Here's me: socially about as liberal as they get, fiscally I just want the government to work like it's supposed to - spend what it needs and not a penny more. I don't know what label you have for that, but stick one on it if you want.

I look at the current political climate and the clear division in the platforms of those on the right and the left. Assuming we can restore some sense of sanity after the midterms, I think both major parties and the gaggle of smaller parties behind them need to have some serious inner dialogue about their message for the future.

In my eyes, the Dems - even as prone as they are to trip on their own dicks as they are - have a message that resonates with a lot of young people. Especially those who are modelling their message after Bernie. Sorry, if that's shocking news to you, but it's the truth.

So, in the next few years what you are going to have is the Dems veering toward the message of Bernie and the democratic socialist agenda. On the right - what? Is it still going to be the message of fear and division? I hope not. I think about a young person growing up a rural area and whose tendencies and thoughts would fit into the category of conservative. When they look for guidance on what it means to be a conservative, who will be their role models. More Trumps? More Cruz's? Who then?

I'll be honest because I was that person. I grew up in the sticks outside of Dallas. There were a lot of blue-collar people there. I was very conservative growing up. Catholic household and whatnot. My first voting-age election was Bush Jr. I voted for him. At the time it didn't sting my conscience one bit. Fast forward to 2008 and you find the same me campaigning and primarying for Barack Obama. Republicans, I got away (but then again, I do not identify as a Dem either).

You may not like their policies, but the crop of candidates being put up right now by the Dems have a much more compassionate tone to their rhetoric and that is driving young people to them. Look at what's happening in Florida. I bet Gillum wins, and I bet we'll discover it was because people under 30 got out and voted. Maybe not, but it seems like a good bet right now.

So, surly friends who call themselves conservative - honestly - how do you keep the next me from getting away?

 

Going full Nazi will be the easier sell. 

 

What are they going run on? Family values, personal responsibility, free trade, and fiscal conservatism? 

Yeah, okay. 

I like you, I do. But I was really hoping this wouldn't start off with a flame. I won't quote if you wanna answer with something meaningful

I’m dead serious.  

They have nothing left in the tank except vilify the other and consolidate power.  

Conservatives have to have some core ideology before we can even consider how to sell it.

Who sold you on your core beliefs/ values?

That notion seems odd as fuck to me.  Life itself is the teacher.  Experiences.  Hardships.  Lessons.

Some do, indeed, prefer the classroom and hearing someone else talk about how life "should be."

 

yeah, that script is hardly worth a fuck.

Edited October 25, 20187 yr by slorch

The GOP is pretty much all in on Trumpism.  They force the orange mini-mushroom down the next generation's throats in a way that they accept it (i.e. well, at least my paycheck is okay), or they die.

meh....no need to really sell it to the next generation.

Life experiences tend to produce additional righties/reds as people age. 

The pubs have been facing the demographic death spiral since i've been following politics. Yet....they always seem to regain power.  

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

Who sold you on your core beliefs/ values?

That notion seems odd as fuck to me.  Life itself is the teacher.  Experiences.  Hardships.  Lessons.

Some do, indeed, prefer the classroom and hearing someone else talk about how life "should be."

 

yeah, that script is hardly worth a fuck.

Good question.  I honestly didn’t know exactly who I was politically until the 2016 election.  

However, I did know who I was not.  I was never a “team” player.  Messages that inspire others to make the world better, safer, and freer resonate most with me.  Ideas have value politically to me.  There are good ideas and bad ideas.  My vote tends to go with the candidate that promotes the better ideas. 

 

The GOP was doomed the minute they let the bible-thumpers get a foot in the door. 

 

How do you sell conservatism to anyone without using fear?

 

How do you sell conservatism to anyone without using fear?
 

Ask Lincoln?

12 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I’m dead serious.  

They have nothing left in the tank except vilify the other and consolidate power.  

Conservatives have to have some core ideology before we can even consider how to sell it.

This.  There may be a future for actual conservatives if they can go back to their core ideology, or at least what they said it was pre-pandering to the religious right and going all in on the prosperity bible, celebrating ignorance, and trumpism.  But actual conservatives need to ditch the GOP and start a new party.

19 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

The GOP was doomed the minute they let the bible-thumpers get a foot in the door. 

 

they had cash...

 

and some terribad baggage.

The right picking up people who become more conservative as they age is going to need to become conservative.  I'm not going to become more of a bible thumper and more anti-urban centers as I age.

Conservatism used to mean two main things - fiscal and personal responsibility.

Fiscal responsibility is a complete joke. They are accelerating the debt bombs.

As far as personal responsibility, that has now morphed into cruel treatment of the less fortunate and a removal of fairness from the equation of life, along with excessive pandering to rich people and big business.

It’s sickening and why after voting quite a bit for Republicans in the past, I will likely vote almost a straight Democrat ticket in the election.

Unless some big changes happen soon in the Republican Party, me and my other 5-10% sitting in the middle as practical independents will take our votes to the only place that’s even halfway reasonable - to the Democrats.

There are a lot of things that still work. They just need to back off on the super socially conservative stuff (which is all centered in religion....which separation of church and state?). Defense and limited government are winning platforms.

2 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

There are a lot of things that still work. They just need to back off on the super socially conservative stuff (which is all centered in religion....which separation of church and state?). Defense and limited government are winning platforms.
 

Gotta love the inherent contradictions in conservative doctrine.

What is contradictory? Or do you think limited government means limited defense? Government can’t solve all your personal problems DD

4 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Uh, the bible thumpers have been a huge part of the GOP for a long time.  Why are they running up the score then at pretty much every level of govt?  Your comment does not make sense.

I personally dont like the religious right but you cant say it has hurt the party because of all the states the GOP controls and all levels of federal govt.

The GOP is about to get its teeth kicked in in a whole bunch of states.

9 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Uh, the bible thumpers have been a huge part of the GOP for a long time.  Why are they running up the score then at pretty much every level of govt?  Your comment does not make sense.

I personally dont like the religious right but you cant say it has hurt the party because of all the states the GOP controls and all levels of federal govt.

Check back in in a few weeks, check back in in a few years.  It's normal for power to shift back and forth between the left and right, two ends of a group that is generally moving in the one direction.  The current right is a break from that, their power is overrepresented in government because of how our government works and that they have not yet had to face the backlash.  It is not tenable.

Edited October 26, 20187 yr by Celery Man

1 minute ago, tjhooker said:

this has been going on for almost 20 yrs.  It started at the state level and now has worked it's way all the way up to the federal level.  I am sure the GOP will lose seats in Congress.  There normally are fairly violent swings in mid term elections.  Especially, the 1st one after a 1st term president.  Ask Clinton, Bush and Obama.  They got slaughtered in mid terms.  Overall though the trend has been towards the GOP and not away.  The facts are the facts.  Just look at the number of states controlled by Dems 20 yrs ago and now.  It is fairly shocking to be honest.

the main part where we see things differently is if the trump administration and takeover of the GOP is another part of a trend or a notable and historical break/event

3 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

this has been going on for almost 20 yrs.  It started at the state level and now has worked it's way all the way up to the federal level.  I am sure the GOP will lose seats in Congress.  There normally are fairly violent swings in mid term elections.  Especially, the 1st one after a 1st term president.  Ask Clinton, Bush and Obama.  They got slaughtered in mid terms.  Overall though the trend has been towards the GOP and not away.  The facts are the facts.  Just look at the number of states controlled by Dems 20 yrs ago and now.  It is fairly shocking to be honest.

That trend is going to shift back to the left in a couple of weeks. 

33 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

There are a lot of things that still work. They just need to back off on the super socially conservative stuff (which is all centered in religion....which separation of church and state?). Defense and limited government are winning platforms.
 

Yup.  That's why the GOP pretends they believe in both.  But their actions are the opposite of their words.

1 minute ago, tjhooker said:

I just said that would be with the trend historically for midterms.  I'd be astounded if there wasnt a swing back.  Especially in the house.  Just like Obama's 1st term.

I think it's going to be a long term trend. I think Donald Trump has done tremendous damage to the Republican Party.

3 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Yup.  That's why the GOP pretends they believe in both.  But their actions are the opposite of their words.

agreed.

That's why conservatives are sitting there wondering for whom to vote...

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

agreed.

That's why conservatives are sitting there wondering for whom to vote...

And when a "real" conservative candidate runs, they may well get this liberal's vote.  I don't know of one that's run since I've been voting age. 

The assholes that have called themselves that were anything but.  "Small Government", except for bloated military-industrial complex and massive corporate welfare. 

 

 

Edited October 26, 20187 yr by Gil Bang

Just now, tjhooker said:

Rand Paul?

Are you fucking retarded?  

2 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Rand Paul?

Rand Paul voted for the tax cut bill. 

As a result, we now have a trillion dollar deficit.

Try again.

2 hours ago, lemonlime said:

This.  There may be a future for actual conservatives if they can go back to their core ideology, or at least what they said it was pre-pandering to the religious right and going all in on the prosperity bible, celebrating ignorance, and trumpism.  But actual conservatives need to ditch the GOP and start a new party.

I wouldn’t hate voting for that party. I was stunned when my older bro wanted to vote Buchanan way back when. Buch. was an “I hate Browns before trump” but fiscally not that wrong? Dunno but seems hard to separate the hate from conservatives even way back when

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Rand Paul voted for the tax cut bill. 

As a result, we now have a trillion dollar deficit.

Try again.

Just wait till that $ starts trickling down tho.

No party should be talking about deficit spending.  Between Obama and now Trump's leadership I fear we will be past the point of no return.  Seriously if that is important to you then you're fucked.

I was doing some research and looked at how many years out of the last 60 we’ve had a surplus. 5. And four of them were 1998-01.

I grew up in a Conservative, Christian, Right-wing Republican household.

I've voted Republican for many years.  My wife worked for GW Bush while he was Governor of Texas and I was a big supporter of his.

I've done a complete 180 and now support a majority of Dem/Liberal ideology.

I voted for Trump, because I grew up hating the Clinton's, but I hate the fact that I did.

I don't know what the future holds, but I can't see myself voting Repub for any foreseeable future. 

Just now, Pablo said:

I grew up in a Conservative, Christian, Right-wing Republican household.

I've voted Republican for many years.  My wife worked for GW Bush while he was Governor of Texas and I was a big supporter of his.

I've done a complete 180 and now support a majority of Dem/Liberal ideology.

I voted for Trump, because I grew up hating the Clinton's, but I hate the fact that I did.

I don't know what the future holds, but I can't see myself voting Repub for any foreseeable future. 

Yep, no way - you sound pretty bedrock in your leanings.  

You want to raise kids as "conservatives" just give them a copy of this and tell them you need a book report.

Obama added more to the deficit than all the other presidents combined including Bush for the entire history of the US.  If you think the Dems are serious about debt reduction you have only a couple yrs to look back.  

Neither party is nor do I think it matters. The ratio of debt to gdp is what matters

They’ll evolve (maybe wrong word) their ideas, a la trump turning them into a populist party.

9 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Obama added more to the deficit than all the other presidents combined including Bush for the entire history of the US. 

Gee, I wonder why.

 

Edited October 26, 20187 yr by David Dennison

12 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Obama added more to the deficit than all the other presidents combined including Bush for the entire history of the US.  If you think the Dems are serious about debt reduction you have only a couple yrs to look back.  

good thing we learned our lesson from bailing out wall street and are more careful now when we deregulate business

I would really like conservatism to go back to "protecting traditional institutions from government interference" rather than "promotion of traditional institutions via government interference" but I'm not holding my breath.  

2 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

good thing we learned our lesson from bailing out wall street and are more careful now when we deregulate business

Hard question, but for me I would say more fiscal responsibility, less focus on bathrooms, transgenders, and bakeries selling cakes to LGBT people.  These are losing issues long-term, the world is changing and they need to react to that reality.  Heavy, heavy. focus on stopping government waste, corruption, and greed in bloated government programs that waste far too much money because of the system as it exists right now.  (this is a problem for both parties)  Focus on extreme transparency in how government projects are created, written, and especially funded with all information easily available on all major spending for scrutiny with multiple audits by non-partisan entities that are also transparent and available for the media/public.  Less deficit spending and actually mean it.  

Abandon say 500k and more salaries, and focus on a massive tax cut for the middle class without having to break the budget because you haven't cut the top rates.   Sacrifice the current healthcare platform and convert to a model more based on utilities and focus on creating a better system for overall healthcare used in many countries that are poorer than us yet have better healthcare outcomes and more efficiency.  That's a hugely difficult shift, but healthcare works in a lot of places better than here and with many poorer countries.

Fight on the idea that bloated college debt is always the best route for everyone -- it's not actually.  Create real job training for the future in tech/innovative industries to give many Americans the opportunity to bootstrap beyond their starting place in life without having to get 100k in debt for a 30k job that puts you in debt for a decade or longer.  The truth is that many jobs here now will be useless in 20 years and they should be the party to have a vision for the future.

Bottom line even more: A VISION for the future, not division and rhetoric.  Why did 1994 go so well with them?  They actually presented a vision that resonated with people, when is the last time either party actually articulated a true vision versus attack back and forth?

You don't have to budge much on some issues (guns, certain reasonable social issues, tough on crime) as you can't please everyone.

Just these off the top of my head, I bet there is so much more out there I suppose...

 

Young people do identify with Bernie. Then they get drunk; fall asleep in the getaway car and forget to vote.

9 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

I dunno.  Spending much more than you bring in?  Just a shot in the dark though.   Could be wrong.

Which is exactly what you should do in a deep recession.

Here's what the baby boomer generation was taught for decades: 

1. Communism=(socialism)=ENEMY. 

2.   Democrats=dirty hippy, pagan, bohemian, nonbelievers. 

3.  Republicans=God and Jesus and Family.  (If a candidate says he believes in Jesus, then that candidate can eat a puppy on live tv, and my parents will still vote for him.)

At this point, baby boomers are too old/apathetic to rewire their brains. 

Youth has always gravitated toward socialism/fairness/democrats, but baby boomers are here for another 10+ years and they're going to keep voting for Republican, no matter what direction the republican party goes.   (And there are roughly 74 million baby boomers right now)  No selling required.  

 

Edited October 26, 20187 yr by Monster

Like the op, I think the Republican Party will need some rebranding. So many young people are so disgusted with the republicans that I’m not sure they will trend more republican as they age as much as in the past. I think the party will be trying to erase the stain of the trump era for at least a generation IF it ever regains sanity.

The youths are majority-minority. Half are also women. They are better educated than the olds. They've come of age in a time of wealth inequality, which is strongly corelated to opportunity inequality, not seen in 100 years.

Have y'all tried not having your bread and and butter policies not explicitly and openly:

- Scapegoating, demonizing, and disenfranchising people of color?
- Devaluing women?
- Ignoring objective facts and shitting on scientific consensus?
- Tilting the scales in favor of the richest among us at the expense of the bottom ~90 percent?

Perhaps it's worth a try. Just a thought.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

3 hours ago, Monster said:

Here's what the baby boomer generation was taught for decades: 

1. Communism=(socialism)=ENEMY. 

2.   Democrats=dirty hippy, pagan, bohemian, nonbelievers. 

3.  Republicans=God and Jesus and Family.  (If a candidate says he believes in Jesus, then that candidate can eat a puppy on live tv, and my parents will still vote for him.)

At this point, baby boomers are too old/apathetic to rewire their brains. 

Youth has always gravitated toward socialism/fairness/democrats, but baby boomers are here for another 10+ years and they're going to keep voting for Republican, no matter what direction the republican party goes.   (And there are roughly 74 million baby boomers right now)  No selling required.  

 

This.  My wife and I had this exact conversation earlier about the SOCIALISM! cries from the anti-Beto people.  It's such a tired phrase trotted out by the baby boomers and trumpkins and their ilk that are younger than boomers eat it up because they were taught it was such a bad word. 

Okay, I’ve given this some thought and there is a way back for conservatives but it’s a long hard road they will probably not take, because it’s too hard.

They need to earn back the public’s trust first. This will be a challenge and take time.  They will have to abandon all the bullshit fear mongering, voter suppression, conspiracy theories, and nonsense.  They will have to clean their own house and stop legitimizing Trumpism.  Run those crazy folks back to the shadows and denounce them.

Until they have some mutual accountability, they shouldn’t be trusted with power. 

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

This.  My wife and I had this exact conversation earlier about the SOCIALISM! cries from the anti-Beto people.  It's such a tired phrase trotted out by the baby boomers and trumpkins and their ilk that are younger than boomers eat it up because they were taught it was such a bad word. 

My fully red, baby boomer parents are possibly the most socialist behaving people I know.  They spend a huge part of their time and money helping poor people.   I sincerely believe they are much better human beings than I am.   

Yet, when its time to vote, it's like they forget who they are.   Suddenly they're ready to build a wall, keep out the undesirables, and shut down welfare.   

These are the same people who, despite my protests, gave a house key to a random homeless man and let him live in their spare room for two weeks.

For decades, baby boomers have been programmed, clockwork orange style, to fear-hate the word socialist/communist/democrat...despite the fact they, quite literally, worship one of the most storied socialists in history.  

If I wasn't afraid it would melt their brains, I'd ask them: What Would Jesus Do?  Vote for Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump?

 

Edited October 26, 20187 yr by Monster

9 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

Here's me: socially about as liberal as they get, fiscally I just want the government to work like it's supposed to - spend what it needs and not a penny more.

Translation:

Socially, I want the government to spend tons of money on social programs. Fiscally, I want the government to spend tons of money on social programs, but not a penny more.