Surly kids applying / attending UT

[dcbc 14248]

On 2/2/2024 at 6:37 PM, CleverNickname said:

My rising 9th graders counselors keep telling everyone (kids and parents) not to take "advanced" (pre-AP basically) everything. Take one or two classes with the norms, is how I interpret that. Does anyone listen? Like, she has expressed no real interest in engineering or sciences, but then again she is 14. Maybe she'll suddenly want to go med school and want lots of rigorous high school science. 

So: did yall's UT bound kids take pretty much AP/IB everything?

Mine did.  And if not AP, it likely was dual credit.  I know he took Spanish with gen. pop. though, along with a few other required courses.  He's got 28 hours of credit from AP/Dual Credit.

Edited February 5 by dcbc

[dcbc 14248]

5 hours ago, SuckitKevin said:

Daughter just got her acceptance letter to UT nursing. She had almost resigned herself to going somewhere else because acceptance is so difficult. We’re beyond proud of her but she’s a little hesitant to fully commit right now. I think she’s a little shocked but also nervous about leaving home for the first time. My son will be a senior Biology/ pre med track student so I think the transition will be fine. I just don’t think this is something she can pass up.

Congratulations!

[dcbc 14248]

3 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

Back in the 90s when I was in Richardson ISD you took an Honors class you got 3 points added to whatever your final grade was.  Take an AP course, that was worth 5 points.  So get an 88 and that becomes a 91 or 93 depending on the level of the class, etc.  Something along those lines seems more reasonable.  Maybe an AP class is worth 7-10 more points nowadays.... I dunno, but I sure as hell know it ain't worth 30.  

At my kid's high school, AP gets you 5 points.

[tx 3 putt 75476]

3 hours ago, CTC2 said:

Letters of recommendation are worthless unless they come from a teacher who has greater than normal insight into the student and can offer some unique perspective.  

 

 

[Surly Bevo 24573]

2 minutes ago, dcbc said:

At my kid's high school, AP gets you 5 points.

And that....makes sense.  And I relooked and slightly worse than I remembered.  A 70 in an AP class gets you a 4.2.  So you do better as you "pass the class" than the kid who aced the regular class.  

[dcbc 14248]

5 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I honestly suspect the essay is paramount in admissions.  My son got CAPed out of the clear blue sky.  I mean, I figured he had zero shot.  The grades and scores just weren't there.  He wrote an essay that was CLEARLY not crafted by a writing coach or parent.  (All I did was correct a couple of misspelled words and grammatical errors.)  The thing was, it was heartfelt.  He played on a high regional/national level soccer club and he wrote about how it exposed him to kids with all kinds of different backgrounds (obviously, many Hispanic), and how he had to learn to respect their points of view in order to make the team better.  That dude is on campus in Austin now, and while he's probably not gonna graduate summa cum laude, he's getting by and loving it.  He's starting to talk about med school, for fuck's sake.  (Might end up in Grenada, but hey, med school is med school, right?)

I agree.  I think the essay is huge.  My older son writes well and he really wrote a banger.  I gave him some suggestions about how to make it better, incorporating a common theme or a hook.  But it was solid.  I have read a lot of scholarship essays for our local Texas Exes chapter and, during that time, I realized that a kid who can write well is a damned unicorn.  My son's hurdle he had to overcome in writing the essay is that he's modest and has a hard time writing about himself. 

 

Also, not so humble brag but to illustrate the point, when I was in high school (early 90s), I wrote a college essay about my late father a flying airplanes (a shared love).  I had an English teacher take an interest in it and who gave me some good advice about trimming it down and making it impactful.  That essay resulted in my getting two scholarships to SMU, which I ultimately turned down to go to UT.  Later, I got a letter from someone affiliated with SMU asking if they could use my essay in an ongoing seminar they ran at the time across the country on ow to write the perfect college essay.  I later learned that my high school senior English teacher used it as her model college essay and read it to her students until she retired in 2015.  I also submitted it along with my law school application.  So, yes, I'm a big believer that an essay can be a difference-maker.

 

/TLDR: I wrote a hit play and directed it.  I also saved Latin.

 

 

Edited February 5 by dcbc

[Surly Bevo 24573]

4 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I honestly suspect the essay is paramount in admissions.  My son got CAPed out of the clear blue sky.  I mean, I figured he had zero shot.  The grades and scores just weren't there.  He wrote an essay that was CLEARLY not crafted by a writing coach or parent.  (All I did was correct a couple of misspelled words and grammatical errors.)  The thing was, it was heartfelt.  He played on a high regional/national level soccer club and he wrote about how it exposed him to kids with all kinds of different backgrounds (obviously, many Hispanic), and how he had to learn to respect their points of view in order to make the team better.  That dude is on campus in Austin now, and while he's probably not gonna graduate summa cum laude, he's getting by and loving it.  He's starting to talk about med school, for fuck's sake.  (Might end up in Grenada, but hey, med school is med school, right?)

Yep.  My daughter at Texas has dyslexia.  The UT primary essay prompt that year was something to the tune of "Talk about a challenge you had to overcome in your academic or personal pursuits"

But then I also remember there was a short answer question asking something like "Tell us about something you have done where you have had to display leadership skills?"  She wrote about BABYSITTING (things like establishing trust with parents, being accountable and communicative with the charges and the parents, making decisions without input because nobody else was around to, etc). It was a pretty creative response to a question that at least I like to think stood out from the "Well when I was the Vice President of the model robot team blah blah blah" type responses.  

[YGIFS 19445]

3 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

The grade inflation and maybe more specifically at least in my kid's school district the inflation Honors/Pre-AP/AP comes with for GPA purposes is out of control.  In this district you take a regular class and get 100 that's a 4.0 for your weighted GPA (which is what class rank is determined on). You take an Honors/Pre-AP class and get 100 that's a 5.0.  You take an AP Class and get 100 that's a 6.0.  So a big difference in what acing the class means.  But, consider this.  The sliding scale means a kid getting a 70 in an AP class gets a 4.0 for that 70.  So the kid who gets a 70 in an AP class gets the same GPA benefit as the kid who ACES a regular version of the same class.  Come the fuck on.   Back in the 90s when I was in Richardson ISD you took an Honors class you got 3 points added to whatever your final grade was.  Take an AP course, that was worth 5 points.  So get an 88 and that becomes a 91 or 93 depending on the level of the class, etc.  Something along those lines seems more reasonable.  Maybe an AP class is worth 7-10 more points nowadays.... I dunno, but I sure as hell know it ain't worth 30.  

And I say all of this with kids who routinely take those higher-level classes.  

Yeah, this is a good point.  When reviewing applications, I take more of a look at the courseload/titles than the grades themselves to get a sense of intellectual curiosity and breadth of the student.  But yeah, a 30-point differential is pretty silly.  Not sure 5 points is the answer either, but something in between.  And while the AP tests themselves are pretty standard across the board, the instruction/teachers vary wildly.  I've interviewed students who know more about Calculus or Spanish than their AP teachers and then others who got an 'A' in the course but a 2 or 3 on the exam because their teacher was clearly not qualified to be teaching Home Economics, let alone AP Economics.  But every district's gotta offer some form or fashion of it, and sometimes they just grab the JV football coach to do it.  /rant...the scale does need some examination to be sure though.

[jimmyjazz 45192]

6 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

Yep.  My daughter at Texas has dyslexia.

You know, that may have been a factor into my son's admission.  He has a 504 file.  Technically "ADHD", but that was just the bucket they put him in when we had him tested.  The testing folks mainly just said he should sit up front in class and take tests in a quiet environment, counselor's office, etc.  We never really did much of that.  I wonder if schools can see that such a file exists?  I can't imagine that would be the case if we didn't disclose it (and I don't think "we" did).

[Surly Bevo 24573]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

You know, that may have been a factor into my son's admission.  He has a 504 file.  Technically "ADHD", but that was just the bucket they put him in when we had him tested.  The testing folks mainly just said he should sit up front in class and take tests in a quiet environment, counselor's office, etc.  We never really did much of that.  I wonder if schools can see that such a file exists?  I can't imagine that would be the case if we didn't disclose it (and I don't think "we" did).

It's been almost 4 years but I am pretty sure it wasn't something you could disclose in any data-driven way through the application  Now my kid wrote about it so in that sense it was "disclosed"

This is what the Intergoogles have to say on the topic

 

Colleges are not allowed to ask students if they have a 504 plan. High school transcripts do not indicate if an accommodation has been made, nor are the SAT or ACT exams flagged. Colleges will only know if the student shares this information.

[jimmyjazz 45192]

OK, that makes sense -- anything else would seem to be damn near a HIPAA violation (or something analogous).

[dcbc 14248]

22 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

You know, that may have been a factor into my son's admission.  He has a 504 file.  Technically "ADHD", but that was just the bucket they put him in when we had him tested.  The testing folks mainly just said he should sit up front in class and take tests in a quiet environment, counselor's office, etc.  We never really did much of that.  I wonder if schools can see that such a file exists?  I can't imagine that would be the case if we didn't disclose it (and I don't think "we" did).

Both of my kids are 504'd for ADHD.  Older one didn't mention anything about it on his application.  But he decided to appeal the Plan 2 denial just to see if it may have been close.  He mentions his CapStone AP Research project, which relates to the Overprescription of ADHD Medication (he didn't last long on it).  But he doesn't talk about it otherwise.

Edited February 5 by dcbc

[Charles DeMar 221]

On 2/2/2024 at 10:48 AM, Saint Tacky said:

Good news. Bad news. Youngest was accepted to The University yesterday but received the "denial" option. That is to go to school at a "UT System University" for 30 credit hours, maintain a 3.2 GPA, and get guaranteed admission to Austin in Fall 2025.  Unfortunately, my kid already has so many dual credits from AP courses in high school, that there are not likely enough courses available for them to knock out the 30-hour requirement.

Losing guaranteed admission for following a more academically challenging path in high school. What a country.

Exact same for my guy.  True, he went for it applying for Plan II AND Computer Science, dinged all the way around. Will have 30+ credit hours and so UTSA or whatever doesn't work.  Lots of "WTF, UT" being uttered by my wife (class of 98) but ... it's uber competitive.

He is actually on campus right now appealing in person that his "top 1%" candidacy was perhaps not fully understood.  Long shot, but if not, he'll be fine, although it will be in a different state since he was UT or bust for his in-state apps.

 

Fun times.

[South Austin 51633]

2 hours ago, Charles DeMar said:

Exact same for my guy.  True, he went for it applying for Plan II AND Computer Science, dinged all the way around. Will have 30+ credit hours and so UTSA or whatever doesn't work.  Lots of "WTF, UT" being uttered by my wife (class of 98) but ... it's uber competitive.

He is actually on campus right now appealing in person that his "top 1%" candidacy was perhaps not fully understood.  Long shot, but if not, he'll be fine, although it will be in a different state since he was UT or bust for his in-state apps.

 

Fun times.

You’d make a fine little helper. What’s your name?

[dcbc 14248]

18 minutes ago, South Austin said:

You’d make a fine little helper. What’s your name?

Charles Demar.

[South Austin 51633]

Just now, dcbc said:

Charles Demar.

Shut up, geek.

[dcbc 14248]

Just now, South Austin said:

Shut up, geek.

And I only now see that his username checks out and your post didn't come entirely out of left field.

[Billy Pilgrim 1870]

22 hours ago, alphahydro said:

dead on, imo. 

i think it goes a long way if a personal statement reveals that a kid (a) is willing to follow a passion and (b) is capable of looking beyond the views he or she has been force fed by his or her local environment/family.   It also sounds like your son's story showed significant, authentic leadership/team building potential.   

my son plays high level soccer.  ever since he started, i said, imagine you are playing fifa and you can go up to each player at key points in the game, punch in a code and they play 10% better - you'd do that, right?  Same thing in real life, but the code is words and you gotta figure out what to say to each player.  like this: 

for some guys - and for otehr guys, you gotta yell at them.  lol

i also told him if you want to go to Harvard, take a year or two off and go play for an academy in spain/s.america/asia.  Then write your personal statement about it. 

Completely agree with the essay being a huge component. My daughter had great grades, great ACT score and good SAT score… and so did many of her cohort that didn’t get in. Her essay set her apart in my opinion.

She originally wrote a very serious essay that was extremely dry and uninteresting. Her college counselors, college consultant and I helped her revise it numerous times and it was still just uninteresting and nothing special. One night after about the 10th revision, she just said, “I hate this essay” and scraped it.

She and her sister were sitting on the couch brainstorming ideas and she jokingly said “I’m gonna write my essay about the Rock”. She went in her room and wrote a hysterical essay about the Rock and his influence on her. She sent it to her counselor and consultant who loved it. Only had 1 revision and sent it in.

The point is: don’t write what you think they want to hear. Write about what you love.

[Hagbard Celine 10544]

I am pleased to read that admissions are taking in to account a number of the topics cited in this thread.

Under current standards I never would have made the 40.   There are still way too many admissions that should never be taken at the expense of the truly capable or deserving, and I'm not talking about grades.

The System-7 paradigm ya'll are describing is admitting test takers over critical thinkers and achievers with ambition, and in my opinion the best way to moderate their presence in any admissions class would be a SAT/ACT style 1-hour extemporaneous interview with a panel of admissions experts.  The opening question would be "what would you like to talk about today?"  Questions should range the spectrum of topics - all disciplines - nothing off limits.  No wrong answers.  I want kids on the 40 who can think and do want to change the world.

From personal experience I cite a 3.7 Philosophy grad from the 40 in the last decade who used the word "like" 2 or 3 times in every sentence in an interview, and when asked what s/he wanted to do with their degree, and what were their goals in life, could only answer "i'm still trying to figure it out".   That kid took up a valuable place for 4 years and while s/he was admitted on grades and tests, would have been just fine at aggy.

[jimmyjazz 45192]

18 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

From personal experience I cite a 3.7 Philosophy grad from the 40 in the last decade who used the word "like" 2 or 3 times in every sentence in an interview,

One of my biggest pet peeves.  My stepdaughter (no pics) is a single mom who hates every job she ever gets, all of which pay low wages, and her language is peppered with "like".  She's nowhere near as dim as she comes across, but combined with her utter disinterest in leveraging her actual expertise (beauty/lashes) she's just completely unemployable in any meaningful sense.  Guess who carries her?  If she didn't have a young son I'd be far less charitable.

[YGIFS 19445]

2 hours ago, South Austin said:

You’d make a fine little helper. What’s your name?

Closer shave?   bwHHahahaha

[CleverNickname 1281]

Fwiw, I think the notion that senior in HS ought to have a concrete idea of what they want to do (let alone have substantive internships related to that) absolutely bonkers.

[Brew 2917]

4 minutes ago, CleverNickname said:

Fwiw, I think the notion that senior in HS ought to have a concrete idea of what they want to do (let alone have substantive internships related to that) absolutely bonkers.

If you want to get in the upper tier schools, it matters at this point. Between internships, jobs, camps, etc everything comes into play when evaluating applicants and it becomes more important with the highly selective schools and majors.

Edited February 5 by Brew

[Guest]

13 hours ago, CleverNickname said:

Fwiw, I think the notion that senior in HS ought to have a concrete idea of what they want to do (let alone have substantive internships related to that) absolutely bonkers.

That's absolutely fair.  I was that guy and chose the military out of high school.

That being said, if you're a kid who has a 2.5 high school GPA, played one sport and otherwise did no ECs or cummunity involvement and worked at the pool during the summer; there's nothing wrong with that being your high school experience.  You're still going to be at a very distinct competitive disadvantage for admission any elite college program.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

Derail (slight). Back in 1990, 21.3% of the U.S. population had a college degree. As of 2022, that increased to 37.7% (both genders). One thing that some folks don't consider is how often women were discouraged from attending college in the not so distant past. Money was one of the factors in that regard--males were seen as a better investment for future prospects. Perhaps not so much with the upper/white collar classes, but among other things, Title IX began to really get rolling, loans became more readily available, and birth control prices dropped, women started competing for admissions slots. In 1970, 8.1% of US females had a bachelor's degree (males 13.5%), by the year 2000, it was 22.9% (males 26.1%). (I pulled this from some government census data tables). The doc I grabbed this from ended at 2000 and currently, that percentage now stands at 39%, with males, which had peaked at around 37-38%, dropping to around 36%.

The solution is NOT to deny females admission (which does seem to be a policy advocated by certain quarters in the political realm-no CR) but to recognize that the field has grown more competitive. Higher education, technical (vocational) education, lifelong learning, and other educational endeavors have sometimes been a battleground between the abstract and the concrete when it comes to purpose, career paths,  and society.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11536]

10 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

The solution is NOT to deny females admission

yes it is.

[HenryJames 65525]

 I'm always beneath you, but nothing is beneath me!

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11536]

3 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 I'm always beneath you, but nothing is beneath me!

bingo

[tx 3 putt 75476]

TikTok at #utcapped has all the tips and suggestions 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

9 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 I'm always beneath you, but nothing is beneath me!

I disagree; quite a few of the elite schools admissions officers have discussed that they admit males with lower quality packets in order to keep a gender balance from becoming too skewed. Perhaps the discussion (in society) could be what are the factors for students of both genders to achieve their potential in higher education that doesn't 'punish' either? I believe that the stress placed on students (Slorch mentioned this a little) to have all the ducks in a row with respect to life goals, degree plans, and four year completion likely favors females to males. How can society assist young people so that those that need a little more time aren't completely shunted off on a dead end path?

Perhaps I shouldn't have derailed the thread as this is specific to UT-Austin, and UT has around equal percentages of genders applying but the admission and enrolled rates definitely favor females. Hispanic females and white females enrolled at the same percentage in 2023. One would likely need to parse that data down to the top % rule to see if that is one of the factors influencing those acceptance rates with respect to gender.

I'll leave that topic for now as it got into the weeds a little.

[Guest]

Off in theweeds looking at admissions rates.

Then you stumble upon women having higher rate of student loan debt... holy shit moments abound.  https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-gender

I say that and have 2 daughters-in-law with their Masters and no debt.  Borderline miraculous, but both of them did take out loans that were paid off in short order.

 

[Surly Bevo 24573]

If you are interested in how dramatically things have changed in 30 or so years....

[DaysOff 7683]

Can't believe there were 5k that were rejected in '85.

[yoladu 4045]

On 2/10/2024 at 9:14 AM, Surly Bevo said:

If you are interested in how dramatically things have changed in 30 or so years....

whoa.. those average SAT scores.

now I am seeing how i got in in 1986 😀

........well that and Top 10% rule back in my day.

[hornian 5160]

Ok, humble brag time but I do have an issue with my kids I don't know how to handle, and would love some advice:

Lots of folks are on here are posting things like "There's no way I could get into UT now" - but I'm in the opposite boat - I'd have no problem getting into UT these days with my grades/scores from 20+ years ago. I was 4th in my class (not 4%, 4th), and had a ~1500 SAT. And I didn't really work hard at it. Never took any prep courses for the SAT, didn't have to cram to study - it all just came pretty easy for me. I was that kid in high school who did all of his homework in the cafeteria right before the bell rang and got all the questions correct, or who could read the 350 page novel for English once and remember everything about it without a problem, or who finished their test first and aced it and then got in trouble for disrupting the class because I was bored since everyone was slower than me. There was this time in AP physics where I just "got" the concept (I don't remember what it was now), and the teacher asked me to come and explain it to the class, but I couldn't explain how it worked, it just made sense to me and I could work it out in my head but not explain what was going on to get to the correct answer. I was the only person who got an A on that test. I also lettered in more than one sport, was in UIL academics, and still had time to get drunk enough at a party to go the hospital for alcohol poisoning because, again, I just didn't need to study hard so I could do all of that stuff and keep my grades up. To some extent UT was a "wake up call" - but it's because I got some Bs my freshman year instead of all As. The only C I ever got in my life was crim law my 1L year of Law School, and even then it was because 1) crim law just didn't engage me, and 2) crim law was on Tuesday/Thursday afternoons in the Spring, and I would skip a lot of Tuesday classes to go watch baseball games at the Disch (it's not my fault they built the Law School so close to the baseball stadium).

The problem is I don't think my kids will be like that - I love them, and they are smart kids who aren't struggling academically, but they aren't testing the way I was testing at their ages. My oldest is in 2nd grade and is doing fine - but I distinctly remember taking some standardized test in 1st grade and the school talking to my parents because I had gotten the highest score in the whole grade and they wanted to see about me skipping grades (to my parent's credit - they didn't make me skip grades, and I'm glad they didn't as I think that my social skills would have suffered if I did). She's in the top 85% of her class with her MAP scores, so she's smart and gets the concepts, but she's not the smartest kid in the school smart (which I'm fine with, or course). 

I still have a lot of time, but I don't know what I need to do to help them be prepared because I didn't need the help myself - so I don't have anything to fall back on as "well, this worked for me." Is anyone else in this boat, and is there anything that has helped you give your kids the assistance they will need at times when you didn't need it yourself when you were their age?

Edited February 12 by hornian

[South Austin 51633]

9 minutes ago, hornian said:

Ok, humble brag time but I do have an issue with my kids I don't know how to handle, and would love some advice:

Lots of folks are on here are posting things like "There's no way I could get into UT now" - but I'm in the opposite boat - I'd have no problem getting into UT these days with my grades/scores from 20+ years ago. I was 4th in my class (not 4%, 4th), and had a ~1500 SAT. And I didn't really work hard at it. Never took any prep courses for the SAT, didn't have to cram to study - it all just came pretty easy for me. I was that kid in high school who did all of his homework in the cafeteria right before the bell rang and got all the questions correct, or who could read the 350 page novel for English once and remember everything about it without a problem, or who finished their test first and aced it and then got in trouble for disrupting the class because I was bored since everyone was slower than me. There was this time in AP physics where I just "got" the concept (I don't remember what it was now), and the teacher asked me to come and explain it to the class, but I couldn't explain how it worked, it just made sense to me and I could work it out in my head but not explain what was going on to get to the correct answer. I was the only person who got an A on that test. I also lettered in more than one sport, was in UIL academics, and still had time to get drunk enough at a party to go the hospital for alcohol poisoning because, again, I just didn't need to study hard so I could do all of that stuff and keep my grades up. To some extent UT was a "wake up call" - but it's because I got some Bs my freshman year instead of all As. The only C I ever got in my life was crim law my 1L year of Law School, and even then it was because 1) crim law just didn't engage me, and 2) crim law was on Tuesday/Thursday afternoons in the Spring, and I would skip a lot of Tuesday classes to go watch baseball games at the Disch (it's not my fault they built the Law School so close to the baseball stadium).

The problem is I don't think my kids will be like that - I love them, and they are smart kids who aren't struggling academically, but they aren't testing the way I was testing at their ages. My oldest is in 2nd grade and is doing fine - but I distinctly remember taking some standardized test in 1st grade and the school talking to my parents because I had gotten the highest score in the whole grade and they wanted to see about me skipping grades (to my parent's credit - they didn't make me skip grades, and I'm glad they didn't as I think that my social skills would have suffered if I did). She's in the top 85% of her class with her MAP scores, so she's smart and gets the concepts, but she's not the smartest kid in the school smart (which I'm fine with, or course). 

I still have a lot of time, but I don't know what I need to do to help them be prepared because I didn't need the help myself - so I don't have anything to fall back on as "well, this worked for me." Is anyone else in this boat, and is there anything that has helped you give your kids the assistance they will need at times when you didn't need it yourself when you were their age?

You’ve exceeded the humblebrag word limit.

[Surly Bevo 24573]

7 minutes ago, hornian said:

Ok, humble brag time but I do have an issue with my kids I don't know how to handle, and would love some advice:

Lots of folks are on here are posting things like "There's no way I could get into UT now" - but I'm in the opposite boat - I'd have no problem getting into UT these days with my grades/scores from 20+ years ago. I was 4th in my class (not 4%, 4th), and had a ~1500 SAT. And I didn't really work hard at it. Never took any prep courses for the SAT, didn't have to cram to study - it all just came pretty easy for me. I was that kid in high school who did all of his homework in the cafeteria right before the bell rang and got all the questions correct, or who could read the 350 page novel for English once and remember everything about it without a problem, or who finished their test first and aced it and then got in trouble for disrupting the class because I was bored since everyone was slower than me. There was this time in AP physics where I just "got" the concept (I don't remember what it was now), and the teacher asked me to come and explain it to the class, but I couldn't explain how it worked, it just made sense to me and I could work it out in my head but not explain what was going on to get to the correct answer. I was the only person who got an A on that test. I also lettered in more than one sport, was in UIL academics, and still had time to get drunk enough at a party to go the hospital for alcohol poisoning because, again, I just didn't need to study hard so I could do all of that stuff and keep my grades up. To some extent UT was a "wake up call" - but it's because I got some Bs my freshman year instead of all As. The only C I ever got in my life was crim law my 1L year of Law School, and even then it was because 1) crim law just didn't engage me, and 2) crim law was on Tuesday/Thursday afternoons in the Spring, and I would skip a lot of Tuesday classes to go watch baseball games at the Disch (it's not my fault they built the Law School so close to the baseball stadium).

The problem is I don't think my kids will be like that - I love them, and they are smart kids who aren't struggling academically, but they aren't testing the way I was testing at their ages. My oldest is in 2nd grade and is doing fine - but I distinctly remember taking some standardized test in 1st grade and the school talking to my parents because I had gotten the highest score in the whole grade and they wanted to see about me skipping grades (to my parent's credit - they didn't make me skip grades, and I'm glad they didn't as I think that my social skills would have suffered if I did). She's in the top 85% of her class with her MAP scores, so she's smart and gets the concepts, but she's not the smartest kid in the school smart (which I'm fine with, or course). 

I still have a lot of time, but I don't know what I need to do to help them be prepared because I didn't need the help myself - so I don't have anything to fall back on as "well, this worked for me." Is anyone else in this boat, and is there anything that has helped you give your kids the assistance they will need at times when you didn't need it yourself when you were their age?

I dunno if there is much to do right now if your oldest is in 2nd grade.  First, it's a good 8-9 years before that one will be taking truly meaningful tests (SAT/ACT, APs, whatever).  Second, who the hell knows what the college admissions landscape looks like at that point.  There is about to be a significant drop off in the coming years in total number of kids of age to apply to college (mainly drawing back to the start of the Great Recession and a fairly significant decrease in the number of children being born each year) not to mention when it comes to testing and how heavily colleges do or do not emphasize it A LOT can change.  

Encourage their interests, help them with school when they need it, but don't stress them the hell out....there will be plenty of time for that.  

[Bateshorn 9595]

I've posted this before, but I've had numerous admissions officers tell me "Well rounded applicants roll off the final admissions table." They'd rather see a dedicated drama kid who went all in and can speak interestingly and eloquently to that passion, than East Coast Becky, who was cheerleader, soccer captain, student body vice president, soup kitchen maven, and leader of the church choir. I had a friend whose school mate did admissions at Princeton and one year they let all the qualified tuba players in, because the marching band graduated a bunch of tuba players.  Grades and test scores are likely all sparkling at a certain level of ranked school and above, so they want to get to know you through the application as a human and not a perfectly curated applicant. 

Let your kid be a kid.  When they get to 7th and 8th grade, if they organically develop a passion for something, encourage it.  Then develop a Deep Safety, Safety, Match, Reach, and Lottery school list, cross reference it to cost, apply early. 

Edited February 13 by Bateshorn

[alphahydro 332]

I was interested enough to google and skim this, but not interested enough to look at it in depth.  but it looks like the SAT scores were re-centered twice (?) once in 1995 and again in 2016, so the historical scores might need to be adjusted. 

 https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/t/sat-now-2018-vs-then-1995-2004-and-pre-january-1994/2022500/54

A 500/500 pre-1995 translates to 1170 (+170) today. A 420/380 would be a 1010 (+210). And a 1600 is still a 1600 (+0).

+90 and +70 would be an average mid-range jump

If that's true, 1994's 1135 = ~1295 today, which isn't as far off from today's 1355 SAT score average.  And is 1355 the average for matriculating students or just accepted students?  idk. 

apologies if this was discussed somewhere earlier in the thread - or if this is widely known. 

i've wondered about admissions rates going down over time.  how much of it is increased college applicants vs available college seats, and how much of it is people firing off more applications (perhaps due in part to techmology and in part due to grade inflation making everyone think they have a chance)?  

undergrad application is obviously a more competitive deal than it was in 1994. 

i refuse to believe that the top 10% of 18 year olds are any smarter now than they were in 1994 (get off my lawn - tho i wasn't 18 yet in 94).  but perhaps that 10% includes more people now.  shrug.  one of those things that was always interesting enough to wonder about, but never interesting enough for me to really investigate. 

if there's a good, comprehensive, well-accepted answer to why acceptance rates have dropped, i'm curious what it is. 

for example = looking at yale (came up first in my search)

https://oir.yale.edu/sites/default/files/w033_fresh_admissions.pdf

applications tripled between 1995 and 2018.  how much of that was people just firing off more applications?  is yale 3x more selective?  or are they now just churning through a bunch more apps from people who would have been denied admission in 1995? 

gen x is a small generation.  and the demographics of ppl applying to college have expanded.  so it was probably "easier" for the same caliber applicant to get into a good school in 1995 compared to now.  but how much easier?  and how different was it at Yale vs Texas?  Perhaps at Harvard or Yale not so much, as there are always only so many super-achievers, but maybe at less selective schools, theres a big difference?  Maybe it's just that a 60th percentile admit at Texas in 1995 had a 65% chance of admission - whereas now it's 30% - though that same applicant will have a 65% chance of getting accepted to a "peer" school.  you just have to apply to more places now, because kids are firing off so many more applications.

I think it's all of the above, but i wonder how much of each bit. 

people see the inflated grades, inflated SAT scores, change in ethos toward building a resume during high school and think "I wouldn't get into my alma mater if i had to apply today" but idk how true that necessarily is.  you woulda worked prolly just as hard relative to your classmates as you did back then, and your GPA and SAT woulda been inflated.  shrug.

[alphahydro 332]

2 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I've posted this before, but I've had numerous admissions officers tell me "Well rounded applicants roll off the final admissions table." They'd rather see a dedicated drama kid who went all in and can speak interestingly and eloquently to that passion, than East Coast Becky, who was cheerleader, soccer captain, student body vice president, soup kitchen maven, and leader of the church choir. I had a friend whose school mate did admissions at Princeton and one year they let all the qualified tuba players in, because the marching band graduated a bunch of tuba players.  Grades and test scores are likely all sparkling at a certain level of ranked school and above, so they want to get to know you through the application as a human and not a perfectly curated applicant. 

Let your kid be a kid.  When they get to 7th and 8th grade, if they organically develop a passion for something, encourage it.  Then develop a Deep Safety, Safety, Match, Reach, and Lottery school list, cross reference it to cost, apply early. 

my kids have been told the same thing. 

apparently, the top schools no longer want applicants who take 17 APs.  They think it means you are probably a maniac.  they'd rather see you develop a passion. 

i'm no admissions counselor, but i think the goal for a personal statement should be that the person reading it would wanna grab a beer with you and hear more about the story you just told. 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11536]

On 2/12/2024 at 8:38 AM, hornian said:

Ok, humble brag time but I do have an issue with my kids I don't know how to handle, and would love some advice:

Lots of folks are on here are posting things like "There's no way I could get into UT now" - but I'm in the opposite boat - I'd have no problem getting into UT these days with my grades/scores from 20+ years ago. I was 4th in my class (not 4%, 4th), and had a ~1500 SAT. And I didn't really work hard at it. Never took any prep courses for the SAT, didn't have to cram to study - it all just came pretty easy for me. I was that kid in high school who did all of his homework in the cafeteria right before the bell rang and got all the questions correct, or who could read the 350 page novel for English once and remember everything about it without a problem, or who finished their test first and aced it and then got in trouble for disrupting the class because I was bored since everyone was slower than me. There was this time in AP physics where I just "got" the concept (I don't remember what it was now), and the teacher asked me to come and explain it to the class, but I couldn't explain how it worked, it just made sense to me and I could work it out in my head but not explain what was going on to get to the correct answer. I was the only person who got an A on that test. I also lettered in more than one sport, was in UIL academics, and still had time to get drunk enough at a party to go the hospital for alcohol poisoning because, again, I just didn't need to study hard so I could do all of that stuff and keep my grades up. To some extent UT was a "wake up call" - but it's because I got some Bs my freshman year instead of all As. The only C I ever got in my life was crim law my 1L year of Law School, and even then it was because 1) crim law just didn't engage me, and 2) crim law was on Tuesday/Thursday afternoons in the Spring, and I would skip a lot of Tuesday classes to go watch baseball games at the Disch (it's not my fault they built the Law School so close to the baseball stadium).

The problem is I don't think my kids will be like that - I love them, and they are smart kids who aren't struggling academically, but they aren't testing the way I was testing at their ages. My oldest is in 2nd grade and is doing fine - but I distinctly remember taking some standardized test in 1st grade and the school talking to my parents because I had gotten the highest score in the whole grade and they wanted to see about me skipping grades (to my parent's credit - they didn't make me skip grades, and I'm glad they didn't as I think that my social skills would have suffered if I did). She's in the top 85% of her class with her MAP scores, so she's smart and gets the concepts, but she's not the smartest kid in the school smart (which I'm fine with, or course). 

I still have a lot of time, but I don't know what I need to do to help them be prepared because I didn't need the help myself - so I don't have anything to fall back on as "well, this worked for me." Is anyone else in this boat, and is there anything that has helped you give your kids the assistance they will need at times when you didn't need it yourself when you were their age?

get her into a SAT prep now.  there's a thursday class that starts next week.  

[bluto 4814]

And get her that diptet immediately, gotta avoid lockjaw!

[alphahydro 332]

fwiw, i think the move from "we're looking for kids who take 18 APs" to "we are looking for kids with a passion" can be just as dangerous for parents. 

imo, you gotta let your kids find their interests on their own time.  trying to make little johnny find a passion at 12-15 (with an eye toward his college app) can be unhealthy, imo.  and i think a lot of parents are gonna fall into that trap. 

i had no idea what i wanted to be when i started undergrad. 

my brother started in philosophy at community college, then art at a crappy college, then ended up finding an interest in physics.  he ended up with a super full ride+ in the phd program in physics at stanford.  

a good chunk of the people i know who are insanely successful didn't go to top colleges at all.

my son randomly developed a deep interest in chemistry (apparently there are people who are drawn to chemistry - shrug).  my daughter, who is a year older than her brother, hasn't found her thing yet.  nbd, imo. 

[4th&Five 41184]

My dad's first question to my 15yo every time we see him is "do you know what your going to major in in college yet?"  smdh

[66BUFF 2539]

11 minutes ago, alphahydro said:

fwiw, i think the move from "we're looking for kids who take 18 APs" to "we are looking for kids with a passion" can be just as dangerous for parents. 

imo, you gotta let your kids find their interests on their own time.  trying to make little johnny find a passion at 12-15 (with an eye toward his college app) can be unhealthy, imo.  and i think a lot of parents are gonna fall into that trap. 

i had no idea what i wanted to be when i started undergrad. 

my brother started in philosophy at community college, then art at a crappy college, then ended up finding an interest in physics.  he ended up with a super full ride+ in the phd program in physics at stanford.  

a good chunk of the people i know who are insanely successful didn't go to top colleges at all.

my son randomly developed a deep interest in chemistry (apparently there are people who are drawn to chemistry - shrug).  my daughter, who is a year older than her brother, hasn't found her thing yet.  nbd, imo. 

He watching a lot of Breaking Bad?

[South Austin 51633]

3 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I've posted this before, but I've had numerous admissions officers tell me "Well rounded applicants roll off the final admissions table." They'd rather see a dedicated drama kid who went all in and can speak interestingly and eloquently to that passion, than East Coast Becky, who was cheerleader, soccer captain, student body vice president, soup kitchen maven, and leader of the church choir.

I read about this a lot over the past year in preparing for my daughter's college application process.  Yes, the general consensus now seems to be, encourage your kid to have a more narrow focus of their time and energy in extracurricular activities so their resume doesn't look something like Max Fisher in Rushmore. 

But I don't think you over correct and tell your kid, "Just focus on chemistry, join (or form) the Chemistry Club, and teach chemistry to the homeless," or something along the lines. 

I think there's a sweet spot.  And my daughter has been engaged in a lot of areas -- varsity basketball, classical guitar major who made All State, officer of the Science Honor Society (I didn't even know that was a thing) who has tutored other students in chemistry, and a few others.  She's far from a resume padder, and is just a social student who has always managed to hang around with different groups of the student population.

[Paper_jam 828]

On 2/12/2024 at 8:38 AM, hornian said:

Ok, humble brag time but I do have an issue with my kids I don't know how to handle, and would love some advice:

Lots of folks are on here are posting things like "There's no way I could get into UT now" - but I'm in the opposite boat - I'd have no problem getting into UT these days with my grades/scores from 20+ years ago. I was 4th in my class (not 4%, 4th), and had a ~1500 SAT. And I didn't really work hard at it. Never took any prep courses for the SAT, didn't have to cram to study - it all just came pretty easy for me. I was that kid in high school who did all of his homework in the cafeteria right before the bell rang and got all the questions correct, or who could read the 350 page novel for English once and remember everything about it without a problem, or who finished their test first and aced it and then got in trouble for disrupting the class because I was bored since everyone was slower than me. There was this time in AP physics where I just "got" the concept (I don't remember what it was now), and the teacher asked me to come and explain it to the class, but I couldn't explain how it worked, it just made sense to me and I could work it out in my head but not explain what was going on to get to the correct answer. I was the only person who got an A on that test. I also lettered in more than one sport, was in UIL academics, and still had time to get drunk enough at a party to go the hospital for alcohol poisoning because, again, I just didn't need to study hard so I could do all of that stuff and keep my grades up. To some extent UT was a "wake up call" - but it's because I got some Bs my freshman year instead of all As. The only C I ever got in my life was crim law my 1L year of Law School, and even then it was because 1) crim law just didn't engage me, and 2) crim law was on Tuesday/Thursday afternoons in the Spring, and I would skip a lot of Tuesday classes to go watch baseball games at the Disch (it's not my fault they built the Law School so close to the baseball stadium).

The problem is I don't think my kids will be like that - I love them, and they are smart kids who aren't struggling academically, but they aren't testing the way I was testing at their ages. My oldest is in 2nd grade and is doing fine - but I distinctly remember taking some standardized test in 1st grade and the school talking to my parents because I had gotten the highest score in the whole grade and they wanted to see about me skipping grades (to my parent's credit - they didn't make me skip grades, and I'm glad they didn't as I think that my social skills would have suffered if I did). She's in the top 85% of her class with her MAP scores, so she's smart and gets the concepts, but she's not the smartest kid in the school smart (which I'm fine with, or course). 

I still have a lot of time, but I don't know what I need to do to help them be prepared because I didn't need the help myself - so I don't have anything to fall back on as "well, this worked for me." Is anyone else in this boat, and is there anything that has helped you give your kids the assistance they will need at times when you didn't need it yourself when you were their age?

I don't have kids, so I can't offer anything from the perspective of a parent. But I do have the experience of being the child of highly educated, intelligent parents who put a lot of pressure on me to succeed academically. My dad was a literal genius. I was merely a good student, considerably above average in most subjects, but not a genius or 1600 SAT material. My recollections and suggestions follow. (A lot of this is Parenting 101, but as smart as they were, my parent's weren't always great at this.)

1) While helping your kids study or do homework, try not to show impatience or anger if they are slow to catch on to something. My dad tried to be patient with me, but still there was enough of a gulf between us that it was apparent that he was frustrated that I wasn't getting it. It made me feel, well, dumb. Which, in comparison to him, I was. But he had at least 40 IQ points on me.

2) Don't push your kids into advanced classes or grades that they aren't prepared for. In middle school my parents lobbied hard to get me into "GT"-level classes for English, math, science, etc. Which was OK in the case of English and science subjects, I did well at those. But I was not, and still am not, adept at math, especially abstract math. I was hopelessly lost in that math class, and it was frustrating and embarrassing, and led to further problems described in my point 3 below.

3) If you put too much pressure on a kid to excel with grades, it can have counterproductive results. For example, I was failing the aforementioned math class. The right thing to do would have been to tell my parents/teacher that I couldn't do it, or that I needed extra help, or something along those lines. But I was much too afraid about my parent's reaction to handle it that way. Instead, I tried to cover up my poor grades as long as I could. (I altered my report card.) Giving my parents a report card with a D or F on it was just unthinkable. Of course I eventually got caught, and I even knew I was pretty likely to get caught--but at the time I didn't really feel like I had much to lose.

 

[bschoolprof 6221]

On 2/12/2024 at 8:38 AM, hornian said:

Ok, humble brag time but I do have an issue with my kids I don't know how to handle, and would love some advice:

Lots of folks are on here are posting things like "There's no way I could get into UT now" - but I'm in the opposite boat - I'd have no problem getting into UT these days with my grades/scores from 20+ years ago. I was 4th in my class (not 4%, 4th), and had a ~1500 SAT. And I didn't really work hard at it. Never took any prep courses for the SAT, didn't have to cram to study - it all just came pretty easy for me. I was that kid in high school who did all of his homework in the cafeteria right before the bell rang and got all the questions correct, or who could read the 350 page novel for English once and remember everything about it without a problem, or who finished their test first and aced it and then got in trouble for disrupting the class because I was bored since everyone was slower than me. There was this time in AP physics where I just "got" the concept (I don't remember what it was now), and the teacher asked me to come and explain it to the class, but I couldn't explain how it worked, it just made sense to me and I could work it out in my head but not explain what was going on to get to the correct answer. I was the only person who got an A on that test. I also lettered in more than one sport, was in UIL academics, and still had time to get drunk enough at a party to go the hospital for alcohol poisoning because, again, I just didn't need to study hard so I could do all of that stuff and keep my grades up. To some extent UT was a "wake up call" - but it's because I got some Bs my freshman year instead of all As. The only C I ever got in my life was crim law my 1L year of Law School, and even then it was because 1) crim law just didn't engage me, and 2) crim law was on Tuesday/Thursday afternoons in the Spring, and I would skip a lot of Tuesday classes to go watch baseball games at the Disch (it's not my fault they built the Law School so close to the baseball stadium).

The problem is I don't think my kids will be like that - I love them, and they are smart kids who aren't struggling academically, but they aren't testing the way I was testing at their ages. My oldest is in 2nd grade and is doing fine - but I distinctly remember taking some standardized test in 1st grade and the school talking to my parents because I had gotten the highest score in the whole grade and they wanted to see about me skipping grades (to my parent's credit - they didn't make me skip grades, and I'm glad they didn't as I think that my social skills would have suffered if I did). She's in the top 85% of her class with her MAP scores, so she's smart and gets the concepts, but she's not the smartest kid in the school smart (which I'm fine with, or course). 

I still have a lot of time, but I don't know what I need to do to help them be prepared because I didn't need the help myself - so I don't have anything to fall back on as "well, this worked for me." Is anyone else in this boat, and is there anything that has helped you give your kids the assistance they will need at times when you didn't need it yourself when you were their age?

Same boat: #2 in my 6A high school, 1500 SAT, coasted through school, bla bla, but my kids are not scholars.  Except along the way I got a PhD instead of going to law school. It was there - taking graduate level classes in math and econometrics - that I realized I was far from the smartest guy in the room. I had to study my ass off just to figure out what hell was going on. It was quite humbling and I learned how to be good student.  

So my advice is to give up your law career and get a PhD in math.  You will then have good study habits to teach your kids.  

  

 

[CleverNickname 1281]

I have one that is a natural academic high achiever and another that is smart, but a satisficer who is okay coasting in that cohort below the GT crowd. (Second has natural confidence, lack of anxiety, positive disposition and social nature that I'd bet he makes more money in the real world. Unearned confidence of white boys is a super power.)

All purpose advice: Focus on teaching grit. Help them work hard, encourage them to do the grind on their own initiative. That levelto be a chellenge but not too hard) may vary based on the kid, but just teach them that its okay to sometimes have to work hard. Encourage non academic sports and hobbies that don't come easy. Develop those good habits and attitude and they'll be happy and productive adults. Now maybe grit cannot really be taught. I dunno. So I also tell myself kid #2 can be fine with a degree from Texas State or Tech, or be a cop, or use that 529 money too be a linesman or electrician. 

Basically just pinch yourself, because I know *so many* super smart couples with kid(s) that struggle on the spectrum. My theory is assortive mating means 2 smart parents make kids that can be outliers. I pray those kids end up fine too. If you don't have those struggles, parenting is on easy mode.

[Fudge Nuggets 18977]

On 2/2/2024 at 2:15 PM, Fudge Nuggets said:

My kid got CAP’ed but he’s going to turn it down because he doesn’t want to do a poverty major.  His school had just over 200 kids apply to UT last year and over 100 were accepted.  This year they had about 220 apply and 10 got accepted.  I guess his class is 90% dumber than last year’s.

Following up, all is good in casa de Fudge.  The boy got accepted to West Point today.  He's kind of a big deal now.