Where is the line?

[Bat Guano 359]

Now that the midterms are over and the Ds have the House, things are going to get rough. You think the first 2 years of the Trump presidency were bad? You ain’t seen nothing yet. After all, you gotta have a compelling story line for the upcoming seasons of the reality show, keep the ratings up. So you can be sure Trump will do some things that most people will find appalling – much worse than what he’s done before. And yet many people will still support him, just like they have after all the appalling things he’s already done. Even so, there should be a line for most people; there should be some principle, deep in the heart of even the most loyal and/or depraved Trump fan, that if it were violated, they would reluctantly part ways with the Orange One.

Now, if you are a Trump supporter, you should establish where that line is, before the roller coaster takes that first stomach-churning plunge. If you want to make data-driven decisions you establish what criteria will drive your decision beforehand and then stick to those criteria. Same goes for principles – decide what circumstances will violate your principles beforehand, and stick to it.

Are you as all-in as he thinks you are – i.e., he could shoot someone on 5^th Avenue and you’d still support him? Or do you think he’s done some stuff that’s maybe not so good, but the good – Supreme Court justices you like, maybe tax cuts and cutting regulations - still outweighs the bad? If you’re in the second category, what kind of thing would it take for you to drop him?

I was going to put firing Sessions on this list as a mild lead-in example, but he beat me to it. There will be worse to come. Here are some possible examples:

 

1.     Fire Robert Mueller

2.       Fire Rosenstein and meddle in/try to stop the Russia, etc. investigation

3.       Refuse to comply with lawful subpoenas from the Democratic House – for, e.g., his tax returns

4.       Refuse to comply with a Supreme Court ruling

5.       Piss tape – what if there really is one? What if it becomes public?

6.       Piss tape, part 2: What if Putin has been blackmailing him about the tape, or something else, and he really is a Russian puppet?

7.       Start a war

8.       Disband Congress

9.       Institute martial law

 

This is not an exhaustive list; I lack the imagination to predict some of what I am sure is coming. Feel free to add to it. Yes, I actually do think all of those things are possible, and much more. I think several of them are almost a certainty.

 

So where is your particular line? What would cause you to pull your support? Remember, no hedging later; you draw the line, and you stick to it.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Bat Guano

[Continental Op 3934]

There isn't one so it doesn't matter what I think

[Bat Guano 359]

A couple more:

-  He uses the N-word or another racial slur in public

-  It comes out that he's paid for abortions for his mistresses

 

[hobbes2702 13073]

None of it. They are all in 

[Francisco 2.0 32428]

1 minute ago, Bat Guano said:

A couple more:

-  He uses the N-word or another racial slur in public

-  It comes out that he's paid for abortions for his mistresses

 

And his fan club cheers him on.

[shnsajax 3591]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

None of it. They are all in 

Gay sex with Vicente Fox may do it. But not much else. 

[staboner 4987]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

None of it. They are all in 

this. there is no line. there are only sides

[Bama Chick 28596]

There’s no line. There’s no more Republican Party.

There’s only Trumpublicans and for them, there’s no bottom.

The truest thing Hillary Clinton ever uttered was calling them deplorable.

And when the power flips to the other side, fuck their belated, hollow calls for civility and decorum.

You reveled in “librul tears” - I cannot wait to see you drowning in your own.

[Your Mom 4852]

Every single thing on your list could happen and we will be just as likely to have Donald for the rest of this term... plus another. 

His base will never believe half of it and won't give a single fuck about the other half.  The Republicans who have aligned themselves with Trump have gone too far to turn back now.  They see their only choice is to power on rather than admit they fucked up.

[Bat Guano 359]

31 minutes ago, shnsajax said:

Gay sex with Vicente Fox may do it. But not much else. 

Only if Trump is the catcher, I assume.

[BrickHorn 18285]

32 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

None of it. They are all in 

This.  Trumpism is a cult.  He rules by fiat.  What he says is right and what is right is what he says.  By definition, he can do no wrong.  

Non-Trumpism Republicans have been had.  And they’ve been marginalized.  The party is Trump now.   

[Biff Tannen 45742]

49 minutes ago, Bat Guano said:

If you want to make data-driven decisions

And here's where your post lost every person it was aimed at.

[Bat Guano 359]

34 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

None of it. They are all in 

 

33 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

And his fan club cheers him on.

 

31 minutes ago, staboner said:

this. there is no line. there are only sides

 

8 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

There’s no line. There’s no more Republican Party.

There’s only Trumpublicans and for them, there’s no bottom.

The truest thing Hillary Clinton ever uttered was calling them deplorable.

And when the power flips to the other side, fuck their belated, hollow calls for civility and decorum.

You reveled in “librul tears” - I cannot wait to see you drowning in your own.

 

3 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

Every single thing on your list could happen and we will be just as likely to have Donald for the rest of this term... plus another. 

His base will never believe half of it and won't give a single fuck about the other half.  The Republicans who have aligned themselves with Trump have gone too far to turn back now.  They see their only choice is to power on rather than admit they fucked up.

That's what I'm afraid of. I was hoping otherwise. Fuck.

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

If you're missing a line, I'd start with Roger Stone or Scaramucci.

[F250 28818]

41 minutes ago, Bat Guano said:

A couple more:

-  He uses the N-word or another racial slur in public

-  It comes out that he's paid for abortions for his mistresses

 

[Guest]

I thought overreaction Monday was just a bit on sports radio after the Cowboys lose. 

[Bat Guano 359]

5 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I thought overreaction Monday was just a bit on sports radio after the Cowboys lose. 

What's the overreaction?

[Chrispy 132]

It’s a bit like pornography I suppose, I’ll know it when I see it. 

[Brisketexan 105337]

1 minute ago, Chrispy said:

It’s a bit like pornography I suppose, I’ll know it when I see it. 

And, to continue with that metaphor, Trumpkins like Chrispy could watch a remake of 2 girls 1 cup, with the addition of child rape and a snuff film aspect, and they'd defend it as art till their dying day.

As noted above, there is no line.  In a cult, there never is.

[SameSame 1705]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

None of it. They are all in 

This.  There is 100% no line, and I say that with all sincerity.  

Come up with any scenario you want, his base will make an excuse for it and point fingers at someone else.

[Chrispy 132]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And, to continue with that metaphor, Trumpkins like Chrispy could watch a remake of 2 girls 1 cup, with the addition of child rape and a snuff film aspect, and they'd defend it as art till their dying day.

As noted above, there is no line.  In a cult, there never is.

Is that the one where they eat their own feces? I chose not to watch it because, well, some things can not be unseen. 

Of course there’s a line in a cult; if they start passing around cups of Kool-Aid, head for the exits. 

[Bat Guano 359]

9 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

It’s a bit like pornography I suppose, I’ll know it when I see it. 

Seriously, none of those items do it for you? I thought a couple of them were ringers. You're OK with making America Putin's bitch?

[Jiggy-Z 3435]

[BrickHorn 18285]

4 minutes ago, SameSame said:

This.  There is 100% no line, and I say that with all sincerity.  

Come up with any scenario you want, his base will make an excuse for it and point fingers at someone else.

They don’t hide it.  They openly admit that this is the case.  Proudly, as if it’s a virtue to have no moral boundaries.

If you think I’m exaggerating, just go watch the clips of interviews with rally attendees. They full on brag that Trump could do or say anything and they’d fully support him no matter what.  

GOP politicians aren’t as honest about it, but their inaction reveals that they, too, lack any red lines.  

We cannot count on Republicans to self-police.  The ones still in the party are too far gone.  

[Brisketexan 105337]

7 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

 

Of course there’s a line in a cult; if they start passing around cups of Kool-Aid, head for the exits. 

The irony of this is really so pure.

[Chrispy 132]

6 minutes ago, Bat Guano said:

Seriously, none of those items do it for you? I thought a couple of them were ringers. You're OK with making America Putin's bitch?

I was under the impression a few of your scenarios were intentionally hyperbolic for comedic purposes.

A war? With whom and under what circumstances? 

Pee tapes? Yawn. 

Russian collusion? It’s about time the Democrats stop this charade and accept responsibility for Trump winning. 

[Bat Guano 359]

3 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

I was under the impression a few of your scenarios were intentionally hyperbolic for comedic purposes.

A war? With whom and under what circumstances? 

Pee tapes? Yawn. 

Russian collusion? It’s about time the Democrats stop this charade and accept responsibility for Trump winning. 

Nope. Dead serious. Wag-the-dog war with Iran, Syria, North Korea - take your pick, on some pretext or other. Would you rationalize it, accept whatever rationale Trump fabricates to feed you, or push back?

Piss tape, and Putin is blackmailing Trump. He wants sanctions lifted. Trump is going along to the best of his ability - this is not in dispute - and now we know the reason why. This is OK with you, or not?

[David Dennison 18946]

12 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

I was under the impression a few of your scenarios were intentionally hyperbolic for comedic purposes.

A war? With whom and under what circumstances? 

Pee tapes? Yawn. 

Russian collusion? It’s about time the Democrats stop this charade and accept responsibility for Trump winning. 

Robert Mueller is a Republican.

[JustBecause 112]

38 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

It’s a bit like pornography I suppose, I’ll know it when I see it. 

B.I.N.G.O

[TornACL 7722]

11 minutes ago, Bat Guano said:

Nope. Dead serious. Wag-the-dog war with Iran, Syria, North Korea - take your pick, on some pretext or other. Would you rationalize it, accept whatever rationale Trump fabricates to feed you, or push back?

Piss tape, and Putin is blackmailing Trump. He wants sanctions lifted. Trump is going along to the best of his ability - this is not in dispute - and now we know the reason why. This is OK with you, or not?

I've had this exact same discussion with friends who are kool aid drinkers, and their response is that Putin isn't so bad and we shouldn't have placed the sanctions to begin with, and maybe we should try to be nice to him because being mean didn't get us anywhere.

[Chrispy 132]

23 minutes ago, Bat Guano said:

Nope. Dead serious. Wag-the-dog war with Iran, Syria, North Korea - take your pick, on some pretext or other. Would you rationalize it, accept whatever rationale Trump fabricates to feed you, or push back?

Piss tape, and Putin is blackmailing Trump. He wants sanctions lifted. Trump is going along to the best of his ability - this is not in dispute - and now we know the reason why. This is OK with you, or not?

Like I said, it depends on the situation. A completely unprovoked war? Yes, I think I’ve learned my lesson from my support of the Iraq war.

The pee tapes I can’t take seriously. Excuse my brevity, but I’m going to take my family out to dinner and time is fairly limited. 

[Agent47 157]

For Cohen the line was prison. 

Like most criminals, Repubs find Jesus once faced with a long prison sentence.

Some day, all those right wing evangelicals will discover Christ. Some day.

[SameSame 1705]

Another example, a 100% fucking lie that there is video evidence to prove,  yet foxnews and the magas fall right in line.

Sarah Sanders is a complete piece of shit, same as Trump.

 

 

[used2b 249]

No line.

[Buzzrock 14941]

Trump once again has what he craves: a foil. He can spend the next two years concocting deals and when the House shoots them down he can point and say “Look, they won’t work with me.”

[Blotto 23575]

4 hours ago, Chrispy said:

 

Of course there’s a line in a cult; if they start passing around cups of Kool-Aid, head for the exits. 

The US got its cup of koolaid the day that ignorant piece of shit got the keys to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. All that's left now is the historical post mortem.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

18 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Trump once again has what he craves: a foil. He can spend the next two years concocting deals and when the House shoots them down he can point and say “Look, they won’t work with me.”

He’s already been saying that lie and all the rubes believed it then.

[Celery Man 20996]

Cohen could produce tapes of him dropping hard Rs tomorrow and nobody would give a shit, but it would be interesting if there were really credible audio/video recordings or e-mails where he discusses how stupid he thinks Christians are and what a scam it is.

[Mo Horn 8855]

Line? Pshaw. I've said it many times, no truer words were ever uttered than when he said he could shoot someone in the middle of Times Square and not lose voters. 

[TexArcher 38068]

Donald Trump could shit on Ronald Reagan's grave and "Conservatives" would still vote for him again.  

[Disco Missile 456]

I'm not an OG Trump supporter, but I wanted to peek the politics page today and this looked fun, so here's my go:

1.     Fire Robert Mueller - won't happen, because nothing against Trump personally or damaging to him directly is going to surface. Or he would have acted already. Or it would have been leaked.
2.     Fire Rosenstein and meddle in/try to stop the Russia, etc. investigation - Rosenstein maybe should be fired. But seriously, he's resisted this long.
3      Refuse to comply with lawful subpoenas from the Democratic House – for, e.g., his tax returns - Lots of presidents have defied subpoenas. Obama most recently. Depends on what it's about. Personal tax returns? Don't care. Turning over proof of skulduggery or corruption at an institutional level? Care very much.
4      Refuse to comply with a Supreme Court ruling - that would be a problem. Constitutional crises are bad. But several presidents have defied federal courts before. Not to pick on 44, but he did it a few times. So, it depends on the case and how badly it jams up the works.
5.     Piss tape – what if there really is one? What if it becomes public? - It would've happened already. But really, who cares. It's Donald Trump. He's been living the life for decades.
6.     Piss tape, part 2: What if Putin has been blackmailing him about the tape, or something else, and he really is a Russian puppet? - Giving Putin a shitload of credit for a mediocre leader of a second-rate country, but okay. Has it benefited the USA vis-a-vis cheap gas prices or Mid East policy or in any other tangible way? If not, screw him.
7.     Start a war - really? I mean, name a President that hasn't started a war. Trump is disarming North Korea and stomped ISIS into a hole, but if he wants to start a war he's got plenty of options.
8.     Disband Congress - Constitutional crisis. Lincoln did it to Maryland but I guess he had a pretty good excuse...but still people brush it aside like it was nothing.
9.     Institute martial law - This has got to be satire. As a vet, this is just hilarious. Maybe he could do it with someone else's military.

Honestly, I feel like this is an emotional post-election hangover for you. You're ascribing malevolent motives to people because you're angry.
So here are some definite absolute red lines that would make me vote Beto in 2020:
10. Raise taxes
11. 1-2% or lower annual GDP growth
12. stagnant wages, high unemployment
13. cause health care costs to go up for consumers, or enact single payer. Either one
14. cause utility costs to go up for consumers, or mandate expensive energy sources
15. otherwise impede my rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[softlynow 1828]

I think an executive order confiscating firearms from white people unless they smuggle a pregnant Honduran into the country and pay for her abortion would be problematic for him. That’s about it, though. 

[Bat Guano 359]

15 hours ago, Chrispy said:

Like I said, it depends on the situation. A completely unprovoked war? Yes, I think I’ve learned my lesson from my support of the Iraq war.

The pee tapes I can’t take seriously. Excuse my brevity, but I’m going to take my family out to dinner and time is fairly limited. 

So there is a line for you. Remember, no waffling later on, when the Pres starts beating the drums. I feel like that is part of the problem - lots of the kool-aid drinkers (not sure if you are one or not, since you say you have a line) have a willingness to believe Trump's lies over easily verifiable facts. Of course he encourages this with the 'fake news' nonsense, but even when he explains that he does it to discredit the press so that when bad things come out about him they won't be believed - see the Leslie Stahl interview from 60 minutes a couple of years ago - his followers choose to believe his alternate facts to the actual facts.

That was a problem with the Iraq war - there were plenty of us who questioned whether there was a justification for the war, both because of the facts on the ground - no WMDs - and the principle - preemptive wars are generally not justified. It was not difficult to find information counter to the Bush admin's claims of WMDs, but anybody bringing that up was shouted down and called a traitor. The same thing will happen the next time around, on steroids; people don't learn the lessons of the past, and there are many of them in the Trump camp no matter what idiocy he proposes.

 

[Bat Guano 359]

11 hours ago, Disco Missile said:

I'm not an OG Trump supporter, but I wanted to peek the politics page today and this looked fun, so here's my go:

1.     Fire Robert Mueller - won't happen, because nothing against Trump personally or damaging to him directly is going to surface. Or he would have acted already. Or it would have been leaked.
2.     Fire Rosenstein and meddle in/try to stop the Russia, etc. investigation - Rosenstein maybe should be fired. But seriously, he's resisted this long.
3      Refuse to comply with lawful subpoenas from the Democratic House – for, e.g., his tax returns - Lots of presidents have defied subpoenas. Obama most recently. Depends on what it's about. Personal tax returns? Don't care. Turning over proof of skulduggery or corruption at an institutional level? Care very much.
4      Refuse to comply with a Supreme Court ruling - that would be a problem. Constitutional crises are bad. But several presidents have defied federal courts before. Not to pick on 44, but he did it a few times. So, it depends on the case and how badly it jams up the works.
5.     Piss tape – what if there really is one? What if it becomes public? - It would've happened already. But really, who cares. It's Donald Trump. He's been living the life for decades.
6.     Piss tape, part 2: What if Putin has been blackmailing him about the tape, or something else, and he really is a Russian puppet? - Giving Putin a shitload of credit for a mediocre leader of a second-rate country, but okay. Has it benefited the USA vis-a-vis cheap gas prices or Mid East policy or in any other tangible way? If not, screw him.
7.     Start a war - really? I mean, name a President that hasn't started a war. Trump is disarming North Korea and stomped ISIS into a hole, but if he wants to start a war he's got plenty of options.
8.     Disband Congress - Constitutional crisis. Lincoln did it to Maryland but I guess he had a pretty good excuse...but still people brush it aside like it was nothing.
9.     Institute martial law - This has got to be satire. As a vet, this is just hilarious. Maybe he could do it with someone else's military.

Honestly, I feel like this is an emotional post-election hangover for you. You're ascribing malevolent motives to people because you're angry.
So here are some definite absolute red lines that would make me vote Beto in 2020:
10. Raise taxes
11. 1-2% or lower annual GDP growth
12. stagnant wages, high unemployment
13. cause health care costs to go up for consumers, or enact single payer. Either one
14. cause utility costs to go up for consumers, or mandate expensive energy sources
15. otherwise impede my rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

These are hypotheticals. Lots of people would have said the Sessions firing wouldn't happen, until yesterday. I'm asking for an answer IF THEY DO HAPPEN. And I happen to think that the first 4 items are absolutely 100 percent locks to happen. Are they a bridge too far for you?

Translating your answer to 7 - it sounds like a war is OK with you; that's not the line. Same with 8; noted. Martial law? If he disbands Congress, what's to stop him from the next step? Suppose I change it to 'suspend parts of the Constitution,' e.g., the First Amendment protections for the press; maybe he has Jim Acosta or the editorial board of the NYT arrested and thrown in the slammer. You still with the Pres in that case? Hypothetical, treat it as if it is happening.

[Bat Guano 359]

And no, this is not a post-election sour grapes thing; I've been thinking about it for a long time, and just waited until after the election to post because nobody would have paid attention to it before the election.

[Bat Guano 359]

11 hours ago, softlynow said:

I think an executive order confiscating firearms from white people unless they smuggle a pregnant Honduran into the country and pay for her abortion  anchor baby's birth  would be problematic for him. That’s about it, though. 

Fify. Abortion of a white baby would be a problem.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

18 hours ago, Bat Guano said:

Now that the midterms are over and the Ds have the House, things are going to get rough. You think the first 2 years of the Trump presidency were bad? You ain’t seen nothing yet. After all, you gotta have a compelling story line for the upcoming seasons of the reality show, keep the ratings up. So you can be sure Trump will do some things that most people will find appalling – much worse than what he’s done before. And yet many people will still support him, just like they have after all the appalling things he’s already done. Even so, there should be a line for most people; there should be some principle, deep in the heart of even the most loyal and/or depraved Trump fan, that if it were violated, they would reluctantly part ways with the Orange One.

Now, if you are a Trump supporter, you should establish where that line is, before the roller coaster takes that first stomach-churning plunge. If you want to make data-driven decisions you establish what criteria will drive your decision beforehand and then stick to those criteria. Same goes for principles – decide what circumstances will violate your principles beforehand, and stick to it.

Are you as all-in as he thinks you are – i.e., he could shoot someone on 5^th Avenue and you’d still support him? Or do you think he’s done some stuff that’s maybe not so good, but the good – Supreme Court justices you like, maybe tax cuts and cutting regulations - still outweighs the bad? If you’re in the second category, what kind of thing would it take for you to drop him?

I was going to put firing Sessions on this list as a mild lead-in example, but he beat me to it. There will be worse to come. Here are some possible examples:

 

1.     Fire Robert Mueller

2.       Fire Rosenstein and meddle in/try to stop the Russia, etc. investigation

3.       Refuse to comply with lawful subpoenas from the Democratic House – for, e.g., his tax returns

4.       Refuse to comply with a Supreme Court ruling

5.       Piss tape – what if there really is one? What if it becomes public?

6.       Piss tape, part 2: What if Putin has been blackmailing him about the tape, or something else, and he really is a Russian puppet?

7.       Start a war

8.       Disband Congress

9.       Institute martial law

 

This is not an exhaustive list; I lack the imagination to predict some of what I am sure is coming. Feel free to add to it. Yes, I actually do think all of those things are possible, and much more. I think several of them are almost a certainty.

 

So where is your particular line? What would cause you to pull your support? Remember, no hedging later; you draw the line, and you stick to it.

The correct term is martian law. 

[Goredho 17420]

18 hours ago, Bat Guano said:

Now that the midterms are over and the Ds have the House, things are going to get rough. You think the first 2 years of the Trump presidency were bad? You ain’t seen nothing yet. After all, you gotta have a compelling story line for the upcoming seasons of the reality show, keep the ratings up. So you can be sure Trump will do some things that most people will find appalling – much worse than what he’s done before. And yet many people will still support him, just like they have after all the appalling things he’s already done. Even so, there should be a line for most people; there should be some principle, deep in the heart of even the most loyal and/or depraved Trump fan, that if it were violated, they would reluctantly part ways with the Orange One.

Now, if you are a Trump supporter, you should establish where that line is, before the roller coaster takes that first stomach-churning plunge. If you want to make data-driven decisions you establish what criteria will drive your decision beforehand and then stick to those criteria. Same goes for principles – decide what circumstances will violate your principles beforehand, and stick to it.

Are you as all-in as he thinks you are – i.e., he could shoot someone on 5^th Avenue and you’d still support him? Or do you think he’s done some stuff that’s maybe not so good, but the good – Supreme Court justices you like, maybe tax cuts and cutting regulations - still outweighs the bad? If you’re in the second category, what kind of thing would it take for you to drop him?

I was going to put firing Sessions on this list as a mild lead-in example, but he beat me to it. There will be worse to come. Here are some possible examples:

 

1.     Fire Robert Mueller

2.       Fire Rosenstein and meddle in/try to stop the Russia, etc. investigation

3.       Refuse to comply with lawful subpoenas from the Democratic House – for, e.g., his tax returns

4.       Refuse to comply with a Supreme Court ruling

5.       Piss tape – what if there really is one? What if it becomes public?

6.       Piss tape, part 2: What if Putin has been blackmailing him about the tape, or something else, and he really is a Russian puppet?

7.       Start a war

8.       Disband Congress

9.       Institute martial law

 

This is not an exhaustive list; I lack the imagination to predict some of what I am sure is coming. Feel free to add to it. Yes, I actually do think all of those things are possible, and much more. I think several of them are almost a certainty.

 

So where is your particular line? What would cause you to pull your support? Remember, no hedging later; you draw the line, and you stick to it.

We are beyond the pale.  There is no line for 35% of Americans.  For any event you call out above, a justification or conspiratorial explanation would be served up from the President, Rush, Fox news or some other supporter of this Trumpist movement.  Those Americans will accept that information as truth and the action as necessary without hesitation or question.  This will continue until the rest of America stands up, quits being Neville Chamberlain to Trump's Hitler, and soundly kicks their ass at the ballot box.

Those 35% that truly believe America is being made great again will vote at nearly 100% in 2020.  The dems have to get 2/3rd of the remaining 65% of Americans out to vote.  That's the only way this stops.  Only then will the political troglodytes on the right slink back to their den and America begin to look normal again.

I don't think the current crop of Democrat leaders have that in them.  I hope they do, but I'm not at all confident.  One thing I am certain will happen within the next 6-12 years is this: either the radically-right Republican party of Trump or the moderate-left Democrat party of Bill Clinton will be gone.  One or the other will be faced with having to rise from the ashes of its former self.  If its the GOP, they will return to their roots of fiscal conservatism and personal independence.  If its the Democrats, their reformation will be as radically left as the current GOP is radically right.  If Trumpism prevails, I have no clue what America looks like when we are left with only crazy righties and crazy lefties fighting over the steering wheel.  Its a bit of an event horizon.

[Chrispy 132]

5 minutes ago, Bat Guano said:

So there is a line for you. Remember, no waffling later on, when the Pres starts beating the drums. I feel like that is part of the problem - lots of the kool-aid drinkers (not sure if you are one or not, since you say you have a line) have a willingness to believe Trump's lies over easily verifiable facts. Of course he encourages this with the 'fake news' nonsense, but even when he explains that he does it to discredit the press so that when bad things come out about him they won't be believed - see the Leslie Stahl interview from 60 minutes a couple of years ago - his followers choose to believe his alternate facts to the actual facts.

That was a problem with the Iraq war - there were plenty of us who questioned whether there was a justification for the war, both because of the facts on the ground - no WMDs - and the principle - preemptive wars are generally not justified. It was not difficult to find information counter to the Bush admin's claims of WMDs, but anybody bringing that up was shouted down and called a traitor. The same thing will happen the next time around, on steroids; people don't learn the lessons of the past, and there are many of them in the Trump camp no matter what idiocy he proposes.

 

I believe this board overestimates the amount of people that are lobotomized sycophants. The conservatives in my circle can easily disregard much of Trump’s rhetoric, which is admittedly wearing thin on all of us, and focus on his actions. The media should take my unsolicited advice and keep their disdain of Trump voters to a minimum, because as deplorable as we may seem, we’re also very perceptive. When used correctly, the media is a very necessary tool in protecting its citizenry. But once it starts surreptitiously pushing values, it has become something entirely else and worthy of distrust. But again, I would need to see the events leading up to this hypothetical war before determining what line has or hasn’t been crossed. 

I’ve revisited my view on the Iraq war on many occasions and it’s important to put things into proper context, meaning post 9/11. There were many, myself included, that were out for blood and we didn’t care whose it was. Much like in Vietnam when a platoon was wiped out in a 5 minute skirmish, only to have the enemy slip back into the bush and throw on civilian clothing. They ended up taking it out in the villagers, many who were enemy of course, but most who weren’t. They were angrily swinging at ghosts most of the time and my support of the Iraq war feels eerily similar when I find myself reminiscing. 

It wasn’t right then and it isn’t right today, hopefully now that my youthful bravado has faded, I’ll be able to properly diagnose such a mistake in the future. 

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I remember having this conversation with Tahoe, back when he was still posting here, and when most people thought of him as a thinker more than a sycophant.  I talked about bright lines that I had, and he came right out and said that none of us should have bright lines.  That was when I decided never to take him seriously again.  I guess enough other people got there as well and I assume that's why he's quit posting here.  But yeah, even the "thinkers" in the GOP were pretty much telling everyone not to have any lines, to remain loyal to the team no matter what.  Fuck that.  I wouldn't join any group that required that kind of loyalty, and it is absolutely amazing to me that I have so many people in my family who have.