The play before Sam "didn't get" the first down

[Yesh 963]

If it takes 5 minutes to review, it is not indisputable.

[crimsonlonghorn 2313]

10 minutes ago, Yesh said:

If it takes 5 minutes to review, it is not indisputable.

This is a common refrain and it's the correct one.

Set a time limit on reviews and if you need more time, then the replay isn't aiding anything and you must go with the guys on the field. 

[Telegraph_it 3386]

Damn. These calls were worse than I realized. WTF. 

[VinyVango 708]

I'm not sure of the specific set-up, but I can see how it would difficult for the field level coaches to see that a spot was off by 2 yards.  With $10k lockers for each player, I would think coach up in the pressbox would have access to a few screens with replays and scream at Hermann on the headset to challenge the spot or slow the quick pace or call a timeout.

Regardless, there is way too much arbitrary in how and when the refs decide to review a play and how they apply the indisputable standard.  Getting the ball spot right (absent a pile at the goal line) should be one of the easier things to get right.

very frustrating … this one is up there from a ref standpoint with the OSU game where the ref confronted / bumped / baited Strong and penalized him for reacting. 

[Zavala 1384]

46 minutes ago, Yesh said:

If it takes 5 minutes to review, it is not indisputable.

Clearly you haven't watched enough poop12 football

 

[Zavala 1384]

8 minutes ago, VinyVango said:

I'm not sure of the specific set-up, but I can see how it would difficult for the field level coaches to see that a spot was off by 2 yards.  With $10k lockers for each player, I would think coach up in the pressbox would have access to a few screens with replays and scream at Hermann on the headset to challenge the spot or slow the quick pace or call a timeout.

Regardless, there is way too much arbitrary in how and when the refs decide to review a play and how they apply the indisputable standard.  Getting the ball spot right (absent a pile at the goal line) should be one of the easier things to get right.

very frustrating … this one is up there from a ref standpoint with the OSU game where the ref confronted / bumped / baited Strong and penalized him for reacting. 

Go back and watch the bull shit that went on in the 2018 OSU game. This conference sucks shit through a straw. They get away with being "incompetent" by calling some insane shit both ways, but when you add up all the big plays taken away from Texas, then the zero holding penalties called against opposing offense, and look at how generally every review or ref huddle fucks us... It's pretty clear. You have a bunch of needle dicks from small towns that hate Texas. These fuckers are all from shit holes like Lubbock. 

Also, you can go watch shit conferences like the AAC or Pac 12, and even their officials don't make the games last 4+ hours, and don't constantly get calls wrong, spots wrong, video replay wrong... Haven't seen a single "defensive holding" on a run play against a linemen anywhere except the last two Texas games. Two were in our favor, but phantom calls shouldn't exist at all. Joel Klatt saying this was the most poorly officiated game he's ever broadcasted is hilarious.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Zavala

[NeverMarryAStripper 22330]

2 hours ago, Hamttx said:

Sam losing his helmet gave the ref’s pretty much Carte Blanche to spot it along a wide area. If what the announcers claimed is true (fuck it, I ain’t looking it up) that the play is dead when a player loses his helmet. They could pretty much put it anywhere they fucking wanted to. And if you can stomach to watch it again. Pay attention to when the two line judges converge at the mark, they are about a yard apart in their opinion as to the proper spot. Had they gone with the other guy it would have been a conversion.

From the camera angles we were shown there was no way to determine exactly when Sam’s helmet actually came off. So it came down to where those to ref’s met at center.

ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after
touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds;
or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped.
When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).
b. When any part of the ball carrier’s body, except his hand or foot, touches
the ground or when the ball carrier is tackled or otherwise falls and loses
possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his
FR-58 Rule 4 / Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Out of Bounds
body, except his hand or foot [Exception: The ball remains alive when
an offensive player has simulated a kick or at the snap is in position to
kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked,
passed or advanced by rule] (A.R. 4-1-3-I).
c. When a touchdown, touchback, safety, field goal or successful try occurs;
or when a free kick or a scrimmage kick that is untouched by Team B
beyond the neutral zone touches the ground in Team B’s end zone (Rules
6-1-7-a, 6-3-9, and A.R. 6-3-9-I).
d. When, during a try, a dead-ball rule applies (Rule 8-3-2-d-5).
e. When a player of the kicking team catches or recovers any free kick or a
scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone.
f. When a free kick, scrimmage kick or any other loose ball comes to rest
and no player attempts to secure it.
g. When a scrimmage kick or a free kick is caught or recovered by any player
after a valid or invalid fair-catch signal; or when an invalid fair-catch
signal is made after a catch or recovery by Team B (Rules 2-8-1 through
3).
h. When there is a return kick or a scrimmage kick is made beyond the
neutral zone.
i. When a forward pass is ruled incomplete.
j. When, before a change of team possession on fourth down or a try, a
Team A fumble is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the
fumbler (Rules 7-2-2-a and -b and 8-3-2-d-5).
k. When a live ball not in player possession touches anything inbounds
other than a player, a player’s equipment, an official, an official’s equipment
or the ground (inadvertent-whistle provisions apply).
l. When there is a simultaneous catch or recovery of a live ball.
m. When the ball becomes illegal while in play (inadvertent-whistle
provisions apply).
n. When a live ball comes into possession of an official (inadvertent-whistle
provisions apply).
o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.
p. When an airborne pass receiver of either team is held so that he is
prevented from immediately returning to the ground (A.R. 7-3-6-III).
q. When a ball carrier’s helmet comes completely off.
r. When a ball carrier obviously begins a feet-first slide. (A.R. 4-1-3-III)
 

[gecko 1104]

17 hours ago, texasstrong12 said:

https://gifs.com/gif/ncaaf-2018-11-03-west-virginia-at-texas-720p60-l5ZKlg

This play should have also been reviewed. The angle isn't great and I'm still not sure if Duvernay got in but it's close. We ended up kicking a FG on this drive. I didn't even notice this in real time but Duvernay extends and no clue how the ref one foot away doesn't even call for a review on a scoring play. 

From my seats in 103, row 5 I had a precise angle on that play.  We all knew it was a TD, gif confirms it.  The only person with a better angle was the idiot ref.  Texas screwed that up and went into a hurry up, then Sam brain farted....oh well....

Edited November 6, 2018 by gecko

[chase25 2048]

16 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after
touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds;
or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped.
When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).
b. When any part of the ball carrier’s body, except his hand or foot, touches
the ground or when the ball carrier is tackled or otherwise falls and loses
possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his
FR-58 Rule 4 / Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Out of Bounds
body, except his hand or foot [Exception: The ball remains alive when
an offensive player has simulated a kick or at the snap is in position to
kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked,
passed or advanced by rule] (A.R. 4-1-3-I).
c. When a touchdown, touchback, safety, field goal or successful try occurs;
or when a free kick or a scrimmage kick that is untouched by Team B
beyond the neutral zone touches the ground in Team B’s end zone (Rules
6-1-7-a, 6-3-9, and A.R. 6-3-9-I).
d. When, during a try, a dead-ball rule applies (Rule 8-3-2-d-5).
e. When a player of the kicking team catches or recovers any free kick or a
scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone.
f. When a free kick, scrimmage kick or any other loose ball comes to rest
and no player attempts to secure it.
g. When a scrimmage kick or a free kick is caught or recovered by any player
after a valid or invalid fair-catch signal; or when an invalid fair-catch
signal is made after a catch or recovery by Team B (Rules 2-8-1 through
3).
h. When there is a return kick or a scrimmage kick is made beyond the
neutral zone.
i. When a forward pass is ruled incomplete.
j. When, before a change of team possession on fourth down or a try, a
Team A fumble is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the
fumbler (Rules 7-2-2-a and -b and 8-3-2-d-5).
k. When a live ball not in player possession touches anything inbounds
other than a player, a player’s equipment, an official, an official’s equipment
or the ground (inadvertent-whistle provisions apply).
l. When there is a simultaneous catch or recovery of a live ball.
m. When the ball becomes illegal while in play (inadvertent-whistle
provisions apply).
n. When a live ball comes into possession of an official (inadvertent-whistle
provisions apply).
o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.
p. When an airborne pass receiver of either team is held so that he is
prevented from immediately returning to the ground (A.R. 7-3-6-III).
q. When a ball carrier’s helmet comes completely off.
r. When a ball carrier obviously begins a feet-first slide. (A.R. 4-1-3-III)
 

"So Bob, before we make this call, are you absolutely sure Chapter 11, section A3, subsection B2, rule B5-A1 applies in this situation?" Game has become so f'ing complicated for no reason whatsoever.

[Nueces River Rat 5800]

18 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
a. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after
touching the uprights or crossbar; when a ball carrier is out of bounds;
or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped.
When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II).
b. When any part of the ball carrier’s body, except his hand or foot, touches
the ground or when the ball carrier is tackled or otherwise falls and loses
possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his
FR-58 Rule 4 / Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Out of Bounds
body, except his hand or foot [Exception: The ball remains alive when
an offensive player has simulated a kick or at the snap is in position to
kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked,
passed or advanced by rule] (A.R. 4-1-3-I).
c. When a touchdown, touchback, safety, field goal or successful try occurs;
or when a free kick or a scrimmage kick that is untouched by Team B
beyond the neutral zone touches the ground in Team B’s end zone (Rules
6-1-7-a, 6-3-9, and A.R. 6-3-9-I).
d. When, during a try, a dead-ball rule applies (Rule 8-3-2-d-5).
e. When a player of the kicking team catches or recovers any free kick or a
scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone.
f. When a free kick, scrimmage kick or any other loose ball comes to rest
and no player attempts to secure it.
g. When a scrimmage kick or a free kick is caught or recovered by any player
after a valid or invalid fair-catch signal; or when an invalid fair-catch
signal is made after a catch or recovery by Team B (Rules 2-8-1 through
3).
h. When there is a return kick or a scrimmage kick is made beyond the
neutral zone.
i. When a forward pass is ruled incomplete.
j. When, before a change of team possession on fourth down or a try, a
Team A fumble is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the
fumbler (Rules 7-2-2-a and -b and 8-3-2-d-5).
k. When a live ball not in player possession touches anything inbounds
other than a player, a player’s equipment, an official, an official’s equipment
or the ground (inadvertent-whistle provisions apply).
l. When there is a simultaneous catch or recovery of a live ball.
m. When the ball becomes illegal while in play (inadvertent-whistle
provisions apply).
n. When a live ball comes into possession of an official (inadvertent-whistle
provisions apply).
o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.
p. When an airborne pass receiver of either team is held so that he is
prevented from immediately returning to the ground (A.R. 7-3-6-III).
q. When a ball carrier’s helmet comes completely off.
r. When a ball carrier obviously begins a feet-first slide. (A.R. 4-1-3-III)
 

Understood, but it was F'ed up they spent so much damn time to determine exactly where the ball should be placed and with so much of the play was obscured, the replay booth should of said it was inconclusive.    Those -ucks in the booth are trying to micromanage shit just like the NFL and how is that doing for the NFL.  It royally sucks.

All I know is Tom better raise holy hell if that ever occurs to one of our opponents carrying the ball.   There better be a 15 minute meeting about it and the ball better be placed right on the spot the helmet came off.   

 

[Rockethorn1978 6206]

Tom needs to know WHEN a play is that close to fucking slow down and let them look at it or maybe a intern sit up in the booth and all he does is stare at the fucking tv and hit the batcave button where it shocks tom's neck or can automatically cut into the coaches feed and tell him to let it be reviewed or to challenge the spot. 

Seems like every time we didn't get anything reviewed is because tom went fucking tempo.

[DiceHands 349]

This was a situation that happened MULTIPLE times during the game.

The play before, we should have reviewed it, but instead we decide to RACE to the line and try and run a quick play.  

I dont get why we go down the field so methodically, taking our sweet time, looking to the sidelines for checks, etc.  Then when we get near the goal line, we panic and start rushing.  Its like we cum before we even get our dick wet.

Bottom line, review the god damn close plays, Tom.  You Fuck.

[Zavala 1384]

2 hours ago, DiceHands said:

This was a situation that happened MULTIPLE times during the game.

The play before, we should have reviewed it, but instead we decide to RACE to the line and try and run a quick play.  

I dont get why we go down the field so methodically, taking our sweet time, looking to the sidelines for checks, etc.  Then when we get near the goal line, we panic and start rushing.  Its like we cum before we even get our dick wet.

Bottom line, review the god damn close plays, Tom.  You Fuck.

Tom isn't the one choosing to fuck us by not reviewing close plays, thats the shit12 officiating crew. It shouldn't matter if we rush to the line or not, how about they get the fucking call right on the field for once? We rush up the field on a maybe call that goes our way and what do they do? They stop play and review it to fuck us.

Can't keep blaming the coaching staff for the shitty officiating screwing us two game in a row.

[Zavala 1384]

5 hours ago, Texas25 said:

"So Bob, before we make this call, are you absolutely sure Chapter 11, section A3, subsection B2, rule B5-A1 applies in this situation?" Game has become so f'ing complicated for no reason whatsoever.

Also, comes COMPLETELY off. 

What fucking angle shows him being down by helmet completely off before the line to gain?

Oh right, no angles showed that, they just gave us a shitty spot, stopped us to measure it, found out they didn't spot it shitty enough, then called in the ole 15 min replay to fuck us over. No explanation of where he was actually down at all, just they knew he was short - but how could they have known that? Does their little chickenshit iphone on the tripod have angles they weren't showing on TV?

[Nivek 17429]

Tom needs to know WHEN a play is that close to fucking slow down and let them look at it or maybe a intern sit up in the booth and all he does is stare at the fucking tv and hit the batcave button where it shocks tom's neck or can automatically cut into the coaches feed and tell him to let it be reviewed or to challenge the spot. 
Seems like every time we didn't get anything reviewed is because tom went fucking tempo.

Haha. Slowing down for a review? Haha

[Billy Pilgrim 2079]

1 hour ago, Zavala said:

Tom isn't the one choosing to fuck us by not reviewing close plays, thats the shit12 officiating crew. It shouldn't matter if we rush to the line or not, how about they get the fucking call right on the field for once? We rush up the field on a maybe call that goes our way and what do they do? They stop play and review it to fuck us.

Can't keep blaming the coaching staff for the shitty officiating screwing us two game in a row.

Wouldn’t hurt to ask for a measurement if it’s that close to give our booth time to look at the play and see if we want to actually challenge the spot.

[Rockethorn1978 6206]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Haha. Slowing down for a review? Haha

Yea if the refs aren’t gonna intervene fucking stand there and let them know you want it to be reviewed, especially if you see it was spotted two yards short. Tom can call for a review for a spot and the officials aren’t rushing to help us out.

[Zavala 1384]

2 hours ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

Yea if the refs aren’t gonna intervene fucking stand there and let them know you want it to be reviewed, especially if you see it was spotted two yards short. Tom can call for a review for a spot and the officials aren’t rushing to help us out.

Good way to get another delay of game.

[Zavala 1384]

3 hours ago, Billy Pilgrim said:

Wouldn’t hurt to ask for a measurement if it’s that close to give our booth time to look at the play and see if we want to actually challenge the spot.

Ya only get one challenge in CFB and you have to burn a timeout...

Edited November 7, 2018 by Zavala

[DiceHands 349]

6 hours ago, Zavala said:

Tom isn't the one choosing to fuck us by not reviewing close plays, thats the shit12 officiating crew. It shouldn't matter if we rush to the line or not, how about they get the fucking call right on the field for once? We rush up the field on a maybe call that goes our way and what do they do? They stop play and review it to fuck us.

Can't keep blaming the coaching staff for the shitty officiating screwing us two game in a row.

Give the booth a chance to take a second look.  Instead, we try and catch the defense off guard and run a quick play for a negative gain.  There is zero reason to rush to the line in that situation.  None.

[NBMisha 224]

4 hours ago, Zavala said:

Ya only get one challenge in CFB and you have to burn a timeout...

If the spot had been changed one iota, no timeout charged, and, I'm not sure if the challenge is retained.  Not sure about any of this, given how the rules change.

[scottsins 2047]

On 11/5/2018 at 4:09 PM, texasstrong12 said:

1) Here's the Boyd PI call on 3rd down. Maybe he hooks him but there's not much here. CJ deals with much more than this on a weekly basis. 

https://gifs.com/gif/ncaaf-2018-11-03-west-virginia-at-texas-720p60-wmoYqr

2) Here's the Roach horse collar on 3rd and 15. My understanding is you can't commit a horse collar on a QB inside the pocket but I'm no rules expert. Not sure what Roach can do here. 

https://gifs.com/gif/ncaaf-2018-11-03-west-virginia-at-texas-720p60-W7xg9E

3) Here's the Wilbon defensive holding with 2 angles. I have absolutely no clue what was called here. 

https://gifs.com/gif/ncaaf-2018-11-03-west-virginia-at-texas-720p60-wmoY6r

https://gifs.com/gif/ncaaf-2018-11-03-west-virginia-at-texas-720p60-D9XMKK

The horse collar rule you posted is correct.  The only caveat, which I’m not sure makes a difference here, is that there is no “pocket” once the ball leaves said pocket.

[Horndog 2318]

5 hours ago, scottsins said:

The horse collar rule you posted is correct.  The only caveat, which I’m not sure makes a difference here, is that there is no “pocket” once the ball leaves said pocket.

From the Rule: "This does not apply to a ball carrier, including a potential passer, who is inside the tackle box."

I think the explanation was that since Grier had already thrown the pass before he was grabbed, he was not a "ball carrier" nor a "potential" passer.  The refs apparently made a very literal interpretation of the Rule, meaning that if  the player being tackled does not actually have the ball the exception does not apply.  Not sayin' it's right, just sayin' that's what they did.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Horndog
explanation

[Horndog 2318]

The funny thing is, the Rule only applies to a "ball carrier."  

All players are prohibited from grabbing the inside back collar of the shoulder pads or jersey, the area, or the inside collar of the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, and immediately pulling the ball carrier down. 

Since Grier was not then a ball carrier, there is no horse collar.

[Horndog 2318]

Put this in the sour grapes category, but whatever.  Grier should have been called for taunting on the 2 point conversion.  Here is the Rule (9-2-1a):

"1. No player, substitute, coach or other person subject to the rules shall use abusive, threatening or obscene language or gestures, or engage in such acts that provoke ill will or are demeaning to an opponent, to game officials or to the image of the game, including but not limited to: (a) Pointing the finger(s), hand(s), arm(s) or ball at an opponent, or imitating the slashing of the throat. (b) Taunting, baiting or ridiculing an opponent verbally. (c) Inciting an opponent or spectators in any other way, such as simulating the firing of a weapon or placing a hand by the ear to request recognition. (d) Any delayed, excessive, prolonged or choreographed act by which a player (or players) attempts to focus attention upon himself (or themselves). (e) An unopposed ball carrier obviously altering stride as he approaches the opponent’s goal line or diving into the end zone. (f ) A player removing his helmet after the ball is dead and before he is in the team area (Exceptions: Team, media or injury timeouts; equipment adjustment; through play; between periods; and during a measurement for a first down). (g) Punching one’s own chest or crossing one’s arms in front of the chest while standing over a prone player. (h) Going into the stands to interact with spectators, or bowing at the waist after a good play. (i) Intentionally removing the helmet while the ball is alive. (j) Dead-ball contact fouls such as pushing, shoving, striking, etc. that occur clearly after the ball is dead and that are not part of the game action. (A.R. 9-2-1-X) (k) After the ball is dead, using forcible contact to push or pull an opponent off the pile. (A.R. 9-2-1-XI)"

Example from the official NCAA interpretation:

"Third and 15 at the B-20. Eligible A88 catches a pass at the B-18 and heads for the goal line. At the B-10 he goes into a “goose step” and continues this action as he crosses the goal line. RULING: Live-ball foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. Fifteen-yard penalty enforced at the spot of the foul, which is the B-10, and repeat third down. Third and 20 at the B-25."

 

And here is Grier as he runs into the end zone, obviously altering his stride at the 2 yard line and raising the ball over his head.  This should have been a 15 yard penalty, moving the ball back to the 17 yard line, meaning that WVa would have had to kick a 34 yard extra point to tie.