"icing" the kicker

[ButtFumble 5180]

that shit is stupid especially on a kick that is a longer kick and the kicker is feeling rushed

those 3 points that WVU got from being able to re-kick that long kick to end the first half really ended up being costly

that shit was not totally what cost Texas the game, but things sure would have been different without those 3 points and WVU would have had to play a bit different game in the second half especially late in the second half

[Greg Davis Apologist 213]

Well coached teams will always snap it after the timeout and get that "practice kick" in before they have to do it for real.

[hookem48 4700]

how much did having whistles blowing screw the kicker up on the first kick? no one knows and only scoring 3 points on two possessions inside their ten makes this seem silly to bitch about.

[EastTexan 662]

5 minutes ago, ButtFumble said:

that shit is stupid especially on a kick that is a longer kick and the kicker is feeling rushed

those 3 points that WVU got from being able to re-kick that long kick to end the first half really ended up being costly

that shit was not totally what cost Texas the game, but things sure would have been different without those 3 points and WVU would have had to play a bit different game in the second half especially late in the second half

Icing the kicker is total bs. If you are going to call time out, call it way before they snap the ball.

[Hank Chinaski 6315]

This is a huge pet peeve of mine. I've never understood the logic.

Why would anyone think that a kicker is less likely to make a second attempt than the first (by calling TO right before the first)? Just, why? It seems so arbitrary and dumb. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Hank Chinaski

[Bigbend1812 12927]

Did not have a problem with it.    I would have used the other two and made him kick it 4x. 

[Yesh 927]

Icing the kicker is fine, but you do it before he is set, so he can't get a practice kick in.

[Born Burnt 6178]

Totally agree. Stupid voodoo superstitious practice that allows kickers to re-adjust their aim and touch.

Interesting bit from ESPN:

FG Pct by Distance, Since 2001
10 Seconds or Less in 4th Qtr

With 10 seconds or less remaining in the 4th quarter, kickers who are not iced have made 70.2 percent of field goals since 2001.

When a timeout is called immediately before the try, they made 83.0 percent of attempts. That increase of 12.8 percentage points means recent attempts to ice a kicker at the end of a game actually increased the kicker’s chances of success by 18.2 percent.

Breaking those numbers down by distance shows that icing is particularly ineffective on long field goals. Field goals are made a higher rate following a timeout at all increments, but kickers more than double their accuracy on tries of 50 or more yards, hitting 77.8 percent after a timeout, compared to 37.5 percent otherwise.

Something coaches should think about as they sidle up to the official, hands poised to call timeout in an end-game situation.

[Mo Horn 8849]

Imo it's a dumb thing to do. Either the kicker is going to make it or he isn't. Calling a time out doesn't do anything other than cause second guessing. It didn't lose the game for us yesterday and it didn't win it for them. Just quit. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

Kicker icing did inspire one of the greatest fan meltdown videos of all time.

 

[taybo20 2877]

4 minutes ago, Bigbend1812 said:

Did not have a problem with it.    I would have used the other two and made him kick it 4x. 

If you are gonna call TO the first time, you should use the rest of them.

I am on the side of not calling it, unless the kicking team has already called one to set up FG. If it is a 4th down and the play clock is running, make them execute under that pressure. Don’t let them relax and setup.

[Hank Chinaski 6315]

9 minutes ago, Bigbend1812 said:

Did not have a problem with it.    I would have used the other two and made him kick it 4x. 

Why? If a kicker makes 75% from a given distance, he'll make it 3 out of 4 times, on average. Out of any 4 tries, it is impossible to predict which one he'll miss. Essentially, calling timeout before the first one is assuming he's less likely to make attempt #2 than attempt #1; there is no reason to make this assumption, or "bet" if you prefer to call it that. It seems more like superstition than anything. 

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Hank Chinaski

[Bigbend1812 12927]

4 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Why? If a kicker makes 75% from a given distance, he'll make it 3 out of 4 times, on average. Out of any 4 tries, it is impossible to predict which one he'll miss. Essentially, calling timeout before the first one is assuming he's less likely to make attempt #2 than attempt #1; there is no reason to make this assumption, or "bet" if you prefer to call it that. 

 

Why not?  You already called one.  Just go ahead and call the other 2.   Maybe call the 2nd before he snap is off and he doesn’t kick it.   Plus it’s very dickish and right up Tom’s alley. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Bigbend1812
Or maybe have everyone just open their Pepsi’s at the same time.

[Hank Chinaski 6315]

Just now, Bigbend1812 said:

Why not?  You already called one.  Just go ahead and call the other 2.   Maybe call the 2nd before he snap is off and he doesn’t kick it.   Plus it’s very dickish and right up Tom’s alley. 

Fair enough; I just wouldn't bother calling one in the first place, because it serves no purpose. 

[dcar00 14224]

2 minutes ago, taybo20 said:

If you are gonna call TO the first time, you should use the rest of them.

I am on the side of not calling it, unless the kicking team has already called one to set up FG. If it is a 4th down and the play clock is running, make them execute under that pressure. Don’t let them relax and setup.

I'm not in favor of it at all but especially at the end of the first half.  there really isn't that much pressure.

[Bigbend1812 12927]

1 minute ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Fair enough; I just wouldn't bother calling one in the first place, because it serves no purpose. 

I hear ya.   I’m just saying go all in if you’re gonna do it. 

[taybo20 2877]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

I'm not in favor of it at all but especially at the end of the first half.  there really isn't that much pressure.

The pressure I’m talking about is making the full substitution and running to the far hash, setting up and kicking a long FG. Calling timeout makes the easier, not harder

[dcar00 14224]

1 minute ago, taybo20 said:

The pressure I’m talking about is making the full substitution and running to the far hash, setting up and kicking a long FG. Calling timeout makes the easier, not harder

I agree. I'm just saying the pressure doesn't build on an end of half kick at all. it might build a little on end of game.

[pops 6994]

5 minutes ago, taybo20 said:

The pressure I’m talking about is making the full substitution and running to the far hash, setting up and kicking a long FG. Calling timeout makes the easier, not harder

1234

Makes no fucking sense to give a kicker a holder and a snapper more time to prepare. 

[po elvis 2073]

like i said on other thread, call the timeout before the kicker has chance for a free practice kick. the practice kick is a big edge for kicker.

[immortal13 4059]

It's fucking stupid, period. It is one of several bad coaching decisions that c9st us the game.  

[Goo Punch 4275]

kickers expect to get iced nowadays, so the best way to ice them is to not ice them at all.

what i really didn't like was our decision to kick a fg on 4th and a foot from the WVU 10 yard line with ~2:30 left. iirc we got the ball with about 7:30 left, up 4. we've driven down the field and eaten up 5 minutes by pounding the rock and wearing down their defense, and on 4th and a foot with a chance to go up 11 and effectively end the game we call for the fg. not too long after that Holgerson decided to go for 2.5 yards to win the game, and in fact had multiple plays ready to be drawn up to easily get it done. if there was one call i don't understand it was that fg. gain one freaking foot against a worn out d line and at worst we burn more clock and make wvu use their remaining to's. instead we stay ahead by one score and end up losing. i really didn't like that call.

[Sejjr 3246]

"Icing" the kicker is one of the dumber things that coaches do. It rarely works, and waiting until the moment before the ball is snapped is even dumber. It's like the coaches think they are using "strategy" when in reality, all they are doing is letting a kicker get a practice shot and a mulligan, which is a huge advantage for a kicker. It always reminds me of the saying in golf after you hit a shitty shot and take your much better mulligan shot, "that second guy is good." 

I guess Tom Herman doesn't have the icing percentages page in his fucking binder.

[NBMisha 224]

What you are saying is you don't like our preparation, for these situations, vs theirs.  I have to agree.  

[po elvis 2073]

19 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

kickers expect to get iced nowadays, so the best way to ice them is to not ice them at all.

what i really didn't like was our decision to kick a fg on 4th and a foot from the WVU 10 yard line with ~2:30 left. iirc we got the ball with about 7:30 left, up 4. we've driven down the field and eaten up 5 minutes by pounding the rock and wearing down their defense, and on 4th and a foot with a chance to go up 11 and effectively end the game we call for the fg. not too long after that Holgerson decided to go for 2.5 yards to win the game, and in fact had multiple plays ready to be drawn up to easily get it done. if there was one call i don't understand it was that fg. gain one freaking foot against a worn out d line and at worst we burn more clock and make wvu use their remaining to's. instead we stay ahead by one score and end up losing. i really didn't like that call.

you are off. there was way more than 2:30 left. we kicked the FG. they went down and scored tying TD. then we went down and scored TD. Then they went down and scored TD.

[Goo Punch 4275]

1 minute ago, po elvis said:

you are off. there was way more than 2:30 left. we kicked the FG. they went down and scored tying TD. then we went down and scored TD. Then they went down and scored TD.

ah that's right, that was the possession before. i still think we should have tried for it with the way we had been running it down their throats. going up 11 there would have been huge. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Goo Punch

[wood 11226]

1 hour ago, EastTexan said:

Icing the kicker is total bs. If you are going to call time out, call it way before they snap the ball.

Yeah I've always hated this shit no matter who does it. Calling the TO this way is a total bitch move & makes the program look bad, even when it does work, imho.

[JBJ 3655]

Knowing how you actually want the ball to fly is 75% of the kick.  Freezing a kicker is basically giving him a second look to line up a tee shot.

[MrPhlegm 3413]

Icing the kicker is a Jeff Fisher move and it makes me

[NeverMarryAStripper 21907]

I think it’s stupid to ice the kicker. But, if you’re going to do it why do it so he gets a practice kick? In a game like this one where it looks like the last team to score is going to win why waste a tine out at all?

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, wood said:

Yeah I've always hated this shit no matter who does it. Calling the TO this way is a total bitch move & makes the program look bad, even when it does work, imho.

the one on WVU's 2PAT was horseshit too.

It's the 'flopping' of football coaching.

[Helobious 9455]

1 hour ago, Bigbend1812 said:

I hear ya.   I’m just saying go all in if you’re gonna do it. 

If you use all three timeouts, after the last one the kicker knows "ok there's for sure no more timeouts coming". If you still have 1 or 2 TO's, there's the thought in the kickers head of "maybe they're about to call a TO". It's always a dumb decision to use all timeouts trying to ice the kicker. 

[Herpa Derpa 6126]

Two-bit move from a two-bit genius.

[hpslugga 4062]

2 hours ago, Bigbend1812 said:

Did not have a problem with it.    I would have used the other two and made him kick it 4x. 

Why?

1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

kickers expect to get iced nowadays, so the best way to ice them is to not ice them at all.

This is the correct answer, and the more timeouts you have, the more time the kicker expects to elapse until he kicks the ball. No big deal either way when it's one timeout left, but 3? If I were a HC and had all 3 TO's and that critical FG came up, I'd stand next to the ref and not call the TO. When you do that, he's really expecting you to do it and he's not expecting to actually kick anytime soon.

Edited November 4, 2018 by hpslugga

[Hamttx 419]

6 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

This is a huge pet peeve of mine. I've never understood the logic.

Why would anyone think that a kicker is less likely to make a second attempt than the first (by calling TO right before the first)? Just, why? It seems so arbitrary and dumb. 

You apparently have never went double or nothing on a all carry 185 yard par 3 into an island green. Making a clean second swing is pretty fucking hard to pull off, and the guy who does it deserves the cash.

[taybo20 2877]

1 minute ago, Hamttx said:

You apparently have never went double or nothing on a all carry 185 yard par 3 into an island green. Making a clean second swing is pretty fucking hard to pull off, and the guy who does it deserves the cash.

Me personally, I’m more likely to shank the first and put it with in 10 feet for my bogey on the second

[Tired of Lurking 637]

5 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

kickers expect to get iced nowadays, so the best way to ice them is to not ice them at all.

what i really didn't like was our decision to kick a fg on 4th and a foot from the WVU 10 yard line with ~2:30 left. iirc we got the ball with about 7:30 left, up 4. we've driven down the field and eaten up 5 minutes by pounding the rock and wearing down their defense, and on 4th and a foot with a chance to go up 11 and effectively end the game we call for the fg. not too long after that Holgerson decided to go for 2.5 yards to win the game, and in fact had multiple plays ready to be drawn up to easily get it done. if there was one call i don't understand it was that fg. gain one freaking foot against a worn out d line and at worst we burn more clock and make wvu use their remaining to's. instead we stay ahead by one score and end up losing. i really didn't like that call.

Totally agree. That was the only real time I didn't understand the coaching decision. I also want to know what the fuck the D-Lineman were doing on the Grier's final touchdown strike. Two of them were standing up at the snap, after already switching sides and getting in formation. If they were that confused, they should have called a timeout and lined up correctly.

The icing doesn't bother me. Every coach does it. Statistics be damned.

We also got royally screwed on Sam's helmet getting ripped off. That cost us points.

The icing, or not icing, should have been irrelevant.

[Disco Strangler 1878]

Broncos just “iced” Texans kicker on the miss.  Then he made the rekick

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Just now, Disco Strangler said:

Broncos just “iced” Texans kicker on the miss.  Then he made the rekick

I’m glad one of my teams benefitted 

[NeverMarryAStripper 21907]

If we had all three timeouts after they scored the conversion there is at least some chance of getting into range for a last ditch field goal try. Time outs, especially in a shoot out, are valuable and wasting them is stupid.

[ButtFumble 5180]

3 minutes ago, Disco Strangler said:

Broncos just “iced” Texans kicker on the miss.  Then he made the rekick

yea classic

[Disco Strangler 1878]

In hindsight, we wasted those TOs, but at the time, our true freshman DB was mismatched on WV’s best receiver.  From my seat, each TO was a bullet dodged - and then No 7 jogged into the end zone. 

[Irish Wrist Watch 1374]

7 hours ago, hookem48 said:

how much did having whistles blowing screw the kicker up on the first kick? no one knows and only scoring 3 points on two possessions inside their ten makes this seem silly to bitch about.

Good points. Going wide on what I guess must have been second and goal at the one was a stupid decision. Seems Sam ought to be experience enough now to audible out of a play like that after viewing the D's alignment.

[Irish Wrist Watch 1374]

36 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

If we had all three timeouts after they scored the conversion there is at least some chance of getting into range for a last ditch field goal try. Time outs, especially in a shoot out, are valuable and wasting them is stupid.

More rookie mistakes from a guy who has been a head coach for what, four years?

[Hank Chinaski 6315]

53 minutes ago, Hamttx said:

You apparently have never went double or nothing on a all carry 185 yard par 3 into an island green. Making a clean second swing is pretty fucking hard to pull off, and the guy who does it deserves the cash.

I'm not a bowler. 

[Dbeasy 15067]

I am 100% sure that icing the kicker is the exact opposite of what any coach should be doing. The statistics prove it, common sense proves it, and human nature proves it.

When a kicker is sitting on the sideline stewing about having to make a kick, and then has to run out and go quickly, by definition that is the most pressure filled moment that causes errors. A time out gives them time to regroup and focus, or even take a practice kick if the timeout is called late enough. I DEMAND WE STOP DOING THIS.

[hookem48 4700]

56 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

If we had all three timeouts after they scored the conversion there is at least some chance of getting into range for a last ditch field goal try. Time outs, especially in a shoot out, are valuable and wasting them is stupid.

you know how I know you didn't watch the game?

[hookem48 4700]

24 minutes ago, Irish Wrist Watch said:

More rookie mistakes from a guy who has been a head coach for what, four years?

the icing the kicker was the first half dumbass

[NeverMarryAStripper 21907]

you know how I know you didn't watch the game?

Just because I’m old and get confused doesn’t mean I don’t watch and It doesn’t mean that icing the kicker isn’t useless and stupid. We could also have used that timeout he used on the two point conversion since it obviously didn’t help to change up our defense. 

 

[MrPhlegm 3413]

I'm not a bowler.