Kicking the FG Instead of Going For it on 4th

[SilasCoade 2622]

7 minutes ago, cafe society said:

And?  That has zero to do with the later decision to kick the FG.  Unless you assume that curling up in the fetal position because an earlier 4th and 1 went sideways.  We were kicking the living shit out of them on that drive, Johnson and Klatt kept commenting on our OL domination on that drive.  How many of you thought our defense was up to the task of stopping them?  How many of you thought Holgorsen would kick the PAT?  

Why do people not understand that you go for it on 4th if you trust your defense. Otherwise you take points whenever you can. 

[Bateshorn 9927]

I’m not going to judge the call, but this teams lack of an under center QB sneak is awful. 

[Droopy 2626]

2 hours ago, Tx_2_Sc85 said:

And as the head coach you should know that your defense sucks ass and make decisions accordingly. He should’ve gone for it and if he had it to do again he would 100%. He’s got to quit coaching not to lose all the damn time. We’ve been lucky to win as many games as we have this year with that mentality. And that mentality is why teams like KSU, Tulsa, OU, and Baylor were able to claw back into it. 

Fucking this. Herman does this every game. Dude needs to nut up and step on throats.

[NameWithHeld 101]

39 minutes ago, hookem48 said:

yes they were, Herman said they talked about it during the timeout, if the slant wasn't there the qb would run and our freshman got sucked inside and held but no way they're calling it.

So they were ready and still got fucking played. 

[DanTheHorn 4922]

It was the right decision. Taking points will win you a game if your defense shows up. This defense has been absent since 8 minutes to go in the Oklahoma game.

[Lat22 4014]

3 hours ago, Michael Knight said:

Next you'll complain we scored too fast

We did. We should have run the ball a few more times and tried a FG. The whole stadium knew we weren’t going to hold them on that last drive. 

[phdhorn 6224]

35 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Can't wait to see what all Tom Herman recruit-built team looks like.

Our QB room alone went from what the fuck to stacked.

Meanwhile, the defense - including Herman recruits - has regressed badly.  We had a bunch of young guys fooled all game - no doubt they were spelling some of the older players, but it's not that simple.  I mean on that last TD, Sterns (F) and Thompson (So) got totally burnt on the #1 thing you don't do - let the guy past you.  I mean holy shit.  Sterns has regressed alarmingly from his great play the early part of the season.

If they can't figure out how to keep our players from getting shittier during a season (which has plagued us for almost a decade) It doesn't matter whether Tom Herman or Herman Munster recruits.  We're gonna suck on D.

No doubt Ehlinger is starting to show what his potential can be, but I worry about his health and all the running.  But like I said, when the D was playing well the O sucked, now it's the other way around.  Jeezus, can't we field a fucking complete team for once (OU of course comes to mind, but remember our D started getting TORCHED the 4th quarter and hasn't looked back (to being consistent) since).
 

It's not about "Herman's guys".  It's about coaching players to stop sucking the longer they stay here.

Edited November 4, 2018 by phdhorn

[Zavala 1384]

19 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

Meanwhile, the defense - including Herman recruits - has regressed badly.  We had a bunch of young guys fooled all game - no doubt they were spelling some of the older players, but it's not that simple.  I mean on that last TD, Sterns (F) and Thompson (So) got totally burnt on the #1 thing you don't do - let the guy past you.  I mean holy shit.  Sterns has regressed alarmingly from his great play the early part of the season.

If they can't figure out how to keep our players from getting shittier during a season (which has plagued us for almost a decade) It doesn't matter whether Tom Herman or Herman Munster recruits.  We're gonna suck on D.

No doubt Ehlinger is starting to show what his potential can be, but I worry about his health and all the running.  But like I said, when the D was playing well the O sucked, now it's the other way around.  Jeezus, can't we field a fucking complete team for once (OU of course comes to mind, but remember our D started getting TORCHED the 4th quarter and hasn't looked back (to being consistent) since).
 

It's not about "Herman's guys".  It's about coaching players to stop sucking the longer they stay here.

True freshman shouldn't be starting all over the field. Fact is the best players on the defense all left early, and sat their rookie year in the NFL for it after getting picked late as fuck in the draft. 

Sterns is going to need more experience and practice before he can consistently play really well at safety. He's also out there making shit tons of tackles on run plays because the rest of the front 7 can't get off fucking blocks. He will be just fine and we will have another Desean Elliot or better for 2 or 3 years, but this year will be a bunch of growing pains.

BJ Foster is impressive, Cook is holding up back there, Overshown Adeoye, and Ossai are going to be good to go. We can hopefully reload the fuck out of the DL and get stronger there, but the future looks bright for the Defense. They also got to recruit for the system TO runs.

The offense as well, the longer this system is in place they will get better and better. Imagine a redshirt junior Cam Rising or Casey Thompson making his first start with 3 full years of learning before getting thrown out there. The O line looks better with a half year under HH, and the skill positions will keep getting reloaded. 

Another thing I'm seeing from Hermans guys is no showboating. No bullshitting off the field. We had the starting running back with charlie strong tweeting at fucking halftime bitching about playcalling. These guys all thought they were bigshots without ever doing jack shit at Texas.

https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-texas/article37902249.html

Edited November 4, 2018 by Zavala

[dcar00 14182]

Herman has to know that we have to end the game with the ball in our hands OR be up by 2 scores.  we got away with Baylor but that game should have been a 2 score game if our kicker hadn't missed 2 FG's.  That said it's hard to blame him for taking the points.  if we lose by 3 and WVU goes for 1 it would be just as bad.

Again a game where everything went right for the other team.  officiating calls continuing drives, herman taking the TO on the missed FG, overule on 4th and 1 instead of kicking it, even though we had the 1st on the previous play,

I'm really tired of our D looking like hammered dog shit in the first half.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10234]

1 hour ago, Llogg said:

Why do people not understand that you go for it on 4th if you trust your defense. Otherwise you take points whenever you can. 

Why do people not understand this logic does NOT apply in the Big XII? 

[Murfdogg21 4412]

“Every time you kick a field goal you are 3 points closer to losing.”

It was true today. 

[Hamttx 419]

Jesus Christ, do some of you even watch other teams in this conference? There is some serious parity. Fucking Rhule has Baylor back to looking decent. You’re going to drive yourselfs crazy cherry picking a few plays that coulda, woulda, shoulda.

And I agree, everyone pretty much knew they would sustain a drive on that last possession. But, that pretty much is how every game in the Big12 seems to play out. Because everyone has enough offensive power that they can make a run when they know they are behind and have nothing to lose if they don’t. So they throw caution to the wind let it all hang out and take chances. Even with Texas having the best defense in the league, it’s still a tall order to completely shut these types of attacks down when the opponent is knowingly taking chances.

For reference go watch the LSU’s retarded attempt at such an endeavor last night. Sonny Six Thumbs, who the Ogre is completely misusing by the way. Pretty much like Guz is doing with Stidem. Couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a bazooka. In our league we can run hitches, posts and curls when the opponent plays man, and you know, complete them.

[scottsins 1966]

Dude, playing conservative? We just scored 41 points on a team giving up 19.6 on the season. He kicked a FG to go up by 7 after previously failing on 4th and 1 on the last drive. Fucking bitch about something actually worth bitching about. Like trying to ice a kicker at half time.

What’s wrong with trying to ice the kicker? Like, what’s the downside?

While we are on the subject though, do the college rules still allow you to take multiple “icing” timeouts on the same attempt? If so, o don’t understand why you wouldn’t burn all 3. I’ve seen that shit work before on 40+ attempts because somehow, kickers get tired, I guess.

[scottsins 1966]

Exactly.  Not sure why the official mentioned the helmet on the replay explanation.
He was clearly down with the ball outside the 4 yard line.
The helmet was irrelevant.

There was no camera angle directly at the line to gain. If you want to use geometry to establish that he was short? Fine. I would like that same logic applied to the last Okie Lite TD. To overturn a spot, by the way, requires that you have indisputable evidence of where he correct spot should be.

[phdhorn 6224]

2 hours ago, Hamttx said:

Even with Texas having the best defense in the league..

Wut?  Texas' defense statistically is fourth in the Big 12, which makes it almost halfway down the list.

Iowa state has the best defense in the conference and it will be fun to watch good defense at DKR.

[po elvis 2070]

14 hours ago, Texas25 said:

The DEFENSE giving up 42 FUCKING POINTS cost us the game numb nuts

not really. two plays in the 3rd quarter cost us the game. 2nd and goal at the 1 and we run sideways and lose 4 yards. 4th and 1 and we run sideways and turn the ball over. We turned 14 points into 3.  that cost us the game. this game was going to be a shootout. you just have to realize that. you just can't waste those opportunities by being stupid in your playcalling.

[po elvis 2070]

5 hours ago, scottsins said:

 

What’s wrong with trying to ice the kicker? Like, what’s the downside?

While we are on the subject though, do the college rules still allow you to take multiple “icing” timeouts on the same attempt? If so, o don’t understand why you wouldn’t burn all 3. I’ve seen that shit work before on 40+ attempts because somehow, kickers get tired, I guess.

 

icing the kicker is fine. but you don't call the timeout so late that he gets a free practice kick. that practice kick is the best thing a kicker can have. call the timeout before that.

[Slacks 6819]

12 hours ago, phdhorn said:

Graham made a terrible inside move at first, ugh, awful, when he thought Grier was going center or right.  But then Grier shifted quickly to the left, Graham was in a terrible position, he got spun around and by then it was too late.

But the worst one was McCullough.  His first step at the snap was back, then he also got suckered inside.  When the play developed, you could see he was the slot guy, had that gap.  If he would have stayed there it would have been a lot closer.  But he drifted WAY too fucking far inside and got completely screened by the scrum.  He lost sight of Grier and didn't regain it until Grier clearly had the angle.  Man all he would have had to do is to stay put and it was a different story.

By the way, I didn't see any holding on that play, at least to the left side of the O.  Texas' guys were clearly fooled  - again - and beaten.

But I'm not centering on that play.  The defense was getting tooled all day just like that.

Yeah, seeing Shark miss like that was a surprise. Freshman Shark would have been all over that combo slant/run combo. He played that so well in HS.

[phdhorn 6224]

Grier said that run was the 4th of his 4 options on the play.  Once he saw Graham's cut in and McCulloghs back step then run to his left, he knew it was over and skipped over options 2 and 3.

[Nivek 16928]

It was the right call. The issue was the bad spot and the lack of holding being called against those cunts.

[Sgt Hulk 13716]

Meh tech and Iowa State will likely destroy this defense I can see another 1000 yards given up like the last 2 500 yard weeks.  Seeing this defense give up over 2k yards in 4 weeks is impressive 

[Nivek 16928]

I thought so.  Should've at least reviewed it.  If he was short at all, it was by a foot at most.

It wasnt short at all. He made it. Melton scored as well.

[po elvis 2070]

3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

It was the right call. The issue was the bad spot and the lack of holding being called against those cunts.

i thought you had the kick the FG to go up by 7. if you are up by 3, you go for it.

hell, we just missed a 4th and 1 earlier. we are not that good at that play. we have one play. we run Sam. if we are good at 4th and 1 then maybe.

[Slacks 6819]

25 minutes ago, po elvis said:

not really. two plays in the 3rd quarter cost us the game. 2nd and goal at the 1 and we run sideways and lose 4 yards. 4th and 1 and we run sideways and turn the ball over. We turned 14 points into 3.  that cost us the game. this game was going to be a shootout. you just have to realize that. you just can't waste those opportunities by being stupid in your playcalling.

So, you're saying the defense didn't give up 42?

 

41 should be enough. Our defense cannot stop the run for dick, and I believe it is a schematic issue.  We are always a light box. I mean, PJ Locke is the enforcer at times. Good luck.  Gary Johnson is fast, but light. Wheeler is slow.  If we're going to run this, we need a faster Wheeler and a bigger Gary Johnson. We need a Malik and Shark type player (in terms of size / speed) to help stop the run. We need discipline at DE. We need a monster at NT - someone either unblockable (Ed Oliver) or big and fast enough to eat two OL (Poona was really good)

All night I saw the OL and a HB/TE double our guys, then reach the second level and seal. Hell, I was hoping WVU would pass more often, giving us a chance for an INC or a sack or INT.  But, alas, our safety play was terrible, because we were getting sucked up by run action.

We still need players, but we also need to optimize what we have. I'm not sure we're doing that on defense. 

 

Yes,  we're still feeling the effects of poor defensive recruiting and poor player development from a long time ago. We're better than we were, but we need stacks on stacks of middle of the field players on defense if we want to win. We can get DBs ready. We need LBs and DTs.

 

[4th&Five 41534]

Yes. The defense fucking sucks so Herman should know more than anybody that a 2 possession lead was necessary at that point to get a win. 

[po elvis 2070]

21 minutes ago, Snacks said:

So, you're saying the defense didn't give up 42?

so you are saying we shouldn't have scored more than that?

[Slacks 6819]

Just now, po elvis said:

so you are saying we shouldn't have scored more than that?

I'm saying we shouldn't have had to.

[po elvis 2070]

3 minutes ago, Snacks said:

I'm saying we shouldn't have had to.

but we did have to. in this type of game, which you know its going to be, you can't afford to miss your easy opportunities, especially when it because of stupid coaching decisions.

i could tell you before the plays not to run sideways.

[taybo20 2825]

38 minutes ago, Snacks said:

So, you're saying the defense didn't give up 42?

 

41 should be enough. Our defense cannot stop the run for dick, and I believe it is a schematic issue.  We are always a light box. I mean, PJ Locke is the enforcer at times. Good luck.  Gary Johnson is fast, but light. Wheeler is slow.  If we're going to run this, we need a faster Wheeler and a bigger Gary Johnson. We need a Malik and Shark type player (in terms of size / speed) to help stop the run. We need discipline at DE. We need a monster at NT - someone either unblockable (Ed Oliver) or big and fast enough to eat two OL (Poona was really good)

All night I saw the OL and a HB/TE double our guys, then reach the second level and seal. Hell, I was hoping WVU would pass more often, giving us a chance for an INC or a sack or INT.  But, alas, our safety play was terrible, because we were getting sucked up by run action.

We still need players, but we also need to optimize what we have. I'm not sure we're doing that on defense. 

 

Yes,  we're still feeling the effects of poor defensive recruiting and poor player development from a long time ago. We're better than we were, but we need stacks on stacks of middle of the field players on defense if we want to win. We can get DBs ready. We need LBs and DTs.

 

I’m interested in understanding what you mean by optimize the defense?

The only way I can see us doing that is teaching discipline and responsibility, which in effect flies in the face of what they have seemingly been taught. I’m not saying that’s wrong, I definitely think they need to be more displined and understand what they are responsible for. Our LBs specifically need to play smarter. Playing faster only, fucks us hard by also playing dumb. Too many plays yesterday and throughout the year show this. 

But at the same time, there were plays yesterday we had at least 5 true freshman on the field for defense, and at least 2 (Coburn and Ojomo) of those had not seen the field all year. It is what it is, and we are getting more LBs and DL players. But they need time in the program. We certainly don’t have the luxury of depth right now, and our starters weren’t world beaters to begin with.

[po elvis 2070]

16 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Oooohhh... You're still arguing about the 3rd quarter issues.

Well, I agree those sucked too.

I was stupidly still discussing the OT.

i think you have to kick the FG and get the 7 point lead. sure WV is probably going to score again, but it should only tie the game. biggest problem was deciding to take the TD with a full 2 1/2 minutes left instead of running the clock and freerolling with the FG attempt.

[The People’s Elbow 707]

13 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I’m not going to judge the call, but this teams lack of an under center QB sneak is awful. 

Agreed. Being at the game, WVU’s defense looked gassed and, IIRC, they had a lighter personnel package on the field. From my beer haze, I seem to recall maybe one or two WVU players who actually looked big enough to line up against our O Line. 

Why we couldn’t quickly line up and push them downhill at our will is infuriating. 

[Guest Lobo]

Hey Coach Herman!!!, Greg Davis would have gone for the endzone.  Let that sink in.  

Anyway, on to Lubbock.  I really thought we'd go 3-1 in this four game stretch (@OSU, WVU, @TTU, ISU).  Now I'm thinking 1-3.  Fucking CampingWorld Bowl?  Really?  

[taybo20 2825]

3 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Hey Coach Herman!!!, Greg Davis would have gone for the endzone.  Let that sink in.  

Anyway, on to Lubbock.  I really thought we'd go 3-1 in this four game stretch (@OSU, WVU, @TTU, ISU).  Now I'm thinking 1-3.  Fucking CampingWorld Bowl?  Really?  

Well not really. Probably Alamo bowl, but I’d rather go to Orlando then San Antonio. Just for the sake of my own travel

Edited November 4, 2018 by taybo20

[HtownHorn 14678]

17 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

When  it was 4th and less than a yard. Fucking stupid. They are not stopping us for less than a yard. Keep the chains moving and punch that in for a TD to give us an 11pt lead. But instead we kicked a FG. I don't get it. Grow some fucking balls.

He fucked up both calls on 4th down. He should have kicked the 1st one and gone for it on the 2nd one.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

in addition to kicking the field goal, he also screwed up by not going for two on the last touchdown, he should have known WVU was going to do that and pre-emptively gotten two so they could only tie us when they scored their touchdown

fucking Herman

[HtownHorn 14678]

13 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

he also screwed up by not going for two on the last touchdown, he should have known WVU was going to do that and pre-emptively gotten two so they could only tie us when they scored their touchdown

fucking Herman

This is some of the stupidest shit ever typed on this forum.

Edited November 4, 2018 by HtownHorn

[Goo Punch 4275]

17 hours ago, YChang said:

Weird... the perception when he was at UH to me was that... he would have gone for it no questions asked. 

which is what you need in this conference. you need balls. bob stoops, mike leach, dana holgerson, les miles, mike gundy, and so on; they all have big brass balls that they aren't afraid to flex. Mack Brown acquires more talent during his time here than anyone, but he only won the conference once because the one thing he never had more of than his opposition was balls. I always thought that Herman had the requisite set of balls to win in this league, but he sure didn't on that play. 

[Guest Lobo]

3 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

which is what you need in this conference. you need balls. bob stoops, mike leach, dana holgerson, les miles, mike gundy, and so on; they all have big brass balls that they aren't afraid to flex. Mack Brown acquires more talent during his time here than anyone, but he only won the conference once because the one thing he never had more of than his opposition was balls. I always thought that Herman had the requisite set of balls to win in this league, but he sure didn't on that play. 

Uh, actually in 30 years as a head coach, Mack Brown won TWO conference championships.  2005 and 2009.  Remarkably stellar collection of hardware.  But then Katy Agnor told me explicitly to change my signature on hornfans because conference championships were overrated and we were racking up 10-win seasons and mid-tier bowl wins.  She then reminded me that those three years at Tulane, it was an independent league, so it was impossible for him to win a conference title there.  And he wasn't a head coach in 1984 (between App. State and Tulane), so to take that year out as well.  So I was obviously too harsh in my analysis.  

[RockyMountainHighHorn 890]

Something that I don’t see being brought up, if it was so obvious they would go for two, which I thought they would, why didn’t we?

[Panama Red 63]

in addition to kicking the field goal, he also screwed up by not going for two on the last touchdown, he should have known WVU was going to do that and pre-emptively gotten two so they could only tie us when they scored their touchdown
fucking Herman

This is sarcasm, right?

Has to be...

[NeverMarryAStripper 21905]

At that point, in that game, the advantage of being up 11 far out weighs the disadvantage of being up 4 rather than 7. You go for it every time.

[gsoda3 3257]

This is some of the stupidest shit ever typed on this forum.

Your meter, turn it on

[Billy Pilgrim 1962]

What is the answer to getting a spot reviewed? We lost a TD to Tulsa with a bad spot, lost a first down on Sam’s 20 yard scramble to lose a first down. Why did they recheck the spot on our 4th down (and overturn it) but not on Sam’s scramble?

 

should we ask for a measurement “to see how far we need to go to get the first” to give the booth plenty of time to review? Just frustrating to get unfavorable spots with no review but the opponent got one that essentially won them the game.

[PittsburghTiger 6181]

19 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

When  it was 4th and less than a yard. Fucking stupid. They are not stopping us for less than a yard. Keep the chains moving and punch that in for a TD to give us an 11pt lead. But instead we kicked a FG. I don't get it. Grow some fucking balls.

I was wondering about that field goal. I was at a wedding and getting text messages about the game. That was the second field goal, right? With a 4th and one from the WVU 21. I said to the guys I was sitting with that they needed TDs and not FGs against WVU.

Sucks.

[Vic Mackey 47029]

Just now, PittsburghTiger said:

I was wondering about that field goal. I was at a wedding and getting text messages about the game. That was the second field goal, right? With a 4th and one from the WVU 21. I said to the guys I was sitting with that they needed TDs and not FGs against WVU.

Sucks.

That is what baffles me. Herman knew FGs won't beat WV. That is why he went for it on 4th and short inside WV's 10 yard line earlier in the half. But then didn't want to go for it on the same down and distance further away where the FG is not as big of a gimme? Line up and jam it down their throat and keep the drive and clock moving. 

[HtownHorn 14678]

1 hour ago, gsoda3 said:

2 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

This is some of the stupidest shit ever typed on this forum.

Your meter, turn it on

will do.

[HtownHorn 14678]

4 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

That is what baffles me. Herman knew FGs won't beat WV. That is why he went for it on 4th and short inside WV's 10 yard line earlier in the half. But then didn't want to go for it on the same down and distance further away where the FG is not as big of a gimme? Line up and jam it down their throat and keep the drive and clock moving. 

Yet if he had kicked the FG inside the 5, Texas would have won the game. You never chase points in the fucking 3Q, especially since WVU was keying on QB power, and the Texas interior OL was losing the LOS the entire game in the run game.

 

The next 4th down, you would be up 7 points already, which makes either going for it the death blow, or kicking it puts you up 2 scores.

Edited November 4, 2018 by HtownHorn

[Vic Mackey 47029]

Just now, HtownHorn said:

Yet if he had kicked the FG inside the 5, Texas would have won the game. You never chase points in the fucking 3Q.

You are assuming the game plays out exactly the same way had that happened. Sports does not work that way. Who knows if we are in the same exact position at the end had we kicked the FG. I am in favor of being hyper aggressive. Go for it on 4th down being a big one. I don't get why so many coaches are scared of 4th and very short. You are seeing more and more coaches go for it over the years, especially in the NFL. Like Pederson and McVay. 

I agreed with going for it on 4th down in the situation you mentioned. And we got it but then some weird fucking rule and the refs took it away.

I just don't get why he went for it in that situation but not the one at the end.

[HtownHorn 14678]

3 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

You are assuming the game plays out exactly the same way had that happened. Sports does not work that way. Who knows if we are in the same exact position at the end had we kicked the FG. I am in favor of being hyper aggressive. Go for it on 4th down being a big one. I don't get why so many coaches are scared of 4th and very short. You are seeing more and more coaches go for it over the years, especially in the NFL. Like Pederson and McVay. 

I agreed with going for it on 4th down in the situation you mentioned. And we got it but then some weird fucking rule and the refs took it away.

I just don't get why he went for it in that situation but not the one at the end.

He wanted the TD lead without giving WVU any momentum, especially considering QB power was not working in this game. The real problem was Rodriguez killing the drive with a fucking holding penalty.

[Knoxtnhorn 5975]

Question as I was a little drinked at the time....

Was the 4th down review already in process when Beuchele fumblefucked his way back to the bench to get his helmet, or did this extra 15 seconds or so give the refs time to think about a review?  I can't recall.