What it means to be a conservative going forward and how to sell it to the next generation

[RayDog 682]

I posted part of an item by item analysis of the 2016 Republican platform and found that with few exceptions they are below 40% popularity in polling of the general public or lies.

I think there were 5 or 6 items out of 125+ that did not fall in those categories.

[Turkleton 145]

What I'm getting out of this thread is republicans need to be more like democrats and socialism is a good thing. This about right? 

Oh, and boomers are brain-dead.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Turkleton

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

This.  My wife and I had this exact conversation earlier about the SOCIALISM! cries from the anti-Beto people.  It's such a tired phrase trotted out by the baby boomers and trumpkins and their ilk that are younger than boomers eat it up because they were taught it was such a bad word. 

It's more than a bad word.  It is penalizing achievement.

Socialism isn't rooted in 'fairness,' as described in posts in this thread.  It rewards sloth, lack of effort, and unwillingness to take on responsibility.

It will always be that way.

 

and being anti-illegal immigrant is not necessarily racist, regardless of how many times it is repeated by the do-gooders.  Open borders are bad.  Letting everyone in the country while also promoting socialism is going to fuck us up.  That is why it is easy as hell to oppose the left.

[Dbeasy 15042]

What I'm getting out of this thread is republicans need to be more like democrats and socialism is a good thing. This about right? 
Oh, and boomers are brain-dead.

I don’t read it that way. Extremism on the left is almost as bad, if not more. The attitude of the government fixing every problem and forgetting about personal responsibility is just as bad.

Right now we have a choice between two very bad parties who are too beholden to extremist positions. In that scenario, pragmatic reasonable decisions are hard to achieve. We are left with the option to vote for the party that seems to be slightly less unreasonable, and right now the Democrats suck slightly less.

To really solve the problem, if the 15-20% of the population that isn’t glued to their party would band together and start supporting the more reasonable candidates from either party, then it might reign in some of the extremism of both parties. Unfortunately, people are unable to avoid the brainwashing from their favorite biased media outlets, although right now the democrats are much better at critical thinking skills than the Fox News following idiots.

[Celery Man 20933]

3 hours ago, EuroHorn said:

Translation:

Socially, I want the government to spend tons of money on social programs. Fiscally, I want the government to spend tons of money on social programs, but not a penny more.

 

 

If you were honest, someone might think it was worthwhile to point out that "socially liberal" when contrasted to fiscally conservative virtually always (and definitely in this case) means "against using the government as a "Christian" morals enforcement squad", and mostly leaving people the fuck alone when they're doing shit that isn't anyone else's business.

[RayDog 682]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

It's more than a bad word.  It is penalizing achievement.

Socialism isn't rooted in 'fairness,' as described in posts in this thread.  It rewards sloth, lack of effort, and unwillingness to take on responsibility.

It will always be that way.

 

and being anti-illegal immigrant is not necessarily racist, regardless of how many times it is repeated by the do-gooders.  Open borders are bad.  Letting everyone in the country while also promoting socialism is going to fuck us up.  That is why it is easy as hell to oppose the left.

Except there is no left when progressive policies poll at 60% or higher. Even Democrats who oppose healthcare for all are right wingers now. The country already provides healthcare, social security, disability, education, wage controls, fire, police, roads, border protection, a defensive military, and more. Wanting to make those things work better is a mainstream position.

The actual number of people advocating for socialism or open borders is in the very low single digits. There is no reason to even bring them up.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by RayDog

[TornACL 7698]

The Republican Party killed itself when it doubled down on its association with religion. 

It doesn't work with the moderates, and it welcome in with open arms the crack pots who think all manner of terrible behavior is fine because "God's will" 

You know, the same kind of people we try to kill if they're Muslim. 

[Js1 85293]

2 hours ago, Turkleton said:

What I'm getting out of this thread is republicans need to be more like democrats and socialism is a good thing. This about right? 

Or, here me out:

Republicans act like Republicans - actual fiscal conservatism, free trade good, staying out of the bedroom, promoting hard-earned opportunities and bootstrap-ism (funny that immigrants are the one who would be most likely to listen to a message of promoting working their assess off to achieve a better life) - instead of Christian God Warriors catering to the rich and trying to kick out the browns.

[Biff Tannen 45665]

2 hours ago, slorch said:

It's more than a bad word.  It is penalizing achievement.

Socialism isn't rooted in 'fairness,' as described in posts in this thread.  It rewards sloth, lack of effort, and unwillingness to take on responsibility.

It will always be that way.

 

and being anti-illegal immigrant is not necessarily racist, regardless of how many times it is repeated by the do-gooders.  Open borders are bad.  Letting everyone in the country while also promoting socialism is going to fuck us up.  That is why it is easy as hell to oppose the left.

The problem is no one, or at least very few people, are actually advocating for full on SOCIALISM!  There are aspects of socialism that should and have already been worked into our system and a lot of it works really well and the majority of people like it.  Universal healthcare is coming whether you like it or not, but have fun dying on that hill.

Stop with the open borders bullshit.  Not a single got damn person on this board or in politics advocates that. 

These aren't binary issues.  The answer lies somewhere in the middle.

[Fozzz 152]

 

2 hours ago, slorch said:

It's more than a bad word.  It is penalizing achievement.

Socialism isn't rooted in 'fairness,' as described in posts in this thread.  It rewards sloth, lack of effort, and unwillingness to take on responsibility.

It will always be that way.

 

and being anti-illegal immigrant is not necessarily racist, regardless of how many times it is repeated by the do-gooders.  Open borders are bad.  Letting everyone in the country while also promoting socialism is going to fuck us up.  That is why it is easy as hell to oppose the left.

These nitwits want us to become VENEZUALA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gmr548 16576]

Shocking.  Most on this CR board believe Republicans are dead and the only future they can see is Democrats taking over.  I wouldve never guessed that being the outcome after 65 replies.

I don't think they're dead, I think they're intellectually and morally bankrupt. That is a competitive position in this country.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Js1 85293]

18 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Shocking.  Most on this CR board believe Republicans are dead and the only future they can see is Democrats taking over.  I wouldve never guessed that being the outcome after 65 replies. 

Republicans are dead.

Trumplicans are alive and well.

[Fozzz 152]

The Republican party has been intellectually and morally bankrupt since the demise of the Radical Republicans.  Think about how much better we would be right now had Thaddeus Stevens had his way!

[gmr548 16576]

I never delved much into the Politics forum and the last few yrs CR on Shaggy.  I always noticed it leaned left on Shaggy but at least there were a number of right of center posters back then.  Now it is just a huge echo chamber.  Tons of confirmation bias.  I can read the titles of these threads and before I click on them I know how 90% of the responses will read.  They should rename the forum.  Left Politics High Fives Forum. LOL

Poor triggered snowflake.

This board doesn't lean hard left. It leans hard anti-GOP bc of Trump and the party's total submission to him.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[WBT 20561]

32 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Shocking.  Most on this CR board believe Republicans are dead and the only future they can see is Democrats taking over.  I wouldve never guessed that being the outcome after 65 replies.

You think it's surprising?  There were two or there similar threads running on TOS in October 2016

[lemonlime 5503]

30 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Shocking.  Most on this CR board believe Republicans are dead and the only future they can see is Democrats taking over.  I wouldve never guessed that being the outcome after 65 replies.

I don't think they're dead, and I haven't seen anyone except maybe Dennison post that they're dead.  I think the GOP deserves to be dead as they've proven themselves to be racist, sexist, selifish assholes whose attempts at governance have led to huge deficits, thousands unnecessarily killed in Iraq, and the cruelty that is Trumpism.

And interesting that the GOPers on here think that by wanting the GOP to go back to a time when they weren't anti-intellectual and an arm of the worst aspects of evangelical Christianity, that would make them democrats.  

[seven 1367]

Anyone who thinks the cr "leaned left" is an alt-right troll or literally never read anything in the cr. 

[Fozzz 152]

I don't think anyone on cr understood what "left" means.  Being on the "left" or a "leftist" is more than just not believing that gays are subhuman.  

[seven 1367]

There will always be the anti-tax wing of the gop, I'm sceptical that their racism, homophobia, and sexism will continue much longer. It's just so obviously a losing position in the long run. 

[seven 1367]

I bet tjhooker thinks txags "leans slightly right", fucking moron 

[Js1 85293]

1 minute ago, seven said:

There will always be the anti-tax wing of the gop, I'm sceptical that their racism, homophobia, and sexism will continue much longer. It's just so obviously a losing position in the long run. 

Unfortunately, until you exorcise the "MAGA" out of the GOP, it ain't happening.  Someone more competent at politics than Trump will co-opt it.  "Trump started to MAGA, but he wasn't a savvy politician and didn't know how to get the MAGA-ing through Congress."

[tantric superman 4667]

The folks on surly who pass for conservatives can't really help you because they are the reason the conservatives are morally dead.

Most people would agree with candidates who make educational opportunity a priority -- so that everyone has a chance -- and from that one single foundational point, can branch off into however fiscally responsible you want to be. 

1) Make sure everyone has educational opportunity.

2) Balance your budget

That's pretty much it.  If you do those two you can be as libertarian as you want.

Edited October 26, 2018 by tantric superman

[Fozzz 152]

Why do you think conservatives believe it's even possible for everyone to have a chance?  Ever read any Charles Murray?  

[tantric superman 4667]

1 minute ago, tjhooker said:

LOL no party does that so which way do you vote?

Well, the candidates on the Dems side seem a lot more interested in educational opportunity than the "fuck you" Republicans.  So they get the edge now.

This thread is about what "conservatives" can do, and so the least odious Republicans to me existed back in the George Bush I days.  They at least were still trying to appear to care about those with less opportunities and even though they were lying, at least they were talking about a balanced budget.

 

 

[babysdaddy 2721]

8 minutes ago, seven said:

There will always be the anti-tax wing of the gop, I'm sceptical that their racism, homophobia, and sexism will continue much longer. It's just so obviously a losing position in the long run. 

Dude, read what you just wrote.  People can be anti-tax and not be racist, sexist, homophobes.  I know that's a big step for people of Surly to admit but it is possible.  Draw a venn diagram for yourself it will help.  JFC.

[seven 1367]

2 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

Dude, read what you just wrote.  People can be anti-tax and not be racist, sexist, homophobes.  I know that's a big step for people of Surly to admit but it is possible.  Draw a venn diagram for yourself it will help.  JFC.

Uh, no duh, I just wrote that they are the future of the gop because they will always be around. 

Edited October 26, 2018 by seven

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

5 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

LOL no party does that so which way do you vote?

The bottom line is we need better candidates that are in it for the right reasons...on both sides but more so on the Republican side now.

I bemoan the nihilism of Trumpism and long for the days of intellectual conservatism based in reality with respect to science, facts, and truth.

I acknowledge for our democracy/society to be successful we need two healthy parties that come to the table in good faith with each having a responsibility of holding themselves accountable. 

If that makes me a libtard then so be it.

[AtticusFinch 155]

17 minutes ago, seven said:

There will always be the anti-tax wing of the gop, I'm sceptical that their racism, homophobia, and sexism will continue much longer. It's just so obviously a losing position in the long run. 

Being anti-tax is racist now? I realize this is the general position of the left but it fascinates me.  I dont understand why the left is completely set on the fact that higher taxes is always the answer but they seem fine with government corruption, waste and free giveaways in the billions of dollars to other countries...no loans, just giveaways

[babysdaddy 2721]

Just now, seven said:

Uh, no duh, I just wrote that they are the future of the gop because they will always be around. 

Got it, you're saying the the future of the gop will be driven by the racist/sexist/homophobes rather than the anti-tax wing.  Carry on.  

[Tom 2959]

3 hours ago, slorch said:

It's more than a bad word.  It is penalizing achievement.

Socialism isn't rooted in 'fairness,' as described in posts in this thread.  It rewards sloth, lack of effort, and unwillingness to take on responsibility.

It will always be that way.

 

and being anti-illegal immigrant is not necessarily racist, regardless of how many times it is repeated by the do-gooders.  Open borders are bad.  Letting everyone in the country while also promoting socialism is going to fuck us up.  That is why it is easy as hell to oppose the left.

If only the left were for open borders you might have something mildly resembling a point.  But you seem to have fully embraced the right wing scare tactics.

As far as socialism, it has its place in some areas and should be rejected in others.  Nobody conservative or liberal minds that we have socialized military, police, fire fighters, libraries, schools, postal service, roads, etc.  But I guess doctors and medicine is a bridge too far.  Nobody is suggesting all industry be handed over to the government, only that other nations have figured out that putting a profit motive on people's livelihood doesn't produce the best of results and we should emulate them.

 

What i think Biff Tannen was referring to was the tactic Republicans use to proclaim something like single payer will turn us into some socialist/communist country where all industry will be controlled by the government.  It won't.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Tom

[seven 1367]

1 minute ago, babysdaddy said:

Got it, you're saying the the future of the gop will be driven by the racist/sexist/homophobes rather than the anti-tax wing.  Carry on.  

No, the exact opposite, good grief. 

[Js1 85293]

*borders

[seven 1367]

To clarify, the anti-tax wing will stick around. The gop will eventually drop the racism etc as the main feature because it's a losing position. 

[Tom 2959]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

*borders

Edited, but can I blame it on auto correct?  I'm hoping it was auto-correct.

[Js1 85293]

11 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

 the least odious Republicans to me existed back in the George Bush I days.  They at least were still trying to appear to care about those with less opportunities and even though they were lying, at least they were talking about a balanced budget.

Give us some combo of Bush I economics + Bush 2 "compassionate conservatives" who actually wanted to give immigration reform a shot and maybe you can salvage something.

[Celery Man 20933]

I bemoan the loss of the literate right

[babysdaddy 2721]

Look, it's impossible to understand what is the purposeful implication of what he wrote.  Seven is far left surly so the way that sentence is written it reads as if he's grouping all anti-tax folks with the racists.  I bemoan the loss of clear writing and spelling of the literate left.

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

It means you are for naked self-interest.  And that shit never goes out of style.

[Guest]

The denial of socialism being socialism is a weird dynamic.  Just own who you are  The dodges are telling... and contribute mightily to the mistrust. Then add in politically convenient rape accusations and bomb threats, and I’d say the left is doing what they can to drive away part of its own constituency.

Wanting fewer restrictions on immigration is what it is. How bout we enforce the current laws and see where it goes? Stop trying to go thunderdome on evrything... 

[Incredulity 11655]

6 minutes ago, slorch said:

The denial of socialism being socialism is a weird dynamic.  Just own who you are  The dodges are telling... and contribute mightily to the mistrust. Then add in politically convenient rape accusations and bomb threats, and I’d say the left is doing what they can to drive away part of its own constituency.

Wanting fewer restrictions on immigration is what it is. How bout we enforce the current laws and see where it goes? Stop trying to go thunderdome on evrything... 

Do you even know the definition of socialism, I mean the Webster Definition......ARasofhsdfh!!!!!!1

I guess you hate roads and the post office.  MOran!!!!!!

 

/surlylibtard

[Bat Guano 359]

The R party as it currently manifests itself will be around for the foreseeable future. This of course has nothing to do with conservatism, but there are enough triggered snowflakes in the Trump party to continue to be manipulated by fear of brown people and socialists to keep them in power - see the misunderstandings of socialism on this very thread for evidence. And some of that is filtering down to the younger generations, who apparently haven't been educated well enough to be able to resist the sophisticated PR campaign that is being used against them.

So the point is that it don't make a shit - conservatism or, really, any principles at all, have no place in the discourse for the target audience. It's all about tribe, fear, hatred, greed, and crushing perceived enemies. And of course when all else fails, the ace in the hole:

 

fin.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Bat Guano
Oxford comma

[seven 1367]

I can absolutely see how someone could misunderstand the original post. That's on me. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Do you even know the definition of socialism, I mean the Webster Definition......ARasofhsdfh!!!!!!1

I guess you hate roads and the post office.  MOran!!!!!!

 

/surlylibtard

Because a little socialism has worked, we should kill innovation and risk taking by further eroding their rewards by taxing the fuck out of achievers.

What a plan!

 Roads and the post office or your best examples?  Lolz  Thank you for making my case 

Edited October 26, 2018 by slorch

[Dbeasy 15042]

The left for as long as I can remember which goes back into the mid 80s for me have said the Republicans are controlled by the Christian right, hate the poor, racists, hate gays, hate education and only care about the rich. I am sure I left some of the other talking points out but that's the MO.  How is that different 30 yrs later from what I am hearing on this thread?  It's the same identity politics.  Just funny seeing it thrown up in such volume on Surly.

The CR definitely leans left. They do chase out opposing views. However, in my view the Republican Party of 20 or 30 years ago is very different from today’s party.

Three of the data points for me were: 1) the constant bashing of Obamacare, but when given the opportunity to propose something different or better they completely failed; 2) continuing to accelerate outrageous deficits; and 3) becoming too extreme on policies to help big business. They used to be sensible.

[Brisketexan 105079]

53 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

I don't think they're dead, I think they're intellectually and morally bankrupt. That is a competitive position in this country.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

Yep.  The GOP is FAR from dead.  It's a strong political movement (the party of Trump) in this country.  That's a shitty, shitty thing.  But that doesn't mean it's not strong.

It ain't strong with my KIDS, though.  They should be tailor-made GOP voters.  But seeing what they've seen in their politically formative years? The GOP would be wasting its time paying for a single social media ad targeted at them.

41 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

Poor triggered snowflake.

This board doesn't lean hard left. It leans hard anti-GOP bc of Trump and the party's total submission to him.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

This.  I love how the Trumpkins ignore the fact that there are numerous historically GOP voters on this board who are simply anti-party of Trump.  That doesn't make them (us) Bernie bros and whatnot.  The choice of the GOP to align itself 100% with Trumpism, and condemn any who oppose Trumpism as leftist commie socialists, is a choice of the GOP, and a fiction that exists only in the bizarre reality they've created for themselves.  That doesn't make it true.

12 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

The left for as long as I can remember which goes back into the mid 80s for me have said the Republicans are controlled by the Christian right, hate the poor, racists, hate gays, hate education and only care about the rich. I am sure I left some of the other talking points out but that's the MO.  How is that different 30 yrs later from what I am hearing on this thread?  It's the same identity politics.  Just funny seeing it thrown up in such volume on Surly.

I didn't.  Shit, I remember being at a social event in the early 90s, hosted by a quite liberal classmate of my wife.  Some of those folks laid those positions out for me, and we had a good discussion about how I, as a GOP voter -- and I was speaking for several of my peers as well -- didn't ascribe to any of those beliefs.  And I could, with a straight face, defend the GOP on that basis.  That was almost 30 years ago, though.  Back then, none of the GOP supporters I know wore t-shirts at televised rallies that looked like this:

5 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I bemoan the loss of the literate right

You and me both.  The fact that it's a fucking RALLYING cry for the GOP to say "I love the poorly educated," and the fact that the party has acted in a way so as to create a 65-29 margin of college-educated women in favor of Dems....that's just fucking sad.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

26 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

Look, it's impossible to understand what is the purposeful implication of what he wrote.  Seven is far left surly so the way that sentence is written it reads as if he's grouping all anti-tax folks with the racists.  I bemoan the loss of clear writing and spelling of the literate left.

Seven does nothing but lob lame ass insults.

[Biff Tannen 45665]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

Because a little socialism has worked, we should kill in ovation and risk taking by further eroding their rewards by taxing the fuck out of achievers.

What a plan!

 

Shit yeah, the achievers.

[Incredulity 11655]

1 minute ago, slorch said:

Because a little socialism has worked, we should kill innovation and risk taking by further eroding their rewards by taxing the fuck out of achievers.

What a plan!

 Roads and the post office or your best examples?  Lolz  Thank you for making my case 

It was parody.

hence, /surlylibtard.

[AtticusFinch 155]

5 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Give us some combo of Bush I economics + Bush 2 "compassionate conservatives" who actually wanted to give immigration reform a shot and maybe you can salvage something.

There was push back because the reform included amnesty.  I realize the GOP is portrayed as racist because they want people to check in at the border and have jobs and they dont want the few criminals that do come in to commit more crimes against Americans and they dont like the drugs and contraband crossing the border unchecked but that fact gets lost in the media and Democrat buzzword..racism.  I'm sure there are a few racists in the GOP just like there are a few racists in the Democrat party.  There are a lot of real problems at the border in regards to immigration but they cant ever get fixed because if any group is excluded or you try and limit certain groups you are called a racist.  It's not really racism anyway.  It's a class issue.  Nobody gives a shit if you let in "brown people" that are in finance or engineers, lawyers, doctors, scientists,  teachers, etc.  They benefit a society more than someone that is a laborer.  Letting uneducated poor people in that isolate themselves and collect government benefits on a stressed system and foster an underground economy and in turn send a lot of their money out of the country does not benefit a society as much as someone with a high paying job that pays a lot in taxes.  However, the poors do serve one valuable purpose...once they become citizens, they vote and once their children reach a certain age, they vote.  So for certain political ideologies,  it's the long game.  

[Brisketexan 105079]

1 minute ago, Dbeasy said:

 

The CR definitely leans left. They do chase out opposing views. However, in my view the Republican Party of 20 or 30 years ago is very different from today’s party.

Three of the data points for me were: 1) the constant bashing of Obamacare, but when given the opportunity to propose something different or better they completely failed; 2) continuing to accelerate outrageous deficits; and 3) becoming too extreme on policies to help big business. They used to be sensible.

 

Also excellent points.

The economic folly of the Party of Trump is what's truly flabbergasting.  The "Liberal" world order -- the thing that has created 75+ years of unprecedented global peace and prosperity, to the GREAT benefit of the USA, is the enemy now.  Free trade -- the enemy.  Working with our allies in mutually beneficial ways (as opposed to treating them as adversaries in a zero-sum game) -- the enemy.  Passing massive one-sided tax cuts for no good reason, creating a massive deficit in the process, and also removing a tool of fiscal stimulus that is good to have on hand in the event of the next downturn....breathtakingly dumb.  When the economists and wonks who used to be nearly 100% in line with the GOP's platform and actions are now the ones saying "WTF are these morons doing?", that tells us a lot.