CR Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting

[Nivek 16,913]

I never claimed it was nothing but deep intellectual chats, but high volume mindless posting was not as encouraged.  There is a difference between obstinate posters persisting despite resistance and spammers & garbage posters being praised and encouraged.  On the home page right now, the top two weekly "popular contributors" listed for the entire board are a guy who wished for the death of the children of another user this week and an SEC facebook mom.  Collectively, this place encourages mindless rhetoric.  

I noticed you keep leaving out the part where one poster was adamant about how he wanted to use the tools of racists within positions of power (attack dogs, fire hoses, and rubber bullets) and fantasized about shooting families seeking a new home. Oh, but hours later he recanted cause he prayed to his invisible friend.

 

Everyone with a functioning brain knew that BT was pissed off and with good reason. He wants those complicit in creating suffering to understand what they are doing and the impact it has first hand. Especially if they are doing it with glee, not just out of ignorance.

 

And while we are at it, me saying “I hope you die/cancer” doesn’t mean shit. It is a low form of communication but getting so bent out of shape demonstrates what snowflakes you and your ilk really are.

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Again I’m making the greatest hits list of posters supposedly ruining this once fine establishment.

I should be charging rent for the space I take in some of your snowflakey heads.

I’m less strident than a lot of my fellow leftists on this board but I always seem to get singled out.

Wonder why that is?

It’s almost like some of you get real bothered by a woman with strong opinions invading your little clubhouse.

Man up, pussies.

And I’m honored to be grouped in with Brisket. Some of y’all think he went too far - I don’t - but despite his fatalism, he’s smart and funny and he cares.

Give me 1,000 Briskets over the dullards screeching about librul tears and peeing their pants in fear over brown people.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

On my previous forum, I would get death wishes all the time.  I didn’t think it was a big deal until I got banned for it on Shaggy like a year ago.

[bolverk 29,639]

1 hour ago, Aphelion said:

I never claimed it was nothing but deep intellectual chats, but high volume mindless posting was not as encouraged.  There is a difference between obstinate posters persisting despite resistance and spammers & garbage posters being praised and encouraged.  On the home page right now, the top two weekly "popular contributors" listed for the entire board are a guy who wished for the death of the children of another user this week and an SEC facebook mom.  Collectively, this place encourages mindless rhetoric.  

 

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yes, we need more threads like this:

http://www.shaggytexas.com/board/showthread.php/131640-Hillary-s-toast

Just take one gander at the thread from the old CR that Hugo posted. This place is like the agora by comparison.

[workswithseed 2,079]

7 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I noticed you keep leaving out the part where one poster was adamant about how he wanted to use the tools of racists within positions of power (attack dogs, fire hoses, and rubber bullets) and fantasized about shooting families seeking a new home. Oh, but hours later he recanted cause he prayed to his invisible friend.

 

Everyone with a functioning brain knew that BT was pissed off and with good reason. He wants those complicit in creating suffering to understand what they are doing and the impact it has first hand. Especially if they are doing it with glee, not just out of ignorance.

 

And while we are at it, me saying “I hope you die/cancer” doesn’t mean shit. It is a low form of communication but getting so bent out of shape demonstrates what snowflakes you and your ilk really are.

Do you tell people to die when you get mad? Does saying IC said something bad, its okay that BT says something bad? 

Seems a lot more people are surprised that Brisket got in trouble than Ironclast, its probably cause he didn't say he would kill or hoped for their deaths. I mean Brisket said if Texas left the union he would shoot up people cause they were traitors even if it was legal. Does that mean Ironclast and Brisket are both bad people?

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,562]

Do the letters DIAF mean anything to you? I'm fine with recalibration or emphasing what is and is not acceptable on a private message board, but as some of us pointed out at the time, only to be lmao-ed by supporters of a certain presidential candidate, once you give the royal waft of the hand to explicit calls to physically attack those vocally oppossing you, the horse has left the barn.

 

 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I noticed you keep leaving out the part where one poster was adamant about how he wanted to use the tools of racists within positions of power (attack dogs, fire hoses, and rubber bullets) and fantasized about shooting families seeking a new home. Oh, but hours later he recanted cause he prayed to his invisible friend.

 

Everyone with a functioning brain knew that BT was pissed off and with good reason. He wants those complicit in creating suffering to understand what they are doing and the impact it has first hand. Especially if they are doing it with glee, not just out of ignorance.

 

And while we are at it, me saying “I hope you die/cancer” doesn’t mean shit. It is a low form of communication but getting so bent out of shape demonstrates what snowflakes you and your ilk really are.

My mistake.  I didn't realize that he had good reasons to wish for the death of children.   

 

18 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Again I’m making the greatest hits list of posters supposedly ruining this once fine establishment.

I should be charging rent for the space I take in some of your snowflakey heads.

I’m less strident than a lot of my fellow leftists on this board but I always seem to get singled out.

Wonder why that is?

It’s almost like some of you get real bothered by a woman with strong opinions invading your little clubhouse.

Man up, pussies.

And I’m honored to be grouped in with Brisket. Some of y’all think he went too far - I don’t - but despite his fatalism, he’s smart and funny and he cares.

Give me 1,000 Briskets over the dullards screeching about librul tears and peeing their pants in fear over brown people.

I've got nothing against you.  Your are just an example of someone who only posts here because your beliefs line up with the hive mind and you are encouraged accordingly.  

[Brisketexan 104,958]

Do you tell people to die when you get mad? Does saying IC said something bad, its okay that BT says something bad? 
Seems a lot more people are surprised that Brisket got in trouble than Ironclast, its probably cause he didn't say he would kill or hoped for their deaths. I mean Brisket said if Texas left the union he would shoot up people cause they were traitors even if it was legal. Does that mean Ironclast and Brisket are both bad people?

If you’re gonna quote me, do it accurately.

I said back then that if Texas seceded and took up arms against my country (you know, the first “A” in “MAGA”), I’d fight for my country. And it kinda goes with the territory - if I’m willing to fight for my country, that means I’d be willing to fight against those fighting against it.

There you have it, the wildly offensive and “unhinged” position of saying that if it came down to a fight, I’d fight for my county against those who betrayed it.

That’s what we’re “calling out” now. Seriously.

[wildcat09 29,327]

Obviously what we need is a deep intellectual discussion on the merits of betraying America in order to enact even more racist policies than the American electorate would tolerate.

[Bama Chick 28,596]

You don’t have any idea why I post here.

But keep using whatever you make up in your head as support for long winded and tedious arguments.

There’s nothing I hate more than self important windbags who love to be above it all.

If we’re so lowbrow, take your leave, chief.

[realgreggym 835]

11 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

I am glad that there is something we can agree on  If you delve into Messianic “Judaism” it gets more revolting at every turn. They call their churches “temples”, have Stars of David plastered on them, some wear yarmulkes and celebrate Jewish holidays. Completely fraudulent in every facet. If you believe in Christ’s divinity, resurrection and what that means you are a Christian. You can have great admiration and respect for Judaism as a Christian but trying to pass yourself off as one to attract more Jews is disgusting.

Good post.

[Celery Man 20,923]

It’s possible that at least some of the reason that there is not good and intellectually stimulating discussion from both sides flourishing in this forum is because there are no good and intellectually stimulating arguments to support Trump and his party, which is one of the two parties that currently exist in any meaningful form.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

7 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

It’s possible that at least some of the reason that there is not good and intellectually stimulating discussion from both sides flourishing in this forum is because there are no good and intellectually stimulating arguments to support Trump and his party, which is one of the two parties that currently exist in any meaningful form.

Exactly. The guy is a bought and paid for Russian owned mobster who somehow conned his way into becoming president. Hell he didn’t think it would ever happen.

You file bankruptcy 7 times legitimate banks wont ever lend to you. Anyone, even trumpkins, should be able to figure that out. Yet somehow trump stays afloat somehow. Hmm. Wonder how. Guys who will get paid back no matter what they lend, that’s how, i.e. mobsters. They completely own trump and now they own a guy in charge of our country. Yet dumbshit trumpkins don’t see it because they hated black obama and still believe Trump’s theory that he was born in Africa like all the other blacks. 

America today is being run by a criminal enterprise being controlled by an even more ruthless evil criminal foreign enterprise. Trumpkins will someday regret their ignorance of this fact, but it may take a little while. November 6 is the start. 

[workswithseed 2,079]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

If you’re gonna quote me, do it accurately.

I said back then that if Texas seceded and took up arms against my country (you know, the first “A” in “MAGA”), I’d fight for my country. And it kinda goes with the territory - if I’m willing to fight for my country, that means I’d be willing to fight against those fighting against it.

There you have it, the wildly offensive and “unhinged” position of saying that if it came down to a fight, I’d fight for my county against those who betrayed it.

That’s what we’re “calling out” now. Seriously.

I actually was looking for that post and can't find it with the OS's search function, and don't have time to go through those threads. I remember being taken aback cause I would have agreed with you if it was like that. Since I have no proof, ill have to agree with. 

[Mole 4,328]

29 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

It’s possible that at least some of the reason that there is not good and intellectually stimulating discussion from both sides flourishing in this forum is because there are no good and intellectually stimulating arguments to support Trump and his party, which is one of the two parties that currently exist in any meaningful form.

Agreed, but a few points:

1. As terrible as Trump is, he's not as bad as portrayed on the Trump thread. His terribleness isn't dealt with honestly here. Instead, it's a self-perpetuating cycle of rage even over things that don't warrant that rage. That's NOT a defense of Trump. He's terrible and represents an existential crisis for our country, but a lot of the things that thread rages over aren't honest representations of what he's saying or doing.

2. Not everything is a zero-sum game. Even the most tepid defenses of things tangentially pro-Trump can get lumped with the worst of Trumpism. You can't have an honest discussion if there's the constant roar of rage (much of which is justified, but much of which isn't). Everything has become a constant choosing of sides; are you pro-Trump or anti-Trump? There's no place to have any meaningful discussion. It's the culture war on steroids.

3. Both sides, here at least. There's a ton of trolling and intellectual dishonesty from ideologues on both sides here. The zero-sum team nature of things combined with the anti-Trump rage leads most of the board to look past the left-wing trolling that goes on. Remember, there were genuine arguments here that Brisket's outburst wasn't directed at a real scat posting person but rather some kind of Jungian duality metaphorical man that isn't real. Or maybe it was towards some sort of lesser human which makes it ok. Also, we saw another thread use the phrase "vandalism by gun" without a hint of irony.

4. There are multiple reasons people come here to discuss politics. Anymore most seem to come to vent their rage or troll, but it's possible even with the chaos of today to discuss what's going on in a meaningful way. Nothing anyone writes here will make Trump change or go away, yet most of what's written seems to have that as a quixotic goal. Everything comes back to the evils of Trumpism so nothing else matters; it's the ultimate trump card. How could we be concerned about these other lesser things at a time like this with Trump egging on a civil war, running concentration camps, etc? 

[cactusflinthead 27,597]

 

link through to footage

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,764]

14 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

We're going to need a Jewling on this.  Born a Jew, start following Yeshua --> Ivanka in reverse.

Ivanka does NOT have Jewbies.  Ergo, Jews for Jesii have Jewbies.

Fake Jewbs!

[cactusflinthead 27,597]

6 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

You don’t have any idea why I post here.

But keep using whatever you make up in your head as support for long winded and tedious arguments.

There’s nothing I hate more than self important windbags who love to be above it all.

If we’re so lowbrow, take your leave, chief.

He can't quit you. 

[HenryJames 65,978]

9 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Whatever, go look at the threads on Shaggy from 2012-2014 and tell me how awesome the good old days were. 

He was too busy being concerned about the deficit to notice.

[cactusflinthead 27,597]

 

Quote

 

We do not know Bowers’ views on Charles Darwin or Shoeless Joe Jackson, but we do know his views on Jews matched those of Ford and the KKK. Among his posts on social media, Bowers denounced Jews as the “children of Satan” and declared below a doctored photo of Auschwitz that “Lies Make Money.” Shortly before grabbing the AR-15 from the arsenal of 21 guns registered under his name, we also know Bowers posted his intentions: “I can’t sit by and watch my people get slaughtered.”

 

But we know more than this. Bowers’s worldview, reflecting the worldview of The International Jew and the Protocols, reveals that anti-Semitism, like the plague bacillus, sleeps but never dies. We also know that the spirit of the KKK, though a shadow of its former self, hovered over the white supremacists participating in last year’s fatal march in Charlottesville.

 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/article/Anti-Semitism-hasn-t-gone-away-in-the-United-13350011.php

Very.Fine.People.

[HenryJames 65,978]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28,764]

8 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

I wasn’t here for these glory days some are pining for but it’s WAY easier to post a tweet with a simple copy and paste than to link and paste the text of an article - especially for fast moving/breaking news stories.

And especially on Tapa.

And I’m sorry, if the freaking president uses Twitter as his default press secretary, then it’s good enough for a message board.

This place would be horrible if everyone posted long winded essays of 5,000 words when they can get the message across in 1/16th of that.

Yeah, but the ease of copying and pasting a Twitter link leads to the posting of a lot more trivial and/or irrelevant material that wouldn't have been posted before. Sometimes the tweet amounts to nothing more than a link to an article. If someone is posting a tweet linking to the article, presumably they read the article and it would be just as easy to copy and paste the link directly to the article. 

[Captainant 27,598]

It's interesting that the right wing apologists and pearl clutchers are overlooking that brisket was being trolled and antagonized on the same day as a synagogue being shot up, a place of worship he associates with. Making death threats is never acceptable, but y'all are completely overlooking that TJ was in a reaction thread mere hours after the terrorist attack, calling everyone a soy boy and effeminate. 

Now, if a christian church was shot up, would y'all be as ok with a bunch of lunatic left wingers shouting epithets at you? Do you think you may overreact in the moment? Because behavior like TJ's in that thread is exactly what happens every time there is a public discussion on politics. The fucking red hats can't keep their powder dry even when there's an anti-Semitic terrorist attack. 

Go eat a bag of dicks and die in a fire if you think brisket was the problem in that thread

Edited October 31, 2018 by Captainant

[cactusflinthead 27,597]

I much prefer the ease of a quick post. When shit is happening fast I would rather go back and apologize for a mistake than to miss out on a breaking story. Fact check? What the hell is that? When our president lies without the least bit of conscience and has spent his entire life gaslighting everyone around him up to and including his lawyers to the extent that they will not meet with him alone I can afford a few miscues. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,764]

14 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

I much prefer the ease of a quick post. When shit is happening fast I would rather go back and apologize for a mistake than to miss out on a breaking story. Fact check? What the hell is that? When our president lies without the least bit of conscience and has spent his entire life gaslighting everyone around him up to and including his lawyers to the extent that they will not meet with him alone I can afford a few miscues. 

If that's the consensus then we need to be a lot more forgiving of the media when, in their rush to get out the story, they occasionally get it wrong. 

[cactusflinthead 27,597]

12 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

If that's the consensus then we need to be a lot more forgiving of the media when, in their rush to get out the story, they occasionally get it wrong. 

Corrrecto.That's the problem with breaking news. Conflicting reports in the heat of the moment means there will be mistakes. Issue a correction and move along. Continuing to tell the same lie over and over again and even when confronted with the facts of the matter, dismissing it as Fake News and presenting your own Alternative Facts is the problem.

If we were hardcore about citations here as they are at the Great Orange Satan there would be no long full articles. Two paragraphs and a link, that's it. It's fairer to the actual presenter of the story if you go to their site and they get the hits. 

 

edit: I have seen posts get pulled at dailykos (Great Orange Satan) for that very reason, posting full articles. Fair Use allows you two paragraphs and a link. No shit they have gotten letters demanding it. They do not fuck around.

Edited October 31, 2018 by cactusflinthead

[bad_teammate 13,184]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Yeah, but the ease of copying and pasting a Twitter link leads to the posting of a lot more trivial and/or irrelevant material that wouldn't have been posted before.

FWD: FWD: FWD: FWD: WRONG.GIF*

(* - Disposable, trivial, low-effort, and irrelevant messaging wasn't invented or even exacerbated by Twitter or the ability to post GIFs. Shaggy wasn't some Algonquin Round Table and Internet discussions have always been dominated by disposable, trivial, low-effort, and irrelevant messaging (as those who get the "FWD: FWD: FWD:" joke will recall).)

[Huckleberry 32,830]

11 hours ago, Aphelion said:

Following up with this:  I was traveling the past several days with limited connection, so I didn't have time to read and write much.  I saw that brisket made yet another post wishing harm on users here, this time wishing for the violent deaths of poster's family members.  Now I see that he stuck with his wishes of harm for several pages and only apologized when several reasonable (and normally sympathetic to brisket) posters chimed in and told him he has become a violent lunatic, exactly like those he claims to despise.  So he apologized (but mostly just defended himself) only under public pressure from forum allies and then used the opportunity to give another one of his blog style sermons that got lots of praise in Trump rally fashion.  Maybe I missed it, but you didn't seem to take issue with any of this, but you did take the time to object to the style in which I choose to mock what a joke of a poster he has become and how pathetic this place is for praising his manic drivel.  

Brisket is a clown; he is an adult version of a pre-teen squeaker screeching that he fucked your mom when things don't go his way.  But he is only one poster and really he is just a symptom of a more general problem with the forum and not the cause of it.  This forum is overran with mindless twitter spammers, facebook quality posters, and several dozen interchangeable posters who provide nothing more than facsimiles of a narrow set of political talking points.  In times past these types of posters would not have fared as well among this group, but now they thrive here. There is very little original thought and content worth reading as the good posters who provide content worth reading post less and less.  There are a few things that could be done to address these problems, but none of these things are going to be done so I won't waste time enumerating them.  What is odd to me is that an otherwise quality poster such as yourself doesn't seem all that bothered by any of this; in fact, this place seems to suit you.  Correct me if I am wrong.  

You are wrong.

I just got finished on another thread complaining about someone turning a reasonable discussion into a joke. My issue with your post was with the method of saying the same thing a half dozen times in a single paragraph. That is quite literally how Brisketexan started down the path that leads to where he is now. I don't have any issue with long fleshed out posts that discuss actual ideas, and you're correct that this forum sucks for the most part. But your post didn't help that situation at all, do you think? You didn't post a logical dissection of Brisketexan's behavior and its negative effects, you posted a mocking jab that only perpetuates the cycle.

[wildcat09 29,327]

6 hours ago, Mole said:

Agreed, but a few points:

1. As terrible as Trump is, he's not as bad as portrayed on the Trump thread. His terribleness isn't dealt with honestly here. Instead, it's a self-perpetuating cycle of rage even over things that don't warrant that rage. That's NOT a defense of Trump. He's terrible and represents an existential crisis for our country, but a lot of the things that thread rages over aren't honest representations of what he's saying or doing.

2. Not everything is a zero-sum game. Even the most tepid defenses of things tangentially pro-Trump can get lumped with the worst of Trumpism. You can't have an honest discussion if there's the constant roar of rage (much of which is justified, but much of which isn't). Everything has become a constant choosing of sides; are you pro-Trump or anti-Trump? There's no place to have any meaningful discussion. It's the culture war on steroids.

3. Both sides, here at least. There's a ton of trolling and intellectual dishonesty from ideologues on both sides here. The zero-sum team nature of things combined with the anti-Trump rage leads most of the board to look past the left-wing trolling that goes on. Remember, there were genuine arguments here that Brisket's outburst wasn't directed at a real scat posting person but rather some kind of Jungian duality metaphorical man that isn't real. Or maybe it was towards some sort of lesser human which makes it ok. Also, we saw another thread use the phrase "vandalism by gun" without a hint of irony.

4. There are multiple reasons people come here to discuss politics. Anymore most seem to come to vent their rage or troll, but it's possible even with the chaos of today to discuss what's going on in a meaningful way. Nothing anyone writes here will make Trump change or go away, yet most of what's written seems to have that as a quixotic goal. Everything comes back to the evils of Trumpism so nothing else matters; it's the ultimate trump card. How could we be concerned about these other lesser things at a time like this with Trump egging on a civil war, running concentration camps, etc? 

*11 people are murdered in a synagogue by a white supremacist*

You, a smart person: “both sides caused this problem. I think what really needs more focus is the fact that a liberal doesn’t think someone breaking a GOP office’s window is as bad as a white supremacist committing mass murder.”

[HenryJames 65,978]

9 hours ago, lemonlime said:

Laughing my ass off.  The fake evangelical rabbi wasn't even a rabbi, fake or not.

 

#fakejews

[cactusflinthead 27,597]

10 hours ago, lemonlime said:

Laughing my ass off.  The fake evangelical rabbi wasn't even a rabbi, fake or not.

 

But wait there's more! It couldn't have anything to do with an election coming up in six days could it? No way! Gotta keep those highly ethical evangelical voters happy!

 

 

Quote

 

Attempts to cloak Christianity in Jewish garb or co-opt Jewish language and rituals are typically seen as efforts to convert Jewish people. Jacobs’ personal view that Jews who do not accept Jesus as their savior do not go to heaven may well mean that he views proselytizing to the Jews as a theological obligation.

As a result, Jacobs’ appearance at a rally alongside Pence and the vice president’s designation of him as a “leader in the Jewish community” a mere two days after the worst massacre of Jews in American history was upsetting to many American Jews. Some of them voiced their displeasure on social media.

 

Quote

Pence was not the one who invited Jacobs to the event, the vice president’s office said. That was Lena Epstein, a Jewish Republican candidate in the hotly contested race for Michigan’s 11th Congressional District, according to Pence’s staff.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by cactusflinthead

[Mole 4,328]

29 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

*11 people are murdered in a synagogue by a white supremacist*

You, a smart person: “both sides caused this problem. I think what really needs more focus is the fact that a liberal doesn’t think someone breaking a GOP office’s window is as bad as a white supremacist committing mass murder.”

That’s not an accurate reflection of what I said though. Your post is an embodiment of the cultural problem in the new cloak room: remove context, misstate the meaning, falsely claim false equivalency, and revert back to zero sum thinking.

Terrorism like we saw last week is horrifying and one of the worst things to happen in this country in a long time. That the terrorist was driven by conspiracy theories that have been egged in by the president makes it all the worse. In a healthy society Trumpism would be doing quite a bit of introspection. Obviously that isn’t happening. That doesn’t make other violence such as shooting up a building and fortunately not killing anyone somehow understandable or as trivial as vandalism by gun. I also wouldn’t call referencing such political violence that just happened any kind of whataboutism. It just happened. It’s the both sides trap.

In the wake of the both sides tiki torch parade there was an understandable madness that crept into shaggy. If a post wasn’t sufficiently angry about the events, it was seen as pro-Nazi. Lots of people were called Nazis for very flimsy reasons such as distaste for the antifa movement. The same kind of madness has returned. I understand why it comes up, but that doesn’t make it healthy or sane.

The right is fundamentally broken right now. That doesn’t mean that all opposition to the right is healthy, moral, ethical, or just. It also doesn’t mean that any pushback against the left wing rage is an endorsement of the ideologies we saw last week.

[wildcat09 29,327]

3 minutes ago, Mole said:

That’s not an accurate reflection of what I said though. Your post is an embodiment of the cultural problem in the new cloak room: remove context, misstate the meaning, falsely claim false equivalency, and revert back to zero sum thinking.

Terrorism like we saw last week is horrifying and one of the worst things to happen in this country in a long time. That the terrorist was driven by conspiracy theories that have been egged in by the president makes it all the worse. In a healthy society Trumpism would be doing quite a bit of introspection. Obviously that isn’t happening. That doesn’t make other violence such as shooting up a building and fortunately not killing anyone somehow understandable or as trivial as vandalism by gun. I also wouldn’t call referencing such political violence that just happened any kind of whataboutism. It just happened. It’s the both sides trap.

In the wake of the both sides tiki torch parade there was an understandable madness that crept into shaggy. If a post wasn’t sufficiently angry about the events, it was seen as pro-Nazi. Lots of people were called Nazis for very flimsy reasons such as distaste for the antifa movement. The same kind of madness has returned. I understand why it comes up, but that doesn’t make it healthy or sane.

 The right is fundamentally broken right now. That doesn’t mean that all opposition to the right is healthy, moral, ethical, or just. It also doesn’t mean that any pushback against the left wing rage is an endorsement of the ideologies we saw last week.

When someone spends thousands of words complaining about the left breaking windows and being mean to the right and a dozen complaining about the right committing mass murder, it tends to indicate where their priorities lie.

Edited October 31, 2018 by wildcat09

[Brisketexan 104,958]

6 minutes ago, Mole said:

The right is fundamentally broken right now. That doesn’t mean that all opposition to the right is healthy, moral, ethical, or just. It also doesn’t mean that any pushback against the left wing rage is an endorsement of the ideologies we saw last week.

This point is correct on all counts.  But your previous post noted, correctly, how the current Trumpist incarnation of the right isn't just "broken," it's an existential threat.

We -- the Shining City on a Hill -- have faced other existential threats on the right before.  And we didn't necessarily endorse all ideologies that pushed back against the threat from the right.  In fact, we deeply opposed some of those ideologies.

But we still sent THIS guy a metric shitton of aid, weapons, etc.:

Yeah, Godwin's law and all that.  But it's nigh on impossible to discuss any "positive" that Trump stumbles into when he - oh come on, do we need to re-list the parade of absurd horribles yet again?  I'm sorry, I don't care if Trump takes a super-strong stand in favor of my pet issue (cobbler should ALWAYS be served warm, and WITH ice cream -- ice cream is not an add-on, it's part of the dish), he's irredeemable.  And yes, there are not meaningful defenses offered for his behavior - it's different flavors of "look, I wish he'd tone down the rhetoric, but my 401k looks good."  Only now, since our 401ks don't look much better than when he started, we see that these defenses aren't even real.  They're just excuses, because many people have enough sense to avoid saying publicly "look, I LOVE a xenophobic dog-whistler!"

So, to my analogy....did we excuse Stalinism?  Did we admire it?  Did we even LIKE the Soviets?  Nope.  But we sure as shit wanted them to whip the Nazis' asses at Kursk.  Because fuck ethno-nationalist fuckers.

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

10 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

On my previous forum, I would get death wishes all the time.  I didn’t think it was a big deal until I got banned for it on Shaggy like a year ago.

"Die in a fire" was a common statement on shaggy.  And it was often heartfelt. 

Its kind of a microcosm of America that Brisket gets banned after snapping at someone who was trolling him heavily, and Iconoclast gets to stick around in spite of him truly wanting to shoot migrant women and children with rubber bullets. The opposition gets 0 margin for error while the fascists and trolls have no boundaries they aren't allowed to break. 

[cactusflinthead 27,597]

This could go in either the Elections Thread or this one, but since it directly pertains to the fake fake rabbi I'll put it here. Expect more to come out about this. But, do not expect any apologies from her. Do yourself the favor and click through to the pix, I'll be disappointed if someone doesn't post them here.

Quote

 

So what is the deal with Epstein? Is she a nice Jewish girl from suburban Detroit who is actually a secret or well … not so secret alt-righter or a congregant at a Reform Temple who’s secretly part of “Jews for Jesus”?

Having read up on the coverage of her campaign and spoken to sources who know the local community and Epstein herself well this still remains something of a mystery to me. The image of Epstein I gleaned from all these sources is one of a candidate who mixes naivete, indifference and entitlement, makes snap decisions based on the friend of the moment and then doubles and triples down on the snap decisions. (In other words, she’s a bit like Trump.) Some sources with knowledge of the situation tell me they think Jacobs started showing up at Epstein events, told her she was awesome and became her new best friend without her really realizing who he was. That led to the invite to the Pence event. Others don’t find that credible. They think somehow Epstein convinced herself this made political or ethical sense much as she did when she courted Ted Nugent and Steve Bannon and liked tweets by David Duke.

 

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/never-go-full-trump-the-lena-epstein-story

[G650 14,216]

45 minutes ago, Mole said:

That’s not an accurate reflection of what I said though. Your post is an embodiment of the cultural problem in the new cloak room: remove context, misstate the meaning, falsely claim false equivalency, and revert back to zero sum thinking.

Terrorism like we saw last week is horrifying and one of the worst things to happen in this country in a long time. That the terrorist was driven by conspiracy theories that have been egged in by the president makes it all the worse. In a healthy society Trumpism would be doing quite a bit of introspection. Obviously that isn’t happening. That doesn’t make other violence such as shooting up a building and fortunately not killing anyone somehow understandable or as trivial as vandalism by gun. I also wouldn’t call referencing such political violence that just happened any kind of whataboutism. It just happened. It’s the both sides trap.

In the wake of the both sides tiki torch parade there was an understandable madness that crept into shaggy. If a post wasn’t sufficiently angry about the events, it was seen as pro-Nazi. Lots of people were called Nazis for very flimsy reasons such as distaste for the antifa movement. The same kind of madness has returned. I understand why it comes up, but that doesn’t make it healthy or sane.

The right is fundamentally broken right now. That doesn’t mean that all opposition to the right is healthy, moral, ethical, or just. It also doesn’t mean that any pushback against the left wing rage is an endorsement of the ideologies we saw last week.

 

Good post.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

You are wrong.

Fair enough.

I'll tell you a bit about my time and interaction with the online community of longhorn message boards, which I think is typical for many of us.  I've posted on several Texas boards going back to 2005 and I lurked before that.  I've met several good friends from interactions on these forums, I've got private correspondence with many others, and I've requested and received help even from ideological opponents with nothing requested or accepted in return, and I've tried to do the same when asked.  I know all sorts of personal details about people I've never met, even ideological opponents that I've clashed with, but in some limited sense I feel like I know them from all of our interactions and from the stories they post.*  

To me the community is not about this particular message board nor is it limited to posts on the internet.  It existed long before surly (and long before I came around) and will continue on long after it is gone.  This particular board is now inundated with a new crop of posters that have nothing to do with this broader community, and they produce the majority of the posts here that contain nothing worth reading.  They also like to tell long time members of the broader community to fuck off if they do not fall lock step in line with the hive.  They are tolerated by many merely because their narrow rhetoric is more or less in line with how other members view the world.  What is going to happen and in fact is already happening is that long time members of the community who post thoughts that are worth reading will stop coming to this particular online bar.   If the tables were turned and the board was flooded with interchangeable spammers copy and pasting right wing rhetoric, telling you and the other long time quality progressive posters to fuck off and generally wished you harm, I would not abide it.  In those circumstances I would suggest that we either need to find a way effectively reduce the infestation, or go find another online bar to congregate at.  

 

Spoiler

*For example:

I know that you have a daughter that has a serious medical condition that requires that you live near the TMC and that this has had a significant impact on your life; I know that you have a talent for mathematics and are really good with sports stats.  I know that BrickHorn has two sons that love wrestling and at this point I can give almost verbatim the detailed arguments he would give for several philosophical positions.  I know that Brisket has a wife who is a trained minister, a daughter that is a good student and at one point considered attending an elite magnet school (she also likes to shoot guns, but not pink ones, and hates Trump), and he's got a son who owns a cat he loves that almost got eaten by a coyote that climbed a spiral staircase.  As a side note, the fact that he used to be a good poster and seems like a good man in real life is why it is so perplexing and frustrating that he now posts such insane hateful rhetoric.  These are just a few things I know from the ideological opponents that I've clashed with and that I've never met (all of these details they said on public forums that I recalled from memory; it is not my intent to disclose anything private).  I know many other things about dozens of posters here, some from public discussion and many more facts from private discussion, and I could go on and on but I think you get the point.  Again, I think the above is typical for many of us and is no way intended to imply I am somehow a special member of the community.

 

[Huckleberry 32,830]

1 minute ago, Aphelion said:

To me the community is not about this particular message board nor is it limited to posts on the internet.  It existed long before surly (and long before I came around) and will continue on long after it is gone.  This particular board is now inundated with a new crop of posters that have nothing to do with this broader community, and they produce the majority of the posts here that contain nothing worth reading.  They also like to tell long time members of the broader community to fuck off if they do not fall lock step in line with the hive.  They are tolerated by many merely because their narrow rhetoric is more or less in line with how other members view the world.  What is going to happen and in fact is already happening is that long time members of the community who post thoughts that are worth reading will stop coming to this particular online bar.   If the tables were turned and the board was flooded with interchangeable spammers copy and pasting right wing rhetoric, telling you and the other long time quality progressive posters to fuck off and generally wished you harm, I would not abide it.  In those circumstances I would suggest that we either need to find a way effectively reduce the infestation, or go find another online bar to congregate at.

I agree with you about a lot of this, but you are allowing your personal biases to color your perceptions right now. The right-wing posters do indeed tell the left-wing posters to fuck off, and they have for nearly two decades now. The issue is that the left-wing posters have grown in number and "courage" (in quotes because it's obviously not actual courage) by the current political climate. You notice them more because you disagree with them more. They do indeed outnumber right-wing posts right now, and that's because Donald Trump is President.

Do you truly not remember the idiocy from the right during Obama's administration? I don't believe that.

[Dahobbs 17,515]

5 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Do you truly not remember the idiocy from the right during Obama's administration? I don't believe that.

I believe it. This is the same guy that posted a sermonizing angry rant chastising Brisket for posting sermonizing angry rants.  The difference being that behind Brisket's rants are actual intelligence and contemplation of nuance. All I see behind Aphelion's rants is self-important pontification. Maybe I'm wrong. But I doubt it. 

[wildcat09 29,327]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

I believe it. This is the same guy that posted a sermonizing angry rant chastising Brisket for posting sermonizing angry rants.  The difference being that behind Brisket's rants are actual intelligence and contemplation of nuance. All I see behind Aphelion's rants is self-important pontification. Maybe I'm wrong. But I doubt it. 

You're not wrong.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I agree with you about a lot of this, but you are allowing your personal biases to color your perceptions right now. The right-wing posters do indeed tell the left-wing posters to fuck off, and they have for nearly two decades now. The issue is that the left-wing posters have grown in number and "courage" (in quotes because it's obviously not actual courage) by the current political climate. You notice them more because you disagree with them more. They do indeed outnumber right-wing posts right now, and that's because Donald Trump is President.

Do you truly not remember the idiocy from the right during Obama's administration? I don't believe that.

I don't really care about whether a poster is right wing or left wing nor the ratio of the two collective groups.  In fact, I would much prefer to read the views of the thoughtful progressive posters vs the conservative ones.   It is a matter of thoughtful content and legitimate attempt at contribution (or at least a ratio of this to spam, which has become increasingly lopsided in favor of spam).   

[jimmyjazz 45,851]

I'm pretty sure a whole lot of the new "left wing" will cease voting for Dems if the 'pubs ever get their shit together and stop nominating guys like Donald Trump.

I don't know how likely it is that the 'pubs will actually get their shit together, but there's a difference between a lifelong left-leaner (like me) and somebody who supports traditional conservative values but currently sees the crisis we face, and is thus taking bold steps to try to stem the tide.

I know for a fact that many of the more active Surlies who are currently distressed by this administration are actually in the latter group.  I think it's encouraging.

[Dahobbs 17,515]

2 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

I don't really care about whether a poster is right wing or left wing nor the ratio of the two collective groups.  In fact, I would much prefer to read the views of the thoughtful progressive posters vs the conservative ones.   It is a matter of thoughtful content and legitimate attempt at contribution (or at least a ratio of this to spam, which has become increasingly lopsided in favor of spam).   

Brisket basically defines thoughtful content on this board. He is overly repetitive with his sky-is-falling schtick, but I'm also not sure he is wrong. No one believed Cassandra either. If you prefer the "thoughtful content" of the old board dominated by EpiQuinn, Swam, and the like over Brisket, well then I know you're not capable of providing it. 

[Huckleberry 32,830]

10 minutes ago, Aphelion said:

I don't really care about whether a poster is right wing or left wing nor the ratio of the two collective groups.  In fact, I would much prefer to read the views of the thoughtful progressive posters vs the conservative ones.   It is a matter of thoughtful content and legitimate attempt at contribution (or at least a ratio of this to spam, which has become increasingly lopsided in favor of spam).   

You keep claiming that and yet your complaints are almost entirely about the hive mentality that you view coming from the left side of the proverbial aisle. I don't recall ever seeing you complain about the spam and attacks coming from the right on shaggy. You have a nostalgic view of the past that doesn't match reality, and the only difference is the side of the aisle that more of the crap is coming from.

Tell me where all the intellectual discussion was in this thread from the same point in the Obama administration:

http://www.shaggytexas.com/board/showthread.php/76134-Election-night-returns-game-thread/page3

Edited October 31, 2018 by Huckleberry
forgot to quote

[bolverk 29,639]

23 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Brisket basically defines thoughtful content on this board. He is overly repetitive with his sky-is-falling schtick, but I'm also not sure he is wrong. No one believed Cassandra either. If you prefer the "thoughtful content" of the old board dominated by EpiQuinn, Swam, and the like over Brisket, well then I know you're not capable of providing it. 

You forgot foaming at the mouth ClearLake who wouldn't wish death on a single poster but instead on a whole class of people/posters. God, that guy was a beating.

Edit: So as to not disappoint @cactusflinthead

Edited October 31, 2018 by bolverk

[Bat Guano 359]

I think a large part of what y'all are banging on about the last couple of pages boils down to a question of persuasion. There are a large number of thoughtful, intelligent posters here, originating from both sides of the aisle, who are completely appalled - in my view rightfully - by the Trump faction. There are a few obvious Trump supporters, and a few other posters who claim to be above it all and that they don't support either side, but always seem to argue either in favor of the Trumpist position or against the anti-Trumpist position. Those in the latter two categories are, apparently, immune to persuasion - any combination of facts, logic, appeals to humanity, aversion to being lied to continuously, or simple common sense rolls right off, and the retort is a Trumpish collection of fact-free mocking and name-calling.

This understandably leads to some frustration, and that came out in the Brisket post under discussion. How do you get through to people when facts, logic, appeals to humanity, and common sense don't work? You might be tempted to resort to a mirror of the arguments that apparently sway these people: shocking personal attacks that target the emotional lizard brain. Make them think about how they would feel if the policies they advocate were directed against them; they don't get it any other way, so paint a picture of them or their loved ones bleeding out from a madman's fusillade of bullets. Maybe Brisket's post connected on this level; it certainly seems to have struck a nerve. It's a shame that that's the only way to construct an effective argument these days, but I guess some of us follow the thought leaders of our tribe, and the top-down rhetoric of the Trump side has become disturbingly pervasive.

tl/dr: maybe fire is the only way to fight fire.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Bat Guano

[cactusflinthead 27,597]

#winning

[bolverk 29,639]

8 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

#winning

That kook sure knows how to motherfuckin' MAGA.

[cactusflinthead 27,597]

10 minutes ago, bolverk said:

That kook sure knows how to motherfuckin' MAGA.

I saw that story and it was like a shot of the purest political junk ever. The pic pushes it to 11