Caravan

[Chrispy 132]

We’re turning into Nazis!!!!

Just another Tuesday on Surly. 

[Anastasis 23390]

Just now, Chrispy said:

We’re turning into Nazis!!!!

Just another Tuesday on Surly. 

Apparently  our country has always been Nazis.  It just took the Orange Man for us to realize it. 

 

Next week, we come to the revelation that we are war mongers and profiteers as well. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Oh I'm sorry, sovereign borders don't matter when someone is an enemy, got it.  

"These people want to live here". So when in an attempt to live here they break federal laws and storm a closed border crossing, yeah I want those folks as fellow law abiding citizens, except when they don't feel like being law abiding. 

Yeah nothing false about my equivalency, just your decision to make exception for your pet causes. 

it was a tricky operation, because of pakistan's border was violated. i'm not convinced that pakistan wasn't advised. but yes, i would argue that when a country is housing probably one of the worst living villains, our coming to get them is to be expected.

but this is an argument about some rioters at our border, not someone who orchestrated the biggest terrorist attack on our soil. 

we have intentionally fanned the flames of this situation through trump's administration's rhetoric. we've established a policy of breaking up families when we process for asylum. we've lost kids, had kids abused in the prisons in which we house them, we've done away with any kind of background checks for the people who work in those camps, we've intentionally slowed down the number of people we take in  for processing, and we've made sure that fewer people are given asylum status. 

we've done everything we can to make this a clusterfuck, up to and including panicking the people marching and inflaming them to the point where we actually deployed tear gas across the border.

i don't think that's okay.

but i also think we should maybe think about letting them in.

[David Dennison 18646]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Apparently  our country has always been Nazis.  It just took the Orange Man for us to realize it. 

Next week, we come to the revelation that we are war mongers and profiteers as well. 

No way. Our motives are pure as the driven snow. 

Because Murica.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Next week, we come to the revelation that we are war mongers and profiteers as well. 

Since WWII that's for damn sure. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

it was a tricky operation, because of pakistan's border was violated. i'm not convinced that pakistan wasn't advised. but yes, i would argue that when a country is housing probably one of the worst living villains, our coming to get them is to be expected.

but this is an argument about some rioters at our border, not someone who orchestrated the biggest terrorist attack on our soil. 

we have intentionally fanned the flames of this situation through trump's administration's rhetoric. we've established a policy of breaking up families when we process for asylum. we've lost kids, had kids abused in the prisons in which we house them, we've done away with any kind of background checks for the people who work in those camps, we've intentionally slowed down the number of people we take in  for processing, and we've made sure that fewer people are given asylum status. 

we've done everything we can to make this a clusterfuck, up to and including panicking the people marching and inflaming them to the point where we actually deployed tear gas across the border.

i don't think that's okay.

but i also think we should maybe think about letting them in.

I am all for allowing people to enter legally when seeking asylum (we know that a huge number are not actual asylum candidates), but when they storm a border crossing, possibly causing injury to the people guarding the border. Screw that noise, tear gas is a non lethal method of stopping them.  

[Captainant 27403]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I am all for allowing people to enter legally when seeking asylum (we know that a huge number are not actual asylum candidates), but when they storm a border crossing, possibly causing injury to the people guarding the border. Screw that noise, tear gas is a non lethal method of stopping them.  

Just want to point out that the GREAT BORDER STORMING OF 2018 was a single group of roughly 500 people, who are being prosecuted and deported by the Mexican authorities. So you probably shouldn't use them as the example for why a totalitarian posture is required against all immigration and asylum applicants. That's not far off from saying all black people are criminals because there are criminal black people.

Furthermore, the asylum process starts with the assumption that you don't qualify and indeed, the majority of applicants don't receive asylum. But they are allowed to go through the process nonetheless because that's what the process was prior to the trump administration. You're justifying the pre-judgement (also known as prejudice) against them based on the actions of a statistically tiny group of the whole.

[hayden_horn 11360]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Just want to point out that the GREAT BORDER STORMING OF 2018 was a single group of roughly 500 people, who are being prosecuted and deported by the Mexican authorities. So you probably shouldn't use them as the example for why a totalitarian posture is required against all immigration and asylum applicants. That's not far off from saying all black people are criminals because there are criminal black people.

Furthermore, the asylum process starts with the assumption that you don't qualify and indeed, the majority of applicants don't receive asylum. But they are allowed to go through the process nonetheless because that's what the process was prior to the trump administration. You're justifying the pre-judgement (also known as prejudice) against them based on the actions of a statistically tiny group of the whole.

even further, there is no effort on his part to understand the WHY behind any of this. that's because he's just a binary thinker. "bad people break laws, give them the gas and the rubber bullets, and don't discriminate, these people are going to change our way of life; we must stop them all!"

[Kyle 207]

1 hour ago, Smax said:

because asylum in mexico isn't what they are seeking, they want to be in america and they want it now!

Anyone that is pro-illegal immigration have a POV?

If these folks genuinely are seeking asylum from political persecution in Central America, then accepting Mexico's offer (which is rare from Mexico, which has a much tougher stance on illegal immigration than the U.S.) seems like the perfect answer as well as less disruptively culturally.

It seems to check all of the moral, ethical, and political boxes, so why does not everyone get behind this solution? It does not seem like anyone could quibble with this.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

12 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Just want to point out that the GREAT BORDER STORMING OF 2018 was a single group of roughly 500 people, who are being prosecuted and deported by the Mexican authorities. So you probably shouldn't use them as the example for why a totalitarian posture is required against all immigration and asylum applicants. That's not far off from saying all black people are criminals because there are criminal black people.

Furthermore, the asylum process starts with the assumption that you don't qualify and indeed, the majority of applicants don't receive asylum. But they are allowed to go through the process nonetheless because that's what the process was prior to the trump administration. You're justifying the pre-judgement (also known as prejudice) against them based on the actions of a statistically tiny group of the whole.

Border crossing is closed so you decide to breach it and you get tear gas lobbed at you. Don't start shit won't be shit. It simply does not matter why the crossing was closed. They attempted to break it down and come thru.

Sorry Moose out front should have told ya what the word closed means.

[hayden_horn 11360]

somebody already posted this, but i think he hits the nail on the head.

why don't we just let them in?

[Captainant 27403]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Border crossing is closed so you decide to breach it and you get tear gas lobbed at you. Don't start shit won't be shit. It simply does not matter why the crossing was closed. They attempted to break it down and come thru.

Sorry Moose out front should have told ya what the word closed means.

imgur

I'm not arguing that the people who stormed the border should face no consequences. They're currently being charged and deported by Mexico so the US doesn't. You're ignoring my point that you're justifying prejudice against a large group based on the actions of a few, and prior to the trump admin these issues weren't issues because we had a fucking process and didn't fuck with it to make brown people's lives more difficult.

[staboner 4956]

the Fox news pinata 

well Geraldo, that is what you are. glad you spoke up. 

hope you can speak up more often around the misery that Fox news preaches on any number of issues it chooses, as it further divides this nation. 

[DixonHur 11154]

Geez, this thread really went off the rails.  I think folks on both sides...yes, I said it...need to dial back the hyperbole.

1. The Border Patrol said they used pepper spray canisters, yet people continue to call it Tear Gas.  It may we'll have been Tear Gas, but until actual physical evidence shows it was Tear Gas I'm going to assume it was Pepper Spray, because Lord knows I don't trust a journalist to know the difference...I think the term Tear Gas is used as a catch all phrase by the media anytime they see a canister with noxious fumes coming out.

2. Trump has facist ideals, I don't think anyone could use facts to argue otherwise, but what happened at the border when migrants tried to overrun it was not facist, nor was it Hitler-esque.  It was the use of non-lethal weapons to disperse an unruly mob.  Hell, the same tactic is used when victory parades get out of hand.  Not to mention anyone who's been through bootcamp has been Tear Gased...it's unpleasant as hell, but it's not life altering.

And stop bringing up the separation of children from their parents on this thread.  I think that policy is terrible no matter who the President happens to be, but it has fuck all to do with the events in Tijuana.

Most of you know that I hate Trump with a burning passion, but I just don't see how any reasonable person could blame him for the use of non-lethal force over the weekend.  

In fact the opposite is probably true.  Remember, he authorized the use of deadly force...which is assinine, by the way.

[Captainant 27403]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Geez, this thread really went off the rails.  I think folks on both sides...yes, I said it...need to dial back the hyperbole.

1. The Border Patrol said they used pepper spray canisters, yet people continue to call it Tear Gas.  It may we'll have been Tear Gas, but until actual physical evidence shows it was Tear Gas I'm going to assume it was Pepper Spray, because Lord knows I don't trust a journalist to know the difference...I think the term Tear Gas is used as a catch all phrase by the media anytime they see a canister with noxious fumes coming out.

2. Trump has facist ideals, I don't think anyone could use facts to argue otherwise, but what happened at the border when migrants tried to overrun it was not facist, nor was it Hitler-esque.  It was the use of non-lethal weapons to disperse an unruly mob.  Hell, the same tactic is used when victory parades get out of hand.  Not to mention anyone who's been through bootcamp has been Tear Gased...it's unpleasant as hell, but it's not life altering.

And stop bringing up the separation of children from their parents on this thread.  I think that policy is terrible no matter who the President happens to be, but it has fuck all to do with the events in Tijuana.

Most of you know that I hate Trump with a burning passion, but I just don't see how any reasonable person could blame him for the use of non-lethal force over the weekend.  

In fact the opposite is probably true.  Remember, he authorized the use of deadly force...which is assinine, by the way.

This is a pretty reasonable take IMO. The reason why folks are laying it at the feet of trump is that HE closed the border arbitrarily and started stirring the pot first. So it's fucked up that he's acting like he's done nothing unusual to cause the events. Because the border wouldn't have stormed if there was no reason to storm it (if the border was open like it always is)

[DixonHur 11154]

Just now, Captainant said:

This is a pretty reasonable take IMO. The reason why folks are laying it at the feet of trump is that HE closed the border arbitrarily and started stirring the pot first. So it's fucked up that he's acting like he's done nothing unusual to cause the events. Because the border wouldn't have stormed if there was no reason to storm it (if the border was open like it always is)

That's not true.  The border was closed AFTER the attempted border rush.  Trump talked and Tweeted about doing it, but he didn't.  Also, early in the thread I posted an article from several days before the event in which a group of migrants said they planned to rush the border.

Trump's rhetoric is ridiculously unhelpful, and I honestly believe the migrants (actually most likely a few instigators) wanted to use the border rush as a way to play on emotions...of which side, I don't know.  Of course those who instigated (assuming it happened) we're probably not migrants and likely were long gone by the time shit went down.

[Sgt Hulk 13642]

....

Edited November 27, 2018 by Sgt Hulk
asking a question in here is not a good idea

[DixonHur 11154]

8 minutes ago, Sgt Hulk said:

....

Being in here is a bad idea, yet I can't seem to stay away. 😎

[Brisketexan 104537]

2 minutes ago, Sgt Hulk said:

because trumpkins  thats why 

 

So many brilliant folks in here.    What do you folks that obviously care a ton about this propose?  No one in the world seems to have a solution, they just lob insults, type away furiously on their keyboard, but do nothing about it.   So if you can take a moment from hating one another, or hating anyone that differs in opinion for you,  what is the proposed solution?

REalistic too, not just free passage in to do as they please.  I'm sorry I didnt read 17 pages of name calling but honestly curious. no one else in the social media world has a solution they are just on the hype train for and against. 

Dixon Hur and I have each posted suggested solutions for the immigration issue that are rather similar.  Short form: robust and well-documented guest worker program with taxes and fees paid, fair and prompt asylum process, electronic monitoring of persons free while applications are being processed, etc.  Oh, and efforts to address the problem where it starts -- help stabilize nations to our south, instead of destabilizing them with meddling and drug wars - so that not as many people want/need to migrate (we don't have a huge problem with folks from Canada coming over, because they have it just fine up there in Saskatchewan, even if a bit cold).  We don't have to re-invent the wheel.  There's a crapload of green space between acting like cruel, xenophobic dicks and "open borders!" 

Hell, see GWB's immigration approach early in his administration (which was shot down like a Polish biplane in 1939).  We can be decent human beings, treat people humanely, manage the flow of a large item in any economy (labor), and have a relatively secure border (no border is 100% secure, so don't set that as your benchmark -- we aren't going to be East Germany, nor should we, and even then, folks got out).

None of which will ever happen, so it doesn't make a shit.  Brown people are too valuable as a bogeyman.  Can't lose that.

[Anastasis 23390]

Just now, Sgt Hulk said:

because trumpkins  thats why 

 

So many brilliant folks in here.    What do you folks that obviously care a ton about this propose?  No one in the world seems to have a solution, they just lob insults, type away furiously on their keyboard, but do nothing about it.   So if you can take a moment from hating one another, or hating anyone that differs in opinion for you,  what is the proposed solution?

REalistic too, not just free passage in to do as they please.  I'm sorry I didnt read 17 pages of name calling but honestly curious. no one else in the social media world has a solution they are just on the hype train for and against. 

It really isn't that hard in a political environment that isn't completely dysfunctional.  In immediate term, mobilize resources to the border to efficiently process asylum applications at ports of entry.  Don't separate families applying for asylum at ports of entry. Illegal entry at non POE results in immediate administrative deportation ({but still avoid locking children in cages during the process). Legit asylum cases get asylum treatment, non legit cases get deported back to country of origin. In medium term, congress gets thumb out of their ass. Address dreamers legislatively, invest in border security, address a worker entry program legislatively. In long term, stop fucking destabilizing central american countries. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

posreps to @Brisketexan and @Anastasis

i know it's radical.

but i think maybe we should just let them in.

[Longhornfan1024 1707]

Let's just be clear.  

It's not wrong to protect the border.

It's not wrong for our border patrol agents to protect themselves.  

It's not wrong to use non-lethal means while doing so as long as it doesn't otherwise violate the law (it's still unclear whether this violates international law).

But it's all kinds of fucked up to do so when there are innocent children present and they get hit by tear gas or pepper spray or whatever it was.  The adult migrants who were acting inappropriately were not acting in a manner that created a serious risk to the lives of the agents on duty.  The risk that some of those adult migrants may get across the border and then be arrested and request asylum is not anywhere close to extreme enough to justify using tear gas/pepper spray on fucking innocent children.  It never is, and anyone who thinks keeping some migrants out of the country justifies using tear gas on children needs to seriously reassess their values.  

[DixonHur 11154]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

In long term, stop fucking destabilizing  countries. 

Fixy

[zork 629]

Think of the children; pepper balls to the balls:

imgur

[Brisketexan 104537]

Look, I'm agreeing with Anastasis.  Not just on big picture, but even on details.  Wacky stuff.  

[Sgt Hulk 13642]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Dixon Hur and I have each posted suggested solutions for the immigration issue that are rather similar.  Short form: robust and well-documented guest worker program with taxes and fees paid, fair and prompt asylum process, electronic monitoring of persons free while applications are being processed, etc.  Oh, and efforts to address the problem where it starts -- help stabilize nations to our south, instead of destabilizing them with meddling and drug wars - so that not as many people want/need to migrate (we don't have a huge problem with folks from Canada coming over, because they have it just fine up there in Saskatchewan, even if a bit cold).  We don't have to re-invent the wheel.  There's a crapload of green space between acting like cruel, xenophobic dicks and "open borders!" 

Hell, see GWB's immigration approach early in his administration (which was shot down like a Polish biplane in 1939).  We can be decent human beings, treat people humanely, manage the flow of a large item in any economy (labor), and have a relatively secure border (no border is 100% secure, so don't set that as your benchmark -- we aren't going to be East Germany, nor should we, and even then, folks got out).

None of which will ever happen, so it doesn't make a shit.  Brown people are too valuable as a bogeyman.  Can't lose that.

Sounds like a lot of money and resources, plus expecting the government to be able to track anything is a reach, but commendable.  Finding these folks jobs, commesurate with skillset will be a challenge which will lead to an increase in costs.  The stabilization part will cost a ton too, espeically for the crowd that already hates on us for being involved in the middle east for the last 10000 years.   the borwn people are bad bit is tired and seems to only come from surly. I dont get it.  But i assume disagreeing will have me called all the usual names here.  I don't have an answer, I know that every country ive traveled too had a strict immigration process that I had to go through, i'd say mirror those but that isnt a good idea either.  I just dont have an answer, but I also done believe everything the media is feeding us, theyve dont enough to divide everyone.    But at least its a start   your idea.  thank you for the reply 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Sgt Hulk

[DixonHur 11154]

4 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

Let's just be clear.  

It's not wrong to protect the border.

It's not wrong for our border patrol agents to protect themselves.  

It's not wrong to use non-lethal means while doing so as long as it doesn't otherwise violate the law (it's still unclear whether this violates international law).

But it's all kinds of fucked up to do so when there are innocent children present and they get hit by tear gas or pepper spray or whatever it was.  The adult migrants who were acting inappropriately were not acting in a manner that created a serious risk to the lives of the agents on duty.  The risk that some of those adult migrants may get across the border and then be arrested and request asylum is not anywhere close to extreme enough to justify using tear gas/pepper spray on fucking innocent children.  It never is, and anyone who thinks keeping some migrants out of the country justifies using tear gas on children needs to seriously reassess their values.  

How can you shoot women and children?

Easy, ya just don't lead them as much.

I know, it's fucked up that that's where my mind went while reading your post 

[staboner 4956]

I was with W in 200-something when he said "fuck it" they are here, give em papers and lets get smarter about the next waves. thought that was the most adult goddamn thing to do. of course it was shot down (like a Polish bi-lane lulz)

Our country not being able to communicate IS THE PROBLEM. 500 desperate immigrants - not so much.

Therefore - Trumps shitty rhetoric IS THE PROBLEM. because its mobilizing inaction @Smax and other posters commenting that we are blowing this out of proportion and we have the right to defend our borders. Of course we do. Open your eyes and brain. There is a very big problem at hand and it needs all of us to communicate. 

end drug war, beef up border security, guest worker program. they should all be on the table. But as we know - the US government doesn't have a table to put shit on. We are completely dysfunctional 

[DDD Dad 14243]

Y'all remember when we sent away a ship full of Jewish Germans (mostly) seeking asylum from Nazi Germany because they didn't wait their turn?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-39857056/the-jewish-refugees-the-us-turned-away

 

254 of them (nearly 1/3 of the total number of passengers) died in Nazi death camps.

[zork 629]

254 could be handled in about a week or so if they waited their turn today.  Was it FDR that turned them back?  The amnesty process is still going on.  Wait your turn.  Pretty simple.

[Sgt Hulk 13642]

6 minutes ago, staboner said:

I was with W in 200-something when he said "fuck it" they are here, give em papers and lets get smarter about the next waves. thought that was the most adult goddamn thing to do. of course it was shot down (like a Polish bi-lane lulz)

Our country not being able to communicate IS THE PROBLEM. 500 desperate immigrants - not so much.

Therefore - Trumps shitty rhetoric IS THE PROBLEM. because its mobilizing inaction @Smax and other posters commenting that we are blowing this out of proportion and we have the right to defend our borders. Of course we do. Open your eyes and brain. There is a very big problem at hand and it needs all of us to communicate. 

end drug war, beef up border security, guest worker program. they should all be on the table. But as we know - the US government doesn't have a table to put shit on. We are completely dysfunctional 

concur

[lemonlime 5503]

This.  It's impossible to separate the rhetoric and demagoguery from what's actually happening and what needs to take place.  Trump is acting vilely with respect to brown immigrants.  And it's impossible to separate apart the inflammatory rhetoric from the  child separation policy from the administration's lies from lobbing tear gas across the border.  These aren't unrelated, completely separate things.  Then Trump and his sycophants ask why others aren't being reasonable and willing to discuss rational immigration policies.  I would agree almost entirely with the proposals given by DixonHur, Brisket, and Anastasis.  But when the conversation is being had in the setting of whipped up hysteria about caravans, anchor babies, and MS-13, while the administration is putting in place a child separation policy and lying about it, there's no way there can be any movement on rational immigration policies.  Hell, Trump is doing his level best to guarantee that there won't be a rational discussion or any solution, and he can continue to demagogue this issue.

The starting point right now is just to get beyond abject cruelty.

Edited November 27, 2018 by lemonlime
in response to what Staboner posted

[Brisketexan 104537]

2 minutes ago, Sgt Hulk said:

Sounds like a lot of money and resources, plus expecting the government to be able to track anything is a reach, but commendable.  Finding these folks jobs, commesurate with skillset will be a challenge which will lead to an increase in costs.  The stabilization part will cost a ton too, espeically for the crowd that already hates on us for being involved in the middle east for the last 10000 years.   the borwn people are bad bit is tired and seems to only come from surly. I dont get it.  But i assume disagreeing will have me called all the usual names here.  I don't have an answer, I know that every country ive traveled too had a strict immigration process that I had to go through, i'd say mirror those but that isnt a good idea either.  I just dont have an answer, but I also done believe everything the media is feeding us, theyve dont enough to divide everyone.    But at least its a start   your idea.  thank you for the reply 

"Sounds like a lot of money and resources, plus expecting the government to be able to track anything is a reach, but commendable." - People coming over here are paying a coyote $5k to get them across.  Imagine if they just paid $1k each to secure a proper work permit.  There's a hunk of revenue right there.  Now, reduce the costs of immigration enforcement, because we won't have as many folks crossing illegally.  Cost savings to boot.  Tracking is simple: your work permit is for a set period of time.  Before it expires, you need to present it to immigration officials verifying that you are leaving the country, or present it in person to an immigration official for renewal (depending on how renewable we make them, under what conditions, etc.).  Failure to do so results in 1) non-renewal of the work permit and 2) a bar to any further re-entry and work permit, ever again.

"Finding these folks jobs, commesurate with skillset will be a challenge which will lead to an increase in costs."  Wait...I thought the problem was that they are taking all of our jobs?  And, to look around, I can tell you that the brown folks aren't having a problem finding work.  Go to any new subdivision being built.  Go to the back of the house in a restaurant.  They're plenty employed.  Seriously, even the least employable are generally pretty employable.  Hell, we have helped an illiterate Afghani single mom, and after a year, she was fully self-supporting of her and her two kids.  And she's about as "least employable" as you can get.

"The stabilization part will cost a ton too, espeically for the crowd that already hates on us for being involved in the middle east for the last 10000 years."  It doesn't have to be perfect, just better than it is.  The best part is, the easiest step is one that SAVES us billions -- just end the war on drugs.  Take away the value of the black market for narcos, and Mexico and Central America would improve by leaps and bounds in short order.  As for the amount of assistance, it really doesn't take a lot.  And again, a dollar of prevention saves two dollars of enforcement.  It's going to be the more cost-effective path.

What folks fail to realize is that we have had a functional immigration system and southern border in the recent past (seriously, in my lifetime).  It pre-dated the war on drugs - that's a biggie.  We're actually at that strange place where doing the decent/humane thing and doing the fiscally and security responsible thing are THE SAME THING.  Which actually means that it can't get done -- because unless it makes people suffer, than it doesn't satisfy those folks who wanna be "TOUGH ON IMMIGRATION!"  It's myopic and simplistic, but fuck, at this point, we might as well print "myopic and simplistic" on all our coinage.  Cause we sure as shit don't "in God we trust."

 

[Dahobbs 17420]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

"Sounds like a lot of money and resources, plus expecting the government to be able to track anything is a reach, but commendable." - People coming over here are paying a coyote $5k to get them across.  Imagine if they just paid $1k each to secure a proper work permit.  There's a hunk of revenue right there.  Now, reduce the costs of immigration enforcement, because we won't have as many folks crossing illegally.  Cost savings to boot.  Tracking is simple: your work permit is for a set period of time.  Before it expires, you need to present it to immigration officials verifying that you are leaving the country, or present it in person to an immigration official for renewal (depending on how renewable we make them, under what conditions, etc.).  Failure to do so results in 1) non-renewal of the work permit and 2) a bar to any further re-entry and work permit, ever again.

"Finding these folks jobs, commesurate with skillset will be a challenge which will lead to an increase in costs."  Wait...I thought the problem was that they are taking all of our jobs?  And, to look around, I can tell you that the brown folks aren't having a problem finding work.  Go to any new subdivision being built.  Go to the back of the house in a restaurant.  They're plenty employed.  Seriously, even the least employable are generally pretty employable.  Hell, we have helped an illiterate Afghani single mom, and after a year, she was fully self-supporting of her and her two kids.  And she's about as "least employable" as you can get.

"The stabilization part will cost a ton too, espeically for the crowd that already hates on us for being involved in the middle east for the last 10000 years."  It doesn't have to be perfect, just better than it is.  The best part is, the easiest step is one that SAVES us billions -- just end the war on drugs.  Take away the value of the black market for narcos, and Mexico and Central America would improve by leaps and bounds in short order.  As for the amount of assistance, it really doesn't take a lot.  And again, a dollar of prevention saves two dollars of enforcement.  It's going to be the more cost-effective path.

What folks fail to realize is that we have had a functional immigration system and southern border in the recent past (seriously, in my lifetime).  It pre-dated the war on drugs - that's a biggie.  We're actually at that strange place where doing the decent/humane thing and doing the fiscally and security responsible thing are THE SAME THING.  Which actually means that it can't get done -- because unless it makes people suffer, than it doesn't satisfy those folks who wanna be "TOUGH ON IMMIGRATION!"  It's myopic and simplistic, but fuck, at this point, we might as well print "myopic and simplistic" on all our coinage.  Cause we sure as shit don't "in God we trust."

 

Do you ever get tired of being right?  I'm sure you have been wrong on this board (or the other one) at some point, but I'll be damned if I can remember when. 

[Sgt Hulk 13642]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

"Sounds like a lot of money and resources, plus expecting the government to be able to track anything is a reach, but commendable." - People coming over here are paying a coyote $5k to get them across.  Imagine if they just paid $1k each to secure a proper work permit.  There's a hunk of revenue right there.  Now, reduce the costs of immigration enforcement, because we won't have as many folks crossing illegally.  Cost savings to boot.  Tracking is simple: your work permit is for a set period of time.  Before it expires, you need to present it to immigration officials verifying that you are leaving the country, or present it in person to an immigration official for renewal (depending on how renewable we make them, under what conditions, etc.).  Failure to do so results in 1) non-renewal of the work permit and 2) a bar to any further re-entry and work permit, ever again.

"Finding these folks jobs, commesurate with skillset will be a challenge which will lead to an increase in costs."  Wait...I thought the problem was that they are taking all of our jobs?  And, to look around, I can tell you that the brown folks aren't having a problem finding work.  Go to any new subdivision being built.  Go to the back of the house in a restaurant.  They're plenty employed.  Seriously, even the least employable are generally pretty employable.  Hell, we have helped an illiterate Afghani single mom, and after a year, she was fully self-supporting of her and her two kids.  And she's about as "least employable" as you can get.

"The stabilization part will cost a ton too, espeically for the crowd that already hates on us for being involved in the middle east for the last 10000 years."  It doesn't have to be perfect, just better than it is.  The best part is, the easiest step is one that SAVES us billions -- just end the war on drugs.  Take away the value of the black market for narcos, and Mexico and Central America would improve by leaps and bounds in short order.  As for the amount of assistance, it really doesn't take a lot.  And again, a dollar of prevention saves two dollars of enforcement.  It's going to be the more cost-effective path.

What folks fail to realize is that we have had a functional immigration system and southern border in the recent past (seriously, in my lifetime).  It pre-dated the war on drugs - that's a biggie.  We're actually at that strange place where doing the decent/humane thing and doing the fiscally and security responsible thing are THE SAME THING.  Which actually means that it can't get done -- because unless it makes people suffer, than it doesn't satisfy those folks who wanna be "TOUGH ON IMMIGRATION!"  It's myopic and simplistic, but fuck, at this point, we might as well print "myopic and simplistic" on all our coinage.  Cause we sure as shit don't "in God we trust."

 

Ahhh I misread the first part, i didnt see you were proposing they pay the fees for the permit. I wonder what percentage would return, verses the ones who say F it im here and "bolt" for lack of a better word  

We know this country sucks at providing a livable wage, I guess that was the line I meant, obtaining a job that pays enough to be self sufficient and not on welfare, or assistance. Aside from general laborers 

Yes war on drugs is the biggest waste of anything in the history of planet, pure joke

thank you 

[Brisketexan 104537]

1 minute ago, Sgt Hulk said:

I wonder what percentage would return, verses the ones who say F it im here and "bolt" for lack of a better word  

We know this country sucks at providing a livable wage, I guess that was the line I meant, obtaining a job that pays enough to be self sufficient and not on welfare, or assistance. Aside from general laborers 

In my experience with illegal mexican laborers, they'd MUCH prefer to be able to do so legally, breathe easy when they go out to grab a bite to eat or supplies for the job, etc.  And they often WANT to go back home -- they used to be able to.  But, ironically, once we "toughened up" the system, we made it so that once they were here, they don't risk going back home at all, because they might not be able to get back to the US to work again.  I think that the obedience/performance rate on a good work permit program would be quite high.  And, again, if the penalty for violation is "you never get a work permit again," that's a strong incentive to stay on the straight and narrow.

And yeah, we suck as to a living wage...but at the same time...4 guys share a dumpy apartment, hang drywall, and have enough to pay rent, cook out on the weekend to watch the Chivas match, AND send money home to their families in Guadalajara.  It can be done.  It's being done by several million folks right now.  And, take them out from under the threat of deportation, and they could work even more.  Hell, if a condition of your work permit is, you know, "work," it pretty much filters out dependency.  

Seriously.  4 Surly posters, given a full work day, could draft a pretty solid plan with a fair level of detail that would address the relevant concerns.  But nothing even close to that is happening.  Ask yourself why.

[Captainant 27403]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Seriously.  4 Surly posters, given a full work day, could draft a pretty solid plan with a fair level of detail that would address the relevant concerns.  But nothing even close to that is happening.  Ask yourself why.

Sounds like soy boys at work amirite

[wildcat09 29213]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

In my experience with illegal mexican laborers, they'd MUCH prefer to be able to do so legally, breathe easy when they go out to grab a bite to eat or supplies for the job, etc.  And they often WANT to go back home -- they used to be able to.  But, ironically, once we "toughened up" the system, we made it so that once they were here, they don't risk going back home at all, because they might not be able to get back to the US to work again.  I think that the obedience/performance rate on a good work permit program would be quite high.  And, again, if the penalty for violation is "you never get a work permit again," that's a strong incentive to stay on the straight and narrow.

 And yeah, we suck as to a living wage...but at the same time...4 guys share a dumpy apartment, hang drywall, and have enough to pay rent, cook out on the weekend to watch the Chivas match, AND send money home to their families in Guadalajara.  It can be done.  It's being done by several million folks right now.  And, take them out from under the threat of deportation, and they could work even more.  Hell, if a condition of your work permit is, you know, "work," it pretty much filters out dependency.  

 Seriously.  4 Surly posters, given a full work day, could draft a pretty solid plan with a fair level of detail that would address the relevant concerns.  But nothing even close to that is happening.  Ask yourself why.

What rate are we billing?

[FondrenRoad 4378]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

In my experience with illegal mexican laborers, they'd MUCH prefer to be able to do so legally, breathe easy when they go out to grab a bite to eat or supplies for the job, etc.  And they often WANT to go back home -- they used to be able to.  But, ironically, once we "toughened up" the system, we made it so that once they were here, they don't risk going back home at all, because they might not be able to get back to the US to work again.  I think that the obedience/performance rate on a good work permit program would be quite high.  And, again, if the penalty for violation is "you never get a work permit again," that's a strong incentive to stay on the straight and narrow.

And yeah, we suck as to a living wage...but at the same time...4 guys share a dumpy apartment, hang drywall, and have enough to pay rent, cook out on the weekend to watch the Chivas match, AND send money home to their families in Guadalajara.  It can be done.  It's being done by several million folks right now.  And, take them out from under the threat of deportation, and they could work even more.  Hell, if a condition of your work permit is, you know, "work," it pretty much filters out dependency.  

Seriously.  4 Surly posters, given a full work day, could draft a pretty solid plan with a fair level of detail that would address the relevant concerns.  But nothing even close to that is happening.  Ask yourself why.

It isn't happening because anti-immigrant fervor was never about work.  Hell, Trump himself probably employs 100s of illegal immigrants.  No Americans want to pick fruit, work in a meat packing plant, hustle for work at Home Depot, or be busboys.  Its about the women those 4 guys date who may get knocked up and give the guy a US citizen child, thereby tethering him and the baby's mama permanently to the USA.  And even there, it isn't about "all" immigrants.  Its about brown ones.

They don't give a shit at all if Europeans come here, overstay visas, work illegally, meet women, and have babies.  There isn't an Irish pub in NYC that doesn't have someone of questionable legal status working at it.  An Irish immigrant killed someone in a bar fight only a few days ago in NYC.  Somehow, in every single comment section where that news was posted, there wasn't a single mention of immigration being the problem or of Irish immigrants in particular being a problem.  Instead, dude was just drunk and made a mistake.  Thoughts and prayers to both families.  You should see the comments sections when a Latino immigrant makes a similar ill advised drunken decision, even a Latino who is multigenerational American.

[zork 629]

Maybe it is a New Yorker thing:

Quote

...

Assistant Secretary of State Breckinridge Long, a personal friend of President Roosevelt, was in charge of 23 of the State Department’s 42 divisions, including the visa section. In a June 26, 1940 memo, Long advised his colleagues: 

“We can delay and effectively stop for a temporary period of indefinite length the number of immigrants into the United States…by simply advising our consuls to put every obstacle in the way and to require additional evidence and to resort to various administrative devices, which would postpone and postpone and postpone the granting of the visas.” 

...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/22102

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 minutes ago, zork said:

Maybe it is a New Yorker thing:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/22102

Someone in 1940 was shitty!  We should stay shitty for all time because of it!

[zork 629]

Just now, FondrenRoad said:

Someone in 1940 was shitty!  We should stay shitty for all time because of it!

Both rich, privileged, New Yorkers.  Although I am guessing FDR didn't have a Jewish son-in-law.

[Buzzrock 14870]

58 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

In my experience with illegal mexican laborers, they'd MUCH prefer to be able to do so legally, breathe easy when they go out to grab a bite to eat or supplies for the job, etc.  And they often WANT to go back home -- they used to be able to.  But, ironically, once we "toughened up" the system, we made it so that once they were here, they don't risk going back home at all, because they might not be able to get back to the US to work again.  I think that the obedience/performance rate on a good work permit program would be quite high.  And, again, if the penalty for violation is "you never get a work permit again," that's a strong incentive to stay on the straight and narrow.

And yeah, we suck as to a living wage...but at the same time...4 guys share a dumpy apartment, hang drywall, and have enough to pay rent, cook out on the weekend to watch the Chivas match, AND send money home to their families in Guadalajara.  It can be done.  It's being done by several million folks right now.  And, take them out from under the threat of deportation, and they could work even more.  Hell, if a condition of your work permit is, you know, "work," it pretty much filters out dependency.  

Seriously.  4 Surly posters, given a full work day, could draft a pretty solid plan with a fair level of detail that would address the relevant concerns.  But nothing even close to that is happening.  Ask yourself why.

Sorry if you covered this, but would those who obtain the work permit have to pay taxes of any sort?

[lemonlime 5503]

2 minutes ago, zork said:

Both rich, privileged, New Yorkers.  Although I am guessing FDR didn't have a Jewish son-in-law.

You understand that this is why the Refugee Act was passed in 1980?  To stop what happened when FDR delayed visas and people were killed from happening again.

 

[Captainant 27403]

5 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Sorry if you covered this, but would those who obtain the work permit have to pay taxes of any sort?

Payroll taxes are the easiest way to collect those my dude. It'd be pretty straightforward to require those be paid no matter what (no allowances in withholdings, etc) for work permit people. Then if the government over-collects, they get it back as a refund and they get to enjoy the free loan to the government like the majority of the country does. Simple problems, my dude. Rather than put the onus of compliance with the workers, force the employers who want to exploit this new labor market to comply.

[Buzzrock 14870]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Payroll taxes are the easiest way to collect those my dude. It'd be pretty straightforward to require those be paid no matter what (no allowances in withholdings, etc) for work permit people. Then if the government over-collects, they get it back as a refund and they get to enjoy the free loan to the government like the majority of the country does. Simple problems, my dude. Rather than put the onus of compliance with the workers, force the employers who want to exploit this new labor market to comply.

OK. But the problem with that is that you are likely still going to have those who either don't have or don't want to pay the $1K for the work permit, cross illegally, and work for a lower wage than the rule-followers but pay no taxes and cost the hiring party nothing in taxes. I would think that any plan would have to support cracking down on those who continue to come here illegally once there is a better work-permit plan in place.

 

[Captainant 27403]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

OK. But the problem with that is that you are likely still going to have those who either don't have or don't want to pay the $1K for the work permit, cross illegally, and work for a lower wage than the rule-followers but pay no taxes and cost the hiring party nothing in taxes. I would think that any plan would have to support cracking down on those who continue to come here illegally once there is a better work-permit plan in place.

Let's focus on fixing the system before we devise ways to punish people for failing to follow it. Fair? 

[Buzzrock 14870]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Let's focus on fixing the system before we devise ways to punish people for failing to follow it. Fair? 

If people would rather circumvent the new system, is it fixed?

[Captainant 27403]

Just now, Buzzrock said:

If people would rather circumvent the new system, is it fixed?

You're so worried about poking holes in any solution, I'd almost think you like things better the way they are. There's never going to be a perfect solution, only better ones than we have now. 

The real question to ask is: what goals do you want to accomplish? Do you want to document these people so the government knows who's coming in and out of the country? Do you want to be able to tax their labor so the govt can get some of its cheese? Do you want fewer children getting locked up in a camp that's ran by people without background checks?

[Dahobbs 17420]

7 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

OK. But the problem with that is that you are likely still going to have those who either don't have or don't want to pay the $1K for the work permit, cross illegally, and work for a lower wage than the rule-followers but pay no taxes and cost the hiring party nothing in taxes. I would think that any plan would have to support cracking down on those who continue to come here illegally once there is a better work-permit plan in place.

 

Uh, do we really have a problem with illegal workers not paying taxes even now? Because, as far as I know, the vast majority of them do so. Why would that be any different in the reformed system?