Making a Murderer: Part 2 (Netflix)

[deech 2,291]

On 1/8/2019 at 8:03 AM, CurlyDumps said:

Some day between now and next Monday is the big day!

 

[Fozzz 152]

imo, the dude did it. 

[Butch Had Not 2,982]

7 hours ago, Fozzz said:

imo, the dude did it. 

I don't know what to believe.  I just can't wrap my head around motivation outside of just being a psychopath. 

Is there a rebuttal documentary or article somewhere to reference to see the other side?

[pepper brooks 580]

9 hours ago, Butch Had Not said:

I don't know what to believe.  I just can't wrap my head around motivation outside of just being a psychopath. 

Is there a rebuttal documentary or article somewhere to reference to see the other side?

I have very little doubt the guy is a psychopath, and I 100% believe the guy is capable of murdering a woman and he may have murdered Theresa halbach.  I also 100% know that the story presented and evidence presented in court that convicted him is 100% false.  There is literally zero chance the murder happened in the manner in which it was sold to the jury.  That conviction is absolutely wrongful.  That is not to say he didn't kill her.  Just saying, it didn't happen the way they claim because there is no evidence of it happening that way.  None.  

[JOSEYWALES66 1,805]

15 hours ago, Butch Had Not said:

I don't know what to believe.  I just can't wrap my head around motivation outside of just being a psychopath. 

Is there a rebuttal documentary or article somewhere to reference to see the other side?

Reddit has some good stuff

 

 

[Fozzz 152]

Guilty as fuck (per Reddit).

[CurlyDumps 4,476]

18 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Guilty as fuck (per Reddit).

The Making a Murderer Reddit experience is highly entertaining. Apparently the original MaM subreddit became so volatile, that "guilter" and "truther" sub-subreddits had to be made.  One of my favorite things about them is that the truther subreddit is called "tick tock manitowoc" and the guilter subreddit has a link to a "tick tock cell block clock" which tracks the time Avery has been "right where he belongs" down to the second.  
  

[Neonmoon 38,129]

Reddit is the worst structured forum in the history of the internet. It makes my eyes bleed 

[immortal13 4,059]

5 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Reddit is the worst structured forum in the history of the internet. It makes my eyes bleed 

This. I can't read that shit for this reason

[Kyle 207]

2 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

The Making a Murderer Reddit experience is highly entertaining. Apparently the original MaM subreddit became so volatile, that "guilter" and "truther" sub-subreddits had to be made.  One of my favorite things about them is that the truther subreddit is called "tick tock manitowoc" and the guilter subreddit has a link to a "tick tock cell block clock" which tracks the time Avery has been "right where he belongs" down to the second.  

I'm convinced there are not many groups of crazies more insane than passionate true crime followers. It is basically like arguing politics with different issues right down to the hyperbole, bogeymen, name calling, and overall tribal insanity. 
... and Reddit sucks.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Kyle

[Buzzrock 14,922]

I’m not a big Reddit user but I think there are various apps that make it more usable.

[Deej 76,830]

1 hour ago, Kyle said:

I'm convinced there are not many groups of crazies more insane than passionate true crime followers. 

Let me show you to the politics board.

[CurlyDumps 4,476]

On 10/31/2018 at 4:22 AM, EE2B said:

Has anyone else listened to the podcast “Rebutting a Murderer”? It’s done by a reporter that covered the trial for a local newspaper. He can actually be seen in a some of the shots of press conferences in the series. He does a good job of bringing to light the things that Netflix glosses over or doesn’t even present in the series. It made me reconsider how I looked at the case.

I've started listening to this.  I have mixed feelings about it. But S1 E9 piqued my interest. Starting around 7:30, it highlights some details Dassey gave in his confession, seemingly on his own, without being fed said info by the cops.

1. Avery took the Jeep down to the "pit."  Then Dassey says, "and that's when we covered it with branches in the hood." / describes exactly how the car was found.

2. Loaded TH's body in the back of the jeep / TH's blood was found in the back of the jeep.

3. Says  her camera, cell phone, purse were burned / camera, cell phone, PDA were found with TH's remains.

4. Threw tires on the bonfire / steel belts from tires found intertwined in TH's remains

I went back and watched some of the confession.  Regarding #3, the cops mention a purse, camera, and cell phone before Dassey does. So, #3 is arguably a coerced/contaminated piece of the confession. 

But the other three details, as far as I can tell, came from Brendan voluntarily. These are details that can be corroborated by physical evidence. Which makes me wonder. Unless this info was fed to Brendan earlier, or he got it from somewhere else, is it possible some of his confession is truthful? Was he possibly involved in moving the body and helping clean up?

[NorthLoop 14,215]

5 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

I've started listening to this.  I have mixed feelings about it. But S1 E9 piqued my interest. Starting around 7:30, it highlights some details Dassey gave in his confession, seemingly on his own, without being fed said info by the cops.

1. Avery took the Jeep down to the "pit."  Then Dassey says, "and that's when we covered it with branches in the hood." / describes exactly how the car was found.

2. Loaded TH's body in the back of the jeep / TH's blood was found in the back of the jeep.

3. Says  her camera, cell phone, purse were burned / camera, cell phone, PDA were found with TH's remains.

4. Threw tires on the bonfire / steel belts from tires found intertwined in TH's remains

I went back and watched some of the confession.  Regarding #3, the cops mention a purse, camera, and cell phone before Dassey does. So, #3 is arguably a coerced/contaminated piece of the confession. 

But the other three details, as far as I can tell, came from Brendan voluntarily. These are details that can be corroborated by physical evidence. Which makes me wonder. Unless this info was fed to Brendan earlier, or he got it from somewhere else, is it possible some of his confession is truthful? Was he possibly involved in moving the body and helping clean up?

How many of these "details" were obtained AFTER the confession

[Neonmoon 38,129]

12 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

I've started listening to this.  I have mixed feelings about it. But S1 E9 piqued my interest. Starting around 7:30, it highlights some details Dassey gave in his confession, seemingly on his own, without being fed said info by the cops.

1. Avery took the Jeep down to the "pit."  Then Dassey says, "and that's when we covered it with branches in the hood." / describes exactly how the car was found.

2. Loaded TH's body in the back of the jeep / TH's blood was found in the back of the jeep.

3. Says  her camera, cell phone, purse were burned / camera, cell phone, PDA were found with TH's remains.

4. Threw tires on the bonfire / steel belts from tires found intertwined in TH's remains

I went back and watched some of the confession.  Regarding #3, the cops mention a purse, camera, and cell phone before Dassey does. So, #3 is arguably a coerced/contaminated piece of the confession. 

But the other three details, as far as I can tell, came from Brendan voluntarily. These are details that can be corroborated by physical evidence. Which makes me wonder. Unless this info was fed to Brendan earlier, or he got it from somewhere else, is it possible some of his confession is truthful? Was he possibly involved in moving the body and helping clean up?

I'm not saying you are wrong or right. But you migth want to read the transcipts of all the interviews betwen the police and Dassey before assuming any details stated by Dassey were not fed by the Cops. 

 

[Fozzz 152]

The amount of ire directed towards "truthers" in that MaM reddit sub is hysterical.  

[JOSEYWALES66 1,805]

1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

The amount of ire directed towards "truthers" in that MaM reddit sub is hysterical.  

If you read the Reddit pages that think he is innocent, you will notice the same amount of hostility toward the people who think he is guilty. 

This topic is very similar to politics. 

[Butch Had Not 2,982]

My God the volume on reddit for this topic is like a Saturday here after playing Maryland. 

[hayden_horn 11,362]

13 hours ago, NorthLoop said:

How many of these "details" were obtained AFTER the confession

exactly. 

so much of the evidence that are lynchpins in the case just so happen to have been found in a certain manner. the blood in the car. you've got to be kidding me. if they slit her throat and shot her and loaded her body in the back? and there's just some blood smeared on the side?

i've told the story before, but i testified in a murder trial where me and some friends found the shot bodies of two girls behind the grand theater in dallas. one of the girls we found was slumped out of the car. she had been shot in the head. the amount of blood was...not trivial, lets say. certainly not just a bit here and there. it was a goddamn pool of blood on the pavement. 

the evidence in this trial is horseshit, and any of yall that cannot see that, i just don't understand. 

[Butch Had Not 2,982]

That's another thing said above that gets me.  If it was such a violent murder why don't a massive amount of blood,  DNA, or anything that reeks of death. They couldn't clean the garage that well and still make it look like a mess when police searched it. 

 

[CurlyDumps 4,476]

 

8 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I'm not saying you are wrong or right. But you migth want to read the transcipts of all the interviews betwen the police and Dassey before assuming any details stated by Dassey were not fed by the Cops. 

 

From what I have read (perusing Dassey's interview transcripts), this is what I found:

2/27/06 police interview at school (before the confession) 

-Pg. 442 - Brendan mentions "some branches, a cabinet, and some tires" when asked what he put in the fire, and what he saw in the fire.  No prior mention of tires by the cops.

-Pg 459 - Brendan says Steven told him that he tried to cover up the car with branches. No prior mention of this detail from cops.

One notable detail is  on pg. 441 - at the very beginning, before the interview gets going, Fassbender says "by your own words..." referring to a vehicle seat Brendan collected and put in the fire.  This indicates there was  police contact with Brendan between the two documented interviews (11/6/05 and 2/27/06). The bonfire was not discussed in the 11/6 interview, so it must have been brought up after that.

It's also notable that Brendan never mentions the bonfire during his first police interview on 11/6/05. Was he being deceptive, or just dumb?

So, I wonder if the story Brendan originally told was true - he went home, played video games, ate dinner, etc. and then went over to Steve's around 8 or 9 to help tend to the  bonfire.  He witnesses the body being burned, and that is the extent of his involvement.  Avery tells him about how he hid the jeep.  

 

16 hours ago, NorthLoop said:

How many of these "details" were obtained AFTER the confession

These details are from the 2/26 interview, before the confession.

Edited January 11, 2019 by CurlyDumps

[CurlyDumps 4,476]

3 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

exactly. 

so much of the evidence that are lynchpins in the case just so happen to have been found in a certain manner. the blood in the car. you've got to be kidding me. if they slit her throat and shot her and loaded her body in the back? and there's just some blood smeared on the side?

1 hour ago, Butch Had Not said:

That's another thing said above that gets me.  If it was such a violent murder why don't a massive amount of blood,  DNA, or anything that reeks of death. They couldn't clean the garage that well and still make it look like a mess when police searched it. 

 

What if Teresa's cause of death was strangulation?  One thought that crossed my mind - If she was shot in the garage after she was already deceased, I imagine there would be a significantly smaller amount of blood, and little to no spatter.  I've never shot a dead body nor studied how dead bodies bleed, so I don't really know how it works.  Just speculating.

There's no physical evidence corroborating a stabbing or throat slitting, but there is strong evidence corroborating that she was shot.  What if she was strangled to death, then shot in the garage, then moved to the jeep? 

[hayden_horn 11,362]

59 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

What if Teresa's cause of death was strangulation?  One thought that crossed my mind - If she was shot in the garage after she was already deceased, I imagine there would be a significantly smaller amount of blood, and little to no spatter.  I've never shot a dead body nor studied how dead bodies bleed, so I don't really know how it works.  Just speculating.

There's no physical evidence corroborating a stabbing or throat slitting, but there is strong evidence corroborating that she was shot.  What if she was strangled to death, then shot in the garage, then moved to the jeep? 

then that would invalidate huge swaths of the dassey "confession"

[Alvin89 108]

I’m not going to pretend to remember everything from both seasons but didn’t  Dasseys sister say that he he was acting depressed and losing weight rapidly and confessed to her that he was involved somehow before they questioned him? 

[immortal13 4,059]

There should be massive blood evidence in either the bedroom, garage or the Rav4. There just simply isn't, and don't try to tell me they cleaned it all up. Do any of these people seem like they are good at cleaning anything? 

The sad truth is that we will never know what really happened to Theresa Halbach thanks to the corruption of evidence and the crime scene by the police investigators, not to mention the fact that it was criminal on their part to do so. The state doesn't deserve a conviction in this case even if Avery did do it.

[Butch Had Not 2,982]

1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

There should be massive blood evidence in either the bedroom, garage or the Rav4. There just simply isn't, and don't try to tell me they cleaned it all up. Do any of these people seem like they are good at cleaning anything? 

The sad truth is that we will never know what really happened to Theresa Halbach thanks to the corruption of evidence and the crime scene by the police investigators, not to mention the fact that it was criminal on their part to do so. The state doesn't deserve a conviction in this case even if Avery did do it.

I highly doubt avery is dexter Morgan efficient. 

[Kyle 207]

On January 9, 2019 at 11:42 PM, Butch Had Not said:

I don't know what to believe.  I just can't wrap my head around motivation outside of just being a psychopath. 

Is there a rebuttal documentary or article somewhere to reference to see the other side?

Here are a few articles that try to present a more balanced approach. If you put MaM in full societal, cultural, and political, context, the agenda becomes a little more obvious. It is a pawn in a larger chess game.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/25/dead-certainty

https://slate.com/culture/2016/01/making-a-murderer-is-so-emotionally-manipulative-it-left-me-angry.html

https://www.dailywire.com/news/2363/dont-believe-press-steven-avery-guilty-murder-michael-qazvini

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/making-a-murder-steven-avery-evidence-guilty-2016-1#/#the-cat-killing-incident-was-more-gruesome-than-filmmakers-made-it-seem-1

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2015/04/serial-podcast-rehabilitated-a-schoolgirls-murderer-yet-remains-strangely-teflon.html

 

They've obviously done a great job. You have chuckleheads actually arguing against themselves on this thread because their so passionate and loony about this.

[McFly 606]

These articles seem more focused on MaM being one-sided, not that he is actually guilty or anything to do with motivation. 

Innocent or guilty, justice was not served.

[Kyle 207]

There are a ton of articles out there. I do not have a dog in the hunt. I just want people not to get suckered completely by propaganda and make up their own minds. I think the point of the articles is that the only reason anyone thinks he is innocent is because of the movie, and the movie clearly fabricates a story by omission. If you want more specifics, a couple more:

 https://www.businessinsider.com/making-a-murder-steven-avery-evidence-guilty-2016-1#avery-admitted-to-buying-handcuffs-and-leg-irons-11

https://news.avclub.com/read-this-the-damning-evidence-against-steven-avery-th-1798242739

Personally, I think it is pretty obvious he committed the crime. There is way too much evidence against him. Otherwise you have to go full CRC and completely contradict: these are moron, hillbilly cops that pulled of a CIA/JFK-level conspiracy. As noted previously, zero motive for a double-secret conspiracy to frame the guy.

[Kyle 207]

In other news ... if you want to read about a nearby case that was a serious case of prosecutorial misconduct and overall b.s. shenanigans, checkout the case of Jerry Tobias. It is frighteningly insane.

[immortal13 4,059]

11 minutes ago, Kyle said:

There are a ton of articles out there. I do not have a dog in the hunt. I just want people not to get suckered completely by propaganda and make up their own minds. I think the point of the articles is that the only reason anyone thinks he is innocent is because of the movie, and the movie clearly fabricates a story by omission. If you want more specifics, a couple more:

 https://www.businessinsider.com/making-a-murder-steven-avery-evidence-guilty-2016-1#avery-admitted-to-buying-handcuffs-and-leg-irons-11

https://news.avclub.com/read-this-the-damning-evidence-against-steven-avery-th-1798242739

Personally, I think it is pretty obvious he committed the crime. There is way too much evidence against him. Otherwise you have to go full CRC and completely contradict: these are moron, hillbilly cops that pulled of a CIA/JFK-level conspiracy. As noted previously, zero motive for a double-secret conspiracy to frame the guy.

Zero motive? You went full retard, bro

[Kyle 207]

8 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Zero motive? You went full retard, bro

You've thus avoided the question. What is the motive? 

[NorthLoop 14,215]

8 minutes ago, Kyle said:

You've thus avoided the question. What is the motive? 

Seriously? 

He was suing them for millions

[immortal13 4,059]

14 minutes ago, Kyle said:

You've thus avoided the question. What is the motive? 

That's been answered many times on this thread

[Eskimohorn 5,635]

You've thus avoided the question. What is the motive? 

But why male models?

[hayden_horn 11,362]

11 hours ago, Kyle said:

There are a ton of articles out there. I do not have a dog in the hunt. I just want people not to get suckered completely by propaganda and make up their own minds. I think the point of the articles is that the only reason anyone thinks he is innocent is because of the movie, and the movie clearly fabricates a story by omission. If you want more specifics, a couple more:

 https://www.businessinsider.com/making-a-murder-steven-avery-evidence-guilty-2016-1#avery-admitted-to-buying-handcuffs-and-leg-irons-11

https://news.avclub.com/read-this-the-damning-evidence-against-steven-avery-th-1798242739

Personally, I think it is pretty obvious he committed the crime. There is way too much evidence against him. Otherwise you have to go full CRC and completely contradict: these are moron, hillbilly cops that pulled of a CIA/JFK-level conspiracy. As noted previously, zero motive for a double-secret conspiracy to frame the guy.

 

11 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Zero motive? You went full retard, bro

 

2 hours ago, Kyle said:

You've thus avoided the question. What is the motive? 

 

2 hours ago, NorthLoop said:

Seriously? 

He was suing them for millions

but yall, he's got no dog in this hunt.

[Kyle 207]

3 hours ago, NorthLoop said:

Seriously? 

He was suing them for millions

As stated previously:

1. What is the cops' motive for saving the insurance company money? Do you genuinely think they created a massive conspiracy and risked their careers and pensions for an insurance company? Possible yes. Probable, I do not think so.

2. If you read about the case, the massive conspiracy would not and did not negate the previous settlement. I guess in addition to being CIA-level operatives, these cops also are expert actuaries who calculated how another arrest would impact the settlement calculus and probability weighted the risks and decided it was worth it (again, now apparently working on behalf of the county's insurance company).

If you get away from the emotion of the propaganda and think about it logically, it does not make a ton of sense. Even applying Occam's Razor, what do you think makes the most sense:

1. Cops pull off a massive conspiracy to reduce the settlement on behalf of the county's insurance company (risking their careers and pensions)

2. Avery did it given the tremendous evidence against him as well as motive, means, and opportunity

Maybe.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Kyle

[Player 4,575]

You're characterizing the county's insurance policy as if you have actually read it. Maybe you have, I don't know. 

But aren't intentional acts generally excluded from coverage? 

[deech 2,291]

52 minutes ago, Kyle said:

As stated previously:

1. What is the cops' motive for saving the insurance company money? Do you genuinely think they created a massive conspiracy and risked their careers and pensions for an insurance company? Possible yes. Probable, I do not think so.

2. If you read about the case, the massive conspiracy would not and did not negate the previous settlement. I guess in addition to being CIA-level operatives, these cops also are expert actuaries who calculated how another arrest would impact the settlement calculus and probability weighted the risks and decided it was worth it (again, now apparently working on behalf of the county's insurance company).

If you get away from the emotion of the propaganda and think about it logically, it does not make a ton of sense. Even applying Occam's Razor, what do you think makes the most sense:

1. Cops pull off a massive conspiracy to reduce the settlement on behalf of the county's insurance company (risking their careers and pensions)

2. Avery did it given the tremendous evidence against him as well as motive, means, and opportunity

Maybe.

There was a high likelihood that individuals would have been responsible for the judgment.  I doubt it would get to Lenk/Colburn as Colburn only received the phone call long after the initial incarceration, but Sheriff Pagel (and a few others) were very likely on the path towards individual liability and the insurance company very likely declining coverage.

On the second point regarding not knowing the impact,  you don't have to be a civil litigator to understand that an Avery murder conviction would dramatically impact the underlying civil lawsuit.  I mean a jury has to sit and here about how it was so terrible that a murderer was falsely incarcerated for a rape he did not commit.  How much do you think they are going to award a murderer for being falsely incarcerated?  That's if you look past the fact that he now has to pay attorneys to defend him in the criminal matter and/or deal with the Halbach's getting all of his money from any underlying civil matter.

I agree with you that logically it doesn't make much sense - the grand police conspiracy.   We can all agree though that the key was planted, right?   We can also agree that the lab person should never, ever be told "We need you to put her in the trailer."  We can also agree that legally the coroner for Manitowac County should have been brought in immediately upon finding bones in the burn pit and she should have been solely responsible for evidence collection related to the burn pit?  We can also agree that the expert report related to the Dassey computer searches should have been provided to the defense?

I also think that the State's theory in the case makes even less sense than the grand police conspiracy.  The only piece of tremendous evidence against him is the blood in the car IMHO.  I believe it's safe to say Zellner has undermined every other piece of evidence.  So I think we are left with an incomplete picture of what happened because of the shit investigation performed.  I blame the State for that and you think Occam's Razor - it's Avery.  I'm not saying it's not Avery, just that they did such a horrible job that reasonable doubt he should be out.

Side note, what is Avery's motive? 

 

[Buddy Hinton 103]

55 minutes ago, deech said:

There was a high likelihood that individuals would have been responsible for the judgment.  I doubt it would get to Lenk/Colburn as Colburn only received the phone call long after the initial incarceration, but Sheriff Pagel (and a few others) were very likely on the path towards individual liability and the insurance company very likely declining coverage.

On the second point regarding not knowing the impact,  you don't have to be a civil litigator to understand that an Avery murder conviction would dramatically impact the underlying civil lawsuit.  I mean a jury has to sit and here about how it was so terrible that a murderer was falsely incarcerated for a rape he did not commit.  How much do you think they are going to award a murderer for being falsely incarcerated?  That's if you look past the fact that he now has to pay attorneys to defend him in the criminal matter and/or deal with the Halbach's getting all of his money from any underlying civil matter.

I agree with you that logically it doesn't make much sense - the grand police conspiracy.   We can all agree though that the key was planted, right?   We can also agree that the lab person should never, ever be told "We need you to put her in the trailer."  We can also agree that legally the coroner for Manitowac County should have been brought in immediately upon finding bones in the burn pit and she should have been solely responsible for evidence collection related to the burn pit?  We can also agree that the expert report related to the Dassey computer searches should have been provided to the defense?

I also think that the State's theory in the case makes even less sense than the grand police conspiracy.  The only piece of tremendous evidence against him is the blood in the car IMHO.  I believe it's safe to say Zellner has undermined every other piece of evidence.  So I think we are left with an incomplete picture of what happened because of the shit investigation performed.  I blame the State for that and you think Occam's Razor - it's Avery.  I'm not saying it's not Avery, just that they did such a horrible job that reasonable doubt he should be out.

Side note, what is Avery's motive? 

 

The Steven Avery lawsuit filed in 2004 was against Manitowoc County, former Sheriff Thomas Kocourek and for DA Denis Vogel. All since retired at the time of the lawsuit

Lenk, Colburn, nor Sheriff Pagel  were not named in and did not face any repercussions from the lawsuit.

Most your paragraph 3 of things that we call all agree on is wrong. Most of that stuff has already been covered. For instance, the coroner - the investigation the day before had been handed it over to Calumet County. They also had found bone fragments, not a body. Nothing for a coroner to do.  The state crime lab handled the excavation.

Avery's motive? Read about his past. Even before his wrongful conviction he exhibited troubling behavior. Which unfortunately played a part in his wrongful conviction.    

[riloh05 107]

2 hours ago, Buddy Hinton said:

The Steven Avery lawsuit filed in 2004 was against Manitowoc County, former Sheriff Thomas Kocourek and for DA Denis Vogel. All since retired at the time of the lawsuit

Lenk, Colburn, nor Sheriff Pagel  were not named in and did not face any repercussions from the lawsuit.

Most your paragraph 3 of things that we call all agree on is wrong. Most of that stuff has already been covered. For instance, the coroner - the investigation the day before had been handed it over to Calumet County. They also had found bone fragments, not a body. Nothing for a coroner to do.  The state crime lab handled the excavation.

Avery's motive? Read about his past. Even before his wrongful conviction he exhibited troubling behavior. Which unfortunately played a part in his wrongful conviction.    

what's more troubling is that 2 guys are sitting in jail for a crime that was described 2 different ways. either the crime happened this way or that way. not both. one guy is innocent, the other guilty or they are both innocent. not both guilty.

i can read about his past, but that is no motive for murder.

[Buddy Hinton 103]

20 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

what's more troubling is that 2 guys are sitting in jail for a crime that was described 2 different ways. either the crime happened this way or that way. not both. one guy is innocent, the other guilty or they are both innocent. not both guilty.

i can read about his past, but that is no motive for murder.

Of course that is not a motive for murder. Just saying he had exhibited anti social behavior on previous occasions.

Numerous run-ins with LE. Dousing a family cat and throwing it in a fire. Threatening women. 

[Kyle 207]

3 hours ago, deech said:

There was a high likelihood that individuals would have been responsible for the judgment.  I doubt it would get to Lenk/Colburn as Colburn only received the phone call long after the initial incarceration, but Sheriff Pagel (and a few others) were very likely on the path towards individual liability and the insurance company very likely declining coverage.

On the second point regarding not knowing the impact,  you don't have to be a civil litigator to understand that an Avery murder conviction would dramatically impact the underlying civil lawsuit.  I mean a jury has to sit and here about how it was so terrible that a murderer was falsely incarcerated for a rape he did not commit.  How much do you think they are going to award a murderer for being falsely incarcerated?  That's if you look past the fact that he now has to pay attorneys to defend him in the criminal matter and/or deal with the Halbach's getting all of his money from any underlying civil matter.

I agree with you that logically it doesn't make much sense - the grand police conspiracy.   We can all agree though that the key was planted, right?   We can also agree that the lab person should never, ever be told "We need you to put her in the trailer."  We can also agree that legally the coroner for Manitowac County should have been brought in immediately upon finding bones in the burn pit and she should have been solely responsible for evidence collection related to the burn pit?  We can also agree that the expert report related to the Dassey computer searches should have been provided to the defense?

I also think that the State's theory in the case makes even less sense than the grand police conspiracy.  The only piece of tremendous evidence against him is the blood in the car IMHO.  I believe it's safe to say Zellner has undermined every other piece of evidence.  So I think we are left with an incomplete picture of what happened because of the shit investigation performed.  I blame the State for that and you think Occam's Razor - it's Avery.  I'm not saying it's not Avery, just that they did such a horrible job that reasonable doubt he should be out.

Side note, what is Avery's motive? 

Thanks for the thoughtful response. It is refreshing to have a reasonable conversation.

I'm not an attorney or insurance executive, so I admit I can speak authoritatively, but I would be surprised if any public official would be held personally negligent or liable in a civil case. Regardless, I do not think that changes the argument because the cops also likely were not experts in civil litigation and insurance liability, so the grand conspiracy would require quite a bit of sophistication on their parts. I do not see any evidence that points to level of sophistication. The fact Avery in fact was paid also pretty much answers that argument. We could play what-if all day long, but we have no reliable way truly to predict what his settlement might have been had he not been arrested again. 

To your second point, I certainly am not going to defend every action of the county, but those mistakes also do not necessarily point to a grand conspiracy. I am confident that if virtually every case was put under the microscope like Avery's, people could point to procedural mistakes. Does not excuse them - our public officials should be held to the highest office - but that also to me does not point to a grand conspiracy. I 100% agree with you (I do not particularly like the adversarial system) that also in virtually every prosecution the state does not adequately provide the defense with evidence in a timely manner and often hides exculpatory evidence. Zero argument there and no excuse.

I'll respectfully disagree on the evidence. IMHO, there is overwhelming evidence pointing to him. I grant we all have the benefit of hindsight, and I do not know how I would have voted had I been on the jury. It does feel like the standard some expect to meet (zero doubt vs. reasonably doubt), virtually no one ever would be convicted of a crime. Back to what I typed earlier, 99% of cases can be picked apart and strong cases made for innocence. Some might agree, which is totally cool and another conversation - no value judgment just an observation.

In terms of motive, Avery seemed to have a strong desire to execute a violent sexual fantasy and clearly fancied Theresa Halbech. Likely his motive was no different than most rapists.

[CurlyDumps 4,476]

5 hours ago, deech said:

Side note, what is Avery's motive? 

2 hours ago, riloh05 said:

 

i can read about his past, but that is no motive for murder.

Someone on or around the Avery/Dassey property murdered Teresa Halbach. At this point I feel that's a given. Hence the killer had no personal relationship with the victim in this crime. 

What is the motive of anyone who targets, assaults, and kills a woman he doesn't know?

Personally - and this is armchair profiling - my theory is that Avery felt invincible after becoming a local celebrity and on the brink of riches.  Imagine: violent, abusive asshole finds out he's about to be a millionaire. Doesn't sound like someone I'd wanna be around. Probably felt he was king of the world, and that he could do whatever the hell he wanted and face no consequences.

Edited January 16, 2019 by CurlyDumps

[immortal13 4,059]

He felt invincible after spending 18 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit? Ok.....

[CurlyDumps 4,476]

18 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

He felt invincible after spending 18 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit? Ok.....

That 18-year prison stint didn't stop him from abusing his girlfriend and raping his niece.

[McFly 606]

There is no grand conspiracy.  Just like it didn't take a grand conspiracy to convict him of rape. 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

18 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

That 18-year prison stint didn't stop him from abusing his girlfriend and raping his niece.

Whaaaat? He raped his niece?

[CurlyDumps 4,476]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Whaaaat? He raped his niece?

 Based on police reports, in 2004 he allegedly raped  his 17-year-old niece.  The victim interviewed and was willing to testify. She also said Avery made threats against her and that she was afraid of him. A family friend was willing to testify that Avery told her he was dating & fucking her (the niece). Avery's girlfriend also said that Avery told her he fucked the niece. Apparently the case was put on hold when Avery was charged with murder, and I guess eventually dropped since he was sentenced to life w/o parole.

So, he was never charged. But when you look at his pattern of behavior toward women (exposing himself to his cousin, running her off the road, pointing a gun at her & threatening her, threatening letters to his ex-wife, allegations of abuse from his girlfriend Jodi), I'm inclined to believe the allegations were true.

Links to the police reports if you wanna read them yourself: https://www.reddit.com/r/StevenAveryIsGuilty/comments/9wgx52/kk_is_scum_but_sa_is_an_angel/e9lewdd/

 

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by CurlyDumps

[Goo Punch 4,275]

if Avery actually did kill Theresa Halbach then these cops are even more retarded than if he didn't. why perform the world's sloppiest frame job on a guilty man with a violent and dangerous past? why completely fabricated two different versions of a crime that clearly didn't happen if this idiot actually did kill someone on his property? 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Goo Punch