deserves a new trial as does Dassey.  

And he doesn't wear underwear...total psycho