Caravan

[gsoda3 3234]

The majority won't qualify for asylum.  Mexico's not going to want them there indefinitely but we're not letting them in.  No one seems to have even a proposal for what we should do.  What's the best way forward? 

[RDCanecutter 26239]

Either make Honduras a whole lot better, or the US a whole lot worse.

[bad_teammate 13125]

Immediate Situation:

Welcome them with open arms. Invite them to participate productively in our society and economy. Register them to quickly become participatory, tax-paying citizens. Educate them and help feed their children. Be grateful to have new people who dream this big, risk this much, and work this hard to seek a better life.

Larger Situation:

Stop using our intelligence services to instigate coups against democratically elected governments.

Edited October 31, 2018 by bad_teammate

[wildcat09 29187]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Welcome them with open arms. Invite them to participate productively in our society and economy. Register them to quickly become participatory, tax-paying citizens. Educate them and help feed their children. Be grateful to have new people who dream this big, risk this much, and work this hard to seek a better life.

This. Maybe deport some sooners in exchange if we're seriously worried about not having enough space for a few more people.

Edited October 31, 2018 by wildcat09

[gsoda3 3234]

we have 700,000+ resident aliens waiting for citizenship and somewhere around 4 million waiting for resident alien / citizenship status currently on the list.  you'd have the caravaners jump ahead of them?

[F250 28659]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Immediate Situation:

Welcome them with open arms. Invite them to participate productively in our society and economy. Register them to quickly become participatory, tax-paying citizens. Educate them and help feed their children. Be grateful to have new people who dream this big, risk this much, and work this hard to seek a better life.

Larger Situation:

Stop using our intelligence services to instigate coups against democratically elected governments.

We definitely broke Central America and should help fix it.

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2630]

Let them in, document them, make them pay taxes and given them an eventual pathway to citizenship.

Thst said, if they commit any major crimes before citizenship, deport them with a lifetime ban. 

[wildcat09 29187]

Just now, gsoda3 said:

we have 700,000+ resident aliens waiting for citizenship and somewhere around 4 million waiting for resident alien / citizenship status currently on the list.  you'd have the caravaners jump ahead of them?

In the past we've let Cubans and Vietnamese and other refugees skip the line, so it's not like it'd be the first time. If you're really worried about being fair to those in line, we could just go ahead and grant them citizenship too. I'd certainly support it.

[bad_teammate 13125]

7 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

we have 700,000+ resident aliens waiting for citizenship and somewhere around 4 million waiting for resident alien / citizenship status currently on the list.  you'd have the caravaners jump ahead of them?

I hate it when someone starts a thread pretending they are asking a genuine question for discussion when in reality they're just waiting to shove arguments in other peoples' mouths.

I never said a word about jumping any lines, troll.

[retread 2951]

Just

Asking

Questions

[David Dennison 18603]

10 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

we have 700,000+ resident aliens waiting for citizenship and somewhere around 4 million waiting for resident alien / citizenship status currently on the list.  you'd have the caravaners jump ahead of them?

Where do you come up with this? No one says they should jump ahead of anyone.

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

8 minutes ago, Xian said:

Let them in, document them, make them pay taxes and given them an eventual pathway to citizenship.

Thst said, if they commit any major crimes before citizenship, deport them with a lifetime ban. 

Stop being so damn reasonable.

[gsoda3 3234]

the cubans and vietnamese would've qualified under today's asylum standard.  i'm not convinced a mass one-time granting of citizenship status -or at least perm res status- would be as destabilizing as feared, other than in the reactions of those who are against it.  though there IS something to be said for having consistent rule of law when it comes to our borders.  the situations aren't exactly analogous, but the memory of what's happened in europe is fresh and we do want to avoid those events.  the best thing i can think of right now is finding several other countries who would partner with us to help take on the entire caravan.  

[David Dennison 18603]

1 minute ago, gsoda3 said:

the cubans and vietnamese would've qualified under today's asylum standard.  i'm not convinced a mass one-time granting of citizenship status -or at least perm res status- would be as destabilizing as feared, other than in the reactions of those who are against it.  though there IS something to be said for having consistent rule of law when it comes to our borders.  the situations aren't exactly analogous, but the memory of what's happened in europe is fresh and we do want to avoid those events.  the best thing i can think of right now is finding several other countries who would partner with us to help take on the entire caravan.  

It sounds like for most of these folks, it's going to be Mexico's problem.

[gsoda3 3234]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I hate it when someone starts a thread pretending they are asking a genuine question for discussion when in reality they're just waiting to shove arguments in other peoples' mouths.

I never said a word about jumping any lines, troll.

well what would you do with those on the list then?  you didn't mention it.  

[gsoda3 3234]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

It sounds like for most of these folks, it's going to be Mexico's problem.

i don't think we can afford to let it be mexico's problem because it'll eventually be ours.  

[TexArcher 37455]

The Statue of Liberty is pretty clear on this: "Bring me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning...  Especially the ones from Slovenia with big fake tits...  But not the brown ones...  Send them back to the hell holes we created for them before they rape someone and end up on our Supreme Court."

 

[gsoda3 3234]

one of the things we have to consider with a mass migration event is that this will create an entrenched group of lower class people for at least one generation.  we have to be ok with seeing that and have a plan for how we're going to use our assets to help.  

[burntorangebongos 10681]

DHS Secretary Nielsen proposed asking UNHCR to set up camps inside of Mexico and enlist Mexico's help in convincing migrants to go to those camps, but Bolton thought that plan was jnworkable so he undermined her idea with the president in favor of using the military.  There was a leak that this was the reason Kelly and he got into the shouting match. Bolton froze out the Pentagon and Homeland Security to get the dumb president to move in his direction. 

The Mexican government requested help for their asylum system to increase and improve shelter spaces for them. That is what Nielsen and Kelly wanted to support. Maybe it is not too late to do that? Provide the necessary shelters for them and then help Mexico support these new people. Guest worker programs for them and those already here maybe? We need welders and dairy farm workers, highway workers etc.  Helping Mexico help the refugees via the UN Refugee Agency makes better sense to me. I don't know but I'd think they'd have a good idea of the process for helping these folks.

[RDCanecutter 26239]

The normal daily outflow from Honduras, I read, is estimated at 200-300. These would be individuals paying thousands to coyotes. If there are about 5,000 in the caravan, that's just 20 normal days coming in one group, paying a lot less-- I won't say zero, there's no way they're crossing some cartel's territory without kicking back some tribute to the criminals and local cops. OK, that was redundant.

I think more than half will opt for some situation in Mexico, and probably be better off. Of the rest, we'll sort them out for asylum, or not, and some will sneak in and roof houses or wash dishes until we catch them and deport them.

Edited October 31, 2018 by RDCanecutter

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

29 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Immediate Situation:

Welcome them with open arms. Invite them to participate productively in our society and economy. Register them to quickly become participatory, tax-paying citizens. Educate them and help feed their children. Be grateful to have new people who dream this big, risk this much, and work this hard to seek a better life.

Larger Situation:

Stop using our intelligence services to instigate coups against democratically elected governments.

And fuck over the people who have been legally applying to the US for asylum, visas, and or citizenship... Yep emotionalism every time with you.

[wildcat09 29187]

2 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

one of the things we have to consider with a mass migration event is that this will create an entrenched group of lower class people for at least one generation.  we have to be ok with seeing that and have a plan for how we're going to use our assets to help.  

We need to learn to deal with things like this now because it's only going to continue regardless of how reactionary and awful our government becomes. It's quickly becoming impossible to live near the equator. This caravan already includes many who are essentially refugees of global warming, and that's going to get much worse over the next fifty years, not better. We're going to have to learn to accommodate a lot of new people and incorporate them into American society. Europe is dealing with the same problem. Not only is it inhumane, it's simply not going to be possible to build a giant wall and keep everyone out.

Edited October 31, 2018 by wildcat09

[Biff Tannen 45477]

Bolton seems like kind of an asshole.

[David Dennison 18603]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

Bolton seems like kind of an asshole.

Anyone who grooms themselves like that on purpose is an asshole 100%.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11796]

16 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

the cubans and vietnamese would've qualified under today's asylum standard.  i'm not convinced a mass one-time granting of citizenship status -or at least perm res status- would be as destabilizing as feared, other than in the reactions of those who are against it.  though there IS something to be said for having consistent rule of law when it comes to our borders.  the situations aren't exactly analogous, but the memory of what's happened in europe is fresh and we do want to avoid those events.  the best thing i can think of right now is finding several other countries who would partner with us to help take on the entire caravan.  

A lot of those cubans and vietnamese might get deported now, if this whole birth citizenship thing goes as unplanned. 

[Rimbo 25752]

Great write-up from reddit on the caravan and the 14th and Trump's idiotic blatherings:

 

Let's break this down into a couple of questions, because context is king:

What's the Fourteenth Amendment, anyway?

Basically, the rule is that if you're born in the USA, you're a US citizen. The Fourteenth Amendment states it pretty clearly. It begins:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

If you're born in the USA, you have what's known as jus soli citizenship: citizenship by place of birth, as opposed to jus sanguinis citizenship, which comes from blood (that is to say, from your parents' citizenship). (There are some exceptions to this, like for example the children of diplomats who aren't 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof', but these are rare. Generally speaking, if you pop a sprog between Canada and Mexico, that kid has US citizenship by birthright.) This has been considered pretty much a settled question in jurisprudence ever since about 1898, in United States v. Wong Kim Ark.

Why's everyone talking about this now?

Trump noted in an interview that he wants to prevent the children of people who aren't US citizens who are born on US soil from automatically becoming US citizens themselves.

• "It was always told to me that you needed a constitutional amendment. Guess what? You don't," Trump said, declaring he can do it by executive order.

• When told that's very much in dispute, Trump replied: "You can definitely do it with an Act of Congress. But now they're saying I can do it just with an executive order."

• "We're the only country in the world where a person comes in and has a baby, and the baby is essentially a citizen of the United States ... with all of those benefits," Trump continued. "It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And it has to end."

• "It's in the process. It'll happen ... with an executive order."

Is that right?

Not even close.

The problem, at least as far as Trump is concerned, is that he can't actually do that. Changing a constitutional amendment is hard. He's claimed it just requires an executive order, but you can't overturn the Constitution by executive order and so he's shit out of luck. (If you don't believe me, you can at least believe Paul Ryan, or any of these eleven legal experts. If you think this is a bad idea, I'd urge you to consider how you'd feel if a given President felt he could overturn the First, Second or Fifth Amendments with a single, unregulated stroke of the pen, and then get back to me. Hell, what if a President felt that he could overturn the Twenty-Second Amendment and do away with presidential term limits entirely?) It's also important to note Trump's sneaky little lie:

We're the only country in the world where a person comes in and has a baby, and the baby is essentially a citizen of the United States ... with all of those benefits

Yes, it is true that the USA is the only country in the world where a person is (not essentially but actually and completely) a citizen of the United States, but only because it'd be pretty strange if it were the case that being born in France, Rwanda or Equatorial Guinea could grant you US citizenship. About thirty countries, including Brazil and Canada, also have unrestricted jus soli citizenship. The USA is rare, perhaps, but by no means unique in that regard.

This also butts heads with another weird little quirk of US citizenship: if you're a US citizen, by jus soli or jus sanguinis, you have to pay taxes to the US even if you're not in the country. There's only one other country that taxes non-resident citizens in this way (and it's Eritrea, so if you guessed that ahead of time I'm very impressed). This has led to the situation where people who were born in the USA to foreign parents -- say, an early birth while on holiday -- are citizens of and must legally pay taxes to a country that they haven't been to since (and also register for the draft).

Who told him he could do it?

In the interview, Trump said, 'You can definitely do it with an Act of Congress. But now they're saying I can do it just with an executive order.' Who are they?

Well, no one knows as yet. The person to look out for is probably Trump's immigration doyen (read into that what you will), Stephen Miller. Most of the big Trump immigration policies have come via Miller's office, including the Muslim travel ban(s), the separation of children from their parents at the border, discontinuation of funding to 'sanctuary cities', and The Wall™. Politico has noted that this is an idea that Miller has been involved with previously in the Trump Administration, so several news outlets are suggesting his potential involvement. (This may become very interesting in the coming days, if the rumoured Trump post-election shakeup happens; if Miller has had a lot of influence on this policy decision, his continuance as one of the most prominent faces in the Trump White House may wax or wane depending on the result of the midterms.)

So what's the big deal?

I know, I know... at this point, 'Trump says he's going to do something he can't legally do' is a bit of a dog-bites-man news story, but this is coming only a week out from an extremely important mid-term election in which the Republicans are expected to lose the House (unlikely also the Senate, but the odds of that are still higher than people were giving Trump of winning in 2016, so who even knows at this point?). Tough talk on migrants riles up the Republican base, and Trump needs that turnout to have any chance of legislative victories in the two remaining years of his term.

This dovetails nicely with the migrant caravan that is currently moving through Mexico and heading towards the United States. Trump and other Republican higher-ups are using the opportunity to stoke fear into the hearts of voters, claiming -- incorrectly -- that this is an invasion (hyperbole), that Democrats want an open border, that there are gang members and Middle-Easterners using the caravan to sneak across the border (no evidence), and that people crossing in the caravan are doing so illegally. It's the last that's the most insidious, especially given that he tried to pull the same shit when it came to the child detention debacle earlier this year; in short, the caravan are not behaving illegally yet. The expectation is that when they arrive in the USA, the vast majority of them will claim asylum from the dangerous conditions in their home countries, which is a right granted by the USA to anyone on the planet.

This push for fear with regards to the caravan is pretty much everywhere because it works to get Republican-leaning individuals incensed enough to take the time out of their days to head to the polls. (Voter engagement is expected to be one of the Democrats' biggest advantages in the midterms, which are not traditionally considered a particularly sexy election cycle.) However, notable breaks from the President's rhetoric include Fox News anchor Shep Smith, who said on Monday:

There is no invasion. No one’s coming to get you. There’s nothing at all to worry about. But tomorrow is one week before the midterm election — which is what all of this is about.

There is likely no better summation of the context of the story than that.

[tantric superman 4667]

7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And fuck over the people who have been legally applying to the US for asylum, visas, and or citizenship... Yep emotionalism every time with you.

No, let them in too.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

No, let them in too.

Sure, in the proper legal manner.

[David Dennison 18603]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Sure, in the proper legal manner.

That's what is going to happen with the caravan. The proper legal manner is process.

[GSU&UT 1798]

37 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

one of the things we have to consider with a mass migration event is that this will create an entrenched group of lower class people for at least one generation.  we have to be ok with seeing that and have a plan for how we're going to use our assets to help.  

Motherfucker, the current ruling party already does this for most us citizens.

Edited October 31, 2018 by GSU&UT

[Pig Bellmont 8679]

54 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

The majority won't qualify for asylum.  Mexico's not going to want them there indefinitely but we're not letting them in.  No one seems to have even a proposal for what we should do.  What's the best way forward? 

I don’t understand the question. What do we normally do with people who legally present themselves at the border, apply for asylum and don’t obtain it? Why is this specific caravan different from any other group of mostly women and children fleeing a shit situation?

I mean I guess we should examine this administrations actions separating children from their parents and moving them to detention facilities in states across the country to process their applications individually, holding asylum seekers indefinitely, allowing children to represent themselves in immigration court in front of judges instructed by the DOJ to specifically limit ability of immigrants to get asylum, and deporting parents without their kids all while failing to create a system that tracks and chronicles those in custody - but I don’t think that’s the discussion you wanted. 

Here’s what we don’t do: We don’t halt legal immigration and we don’t militarize the border. 

[bad_teammate 13125]

46 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

well what would you do with those on the list then?  you didn't mention it.  

Do bad faith trolls deserve good faith responses?

You're pathetic.

[hayden_horn 11360]

really, i think it's fundamentally time to address WHY these people are in the caravan. why have they chosen to walk across the expanse of a whole other country, uprooting themselves from home, with their family and whatever they can carry? once we address these questions, we can determine if we do or do not act as empathetic human beings. 

arguing "you can't help these people because of this other group of people over here" is no way to live your life, man. 

these people legitimately fear death and reprisal in their homeland. if there was ever a more clear-cut case for asylum, i'm not sure i've seen it recently. 

we certainly have room for them. i've never understood our immigration policy. it's set up to fail.

[riloh05 107]

12 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

really, i think it's fundamentally time to address WHY these people are in the caravan. why have they chosen to walk across the expanse of a whole other country, uprooting themselves from home, with their family and whatever they can carry? once we address these questions, we can determine if we do or do not act as empathetic human beings. 

arguing "you can't help these people because of this other group of people over here" is no way to live your life, man. 

these people legitimately fear death and reprisal in their homeland. if there was ever a more clear-cut case for asylum, i'm not sure i've seen it recently. 

we certainly have room for them. i've never understood our immigration policy. it's set up to fail.

being in mexico...arent they already out of their current situation?

[relapse98 634]

1 hour ago, burntorangebongos said:

DHS Secretary Nielsen proposed asking UNHCR to set up camps inside of Mexico and enlist Mexico's help in convincing migrants to go to those camps, but Bolton thought that plan was jnworkable so he undermined her idea with the president in favor of using the military. 

That's weird. Why would you not want them to help stop them where they are in Mexico, 2000 miles from the US border but instead have them travel all that distance to then be stopped at the border by the military. I mean, one could look at that plan and think maybe someone was using them to score political points to show how big and bad he was and used the US military to stop them at the border instead of doing the sensible thing and getting them to halt where they are now. Weird.

[relapse98 634]

57 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

A lot of those cubans and vietnamese might get deported now, if this whole birth citizenship thing goes as unplanned. 

It'd certainly make Miami a better place.

[bad_teammate 13125]

1 minute ago, relapse98 said:

That's weird. Why would you not want them to help stop them where they are in Mexico, 2000 miles from the US border but instead have them travel all that distance to then be stopped at the border by the military. I mean, one could look at that plan and think maybe someone was using them to score political points to show how big and bad he was and used the US military to stop them at the border instead of doing the sensible thing and getting them to halt where they are now. Weird.

Because they're racist authoritarians who literally want these people to suffer.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

1 hour ago, gsoda3 said:

one of the things we have to consider with a mass migration event is that this will create an entrenched group of lower class people for at least one generation.  we have to be ok with seeing that and have a plan for how we're going to use our assets to help.  

You've obviously never spent any time on the border if you don't think that already exists. It's been that way for a long time hombre. Thing is, they all get by just fine, it must be the menudo. 

[bad_teammate 13125]

"We can't create a permanent underclass!" I howl as the bottom 98% holds only 23% (and rapidly shrinking) of the nation's wealth and which has the largest imprisoned population in the world.

[CooterBrown 17874]

That's weird. Why would you not want them to help stop them where they are in Mexico, 2000 miles from the US border but instead have them travel all that distance to then be stopped at the border by the military.

It’s Bolton. His reason for being is to kill everyone and everything. He’s a sociopath.

[Mo Horn 8795]

I used to travel several times a year to Honduras. I spent time in very rural areas. There is nothing there for these folks. If you have a chance to get some advanced education then maybe, but that's not the lot in life for people who are in the caravan. For them it's either be part of the gangs, get killed by the gangs, or leave. If you spend any time there you will understand why they choose to do everything they can to get themselves, or at least their kids, out. There's a reason why it's the murder Capitol of the world.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

14 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

 

It’s Bolton. His reason for being is to kill everyone and everything. He’s a sociopath.

 

Not a big fan of the Posse Comitatus Act either. 

[gsoda3 3234]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Do bad faith trolls deserve good faith responses?

You're pathetic.

look at your posts and look at mine, if you still think i'm the troll i don't know what to tell you. 

[gsoda3 3234]

1 hour ago, GSU&UT said:

Motherfucker, the current ruling party already does this for most us citizens.

set aside the hyperbole.  the situation "most us citizens" are in is NOTHING compared to what a group of 4 million plus people new to the country will be facing.   most of the people wanting to come are coming because they're in desperate situations.  first generation immigrants with that background live a HARD life in the states.  you want to help them?  get to know some.

1 hour ago, Lagunamadre said:

You've obviously never spent any time on the border if you don't think that already exists. It's been that way for a long time hombre. Thing is, they all get by just fine, it must be the menudo. 

oh i know plenty well.  granting a one-time exception to 4 million fresh faces is going to be different than what we have now.  that's my point.  there would have to be stipulations on where they settle for instance.  imagine if LA or NY or even the valley all of a sudden had an influx of 100,000 people overnight.  that would be chaos.  

[gsoda3 3234]

1 hour ago, relapse98 said:

That's weird. Why would you not want them to help stop them where they are in Mexico, 2000 miles from the US border but instead have them travel all that distance to then be stopped at the border by the military. I mean, one could look at that plan and think maybe someone was using them to score political points to show how big and bad he was and used the US military to stop them at the border instead of doing the sensible thing and getting them to halt where they are now. Weird.

if i'm reading it correctly, the proximity to the border allows for ingress/egress out of the border states in a work/travel capacity.  

[sidis 9713]

1 minute ago, gsoda3 said:

oh i know plenty well.  granting a one-time exception to 4 million fresh faces is going to be different than what we have now.  that's my point.  there would have to be stipulations on where they settle for instance.  imagine if LA or NY or even the valley all of a sudden had an influx of 100,000 people overnight.  that would be chaos.  

just sayin'...it is infrastructure week after all.  labor supply glut for road, bridge, internet, electricity, water reconstruction??

[bad_teammate 13125]

9 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

look at your posts and look at mine, if you still think i'm the troll i don't know what to tell you. 

No puppet, you're the puppet

[atomheartbevo 89362]

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Bolton seems like kind of an asshole.

But he’s got moves.  

 

[workswithseed 2033]

There is so much going on in that gif. I love it.

[workswithseed 2033]

25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

No puppet, you're the puppet

You're not changing my opinion anyway with this, Or his. Call him puppet, just let you know that just letting them becoming citizens isn't happening neither just letting them just pass by with a smile and a wave as they cross our border.

I think the best thing to do is stop the train in Mexico, let families and children come first and then deal with the rest later.