CR Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting

[Celery Man 20943]

10 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Peace offer is accepted. 

 

[realgreggym 835]

45 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I bet Alan Dershowitz is regretting some of his previous statements supporting trump tonight. He’s smart enough to know that trump’s rhetoric on the caravan mob full of mooslems played at least a part in this tragedy. Trump has supported Israel unconditionally which Dershowitz supports but there is a cost when you lie down with dogs. Shit becomes real when 11 innocent people die for no good reason. 

This is beyond retarded even for you. Dershowitz voted for Hillary and has said time and time again that he doesn't support trump. What he is saying that there should be no special counsel investigation because its unconstitutional and the same with impeachment. He also recognizes that if this crap continues, one day the situation will be reversed and the repubs will do the same to the dems. This opinion has nothing to do with his support of Trump and as far as Israel is concerned, Dershowitz has supported Israel long before he even knew who Trump was. 

[Foosters 17856]

2 minutes ago, realgreggym said:

53 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I bet Alan Dershowitz is regretting some of his previous statements supporting trump tonight. He’s smart enough to know that trump’s rhetoric on the caravan mob full of mooslems played at least a part in this tragedy. Trump has supported Israel unconditionally which Dershowitz supports but there is a cost when you lie down with dogs. Shit becomes real when 11 innocent people die for no good reason. 

This is beyond retarded even for you. Dershowitz voted for Hillary and has said time and time again that he doesn't support trump. What he is saying that there should be no special counsel investigation because its unconstitutional and the same with impeachment. He also recognizes that if this crap continues, one day the situation will be reversed and the repubs will do the same to the dems. This opinion has nothing to do with his support of Trump and as far as Israel is concerned, Dershowitz has supported Israel long before he even knew who Trump was. 

Oh, really? One day the GOP is going to get a special counsel to investigate a Dem president and try and dig up everything they can to impeach him? 

 

[hobbes2702 13033]

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

Oh, really? One day the GOP is going to get a special counsel to investigate a Dem president and try and dig up everything they can to impeach him? 

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, realgreggym said:

53 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

I bet Alan Dershowitz is regretting some of his previous statements supporting trump tonight. He’s smart enough to know that trump’s rhetoric on the caravan mob full of mooslems played at least a part in this tragedy. Trump has supported Israel unconditionally which Dershowitz supports but there is a cost when you lie down with dogs. Shit becomes real when 11 innocent people die for no good reason. 

This is beyond retarded even for you. Dershowitz voted for Hillary and has said time and time again that he doesn't support trump. What he is saying that there should be no special counsel investigation because its unconstitutional and the same with impeachment. He also recognizes that if this crap continues, one day the situation will be reversed and the repubs will do the same to the dems. This opinion has nothing to do with his support of Trump and as far as Israel is concerned, Dershowitz has supported Israel long before he even knew who Trump was. 

If Dershowitz voted for Hillary I guess i wouldn’t be that surprised but you got a link for that?

Anyway he’s spoken out for Trump because there is no doubt that Trump has been the biggest supporter of Israel in American presidential history, which I disagree with because I think the American president should put American interests above those before Israel, but that’s another debate entirely. 

What I am saying is that when you speak out in favor of scum like trump sometimes there are consequences and this latest tragedy is one of them. Trump called out the migrant caravan for blatant political purposes, falsely claiming there were mooslems in it. This deranged lunatic anti Semite believed him when he said there were mooslems coming and with what he believed to be Jewish support (even though he believed trump wasn’t supporting that part) was endangering the country with their Jewish ways. Trump has blood on his hands for incitement for political purposes and Dershowitz knows it. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/caravan-lie-sparked-massacre-american-jews/574213/

Read this trolls. 

[Bama Chick 28596]

Ughhhhhh

This world is robbed of so many amazing people because of assholes with guns.

[Goredho 17402]

On 10/27/2018 at 5:17 PM, Iconoclast Texan said:

Right we should welcome 5,000 invaders waving the flag of Honduras and burning our flag. Fuck the caravan. I would volunteer to disperse it. Give me a fire hose, dogs and a rifle with rubber bullets.

Okay, but you get one rubber bullet.

[HenryJames 66048]

 

[Brisketexan 105121]

Okay, I took my timeout.  And I apologize for the tone and messaging of my offending post.  Maybe A Coordinator often is a wiser man than I, and his suggestion that I should have used the opening phrase of “imagine” before describing the scene that I did would have been the better route.  And he’s right.  And, I shouldn’t bite so hard on a troll’s trollgame.  My bad.  And apologies to the mods for making their Sunday a pain in the ass.  I was a tad raw.  Because, as noted by a few folks (appreciate the thinking, by the way), here’s how I’m processing last week:

1) Since the beginning, I’ve said that the most dangerous thing about Trump is his rhetoric of demonization of the other.  By virtue of being a major party candidate, and now president of the US, he normalizes such rhetoric.  Here, from today’s front-page story from the AP:

Quote

“It was simmering,” says Parker. “It’s like the gas burner was on, then Trump lit the fire.”

The president vaulted to political prominence by promoting the racist and false conspiracy theory that Obama was not born in the United States, launched his presidential campaign by calling Mexicans rapists and murderers, and routinely describes his enemies, including the intended recipients of the pipe bombs, as “evil,” ″dangerous,” ″the enemy of the American people.”

..............

Both parties blamed the other, and the president called for unity, then again described liberals and the media as villains. The hope Parker had that this might be a turning point faded.

Then came the shooting at a Pittsburgh synagogue that claimed 11 lives, an attack likely to cause ugly partisan debates over gun control, hate speech and more.

“I just can’t believe the kind of violence that we’re experiencing in our country,” Pittsburgh resident Cindy Jennings said at a vigil for those targeted at the Tree of Life Synagogue. “I feel like the leadership in our country right now is just encouraging violence, and I wish that that would stop.”

The volatile tribalism now so ingrained in American life will eventually right itself, says Robb Willer, a sociology professor at Stanford University, but not until the public decides it’s had enough and stops rewarding politicians who use incendiary language and demonize the other side. It’s impossible to guess, he notes, how much damage will be done in the meantime.

“That is the question of our time: Are we going to choose to continue the war, or are we going to choose peace? And we don’t know yet what the answer to that will be, because while a majority of Americans are fed up with the extremity of our political divisions, it does feel like we’re stuck here,” Willer says. “It will get worse before it gets better.”

2) We've seen it coming.  Many of us have pointed out the obvious: this WILL result in bloodshed.  In one week, we have a man sending bombs to people associated with opposition to the regime, including the press, we have a man trying to attack a black church (then killing two black people at a secondary target), and then a man killing jews -- in a synagogue, during a holy rite -- for the bonus offense of being kind to brown refugees.  This is EXACTLY what we've seen coming.  And as noted above, there's more to come.

3) And the targets will be those who are demonized as "the other."  Brown folks, who are rapists and murderers and MS-13, and jews, and black people, etc. etc.

4) I have the wrong last name in this country right now.  My childhood best friend (still a dear friend) is Honduran.  Some of our dearest friends are jewish.  Most of the people I know and love are in the crosshairs right now.

Will today be the day that someone decides to attack the Catholic Church in the Valley, where some of my family members attend, because that congregation provides humanitarian aid to refugees?  Maybe today will be the day that someone decides to attack the JCC, and kill my friend the Hebrew teacher.  Shit, maybe one of the less creative types will just shoot up the Fiesta Mart on I-35 when my kids and I are shopping.

Trump, Lou Dobbs, Tucker Carlson, etc. etc. are given pass after pass for pouring gas on the fire.  They are following the fascism playbook perfectly, and as always, the "other" ends up being the villain in the story they weave.  And who else is the villain?  The press -- that is, the people who call them out on the simple truth of their tactics.  Today, I mean, RIGHT NOW, mouthpieces of the admin are disclaiming all responsibility, and INSTEAD are blaming "late night comedians" and the media.  And tens of millions of my fellow Americans agree with them.  

Because they aren't in the crosshairs.  They don't have the wrong last name.  They aren't jewish.  So it's not their problem.

I shouldn't have wished death on anyone -- indeed, that's kind of the freaking OPPOSITE of the point I've been trying to make for two years now; we are engaging in rhetoric of hatred and death, and that will yield exactly what it promises..  But I truly can't put into words how frustrated I am.  How appalled I am that we had 11 bodies, bleeding out on a synagogue floor, family members holding them as they breathed their last.....and nothing will change.  This administration will, as promised, NOT "tone it down," but rather, will "tone it up."  That is a murderous promise.  And millions of my fellow Americans grin when they hear it, and cheer.

Oh, and the irony is not lost on me.  I'm a nobody on a message board.  When I say something inflammatory, many of the SAME FOLKS who support the President pouring gas on the fire, day after day, are APPALLED, and say that's unacceptable conduct.  Yet the President -- literally the most influential man in the world -- incites violence and puts targets on people time, after time, after time.....and crickets.  How about this -- how about we hold the President to the appropriate standard?  Not "be disappointed," but rather say what you said about my post -- it's unacceptable.  Period.  

Quote

The volatile tribalism now so ingrained in American life will eventually right itself, says Robb Willer, a sociology professor at Stanford University, but not until the public decides it’s had enough and stops rewarding politicians who use incendiary language and demonize the other side. 

Stop rewarding it.  Please.  Stop.

I don't care if we disagree on policy -- for example, on immigration, there's a HUGE spectrum of policy ideas, which can and SHOULD be discussed.  We can do so without painting brown people as murderous villains; we've done so in the past.

The path we're on is a path of death.  And as I've been shouting from the highest mountain for a couple of years now, that's not hyperbole:

The body count is only going to go up.  You're either part of the problem, or you're part of the solution -- there's no sitting on the sidelines on this one.

And to the extent that I communicated in a way that made me part of the problem, that's on me.  I'll try to do better.  And that's my last post on this thread, and this particular topic.  But I'll be around to post on the next one.  Which we all know there will be.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Brisketexan

[workswithseed 2103]

11 hours ago, Celery Man said:

 

As a member of CoC I would never add instruments to this in church, but out, hell yeah being in that sax and base guitar.

[Dnaguy 11951]

47 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 

IF it wasn't for all those jewy comedians, these anti-semites wouldn't have been inspired.

 

Gotcha.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Fantastic post, Brisket.

And you point out one of the most insane and disgusting things happening right now.

People like tjhooker who made post after post making jokes about mail bombs because he didn’t like the people receiving them but then get gravely offended because someone directs mean words at them.

And we aren’t immune from radicalized people on the left. No, there’s no Donald Trump calling for violence or calling Fox News an enemy of the state. But it’s not going to take many more mail bombs or bullets directed at “the left” before some unstable person on the left decides to get even.

It’s going to happen. And I’m afraid for what happens to this country when the worst among us feel empowered to act by those who are supposed to lead us.

[Goredho 17402]

33 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Okay, I took my timeout.  And I apologize for the tone and messaging of my offending post.  Maybe A Coordinator often is a wiser man than I, and his suggestion that I should have used the opening phrase of “imagine” before describing the scene that I did would have been the better route.  And he’s right.  And, I shouldn’t bite so hard on a troll’s trollgame.  My bad.  And apologies to the mods for making their Sunday a pain in the ass.  I was a tad raw.  Because, as noted by a few folks (appreciate the thinking, by the way), here’s how I’m processing last week:

1) Since the beginning, I’ve said that the most dangerous thing about Trump is his rhetoric of demonization of the other.  By virtue of being a major party candidate, and now president of the US, he normalizes such rhetoric.  Here, from today’s front-page story from the AP:

2) We've seen it coming.  Many of us have pointed out the obvious: this WILL result in bloodshed.  In one week, we have a man sending bombs to people associated with opposition to the regime, including the press, we have a man trying to attack a black church (then killing two black people at a secondary target), and then a man killing jews -- in a synagogue, during a holy rite -- for the bonus offense of being kind to brown refugees.  This is EXACTLY what we've seen coming.  And as noted above, there's more to come.

3) And the targets will be those who are demonized as "the other."  Brown folks, who are rapists and murderers and MS-13, and jews, and black people, etc. etc.

4) I have the wrong last name in this country right now.  My childhood best friend (still a dear friend) is Honduran.  Some of our dearest friends are jewish.  Most of the people I know and love are in the crosshairs right now.

Will today be the day that someone decides to attack the Catholic Church in the Valley, where some of my family members attend, because that congregation provides humanitarian aid to refugees?  Maybe today will be the day that someone decides to attack the JCC, and kill my friend the Hebrew teacher.  Shit, maybe one of the less creative types will just shoot up the Fiesta Mart on I-35 when my kids and I are shopping.

Trump, Lou Dobbs, Tucker Carlson, etc. etc. are given pass after pass for pouring gas on the fire.  They are following the fascism playbook perfectly, and as always, the "other" ends up being the villain in the story they weave.  And who else is the villain?  The press -- that is, the people who call them out on the simple truth of their tactics.  Today, I mean, RIGHT NOW, mouthpieces of the admin are disclaiming all responsibility, and INSTEAD are blaming "late night comedians" and the media.  And tens of millions of my fellow Americans agree with them.  

Because they aren't in the crosshairs.  They don't have the wrong last name.  They aren't jewish.  So it's not their problem.

I shouldn't have wished death on anyone -- indeed, that's kind of the freaking OPPOSITE of the point I've been trying to make for two years now; we are engaging in rhetoric of hatred and death, and that will yield exactly what it promises..  But I truly can't put into words how frustrated I am.  How appalled I am that we had 11 bodies, bleeding out on a synagogue floor, family members holding them as they breathed their last.....and nothing will change.  This administration will, as promised, NOT "tone it down," but rather, will "tone it up."  That is a murderous promise.  And millions of my fellow Americans grin when they hear it, and cheer.

Oh, and the irony is not lost on me.  I'm a nobody on a message board.  When I say something inflammatory, many of the SAME FOLKS who support the President pouring gas on the fire, day after day, are APPALLED, and say that's unacceptable conduct.  Yet the President -- literally the most influential man in the world -- incites violence and puts targets on people time, after time, after time.....and crickets.  How about this -- how about we hold the President to the appropriate standard?  Not "be disappointed," but rather say what you said about my post -- it's unacceptable.  Period.  

Stop rewarding it.  Please.  Stop.

I don't care if we disagree on policy -- for example, on immigration, there's a HUGE spectrum of policy ideas, which can and SHOULD be discussed.  We can do so without painting brown people as murderous villains; we've done so in the past.

The path we're on is a path of death.  And as I've been shouting from the highest mountain for a couple of years now, that's not hyperbole:

The body count is only going to go up.  You're either part of the problem, or you're part of the solution -- there's no sitting on the sidelines on this one.

And to the extent that I communicated in a way that made me part of the problem, that's on me.  I'll try to do better.  And that's my last post on this thread, and this particular topic.  But I'll be around to post on the next one.  Which we all know there will be.

Does this mean I don’t get all your scotch?

[bad_teammate 13195]

Brisket is too good for this garbage website.

(But don't worry, I'll still drink that garbage.)

Edited October 29, 2018 by bad_teammate

[bad_teammate 13195]

4 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

And we aren’t immune from radicalized people on the left. No, there’s no Donald Trump calling for violence or calling Fox News an enemy of the state. But it’s not going to take many more mail bombs or bullets directed at “the left” before some unstable person on the left decides to get even.

This is the same logic used to suspend a kid in school for fighting back against someone attacking him or her. Those aren't "radicalized" people. Those are people who are defending themselves.

What is with the knee-jerk desire to both sides? I just don't understand it.

[Bama Chick 28596]

It’s not both sidesism to acknowledge that there are disturbed people of all political persuasions.

And it’s not going to be self defense if a 24 year old soy boy decides to shoot up a Young Republicans wine and cheese reception.

Come on, I’m as liberal as they come on this board and it doesn’t cost me anything to be afraid of what someone who hates Trump but who isn’t mentally healthy might do after watching the events of last week.

We’d be just as irresponsible as we claim Trump and his cult to be if we dismiss a mass act of violence carried out in the name of the resistance.

What I’m talking about isn’t punching Richard Spencer in the face or snatching a MAGA hat.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

At what point should we go full Ukraine and run Trump off to Russia? 

[Captainant 27660]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

At what point should we go full Ukraine and run Trump off to Russia? 

God what a fucking chapter in a history book that will be.

[GSU&UT 1798]

30 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This is the same logic used to suspend a kid in school for fighting back against someone attacking him or her. Those aren't "radicalized" people. Those are people who are defending themselves.

What is with the knee-jerk desire to both sides? I just don't understand it.

I definitely didn't take her post to mean that, more that you can only oppress a group for so long before they start to fight back.

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

Not sure if tj has woken up from his Saturday night bender yet, but I'd like to thank him for indirectly producing the best post ever written to date here on Surly.  Well done Brisket.  The language may have been wrong, but we need more people who are willing to stand up against the fake victims.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Chuckie Finster

[retread 2951]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

At what point should we go full Ukraine and run Trump off to Russia? 

If he's not criminally convicted, I hope he's at least shamed enough to force him to live overseas. What am I saying? The man has no shame.

[bad_teammate 13195]

42 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

It’s not both sidesism to acknowledge that there are disturbed people of all political persuasions.

Given the absence of evidence, both-sidesism is EXACTLY what it is.

You're taking it as a given that the left will fight fire with fire, but there is zero actual evidence of this. The left isn't doing what the right is doing and they aren't going to start. Look at the Civil Rights movement. At no point did black America become a furious violent mob in the face of centuries of white oppression. There is no "breaking point" in any of this. The left/center will simply be crushed by the fascists and the left/center will never meet their level of terrorist violence.

The fact that you think there's even a potential equivalence is both-sidesism.

Quote

And it’s not going to be self defense if a 24 year old soy boy decides to shoot up a Young Republicans wine and cheese reception.

Why are you even talking about something that hasn't even come to close to happening and makes no sense? Why are you presenting it like an eventuality?

It's both-sides fear-mongering.

Quote

We’d be just as irresponsible as we claim Trump and his cult to be if we dismiss a mass act of violence carried out in the name of the resistance.

And aliens from Neptune might land tomorrow, I guess.

The reality is that political mass violence and political terrorism in America is, statistically speaking, completely one-sided.

[workswithseed 2103]

What do you call that bernie bro shooter? He definitely wasn't Republican. I mean that was a year ago, and the next real political attack was trumpser sending shitty bombs to people and a guy who shot up a synagogue but also hated trump.

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

10 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

What do you call that bernie bro shooter? He definitely wasn't Republican. I mean that was a year ago, and the next real political attack was trumpser sending shitty bombs to people and a guy who shot up a synagogue but also hated trump.

Forgetting a pretty big one... 

[bad_teammate 13195]

13 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

What do you call that bernie bro shooter? He definitely wasn't Republican. I mean that was a year ago, and the next real political attack was trumpser sending shitty bombs to people and a guy who shot up a synagogue but also hated trump.

Yep, the softball practice shooter and ... nothing else.

Meanwhile, there have been many deadly attacks from the right wing. Deadly right-wing violence is extremely common.

Last year’s data match historical trends recorded by the ADL. The organization counted 387 extremist-related murders over the last decade: Right-wing extremists were responsible for 71 percent of those murders, while Islamic extremists were linked to 26 percent.

71% right-wing

26% Islamic

3% left over, and that might not even be all left-wing

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

24 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

What do you call that bernie bro shooter? He definitely wasn't Republican. I mean that was a year ago, and the next real political attack was trumpser sending shitty bombs to people and a guy who shot up a synagogue but also hated trump.

The distinction between the two is one acted in line with marching orders.   One acted contrary.  President says enemy of the people.  Nuts engage as though they are the enemy of the people. 

[Goredho 17402]

Here’s a PSA for the non-empathetic on the right:

African Americans feel a certain level of anxiety when the flashing lights start in the rearview mirror and they have to wonder if this is the traffic stop where they die.

Homosexuals feel a certain level of anxiety when someone calls them a faggot and they have to wonder if this is the time they will be left tangled in a barbed-wire fence to die.

Kids and teachers feel a certain level of anxiety when an angry kid starts lashing out and they have to wonder if their school will be the site of the next school shooting massacre.

A woman at work feels a certain level of anxiety when she notices “that look” from her boss and wonders if she has to become a whore to advance or look for a new job.

Muslims and Jews at church feel a certain level of anxiety when they hear an unexpected noise at the front of their place of worship have to wonder if this is the service where they die.

Trump is Making America Hate Again.  The anxiety you feel about mythical caravans of illegal immigrant marauders and the fantasy of being stripped of your guns is nothing compared to what these growing numbers of groups (consisting of growing numbers of people) rightfully feel in response to what is happening to them right now.

You better learn to stop shouting and listen to these people.  To empathize with them and understand that the America you live in is vastly different than the one they live in.  You need to work with them to end the wrongs being imposed on them.  If you don’t, history assures you will eventually come to know exactly how they feel.

[Guest]

Saint Brisket makes a post wishing and hoping for the violent deaths of the family members of posters here.  Then he realizes that this may appear as the rantings of a hateful lunatic by those who don’t know that he is a righteous man with only pure and pious intentions, so he gives an apology followed by a defense based on his supreme passion for the oppressed; his passion is justified on account of having a Spanish last name and knowing some Hondurans.  Only the most passionate of righteous men would be compelled to wish death on children.  He deserves all of our praise and sympathy as the sole defender of the oppressed.  

Edited October 29, 2018 by Guest

[workswithseed 2103]

"Last year’s total of 34 extremist-related fatalities represents a sharp decline from the previous two years"

that was in your link, but as it shows in your data point that it stayed relatively the same percentage. I wished it showed how much it did decline though.

[bad_teammate 13195]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

"Last year’s total of 34 extremist-related fatalities represents a sharp decline from the previous two years"

that was in your link, but as it shows in your data point that it stayed relatively the same percentage. I wished it showed how much it did decline though.

So do you acknowledge that left-wing murder is a statistically insignificant (pretty much non-existent) thing or are we going to keep up the both-sides facade?

[workswithseed 2103]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

So do you acknowledge that left-wing murder is a statistically insignificant (pretty much non-existent) thing or are we going to keep up the both-sides facade?

I agreed with you. I was just pointing that all political killings were going down.

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

34 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

What do you call that bernie bro shooter? He definitely wasn't Republican. I mean that was a year ago, and the next real political attack was trumpser sending shitty bombs to people and a guy who shot up a synagogue but also hated trump.

He wasn't responding to anything Bernie ever said that could remotely be construed as a call for violence. And after it happened, Bernie got up on the Senate floor and decried the shooting without blaming the media or the Republicans. 

I don't recall the timeline but don't forget that Trump referred to Nazis in Charlottesville marching to "Hail Trump!" chants as "fine people" and then attacked the mother of a woman who one of them killed. 

[Celery Man 20943]

meanwhile Trump and Kellyanne Goebbels are pouring more gas on the fucking fire today

[Hank Kingsley 20925]

5 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I agreed with you. I was just pointing that all political killings were going down.

ADL's 2016 numbers included Omar Mateen killling 49 people at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando.  They don't consider Stephen Paddock an extremist, so the 59 people he killed in Vegas aren't included in the 2017 total. 

 

[conVINCEd 21469]

11 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I agreed with you. I was just pointing that all political killings were going down.

I suspect that the decrease in politically charged violence is going to be short-lived. Just a hunch.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

51 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yep, the softball practice shooter and ... nothing else.

Meanwhile, there have been many deadly attacks from the right wing. Deadly right-wing violence is extremely common.

Last year’s data match historical trends recorded by the ADL. The organization counted 387 extremist-related murders over the last decade: Right-wing extremists were responsible for 71 percent of those murders, while Islamic extremists were linked to 26 percent.

71% right-wing

26% Islamic

3% left over, and that might not even be all left-wing

And that’s not even including the Las Vegas shooter...his motivations remain unclear. 

[workswithseed 2103]

35 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

"Last year’s total of 34 extremist-related fatalities represents a sharp decline from the previous two years"

that was in your link, but as it shows in your data point that it stayed relatively the same percentage. I wished it showed how much it did decline though.

"according to the ADL. The organization recorded 71 extremist-related killings in 2016 and 69 in 2015."

I missed the numbers that were given in the article.

@Hank Kingsley yeah it shows how they deal with data, and I have to agree with them "But different organizations track extremist violence in different ways. The ADL counts non-ideological murders committed by extremists in its tally — so a dedicated white supremacist who commits a murder unrelated to his political beliefs would be counted, for example. New America, a think tank with its own tracking system, excludes such statistics."

[Pancho 44771]

Does this go here?

 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

5 minutes ago, Pancho Negro said:

Does this go here?

 

Oh, the Irish IRA. I was thinking he might have meant the Bhutanese Irish Republican Army. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by MaybeACoordinator

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

 

"Last year’s total of 34 extremist-related fatalities represents a sharp decline from the previous two years"

that was in your link, but as it shows in your data point that it stayed relatively the same percentage. I wished it showed how much it did decline though.

It also said "Last year’s share of white supremacist killings represents a jump from 2016, when such groups accounted for nine homicides."

2016 saw a jump in hate crimes compared to 2015 according to the FBI.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41975573

A five year high. 

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/11/13/fbi-hate-crimes-reach-5-year-high-2016-jumped-trump-rolled-toward-presidency-0

2014, 2015, and 2016 set consecutive records for being the warmest year globally. Just because 2017 didn't set a new record doesn't mean the earth isn't warming. Crime, like climate, doesn't adhere to the Gregorian calendar. What if we measured in two year periods? Or four year periods according to presidential terms? The larger the sample size, the more meaningful the data. 

That there weren't as many hate crimes in 2017 as there were coincidental with Trump's rise and election in 2016 doesn't mean Trump preaching hate isn't leading to more hate crimes. It's still a small sample size and we won't be able to fully judge until his term in office is over. 

What if 2018 sees more hate crimes than 2016? Will that suggest to you that maybe when leaders preach hate, followers oblige with hateful acts?

[Huckleberry 32859]

1 hour ago, Aphelion said:

Saint Brisket makes a post wishing and hoping for the violent deaths of the family members of posters here.  Then he realizes that this may appear as the rantings of a hateful lunatic by those who don’t know that he is a righteous man with only pure and pious intentions, so he gives an apology followed by a defense based on his supreme passion for the oppressed; his passion is justified on account of having a Spanish last name and knowing some Hondurans.  Only the most passionate of righteous men would be compelled to wish death on children.  He deserves all of our praise and sympathy as the sole defender of the oppressed.  

Dude, you have a point (and that's why the offending post is in solid red territory), but you like to read your writing a bit too much. Careful, that's how Brisketexan got started.

[workswithseed 2103]

13 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

It also said "Last year’s share of white supremacist killings represents a jump from 2016, when such groups accounted for nine homicides."

2016 saw a jump in hate crimes compared to 2015 according to the FBI.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41975573

A five year high. 

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/11/13/fbi-hate-crimes-reach-5-year-high-2016-jumped-trump-rolled-toward-presidency-0

2014, 2015, and 2016 set consecutive records for being the warmest year globally. Just because 2017 didn't set a new record doesn't mean the earth isn't warming. Crime, like climate, doesn't adhere to the Gregorian calendar. What if we measured in two year periods? Or four year periods according to presidential terms? The larger the sample size, the more meaningful the data. 

That there weren't as many hate crimes in 2017 as there were coincidental with Trump's rise and election in 2016 doesn't mean Trump preaching hate isn't leading to more hate crimes. It's still a small sample size and we won't be able to fully judge until his term in office is over. 

What if 2018 sees more hate crimes than 2016? Will that suggest to you that maybe when leaders preach hate, followers oblige with hateful acts?

It showed an uptick of 5%, but it did say in October through December where it increased. Its just weird it fell after that. I'd say yes, if 2018 shows that there was an escalation in hate crimes then I would have to agree that he would have been a factor.

[Celery Man 20943]

21 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Dude, you have a point (and that's why the offending post is in solid red territory), but you like to read your writing a bit too much. Careful, that's how Brisketexan got started.

the difference between brisket and aphelion, or at least one of them, is that brisket likes other people to smell his farts

Edited October 29, 2018 by Celery Man

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

So do you acknowledge that left-wing murder is a statistically insignificant (pretty much non-existent) thing or are we going to keep up the both-sides facade?

Edited October 29, 2018 by JimmyJames
Never mind. Misread

[workswithseed 2103]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Pretty sure he’s going with keeping up the both sides facade. 

hahaha. 

[deech 2275]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Okay, I took my timeout.  And I apologize for the tone and messaging of my offending post.  Maybe A Coordinator often is a wiser man than I, and his suggestion that I should have used the opening phrase of “imagine” before describing the scene that I did would have been the better route.  And he’s right.  And, I shouldn’t bite so hard on a troll’s trollgame.  My bad.  And apologies to the mods for making their Sunday a pain in the ass.  I was a tad raw. 

 

 

I repped the post and thought it was great, but that first paragraph made me think of this......

[Brisketexan 105121]

7 minutes ago, deech said:

 

I repped the post and thought it was great, but that first paragraph made me think of this......

In fairness, I ABSOLUTELY thought about leading with that.  Because Surly.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Yes, left wing - I hate that term - violence is nowhere near as prevalent as the kind of stuff we saw last week.

But the kind of stuff we saw last week has also been pretty rare until Trump.

I mean we had two Trump inspired - one a fanboy, one because of the caravan scare mongering - events barely two days apart.

And if it keeps up, who knows what the response will be if those being attacked keep seeing the president and his surrogates literally excusing the attacks.

The country feels like it’s teetering on the edge of something and when our so called leaders don’t seem to give a fuck if we fall over, then we’re kind of at a unprecedented point.

I don’t know - living in Alabama I’ve always been fairly circumspect about my politics. But now it’s not just about not wanting friends and colleagues to whisper about me being a filthy liberal - it’s a fear that the wrong person might decide to teach me a lesson.

This is scary. And that’s probably why some people have gotten to a place of zero tolerance for trolls that make bomb jokes or excuse Trump’s violent rhetoric.

All these words on the internet are translating to real life.

[workswithseed 2103]

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

"Using the FBI numbers, the violent crime rate fell 48% between 1993 and 2016. Using the BJS data, the rate fell 74% during that span. (For both studies, 2016 is the most recent full year of data.) It’s important to note that the FBI reported a 7% increase in the violent crime rate between 2014 and 2016, including a 20% rise in the murder rate —from 4.4 to 5.3 "

Note: This is an update of a post originally published Feb. 21, 2017

Crime has gone down drastically.