Surly kids applying / attending UT

[Guest Lobo]

Well, not sure what that cost you.  But congrats on having her at UT!  

[Willfully Horn 8027]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

Well, not sure what that cost you.  But congrats on having her at UT!  

 She had earned academic scholarships from CSU, so our costs have gone up. 

3 hours ago, Lobo said:

 

[CooterBrown 18014]

I would’ve made her stay through the spring before making a decision.

[Willfully Horn 8027]

It seems asshole is my default setting.

Thanks Lobo! 
 

Cooter, that decision was informed by Mack Brown’s early mistake, coaching VY. At least that’s what I told myself. Support your hard working, incredibly talented kid. I am so proud of her. That was my message to her.

I use “willful” to describe myself here. I   got nothing on my eldest in that regard.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Willfully Horn
Tidying up

[KaiserSoze 998]

On 5/1/2020 at 11:14 AM, Lobo said:

But we had more declines than I can ever remember.

With you as the face of the University most would choose to go elsewhere- what a fucking beating. 

[Guest Lobo]

Sorry for talking scholarships and admits on a thread about scholarships and admits.   Won’t happen again dicknose

[Guest]

5 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

I would’ve made her stay through the spring before making a decision.

sometimes you know... the fit ain't right.  Maybe the conversation was, "I love school, but I hate it here."

For her to be continuing her school and (evidently) thriving is better than sticking it out and burning through the wick, no?

[Rougarou 594]

Fail fast; fail cheap. If it ain’t a fit pivot quick.

[Moby Ric 2058]

12 hours ago, Irwin F Fletcher said:

17 hours ago, orange dream said:

That's great.  Is she a January 2021 entry or an auto admit for Fall 2021?  I didn't think they were "accepting" Fall 2021 yet.
Either way congrats!!

Fall of 2021.

Congrats.  That is real early.  My oldest is applying for the fall of 2021 and has yet to do it.  Guess she had better get it together.

[CooterBrown 18014]

3 hours ago, slorch said:

sometimes you know... the fit ain't right.  Maybe the conversation was, "I love school, but I hate it here."

For her to be continuing her school and (evidently) thriving is better than sticking it out and burning through the wick, no?

My opinion is pretty influenced by knowing several students that were homesick my first semester of college and looked for any excuse to go home.  Heck, I was homesick a bit and I hated my hometown. At least for me, that 2nd semester did wonders.   From what he wrote, the only issue was the cold. Tough shit buttercup, if that's your biggest complaint, you ain't got a legitimate complaint.  Here's a North Face gift card.

 

 

 

 

[Irwin F Fletcher 3550]

Congrats.  That is real early.  My oldest is applying for the fall of 2021 and has yet to do it.  Guess she had better get it together.

Application for fall 2021 opened up back in Aug 1st. My daughter is top 5% in her class so she was pretty confident she'd automatically get accepted. Getting accepted now let's her get a jump on housing choices on campus.

[Longhorn94 2452]

21 hours ago, Irwin F Fletcher said:

Thanks! Her plan is to graduate with a BS in Environmental Science. 

Congrats! EVS is a very difficult major to get into. I think they only accept 50 per year.

My daughter is a sophomore in the EVS program. She loves it. Has your daughter applied for Dean's Scholar? I would highly recommend it as well. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Longhorn94

[tx 3 putt 77044]

On 9/16/2020 at 7:34 PM, phdhorn said:

Congrats!  Man, how time flies! It seems so long ago to my son got accepted to UT engineering. 4 years later almost it's like another life for him now as he's thinking of graduation. I can't tell you how much of a life changer his UT experience has been.Lots of kids go through, it does some good, others not so well, but a few it really changes their lives. He's one of them. It just happened to be exactly what he needed.

Soak it up, there's no better feeling as a parent. I'll never forget the day the day he found out he got in.

sr year of chemical engineering (not ut) was a grind 

[phdhorn 6224]

10 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

sr year of chemical engineering (not ut) was a grind 

He's doing residential real estate (residential investment, i.e apartments) during this year to boot (he is going to do this as a career, already working on his first big deal with partners).  He has one more kinda tough semester (this one, two tougher courses but he's done pretty well so far) but he says it's not bad and as a senior he pretty much knows the ropes.  Next semester is mostly senior project, then he'll walk in May (hopefully) but finish in the summer.

The way this specific university has catapulted this specific kid into a different, confident person has been remarkable.  Like I said, for most of us UT was a great place, some ups and downs, but we liked it (and most of us change as well in 4 - or 5 - or 6 - or.. lol!) years anyway.  But for some kids, it's a life-changer.  This is him.  Amazing how good UT has been for him.

 

[TwiceHorn 31495]

7 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

He's doing residential real estate (residential investment, i.e apartments) during this year to boot (he is going to do this as a career, already working on his first big deal with partners).  He has one more kinda tough semester (this one, two tougher courses but he's done pretty well so far) but he says it's not bad and as a senior he pretty much knows the ropes.  Next semester is mostly senior project, then he'll walk in May (hopefully) but finish in the summer.

The way this specific university has catapulted this specific kid into a different, confident person has been remarkable.  Like I said, for most of us UT was a great place, some ups and downs, but we liked it (and most of us change as well in 4 - or 5 - or 6 - or.. lol!) years anyway.  But for some kids, it's a life-changer.  This is him.  Amazing how good UT has been for him.

 

Mechanical?  

[phdhorn 6224]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Mechanical?  

No, she uses an electri... er, yeah, Mechanical.  He's deciding whether to do the real estate corp stuff full-time or take a engineering job offer as well.  He'll probably do the latter at least to start, but not sure yet.  

[Guest Lobo]

25 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

He's doing residential real estate (residential investment, i.e apartments) during this year to boot (he is going to do this as a career, already working on his first big deal with partners).  He has one more kinda tough semester (this one, two tougher courses but he's done pretty well so far) but he says it's not bad and as a senior he pretty much knows the ropes.  Next semester is mostly senior project, then he'll walk in May (hopefully) but finish in the summer.

The way this specific university has catapulted this specific kid into a different, confident person has been remarkable.  Like I said, for most of us UT was a great place, some ups and downs, but we liked it (and most of us change as well in 4 - or 5 - or 6 - or.. lol!) years anyway.  But for some kids, it's a life-changer.  This is him.  Amazing how good UT has been for him.

 

Has he gotten involved in REFIC (Real Estate Finance & Investment Center)...now called just Texas Real Estate Center?  I mention that given the proclivity he has that you mentioned above.  I was not a direct major in that way either, but it is a particularly powerful for non-finance students to get engaged in the real estate space while still doing other things in their major.  Between that exposure and his engineering background, could be a very powerful mix.  I'm no longer allowed to discuss UT advice on this thread since it hurts people's feelings, but bullshit aside-have him reach out to Texas Real Estate Center.   I'd be happy to help connect him with the right staff/alumni there since you keep my lawn fed with rain.  

Edited September 18, 2020 by Lobo

[chesthair 231]

Oldest finished up his application for UT last night.  I'm 50/50 on him attending UT.  Good student, great kid but I could see UT swallowing him up (like it did me...I was done after 1 semester, couldnt handle the freedom).  I have taken him to a bunch of games and he is infatuated with UT but we havent done a "real" campus visit.  He also applied to ou...that was crushing for me.  

 

BTW, dont we have a "applying for college is a fucking beating, please help" thread?  I would rather go through 10 mortgage applications vs one college app...beat down!  He used CommonAp for some schools but UT didnt accept it so had to do another one from scratch.

[Willfully Horn 8027]

On 9/17/2020 at 8:17 AM, CooterBrown said:

My opinion is pretty influenced by knowing several students that were homesick my first semester of college and looked for any excuse to go home.  Heck, I was homesick a bit and I hated my hometown. At least for me, that 2nd semester did wonders.   From what he wrote, the only issue was the cold. Tough shit buttercup, if that's your biggest complaint, you ain't got a legitimate complaint.  Here's a North Face gift card.

 

 

 

 

We had discussed the second semester payoff, because it is a fact. It’s funny you think she and Mrs Horn hadn’t over-outfitted her before we left the state. A couple of times, on my request, friends who know give her tips on keeping the body’s heat trapped in layers before stepping out the door. She hated the cold.
  
Maintaining a 4.0, with a course load that included CSU’s 808A equivalent (and which UT credited) earns respect in this household. As does lifting the worry that your investment  will yield half-assed returns.

She told me, when she was accepted, that she knew I had always hoped she would go to UT. She was right, and I acknowledge that played a part. 
 

 

[Willfully Horn 8027]

12 minutes ago, chesthair said:

Oldest finished up his application for UT last night.  I'm 50/50 on him attending UT.  Good student, great kid but I could see UT swallowing him up (like it did me...I was done after 1 semester, couldnt handle the freedom).  I have taken him to a bunch of games and he is infatuated with UT but we havent done a "real" campus visit.  He also applied to ou...that was crushing for me.  

 

BTW, dont we have a "applying for college is a fucking beating, please help" thread?  I would rather go through 10 mortgage applications vs one college app...beat down!  He used CommonAp for some schools but UT didnt accept it so had to do another one from scratch.

Our daughter wouldn’t let us anywhere near her applications, except the parts we were required to address.

I can imagine the frustration, filling out the sign up here made me surly. Best of luck to your son.

 

[phdhorn 6224]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

Has he gotten involved in REFIC (Real Estate Finance & Investment Center)...now called just Texas Real Estate Center?  I mention that given the proclivity he has that you mentioned above.  I was not a direct major in that way either, but it is a particularly powerful for non-finance students to get engaged in the real estate space while still doing other things in their major.  Between that exposure and his engineering background, could be a very powerful mix.  I'm no longer allowed to discuss UT advice on this thread since it hurts people's feelings, but bullshit aside-have him reach out to Texas Real Estate Center.   I'd be happy to help connect him with the right staff/alumni there since you keep my lawn fed with rain.  

Thank you for the advice.  My bet is he knows about it already (the kid has been obsessed with this stuff for a year) but I will definitely bring it up to him.  He's already up and running on his first big (million $, not for him, for the property value) deal.  I'm meeting w/him tomorrow I'll bring it up.  He will be doing business all over the U.S. but of course he would do well to use avenues to strengthen his Texas outreach.

[Guest Lobo]

I'm guessing he knows about it as well.  It's a little 'cliquey' in terms of a lot of students and younger members are multi-generational kids from white real estate families.  But there are fantastic mentorship opportunities to be had by people that aren't necessarily from that world where everybody's grandfather was a developer.  And it has much vaster reach across the U.S. than most folks realize.  I thought it would be completely Texas-centric, but other than getting onto the Investment Committee at TRS, it's the best way to engage New York and myriad institutional investors, deal-flow, etc.  Anywho, my two cents: 

 https://www.mccombs.utexas.edu/Centers/Real-Estate-Center

Fun fact, it was once run by Jay Hartzell.  

[jeevsie 3734]

A follow up a year+ down the road:

Starting in Spring 2019, Kid was Cap-ed for admission.  He didn't give up - appealed and was granted admission into liberal arts.  He had a full ride at UT-D but really wanted UT so that's what he did.  Enrolled Fall 2019.  Straight A's for both semesters taking pre-med track courses (one A-, still a weird thing for me).  Spring 2020 he applied for transfers and was admitted to Natural Science and Biomed Engineineering.  He has chosen BME and is now in classes.

Just a note I've been meaning to share for a while that it is possible even if the admissions process is a PITA.  The path forward may not be as direct as we'd like, but it can be done.  The journey from disappointment at being denied admission (he kept it from us for a weekend before blurting it out) to the excitement of not only being approved transferring but having choices is just amazing.  Damn proud of this kid.

[jimmyjazz 45974]

Question about transferring in:  my daughter is destroying it at UTSA on the CAP program, as I knew she would.  Very high A's this summer and so far very high this fall.  Combined with 3 AP test scores, she will likely hit 24 credit hours with a 4.0 by the end of this fall.  Technically, 24 hours is the transfer threshold into UT-Austin.

So, we're wondering if she could just bypass the rest of the CAP program and transfer in.  Anybody try that with their kid?  Any downside to trying?

[Austinvines 318]

Question about transferring in:  my daughter is destroying it at UTSA on the CAP program, as I knew she would.  Very high A's this summer and so far very high this fall.  Combined with 3 AP test scores, she will likely hit 24 credit hours with a 4.0 by the end of this fall.  Technically, 24 hours is the transfer threshold into UT-Austin.
So, we're wondering if she could just bypass the rest of the CAP program and transfer in.  Anybody try that with their kid?  Any downside to trying?

One of my twins is at UTSA for CAP as well. After the six hours this summer, he has sophomore hours which will help with spring registration. Let me know what you find out about xfering after the Fall semester. I thought you had to complete the CAP curriculum (all 30 hours) and have the GPA to qualify, but I’d love to be wrong.

[Rougarou 594]

Is UTSA like the G-League or the Triple-A farm system from UT these days? Are they seen as the preferred partner versus, say, UTA or UTD or UTEP or UTPANAM, etc.

[jimmyjazz 45974]

31 minutes ago, Austinvines said:

One of my twins is at UTSA for CAP as well. After the six hours this summer, he has sophomore hours which will help with spring registration. Let me know what you find out about xfering after the Fall semester. I thought you had to complete the CAP curriculum (all 30 hours) and have the GPA to qualify, but I’d love to be wrong.

You do have to have all 30 hours at 3.2 GPA or higher to get into UT via CAP, but I'm asking about avoiding CAP and just trying to transfer in as a "UTSA" student.  I'll post any more info I get.

[jimmyjazz 45974]

22 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Is UTSA like the G-League or the Triple-A farm system from UT these days? Are they seen as the preferred partner versus, say, UTA or UTD or UTEP or UTPANAM, etc.

I don't think UTSA is the highest regarded campus in the system after Austin -- I would assume that would be UT-Dallas.  However, not all campuses are part of the CAP program (and Dallas is not).

[Jerry Callo 8704]

7 hours ago, chesthair said:

Oldest finished up his application for UT last night.  I'm 50/50 on him attending UT.  Good student, great kid but I could see UT swallowing him up (like it did me...I was done after 1 semester, couldnt handle the freedom).  I have taken him to a bunch of games and he is infatuated with UT but we havent done a "real" campus visit.  He also applied to ou...that was crushing for me.  

 

BTW, dont we have a "applying for college is a fucking beating, please help" thread?  I would rather go through 10 mortgage applications vs one college app...beat down!  He used CommonAp for some schools but UT didnt accept it so had to do another one from scratch.

My daughter is working on her college applications right now.  She wants to go to UT, but hasn't really decided what she wants to study.  Makes it difficult to complete the application process.  I suspect she will ultimately go to another school, but applying to UT is probably the most difficult with the additional questions, so I asked her to finish that first.  One more meeting with the school counselor next week.

 

 

[jimmyjazz 45974]

UT is particularly stuck on picking one major.  Hopefully your daughter's counselor can provide more flavor, but she needs to have a laser focus on one program.

[TwiceHorn 31495]

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

UT is particularly stuck on picking one major.  Hopefully your daughter's counselor can provide more flavor, but she needs to have a laser focus on one program.

I think that's a byproduct of the days when on average, it took people about 6 years to graduate from UT with a Bachelor's degree.  I know a guy, smart guy if unfocused, that, in his own words, "fucked up and graduated" with 180-something hours just by changing majors all the time.  

The commit early notion seems particularly hard on first-gen college students, which I'm sure top 6/8/10 has increased, but I would bet that the University figured out that "major-switchers" rarely improved their situation from a grades or graduation standpoint, so might as well make them bite the bullet.

Edited September 18, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[chitwood 155]

Following up on this. Daughter is enjoying freshman year at Trinity so far. Likes her classes, including a trap and skeet shooting PE class. Never shot a gun before and hit a moving target this week. She loves it. 
 

Son is living in San Jac at UT doing ME. Just talked to him, doing Calc II homework on a Saturday night, says the course is a bitch. Dad reminded him of advice to do Calc I, but he said it wouldn’t have helped. He will get through it. He’s getting out with a few friends (including @blacklab ‘s daughter who has him squarely in the friend zone) and doing stuff outside, but I do think it is to tough on him without a roommate (had a plan to room with/share a suite with three friends from high school, but when their classes went all remote they all decided to live at home for the semester) and not being allowed to have other people in the room. Think it gets lonely at night, but again he will be fine. 

[DCA_HORN 725]

Following up on this. Daughter is enjoying freshman year at Trinity so far. Likes her classes, including a trap and skeet shooting PE class.

Is that what they're calling it these days?

[chitwood 155]

1 minute ago, DCA_HORN said:

 

 

Is that what they're calling it these days?

 

I now have to murder you. Nothing personal. 

[Bateshorn 9928]

33 minutes ago, chitwood said:

Following up on this. Daughter is enjoying freshman year at Trinity so far. Likes her classes, including a trap and skeet shooting PE class. Never shot a gun before and hit a moving target this week. She loves it. 
 

Son is living in San Jac at UT doing ME. Just talked to him, doing Calc II homework on a Saturday night, says the course is a bitch. Dad reminded him of advice to do Calc I, but he said it wouldn’t have helped. He will get through it. He’s getting out with a few friends (including @blacklab ‘s daughter who has him squarely in the friend zone) and doing stuff outside, but I do think it is to tough on him without a roommate (had a plan to room with/share a suite with three friends from high school, but when their classes went all remote they all decided to live at home for the semester) and not being allowed to have other people in the room. Think it gets lonely at night, but again he will be fine. 

Boy #1 is also enjoying Trinity.  Other than the food, which is “okay.” 

[chitwood 155]

11 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Boy #1 is also enjoying Trinity.  Other than the food, which is “okay.” 

Daughter is fitting the Taco Taco trailer a lot. Says it is tasty. 

[Jerry Callo 8704]

Daughter had to fill out the online form for transcripts - Parchment.  It has all kinds of questions with ridiculous multiple choice answers.  How would you describe your scholarly activities (a) did the bare minimum (b) National Merit Scholar Semifinalist (c) National Merit Scholar Finalist (d) National Merit Scholar.  Pretty big gap between "did the bare minimum" and National Merit stuff.  I hate this crap.

[TwiceHorn 31495]

28 minutes ago, Jerry Callo said:

Daughter had to fill out the online form for transcripts - Parchment.  It has all kinds of questions with ridiculous multiple choice answers.  How would you describe your scholarly activities (a) did the bare minimum (b) National Merit Scholar Semifinalist (c) National Merit Scholar Finalist (d) National Merit Scholar.  Pretty big gap between "did the bare minimum" and National Merit stuff.  I hate this crap.

Actually, there really isn't.  As noted years ago by some admissions person somewhere, UT used to get the "scary smart" kids that often had high-mediocre GPAs and near-perfect SAT scores.  Very smart kids that did the bare minimum (which wound up being half decent just because they were so fucking smart), but had off the charts SAT scores.  Often, these kids were bored and unchallenged by high school and blew the doors off college work.  Some continued to dick off, though.

[UT_OB1 2224]

On 9/18/2020 at 8:10 AM, phdhorn said:

No, she uses an electri... er, yeah, Mechanical.  He's deciding whether to do the real estate corp stuff full-time or take a engineering job offer as well.  He'll probably do the latter at least to start, but not sure yet.  

Take the engineering job, but work the RE side from day one.  As a ChemE that just started getting in to RE a few years ago, that is the advice I'd give myself 15-20 years ago.  He'll start off with a better cash flow that way, and he can use that to fund the RE.  I'd also go back in time and tell myself to move every 12-18 months, but never sell a home.  Being single, easy to save the money for the next down payment.  Find a 2-3 bedroom you can afford, get a roommate to pay 1/3 to half, bank, move, and rent then rent your old place.  Retire by 45.

[crash_davis 23113]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Actually, there really isn't.  As noted years ago by some admissions person somewhere, UT used to get the "scary smart" kids that often had high-mediocre GPAs and near-perfect SAT scores.  Very smart kids that did the bare minimum (which wound up being half decent just because they were so fucking smart), but had off the charts SAT scores.  Often, these kids were bored and unchallenged by high school and blew the doors off college work.  Some continued to dick off, though.

my daughter fits this to a T. she scored 99% on the SAT and ACT. she was bored as shit in HS and didn't apply herself. made decent grades but didn't take all the extra AP courses, because meh. it's just high school, dad.

has a 3.9 junior year at Texas. Plan II and majoring in Neuroscience. she's pissed that she doesn't have a 4.0. 

UT knew what they were doing when they accepted her into Plan II.

[TwiceHorn 31495]

6 minutes ago, UT_OB1 said:

Take the engineering job, but work the RE side from day one.  As a ChemE that just started getting in to RE a few years ago, that is the advice I'd give myself 15-20 years ago.  He'll start off with a better cash flow that way, and he can use that to fund the RE.  I'd also go back in time and tell myself to move every 12-18 months, but never sell a home.  Being single, easy to save the money for the next down payment.  Find a 2-3 bedroom you can afford, get a roommate to pay 1/3 to half, bank, move, and rent then rent your old place.  Retire by 45.

This is probably a good plan.  The engineering job provides a nice income to fund the RE investment. To include investments beyond "landlording" rental properties.

The goal is probably not to actually "work" in real estate, but to become an investor/developer.  Those that do actually work in RE (broker/agent/analyst) strive to become the latter.  Of course, working in RE may provide the entre, but not necessarily any more than being involved as an investor, and engineering is going to provide a better income than most RE work for the first 5-10 years most likely.

[Leeroy Jenkins 2409]

My daughter just got her acceptance (top 6%) for the fall of 2021.  She is looking at Psychology with law school plans.   

What are the top choices for dorms now?  I never lived on the 40 since I didn't do undergrad there.  My wife spent two years in Jester then two years in an apartment if I remember correctly.  

[crash_davis 23113]

41 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

My daughter just got her acceptance (top 6%) for the fall of 2021.  She is looking at Psychology with law school plans.   

What are the top choices for dorms now?  I never lived on the 40 since I didn't do undergrad there.  My wife spent two years in Jester then two years in an apartment if I remember correctly.  

1st daughter live at Blanton in the Honors quad. Rooms sucked. No sinks.

2nd daughter is in the Castilian. She likes it. It is the same price as Jester but meal plan is included so it's about $1500 less expensive than Jester if you include the meal plan. BTW, the nickname for the Castilian is Nasty Casty. Not sure why it got that nick but it's nice, a hell of a lot nicer then the dorms in the Honors quad.

[Beau Vine 54253]

This is pretty cool -- my daughter just got a silver diploma in the mail:

[Blotto 23558]

On 9/19/2020 at 10:12 PM, chitwood said:

Daughter is fitting the Taco Taco trailer a lot. Says it is tasty. 

Is that what they're calling it these days?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

This is pretty cool -- my daughter just got a silver diploma in the mail:

Is it gold for better grades?   School of Mines and all...

Congratulations!!!

[Longhorn94 2452]

On 9/22/2020 at 11:41 AM, crash_davis said:

my daughter fits this to a T. she scored 99% on the SAT and ACT. she was bored as shit in HS and didn't apply herself. made decent grades but didn't take all the extra AP courses, because meh. it's just high school, dad.

has a 3.9 junior year at Texas. Plan II and majoring in Neuroscience. she's pissed that she doesn't have a 4.0. 

UT knew what they were doing when they accepted her into Plan II.

small world - i bet your jr daughter knows my jr son from plan II...

[TwiceHorn 31495]

2 hours ago, crash_davis said:

1st daughter live at Blanton in the Honors quad. Rooms sucked. No sinks.

2nd daughter is in the Castilian. She likes it. It is the same price as Jester but meal plan is included so it's about $1500 less expensive than Jester if you include the meal plan. BTW, the nickname for the Castilian is Nasty Casty. Not sure why it got that nick but it's nice, a hell of a lot nicer then the dorms in the Honors quad.

That's insane.  I lived in the Castle 30 years ago and it was more expensive than Jester by quite a margin.  I priced campus housing not too long ago and it made an apartment in West Campus look like a pretty good deal.  What the fuck is going on, Lester?

[crash_davis 23113]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

That's insane.  I lived in the Castle 30 years ago and it was more expensive than Jester by quite a margin.  I priced campus housing not too long ago and it made an apartment in West Campus look like a pretty good deal.  What the fuck is going on, Lester?

jester renovation happened.

[TwiceHorn 31495]

Just now, crash_davis said:

jester renovation happened.

Jester can't actually be nice?  And it wasn't just Jester I was looking at, either.