Caravan

[GHOSTUSER 361]

6 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

loose border liberals.

you've tipped your hand, mr both sides.

and it isn't hyperbole. there are parallels. they are never going to be exact. and we will very likely never end up at death camps. at least, i don't believe so. 

but this is sort of like being in a crowd that's on the edge of getting ugly. we've all been there. i remember the mardi gras riot here in austin in i think 2001. you got a sense of electricity going through the air. the cops were spoiling for a fight. they were clearly fucking sick and tired of policing mardi gras. they were looking for a reason to shut this thing down. 

and they did just that. the problem became when it became apparent to the gathered crowd the cops had an inherent hostility. then the crowd came in with a massive fuck you and we ended up with a situation that it's hard to believe ever happened in austin, texas. it was a full on riot. police waded into the crowd of mostly onlookers and just started wantonly beating people about the head and shoulders. they sprayed pepper spray indiscriminately. it really felt like we were under attack from the police. and most of us hadn't done anything to warrant such a reaction.

to this day, if i'm in a crowd, i keep an eye out for the warning signals i saw that night in austin. just because it is very unlikely to happen again doesn't mean i did not learn from what happened that night. this is kind of like that. if i even get a whiff of that vibe, i peace out, even if it is unlikely to blossom into the chaos of that night.

Didn’t a poor UT student lose an eye because he got shot in the face with a bean bag or something. That pissed me off a lot when it happened.

[zork 629]

18 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

You understand that this is why the Refugee Act was passed in 1980?  To stop what happened when FDR delayed visas and people were killed from happening again.

 

Amnesty program is still going on if you are willing to wait your turn and if you qualify.  

BTW there were more acts after the one you mentioned and discussion in 2007 was timely then as now:

Quote

...

Senator Charles E. Grassley, Republican of Iowa, said he regretted voting for the 1986 measure.

“I thought then that taking care of three million people illegally in the country would solve the problem once and for all,” Mr. Grassley said. “I found out, however, if you reward illegality, you get more of it. Today, as everybody has generally agreed, we have 12 million people here illegally.”

The 1986 law was a product of more than five years’ work by Senator Alan K. Simpson, Republican of Wyoming, and Representative Romano L. Mazzoli, Democrat of Kentucky. Both left Congress more than a decade ago.

Senator Byron L. Dorgan, Democrat of North Dakota, said: “I was here in Congress in 1986. I heard all the promises of the Simpson-Mazzoli Act. None of them were true, and three million people got amnesty. There was no border security to speak of, no employer sanctions to speak of, and there was no enforcement.”

Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, said: “The American people were sold a bill of goods. It didn’t work. We got an amnesty, and we got no enforcement. That is why people are so distrustful now.”

One of Mr. Bush’s “first principles,” as described in a White House planning document, is, “Do not repeat the 1986 failure.” He and other supporters of the current Senate bill say it puts enforcement first this time.

...

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/12/washington/12immig.html

Long history, this topic.

[hayden_horn 11,360]

1 minute ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Didn’t a poor UT student lose an eye because he got shot in the face with a bean bag or something. That pissed me off a lot when it happened.

i cannot remember if they lost the eye, but yeah, that is a definite memory. i think it was a rubber bullet, not a bean bag.

those cops came to start a fight, and you'll never convince me otherwise. mardi gras was getting a bit out of control, and the city wanted it shut down. they flat out canceled the actual mardi gras parade on tuesday. i'm certain that was the outcome they wanted.

[Brisketexan 104,463]

27 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Sorry if you covered this, but would those who obtain the work permit have to pay taxes of any sort?

 

20 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Payroll taxes are the easiest way to collect those my dude. It'd be pretty straightforward to require those be paid no matter what (no allowances in withholdings, etc) for work permit people. Then if the government over-collects, they get it back as a refund and they get to enjoy the free loan to the government like the majority of the country does. Simple problems, my dude. Rather than put the onus of compliance with the workers, force the employers who want to exploit this new labor market to comply.

Yep, question answered.  People here on work visas RIGHT NOW pay taxes.  Just add these folks to that system.

14 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

OK. But the problem with that is that you are likely still going to have those who either don't have or don't want to pay the $1K for the work permit, cross illegally, and work for a lower wage than the rule-followers but pay no taxes and cost the hiring party nothing in taxes. I would think that any plan would have to support cracking down on those who continue to come here illegally once there is a better work-permit plan in place.

 

Sure.  And if you set up a "nobody can come in, ever, ever, ever," you are STILL going to have some guy sneak in by digging a tunnel from Cuba or whatever.  That's not an argument against a fix.  The point is, our proposal STRONGLY dis-incentivizes violations.  Think about it -- $1k is almost always going to be CHEAPER than the cost of illegal transit.  AND, it buys you certainty and security.  You don't have to sleep with one eye open, or be ready to run at any given second if la migra shows up.  Carrot and stick. Offer a good program that offers the benefit of a manageable cost and provides security.  And if they don't follow it, they are NEVER eligible for ANY residency -- worker or otherwise.  You need to have both for a healthy and functioning system.

[lemonlime 5,503]

5 minutes ago, zork said:

Amnesty program is still going on if you are willing to wait your turn and if you qualify.  

BTW there were more acts after the one you mentioned and discussion in 2007 was timely then as now:

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/12/washington/12immig.html

Long history, this topic.

I don't understand your point. You posted part of an article about FDR interfering with Jewish refugees from immigrating to the US by slowing down the visa process.  In response to that, albeit decades later, Congress changed our immigration laws to make sure that never happened again.  Congress passed the Refugee Act of 1980 because people were horrified by what happened.  I have no idea if you think what FDR did was a good thing or a bad thing.  Or think that the Refugee Act should be revoked.  But you seem to be arguing that Trump should ignore the Refugee Act to the extent I can make head or tails of your point, if you have one, other than to but Obama, Hillary, Bill, FDR, etc.

[zork 629]

1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

I don't understand your point. You posted part of an article about FDR interfering with Jewish refugees from immigrating to the US by slowing down the visa process.  In response to that, albeit decades later, Congress changed our immigration laws to make sure that never happened again.  Congress passed the Refugee Act of 1980 because people were horrified by what happened.  I have no idea if you think what FDR did was a good thing or a bad thing.  Or think that the Refugee Act should be revoked.  But you seem to be arguing that Trump should ignore the Refugee Act to the extent I can make head or tails of your point, if you have one, other than to but Obama, Hillary, Bill, FDR, etc.

The point is there is Presidential discretion going back a long way with respect to immigration.  Two of the New Yorker presidents have been widely criticised for their use of that discretion.

The linked article from FDR's time shows how even the law can be delayed if the will of the organization, through discretionary tactics, is influenced to do that.

My opinion is the duly elected President has the authority to use his/her discretion as he/she sees fit whether I agree or not.

Further, there have been many attempts to address immigration from the Congress also going back a long way and with varying degrees of success.(the Act you mentioned is just one of them) 

I mostly agree with the opinions from the R side in the 2007 article above. 

 

 

[Captainant 27,309]

1 minute ago, zork said:

My opinion is the duly elected President has the authority to use his/her discretion as he/she sees fit whether I agree or not.

So basically, you prefer a dictator with no checks on their authority?

[zork 629]

10 minutes ago, Captainant said:

So basically, you prefer a dictator with no checks on their authority?

The abilities of the PotUS to play within the rules and exert their authority is not new.  Hardly a dictator type ability is available unless the national emergency type event is called, or the WPA is invoked for limited military use for X days.  The courts and the congress are there to check and balance away.  I don't believe I called for those to go away. 

Discretion is an interesting word with respect to leadership using it to advise their down org to emphasize their mission in this ever more politicized world.  That is not me dictating anything, just observing it.  Elections have consequences.

Edited November 27, 2018 by zork

[zork 629]

Just now, zork said:

The abilities of the PotUS to play within the rules and exert their authority is not new.  Hardly a dictator type ability is available unless the national emergency type event is called, or the WPA is invoked for limited military use for X days.  The courts and the congress are there to check and balance away.  I don't believe I called for those to go away. 

Discretion is an interesting word with respect to leadership using it to advise their down org to emphasize their mission in this ever more politicized world.  That is not me dictating anything, just observing it.  Elections have consequences.

 

[Kyle 207]

3 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

Y'all remember when we sent away a ship full of Jewish Germans (mostly) seeking asylum from Nazi Germany because they didn't wait their turn?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-39857056/the-jewish-refugees-the-us-turned-away

 

254 of them (nearly 1/3 of the total number of passengers) died in Nazi death camps.

So you're basically accusing Mexico of being national socialists? #thatsracist!

I think the crickets to the Mexico asylum issue pretty much show it's bogus. No one can explain why if they simply seek asylum why they're refusing Mexico's offer.

[Kyle 207]

3 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Being in here is a bad idea, yet I can't seem to stay away. 😎

I fear I'm falling into the same trap. The Cloak Room was fun ... this place is snowflakes armed with neg rep that seem to bully any diverse opinions. (which at least helps explain why so many have hard-ons for national socialists)

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

9 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I fear I'm falling into the same trap. The Cloak Room was fun ... this place is snowflakes armed with neg rep that seem to bully any diverse opinions. (which at least helps explain why so many have hard-ons for national socialists)

They've got the uniforms in their closets.

[Dahobbs 17,420]

15 minutes ago, Kyle said:

So you're basically accusing Mexico of being national socialists? #thatsracist!

I think the crickets to the Mexico asylum issue pretty much show it's bogus. No one can explain why if they simply seek asylum why they're refusing Mexico's offer.

What does that matter? I think you are confused as to who thinks this caravan is a big deal. No one is saying all these people deserve asylum, there simply isn't any way to know that. The whole point is that this is a pretty typical occurrence and is not a big deal. Process them and deal with it. Only one group is making this more than it is, and it is the group demonizing a group of people. Odd that you can't see that. 

[zork 629]

9 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What does that matter? I think you are confused as to who thinks this caravan is a big deal. No one is saying all these people deserve asylum, there simply isn't any way to know that. The whole point is that this is a pretty typical occurrence and is not a big deal. Process them and deal with it. Only one group is making this more than it is, and it is the group demonizing a group of people. Odd that you can't see that. 

Pretty common to rush the fences/wall with 100+ breaking through it in the process?  I mean they did it with impunity at the South Mexico border so maybe they thought it would work here as well?

[Dahobbs 17,420]

10 minutes ago, zork said:

Pretty common to rush the fences/wall with 100+ breaking through it in the process?  I mean they did it with impunity at the South Mexico border so maybe they thought it would work here as well?

Panicky people do stupid things. I am not sure what relevance this is to my post though.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

Panicky people do stupid things. I am not sure what relevance this is to my post though.

Panicky people bum rush border crossings ????  Jeebus to mergatroy.....

[Dahobbs 17,420]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Panicky people bum rush border crossings ????  Jeebus to mergatroy.....

Uh, yes? Panicky people in general tend to stampede together, just like all herd animals. The boarder crossing there handles 10s of thousands. A few hundred just isn't a big deal to me. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

This is a manufactured crisis, always has been. 

However, the victims are very real.  Vulnerable people fleeing oppression and violence seeking a better life for their children. 

[Dahobbs 17,420]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Uh, yes? Panicky people in general tend to stampede together, just like all herd animals. The boarder crossing there handles 10s of thousands. A few hundred just isn't a big deal to me. 

I'll also add, that after traveling for weeks, i am betting seeing the the entry close in front of them causes some panic. And, again, panicky people do stupid things. Not excusing their conduct, just saying it is predictable. 

[Brian Fantana 6,654]

17 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Panicky people bum rush border crossings ????  Jeebus to mergatroy.....

Awww look at the cute little white boy that's never known desperation in his entire soft as baby shit on chewed bubble gum life.

[Mole 4,318]

6 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Not to mention anyone who's been through bootcamp has been Tear Gased...it's unpleasant as hell, but it's not life altering.

3

Speak for yourself. I can still taste it.

[Smax 3,799]

8 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

so you support this?

this arguing through implied false equivalence is such a tired tactic.

also, that article is light on actual details onto how or where the gas was deployed. was it on us soil? was it in mexico?

do we make a habit of lobbing gas canisters in violation of international agreement across sovereign borders?

should we?

i vote that we shouldn't. i vote that if we have done this with frequency, then we should revisit that policy. 

what do you think?

 

I think if you bum rush the border of a foreign nation attempting to subvert their laws, you get what you deserve. Just because a small number of them may be women and children doesn't exempt them.

Follow the law and you wont get exposed to tear gas or in shaggy terms, dont start no shit, wont be no shit

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Awww look at the cute little white boy that's never known desperation in his entire soft as baby shit on chewed bubble gum life.

Oooooh you gave me a paper cut......

[Brian Fantana 6,654]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Oooooh you gave me a paper cut......

Prob too harsh dude my bad. You're ok. Sometimes. 😉

Edited November 28, 2018 by Brian Fantana

[bad_teammate 13,125]

We are normalizing ourselves to state violence against innocents, women, children, and families in a not-hard-to-spot and not-slow process.

- The rhetoric of "defending the border" is part of that normalization.
- Putting responsibility for our actions (tear-gassing, etc...) onto other people ("well, they shouldn't break the law") is part of that normalization.

Violence requires dehumanization and denationalization, and that is what we are doing right now. I say "we" because there is no secret master mind in DC pulling the levelers and twirling the dials. A significant minority of the powerful in the US government and their tens-of-millions strong base are coaching themselves up for mass internment and eventual genocide in front of our eyes. None of them consciously or explicitly want that, but that is the end result of them screaming violent fear into each other's faces every day.

And the center will pretend none of it is real, because each incremental step towards the ovens kind of makes sense when taken out of all context. (The Niemollers, lets call them).

[ChickenSandwich 9,797]

it wasn't violence, it was self defense.  The violence was from the mob, not the response from the border patrol.  The only new normal is the media coverage of the event as everything happening now has happened in the past.  We are also normalizing "zero personal responsibility for one's actions"  Pushing women and children to the front of a mob and throwing rocks and bottles behind them is not "rhetoric".

They have been offered jobs and asylum in Mexico.  Case closed.  These are not asylum seekers.  No different than the European invasion where "asylum" seekers refused to stop in the first country, because Germany had better free shit.

You are trying to normalize "a responsibility" of the American Tax payer to process the entire populations of Central American for asylum regardless of validity of claim, because it's their right and we have to no matter what the cost to the tax payer!

You have normalized simply enforcing our laws as "violence" towards women and children.

So lets repeat....They have been offered jobs and asylum in Mexico.  Case closed.  These are not asylum seekers. 

And if we are going to say Mexico isn't safe, then when do we start to process the entire Mexican population for asylum, as all would qualify in your world.

For all of your love of socialist programs, they will all NEVER be viable with unchecked illegal immigration.

We are normalizing "emotional stories" over common sense and responsibility.

Edited November 28, 2018 by ChickenSandwich

[bad_teammate 13,125]

The Daddy of the Intellectual Dark Web talking Hitler and... see if it any of this seems to resonate right now...

 

[lemonlime 5,503]

It's fine that the 6'5" body builder beat his wife.  She made bad decisions and was asking for it.  So his actions and cruelty and use of superior strength to her are completely irrelevant.  She should suck it up, because she deserved it.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

26 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The Daddy of the Intellectual Dark Web talking Hitler and... see if it any of this seems to resonate right now...

 

Yes, buy all means lets give a voice to .000000001% of the population and then try to claim it's the new norm.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaghh NAAAAAAAAZIS they're eeeeeeeeevrywhere.....

What were your comments on this border issue when it was the Obama admin. doing the pepper spraying and tera gassing ??

Cue the what aboutisms........ 

[YChang 3,430]

16 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes, buy all means lets give a voice to .000000001% of the population and then try to claim it's the new norm.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaghh NAAAAAAAAZIS they're eeeeeeeeevrywhere.....

What were your comments on this border issue when it was the Obama admin. doing the pepper spraying and tera gassing ??

Cue the what aboutisms........ 

It's wrong then and it's wrong now?

[Anastasis 23,375]

Just now, YChang said:

It's wrong then and it's wrong now?

But normalization!

[Captainant 27,309]

15 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes, buy all means lets give a voice to .000000001% of the population and then try to claim it's the new norm.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaghh NAAAAAAAAZIS they're eeeeeeeeevrywhere.....

What were your comments on this border issue when it was the Obama admin. doing the pepper spraying and tera gassing ??

Cue the what aboutisms........ 

I mean, Nazis have literally killed someone during the trump administration. A synagogue was shot up KILLING 11 PEOPLE AT A FUCKING BRIS because of conspiracy theories pushed by Peterson and people like him. Both sides amirite?

I think he's pretty goddamn representative of trump republicans. Yourself included. He's just saying what you don't realize you are. 

[David Dennison 18,603]

19 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes, buy all means lets give a voice to .000000001% of the population and then try to claim it's the new norm.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaghh NAAAAAAAAZIS they're eeeeeeeeevrywhere.....

What were your comments on this border issue when it was the Obama admin. doing the pepper spraying and tera gassing ??

Cue the what aboutisms........ 

The Obama administration's border and immigration policies were vociferously criticized by the left.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

40 minutes ago, YChang said:

It's wrong then and it's wrong now?

And not one of these guys said boo about it I'll bet.  

And when people charge a border station it's not wrong. It's not the way I'd like it to be handled, but I will err on the side of protecting our border guards all day long over people trying to break into a crossing station.  There are consequences for mob mentality.  

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

41 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The Obama administration's border and immigration policies were vociferously criticized by the left.

Uh huh.....

[David Dennison 18,603]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Uh huh.....

Oh, well, if you didn't read or hear about it . . . 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Oh, well, if you didn't read or hear about it . . . 

Sigh............

[David Dennison 18,603]

Good talk.

[Brian Fantana 6,654]

53 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I mean, Nazis have literally killed someone during the trump administration. A synagogue was shot up KILLING 11 PEOPLE AT A FUCKING BRIS because of conspiracy theories pushed by Peterson and people like him. Both sides amirite?

I think he's pretty goddamn representative of trump republicans. Yourself included. He's just saying what you don't realize you are. 

Nah man that doesn't count. /onboard

[hayden_horn 11,360]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes, buy all means lets give a voice to .000000001% of the population and then try to claim it's the new norm.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaghh NAAAAAAAAZIS they're eeeeeeeeevrywhere.....

What were your comments on this border issue when it was the Obama admin. doing the pepper spraying and tera gassing ??

Cue the what aboutisms........ 

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/obama-trump-immigration-227338

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2012/06/11/154782404/immigrant-advocates-obamas-deportation-policy-a-failure

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/11/13/obama-faces-criticisms-from-all-sides-with-anticipated-immigration-executive-order

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/the-democrats-immigration-mistake/528678/

but, whatever.

[Brian Fantana 6,654]

To be fair, 2 minutes of Google research is a lot to ask.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Nah man that doesn't count. /onboard

Every death by some wack job matters. You're still talking about a fraction of a fraction of our population.  So nice try, but a huge swing and a miss.

[Brian Fantana 6,654]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Every death by some wack job matters. You're still talking about a fraction of a fraction of our population.  So nice try, but a huge swing and a miss.

It's not just "some wack job" it's a very specific set of wack jobs that people like you keep insisting aren't an issue.

[staboner 4,955]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes, buy all means lets give a voice to .000000001% of the population and then try to claim it's the new norm.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaghh NAAAAAAAAZIS they're eeeeeeeeevrywhere.....

What were your comments on this border issue when it was the Obama admin. doing the pepper spraying and tera gassing ??

Cue the what aboutisms........ 

you are the embodiment of inaction and deflection. terrible post. 

[hayden_horn 11,360]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

To be fair, 2 minutes of Google research is a lot to ask.

it was more like 45 seconds, but yes, your point is valid.

this shit is not hard to find if you (not you, fantana, you generally) go look for it. 

i remember many critics of obama's stance on immigration on shaggy. his deportation policy was draconian, and as a matter of fact, many posters on both the left and (then) right advocated for the GWB policy, which seemed to be the best approach. but bush was from texas, and he understood the challenges of immigration.

also, our border patrol are a bunch of wannabe cowboys, and i think they use violence far too often when it is not necessary. plenty of stories out there about use of excessive force and even murder. they need to be seriously examined.

except this is the type of behavior that republicans want out of their border patrol. because "rapists" and "animals" only understand violence, right?

[staboner 4,955]

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it was more like 45 seconds, but yes, your point is valid.

this shit is not hard to find if you (not you, fantana, you generally) go look for it. 

i remember many critics of obama's stance on immigration on shaggy. his deportation policy was draconian, and as a matter of fact, many posters on both the left and (then) right advocated for the GWB policy, which seemed to be the best approach. but bush was from texas, and he understood the challenges of immigration.

also, our border patrol are a bunch of wannabe cowboys, and i think they use violence far too often when it is not necessary. plenty of stories out there about use of excessive force and even murder. they need to be seriously examined.

except this is the type of behavior that republicans want out of their border patrol. because "rapists" and "animals" only understand violence, right?

i was one of the libtards who liked W's plan and didn't like the Obama admin's policies

Edited November 28, 2018 by staboner

[Captainant 27,309]

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Every death by some wack job matters. You're still talking about a fraction of a fraction of our population.  So nice try, but a huge swing and a miss.

You fucking idiot. I'm not saying that it's a matter of condemning an entire group based off the actions of a few. You clearly still cannot understand that concept. I'm saying that nearly all of the political violence in our country comes from the far and alt-right. Sure, whataboutism the baseball game and "punch a nazi", but you're ignoring the statistical FACT that angry white extremists are responsible for the majority of terrorism in the country. If your only defense is that it's so few people causing the trouble, then I'm really surprised that you hate the people at the border so much.

[DDD Dad 14,167]

26 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Every death by some wack job matters. You're still talking about a fraction of a fraction of our population.  So nice try, but a huge swing and a miss.

So you're saying that we shouldn't be concerned about Islamic terrorists because they are a fraction of a fraction of Muslim population?

[David Dennison 18,603]

32 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/obama-trump-immigration-227338

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2012/06/11/154782404/immigrant-advocates-obamas-deportation-policy-a-failure

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/11/13/obama-faces-criticisms-from-all-sides-with-anticipated-immigration-executive-order

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/the-democrats-immigration-mistake/528678/

but, whatever.

This does not fit Onboard's narrative.

 

[David Dennison 18,603]

1 minute ago, tjhooker said:

why is this an issue now when it has been going on for years?

It's always been an issue.