Caravan

[hayden_horn 11362]

Just now, tjhooker said:

Please.  This was never a huge issue like the media is making it now.  There was never a CR thread with pages discussing it.  There werent countless stories by the media.  Try to be honest at least.

with 30 seconds of google-fu, i posted four articles about this issue and obama.

this has been an issue since central america has gotten destabilized.

but i'm sure, if you took JUST a brief moment to think about it, you might understand why it has become such a prominent issue.

just a quick moment.

i'll even give you a hint: it involves the leader of the free world.

[David Dennison 18856]

1 minute ago, tjhooker said:

Please.  This was never a huge issue like the media is making it now.  There was never a CR thread with pages discussing it.  There werent countless stories by the media.  Try to be honest at least.

Do a little research.

[Brisketexan 105099]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes, buy all means lets give a voice to .000000001% of the population and then try to claim it's the new norm.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaghh NAAAAAAAAZIS they're eeeeeeeeevrywhere.....

What were your comments on this border issue when it was the Obama admin. doing the pepper spraying and tera gassing ??

Cue the what aboutisms........ 

There were Nazis.

Then there was the general population that was complicit with the Nazis.  I wonder....what do we think of the German population that knew full well what has happening under the regime, but went about their business as the crematoria spit out burnt human ash right next door?  Yeah....this is what we think of them:

...we marched them into the camp to clean up because they goddamned well knew what was happening.

 

Here's a review of an excellent book on the subject:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2016/03/01/why-they-stuck-with-hitler/#1cfb060a6797

Quote

Why Even Non-Nazi Germans Stuck With Hitler When Disaster Loomed

 

Steve ForbesForbes Staff

“With all thy getting, get understanding."

•  
•  
•  

THE SECOND WORLD WAR was the most cataclysmic conflict in human history, so it's no surprise that books about it keep pouring forth 70 years after it ended. The German War: A Nation Under Arms, 1939-1945, by Nicholas Stargardt (Basic Books, $35), brilliantly and with impressive nuance and texture deals with the astounding questions of how the most educated and cultured nation on earth could unloose such a murderous, barbarous and genocidal war and why most Germans--Nazis and non-Nazis alike--closed ranks around Hitler, even when it became clear the war was going to end disastrously.

Having combed through countless letters and diaries, Stargardt smoothly and vividly weaves together the stories of more than a score of individual Germans from all walks of life and the unfolding events of the war. Focus is largely on the Eastern Front, where most German casualties occurred. He shows how people's attitudes and opinions evolved, one example being a young man who was sensitive and artistic yet cold and indifferent to the atrocities he witnessed in Russia. Such shocking contradictions were common. A prominent Protestant, Bishop Wurm of Württemberg, faintheartedly protested the Nazi regime's policy of murdering "deformed" infants and the mentally ill by administering poisonous drugs or starving them to death, while Catholic Bishop Galen of Münster initially courageously and publicly condemned the practice. The death toll from this alone was well over 200,000. Yet Galen vigorously supported the invasion of the "Jewish Bolshevik" Soviet Union and refused any aid to Jews, even to those who had years before converted to Christianity, while Wurm privately wrote letters to the Reich in support of those converts. As this book makes clear, both the Protestant and the Catholic churches were guilty of moral failure.

A number of German soldiers and officials were uneasy or outright horrified by what was happening, but most did nothing about it. All but a handful of non-Nazis supported the war to the end because they believed defeat would lead to Germany's annihilation.

Stargardt evokes the nitty-gritty of daily life: complaints about hypocritical officials living high on the hog (a common gibe: "When will the war end? When [the obese Hermann] Göring fits into [the slim propaganda chief Joseph] Goebbels' trousers"); rationing; infidelities on the home front; the movies, plays and radio shows people preferred (Shakespeare was performed more frequently in Germany than in Britain during the war); the Allied bombing; and the course of the war itself.

Some highlights:

--Most German civilians were aware of the mass killing of the Jews and other atrocities through letters and photos sent to them by husbands, sons, brothers and friends, and from conversations when these men came home on leave.

-Goebbels was a master at making the home front complicit in what was happening, first by noting Hitler's January 1939 "prophecy" that if the Jews launched another European war they would perish, and then letting events speak for themselves--the deportation of German Jews and the auctioning off of their property, along with what people learned from news sent by their relatives fighting on the Eastern Front.

--Most Germans convinced themselves that the war was one of self-defense, a fight for survival, because the evil French, Russians, British and Americans and their "Jewish masters" all wanted to destroy Germany.

--Germans also engaged in moral equivalence: The bombing of German cities by the U.S. and Britain was in retaliation for the Reich's treatment of Jews, but what was happening in the death camps and shooting pits was really no different from the Allies' "terror" bombings.

--One reason the Germans fought to the bitter end with a fanaticism exceeding that of the Japanese was the "shame" of November 1918, when Germany suddenly collapsed, even though the Fatherland hadn't been invaded and most people believed the army was still in good fighting order.

--Contrary to Nazi myth, the Germans were hardly a united community. Differences between regions, classes and religions were sharp and became exacerbated when millions of refugees from bombed-out cities were moved to other parts of the country.

--Public opinion on the war oscillated. At the beginning Germans were deeply opposed. The seemingly easy victory over France made people euphoric; setbacks had the opposite effect. But even though the regime suffered bouts of immense unpopularity, particularly in the summer of 1943, most Germans never wavered in their belief that they shouldn't give up.

--German military casualties were horrific. In the first few weeks of 1945, for instance, German army deaths exceeded the number the U.S. lost in the entire war. Total German military deaths were around 4.8 million.

--In 1941, just before Pearl Harbor, Hitler's armaments minister and long-time trusted confidant Fritz Todt told the Führer that "this war can no longer be won by military means," because Germany couldn't match the growing production of the U.S. (which was providing more and more materiel to Britain and Russia), not to mention the increasing output of the Soviet Union and Great Britain. Todt recommended that Hitler negotiate the best deal he could and end the war.

Instead, Hitler maniacally went in the opposite direction. The killing of Jews was ramped up exponentially. At the beginning of 1942 most of Europe's Jews were still alive; by year's end the majority were dead. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, Hitler immediately declared war on the U.S.

This is an extremely interesting yet disheartening tale of a civilized people's descent into barbarism.

The phrase "it can't happen here" may be one of the most foolish utterances in human history.

It doesn't take a population of Nazis to descend into barbarism.  It takes a small faction of Nazis/alt right shitbags, AND a population that dismisses the threat/goes along to get along.

Don't be part of the poison.

Be part of the antidote.  And administer the antidote early and often.  That's what a morally conscientious citizenry does.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Brisketexan

[Celery Man 20935]

There were nazis during Obama too. But you didn’t care then.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 hour ago, hayden_horn said:

it was more like 45 seconds, but yes, your point is valid.

this shit is not hard to find if you (not you, fantana, you generally) go look for it. 

i remember many critics of obama's stance on immigration on shaggy. his deportation policy was draconian, and as a matter of fact, many posters on both the left and (then) right advocated for the GWB policy, which seemed to be the best approach. but bush was from texas, and he understood the challenges of immigration.

also, our border patrol are a bunch of wannabe cowboys, and i think they use violence far too often when it is not necessary. plenty of stories out there about use of excessive force and even murder. they need to be seriously examined.

except this is the type of behavior that republicans want out of their border patrol. because "rapists" and "animals" only understand violence, right?

I have gotten to know a few Border Patrol agents through my travels and I don’t have that impression of them at all. The vast majority of the ones I have come across in Texas are Hispanic themselves and as a result you’d think they’d have greater sensitivity to the issue at hand. At any border checkpoint you will see big signs saying they’re hiring so maybe a few bad apples get through.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

You fucking idiot. I'm not saying that it's a matter of condemning an entire group based off the actions of a few. You clearly still cannot understand that concept. I'm saying that nearly all of the political violence in our country comes from the far and alt-right. Sure, whataboutism the baseball game and "punch a nazi", but you're ignoring the statistical FACT that angry white extremists are responsible for the majority of terrorism in the country. If your only defense is that it's so few people causing the trouble, then I'm really surprised that you hate the people at the border so much.

You’re forgetting about Islamic influenced violence and terror. Pulse nightclub, San Bernardino, 9/11, I can go on. Violence by Muslims is still by far the #1 threat this nation faces.

[High Plains Drifter 11044]

On 11/27/2018 at 9:07 AM, Captainant said:

No idea why a historically notable prison camp for a marginalized social group would be making comparison to a modern prison camp for a marginalized social group where people have been getting sexually assaulted and beaten and forcibly separated from their parents and systemically moved to make it more difficult for those people to even know where they are. 

Sure its not gas chambers, but its on the road to gas chambers.

[Brisketexan 105099]

6 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

You’re forgetting about Islamic influenced violence and terror. Pulse nightclub, San Bernardino, 9/11, I can go on. Violence by Muslims is still by far the #1 threat this nation faces.

Other than the fact that since 9/11, that's not true, sure.  And the numbers below don't even include the additional violence of the past two years (when you do that, the number of deaths caused by far-right extremists constitutes the majority as well):

[High Plains Drifter 11044]

12 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

I have gotten to know a few Border Patrol agents through my travels and I don’t have that impression of them at all. The vast majority of the ones I have come across in Texas are Hispanic themselves and as a result you’d think they’d have greater sensitivity to the issue at hand. At any border checkpoint you will see big signs saying they’re hiring so maybe a few bad apples get through.

Bullshit.

[YChang 3443]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Other than the fact that since 9/11, that's not true, sure.  And the numbers below don't even include the additional violence of the past two years (when you do that, the number of deaths caused by far-right extremists constitutes the majority as well):

Availability Heuristic at work!

[High Plains Drifter 11044]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's not just "some wack job" it's a very specific set of wack jobs that people like you keep egging on with your "Lock her up!" and "But Obama!' and "Fake news" and "OMG Immigrants!!!" bullshit.

fixy.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Other than the fact that since 9/11, that's not true, sure.  And the numbers below don't even include the additional violence of the past two years (when you do that, the number of deaths caused by far-right extremists constitutes the majority as well):

Technically, radical Islam is a far right ideology itself.

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, tjhooker said:

Y'all remember that thread a few years back on CR complaining about the US tear gassing people trying to cross the border?  Yeah, it was great.  Wait a minute it didn't exist. 

Also, because you found some stories on the internet does not mean there was this large media backlash.  In fact, until this happened I never knew we did that.  I am someone who reads and watches the news everyday.  Please stop saying it was just the same.

We're not saying it was the same. We're saying there was intense criticism, which there was.

Donald Trump's racism and insistence on drawing attention to the matter for political purposes makes this different from the Obama administration.

[hayden_horn 11362]

1 minute ago, tjhooker said:

Y'all remember that thread a few years back on CR complaining about the US tear gassing people trying to cross the border?  Yeah, it was great.  Wait a minute it didn't exist. 

Also, because you found some stories on the internet does not mean there was this large media backlash.  In fact, until this happened I never knew we did that.  I am someone who reads and watches the news everyday.  Please stop saying it was just the same.

nobody is saying it was just the same. are you intentionally trolling or are you just incapable of interacting with other human beings without being a twat?

we've been saying there was backlash. now everything is different. why? because trump, his aggressive rhetoric, and his asshole actions. 

[David Dennison 18856]

21 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

You’re forgetting about Islamic influenced violence and terror. Pulse nightclub, San Bernardino, 9/11, I can go on. Violence by Muslims is still by far the #1 threat this nation faces.

It's not even close to being the number one threat this nation faces.

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, tjhooker said:

has nothing to do with the liberal media bias at all.  come on.

Good grief, the White House has its own propaganda network and you still cry about the liberal media.

Edited November 28, 2018 by David Dennison

[David Dennison 18856]

1 minute ago, tjhooker said:

sure, the media is totally unbiased and shoots down the middle.  

Where do you get your news?

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, tjhooker said:

all over the place but it is very hard to find one that doesnt lean left in some way and some are real bad.  You want me to say Fox News or something?

I just like hearing right wingers cry about the liberal media. It warms my heart.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

7 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

sure, the media is totally unbiased and shoots down the middle.  

The problem is that you are simply on the wrong side of history.  Nobody has to sit around and argue that hate is acceptable.

How do you imagine "middle" coverage of the synagogue shooting going?  Maybe a pundit saying the shooter had a legit beef with Jews and should be heard?  That's the "middle" you seek?  Or maybe more lies about Soros to drum up more shooters?

Edited November 28, 2018 by FondrenRoad

[ChickenSandwich 9834]

Weird how Tijuana never took issue with being a major illegal immigrant crossing until they actually had to start paying for the economic consequeseces. Skin in the game. Now they want them gone and are almost out of money. They also request Trump pay Mexico 20billion to “create jobs” there for the migrants. Champaign socialism is hard when you actually have to deal with your own crusade first hand instead of a 1000 miles away  

I can think of a large infrastructure project that costs about $20 billion dollars to build. And wouldn’t you know it, they are already in the correct location. 

[seven 1367]

15 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Technically, radical Islam is a far right ideology itself.

Yeah, it's actually quite scary how much trump people and radicalized Muslims overlap ideologically 

[David Dennison 18856]

3 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

it must be nice to be able to easily read and watch all the confirmation bias you want.  Glorious!

The ability to think critically helps. You should try it.

[David Dennison 18856]

1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Weird how Tijuana never took issue with being a major illegal immigrant crossing until they actually had to start paying for the economic consequeseces. Skin in the game. Now they want them gone and are almost out of money. They also request Trump pay Mexico 20billion to “create jobs” there for the migrants. Champaign socialism is hard when you actually have to deal with your own crusade first hand instead of a 1000 miles away  

I can think of a large infrastructure project that costs about $20 billion dollars to build. And wouldn’t you know it, they are already in the correct location. 

It's never going to happen.

[hayden_horn 11362]

Just now, David Dennison said:

The ability to think critically helps. You should try it.

this is the guy who kept calling people soy boy, isn't it?

[YChang 3443]

3 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

it must be nice to be able to easily read and watch all the confirmation bias you want.  Glorious!

Confirmation bias and well lots of other biases are problems — how do you reduce it? Because as far as the way you present yourself here... my perception is you suffer from it as well. 

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, tjhooker said:

when did I say hate is acceptable?  if you knew me you would never say that to me.  

Please more hyperbole!  More talk about people killing jews, concentration camps and putting people in gas chambers.  MOAR! 

BTW you are proving my points here.  Thank you.

If you support the Republican Party, you are signaling that hate is acceptable. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Weird how Tijuana never took issue with being a major illegal immigrant crossing until they actually had to start paying for the economic consequeseces. Skin in the game. Now they want them gone and are almost out of money. They also request Trump pay Mexico 20billion to “create jobs” there for the migrants. Champaign socialism is hard when you actually have to deal with your own crusade first hand instead of a 1000 miles away  

I can think of a large infrastructure project that costs about $20 billion dollars to build. And wouldn’t you know it, they are already in the correct location. 

Nah, they'll just wait for Fox News to move on to hating gays or black people again.  You'll be posting it up on a gaybashing thread, and Mexico will quietly facilitate illegal crossing into the US again.

[RomaVicta 29907]

1 hour ago, tjhooker said:

Quote

We are normalizing ourselves to state violence against innocents, women, children, and families in a not-hard-to-spot and not-slow process.

why is this an issue now when it has been going on for years?

Do you listen to yourself?

[staboner 4969]

idoit, troll, same same. stop engaging it. for fuck sake you are arguing with it on medias bias. 

[Captainant 27658]

Lol I negged hooker because for some reason he still showed up despite my ignore settings and now he's going on a neg spree because I hurt his fee-fees. What a soy boy

[ChickenSandwich 9834]

Just now, FondrenRoad said:

Nah, they'll just wait for Fox News to move on to hating gays or black people again.  You'll be posting it up on a gaybashing thread, and Mexico will quietly facilitate illegal crossing into the US again.

Lol. Good for you simpleton. When you got nothing to say you fall back to lobbing racist, homophobic name calling at others. So intellectually dishonest, anytime a tough topic is to be debated you run in the corner and pout instead of addressing the issue. Everyone who doesn’t agree with you is just a big meanie. 

Curius to know when you plan on heading down to the border to pass out your paycheck. You are incredibly eager to give others money away, how much have you personally contributed?  Why do you hate brown people?

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

when did I say hate is acceptable?  if you knew me you would never say that to me.  

Please more hyperbole!  More talk about people killing jews, concentration camps and putting people in gas chambers.  MOAR! 

BTW you are proving my points here.  Thank you.

Are you kidding?  You don't have any points.  You're a fucking shithead troll, and you're hateful as fuck.  In fact, you don't have a non-hateful post on this board.  Even your least hateful posts are outright trolls which are, in many ways, worse than open hatred.  Your the dude that laughed in Nazi Germany when his Jewish neighbor got taken away because you simply don't care about anything.

[staboner 4969]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Lol I negged hooker because for some reason he still showed up despite my ignore settings and now he's going on a neg spree because I hurt his fee-fees. What a soy boy

i worry he/she may actually not be trolling but is rather some old fart full of hatred and unable to move forward with anything constructive or positive. forgot about the ignore function, thanks for the reminder

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Lol. Good for you simpleton. When you got nothing to say you fall back to lobbing racist, homophobic name calling at others. So intellectually dishonest, anytime a tough topic is to be debated you run in the corner and pout instead of addressing the issue. Everyone who doesn’t agree with you is just a big meanie. 

Curius to know when you plan on heading down to the border to pass out your paycheck. You are incredibly eager to give others money away, how much have you personally contributed?  Why do you hate brown people?

You are a racist homophobe.  If I see a chicken, I call it a chicken.

What the fuck does handing out money at the border have to do with anything?  Latino immigrants provide more economic value to this country than wastes of space like you.

Why don't you put your whole paycheck towards the wall you want so bad then, slugger?

[FondrenRoad 4378]

Just now, tjhooker said:

Ok, Cool

Hook 'em!

Eat a dick, troll.  Now go cry to your mommy again.

Hook' em!

[staboner 4969]

25 minutes ago, seven said:

Yeah, it's actually quite scary how much trump people and radicalized Muslims overlap ideologically 

when thy both take hold of the average man's mind = war.

Gavrilo Princhip didn't start the goddamn war, he just gave it a day and time. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by staboner

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

42 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Weird how Tijuana never took issue with being a major illegal immigrant crossing until they actually had to start paying for the economic consequeseces. Skin in the game. Now they want them gone and are almost out of money. They also request Trump pay Mexico 20billion to “create jobs” there for the migrants. Champaign socialism is hard when you actually have to deal with your own crusade first hand instead of a 1000 miles away  

I can think of a large infrastructure project that costs about $20 billion dollars to build. And wouldn’t you know it, they are already in the correct location. 

*Champagne 

[wildcat09 29352]

Truly amazing how so many people don't understand how this shit works.

[Foosters 17851]

16 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

What has happened here my goodness.

Troll came back and most lack the self control needed to refrain from engaging him.

[Brisketexan 105099]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Truly amazing how so many people don't understand how this shit works.

They'll do EXACTLY what they did last time: ignore it and call everyone alarmists until it was too late.  Like I said, to be part of that crowd, there are only two possibilities: you are either too much a fool to see what's happening, OR you see what's happening and LIKE it.  

All of these plays have been drawn up for decades/centuries.  We're just watching them being run again, just like they were drawn up.  If you've ever read the playbook, you know exactly what's coming, and nothing this regime has done has been surprising.  And as we watch them march down the field, the response is "what are you complaining about, they haven't scored a touchdown yet!"...instead of what the response SHOULD be -- we know what play they're going to run, so let's set up the defense to stop it in its tracks.

[David Dennison 18856]

51 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Ridiculous.  You wonder why Trump won?  One of the reasons was due to backlash against this very thing.  It is so over the top.

I don't wonder why Trump won at all. I know what America is. The good news is, America is changing fast. Trump/Republican voters are already a minority. Their political power is waning and will continue to do wane after he leaves office.

Edited November 28, 2018 by David Dennison

[bad_teammate 13195]

1 hour ago, Celery Man said:

There were nazis during Obama too. But you didn’t care then.

what are you talking about?

[Chrispy 132]

22 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

What has happened here my goodness.

Have you been living under a rock? The Nazis are back. That cacophony of goose stepping and heils! pounding your eardrum is not your imagination, it’s happening. Again. 

[Brisketexan 105099]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

what are you talking about?

Well, he's being sarcastic, for one.  But he's echoing the refrain that the Trumpkins are singing.

And, it's a refrain that's relatively easy to rebut.  There have ALWAYS been evil racist pieces of shit in our society, even after the Civil Right Act etc.  But just like the cockroaches that surely live in your home, they stay hidden in the walls, and they mostly don't infect the living areas of our house.  But now, the cockroaches are coming out into the open, and are crawling all over our food and such, in broad daylight.  That's the difference.  And you don't call the exterminator when the roaches are few, and hidden.  But you definitely do when you see them running all over your kitchen.  That's the difference.  The roaches are out in the open, and they are enabled and protected by the ruling regime.

This is what we should be doing:

[lemonlime 5503]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

what are you talking about?

I'm pretty sure your sarcasm meter is broken.

[David Dennison 18856]

29 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

What has happened here my goodness.

White people are slowly losing power and it terrifies a lot of the right wing trolls.

[DDD Dad 14335]

10 minutes ago, tjhooker said:

Why dont you post the Marxist stuff Mallory spouts?

Because it's irrelevant to the point he's making?

[FondrenRoad 4378]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

They'll do EXACTLY what they did last time: ignore it and call everyone alarmists until it was too late.  Like I said, to be part of that crowd, there are only two possibilities: you are either too much a fool to see what's happening, OR you see what's happening and LIKE it.  

All of these plays have been drawn up for decades/centuries.  We're just watching them being run again, just like they were drawn up.  If you've ever read the playbook, you know exactly what's coming, and nothing this regime has done has been surprising.  And as we watch them march down the field, the response is "what are you complaining about, they haven't scored a touchdown yet!"...instead of what the response SHOULD be -- we know what play they're going to run, so let's set up the defense to stop it in its tracks.

They like it.  These aren't the Germans who didn't realize the Jews were going to get killed, and who lamented those murders after the fact.  These are the Germans that wouldn't kill Jews themselves, but don't mind at all if someone else does it.

A guy like tjhooker is going to justify right on through and after the endgame.  So will a guy like onboard.  A guy like Anastasis will wish they had done something to stop it when there was still a chance to stop it, but they are still going to "both sides" right over the precipice.

An open racist was just elected Senator of MS last night.  All these people want to maintain a white majority at any cost, but they all want someone to do their dirty work for them.  Eventually, that someone is going to come along, and it would probably be Trump if he wasn't a complete imbecile.

Edited November 28, 2018 by FondrenRoad

[DDD Dad 14335]

6 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Have you been living under a rock? The Nazis are back. That cacophony of goose stepping and heils! pounding your eardrum is not your imagination, it’s happening. Again. 

Ah yes.  The Nazis goose stepped by the thousands in the streets immediately, and Jews were sent off to the gas chambers in 1933.  JFC just stop.  

[Brisketexan 105099]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

Ah yes.  The Nazis goose stepped by the thousands in the streets immediately, and Jews were sent off to the gas chambers in 1933.  JFC just stop.  

Like I said, they deny the progression because either a) they're idiots, or b) they support the outcome.  Those are the only two choices.  Both are rather damning.