Mass shooting ar Cali bar

[Felix 601]

He's being obtuse because he can't admit when he's wrong.  It's his MO.  He'll argue with you until you just quit and then declare victory.  It's better not to engage.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Felix said:

He's being obtuse because he can't admit when he's wrong.  It's his MO.  He'll argue with you until you just quit and then declare victory.  It's better not to engage.

Damn, 95 posts and you've got him cold.  Who's sock are you BTW ?

[Felix 601]

I've been on Hornfans/Shaggy/Surly since they started.  I just don't post much.  I prefer to read and hopefully learn something.  I've observed most of the posters for years so I know most of y'alls style pretty well.

[AtticusFinch 155]

19 minutes ago, Whitman said:

You wrote something earlier mentioning the shooter video games these kids have grown up spending thousands of hours playing.  I 've seen a couple of them and I can't imagine how that isn't going to fuck up a small percentage of people's thinking and rationality.  Something else I've read, and don't really understand is the thought of being famous.  Some people want it and the attention so bad that they will do these kind of things to achieve this.  It's just like a 5 year old's tantrum x 1 billion in severity.

There is overwhelming evidence that social media is causing narcissism and causing more severe versions of it.  Kids brains are developing until the 20's.  There is a reason the millitary draft age is 18.  The kids can be molded in to trained killers.  Blind support of cell phones and unlimited gaming and social media by parents is idiotic and moronic.  Of course all this crap is playing a part and causing forms of mental illness.  Narcissism is incurable and it is all over the place infecting relationships,  work environments and politics.  Our world is way more fucked up than it used to be even though it is much more convenient 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23366]

1 hour ago, landman said:

but the thing about nutjobs/criminals is they don't follow laws.  If they did then we wouldn't need to do background checks and be talking about banning certain types of guns or magazines.  They'll still find them/use them

Yeah, because all these criminals are using fully automatic weapons.

/sarcasm 

[SDG 3319]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yeah, because all these criminals are using fully automatic weapons.

/sarcasm 

Well he did use an already illegal magazine.  

[Tired of Lurking 637]

21 minutes ago, AtticusFinch said:

There is overwhelming evidence that social media is causing narcissism and causing more severe versions of it.  Kids brains are developing until the 20's.  There is a reason the millitary draft age is 18.  The kids can be molded in to trained killers.  Blind support of cell phones and unlimited gaming and social media by parents is idiotic and moronic.  Of course all this crap is playing a part and causing forms of mental illness.  Narcissism is incurable and it is all over the place infecting relationships,  work environments and politics.  Our world is way more fucked up than it used to be even though it is much more convenient 

The irony, god damn. The victims here were these vapid, narcissistic, social media addicts you hate (18 to 20 year old college students) and the shooter was one of these military 'trained killers'.

 

Also, an interesting tidbit: Thousand Oaks is one of the safest cities in America, and the killer is from Cameron Rising's hometown.

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

1 hour ago, landman said:

I don't disagree with you, but the thing about nutjobs/criminals is they don't follow laws.  If they did then we wouldn't need to do background checks and be talking about banning certain types of guns or magazines.  They'll still find them/use them.  It's never going to end, unfortunately.  We are way too far gone, be it a lack of parenting, a lack of religion (cue the haters), a lack of respect for people/life, whatever way you want to look at it.  There is no fix.  Ban the large magazines, they'll use multiple small ones or come up with another way. 

Add to the list of reasons is the instant notoriety these people get because of 24 hour cable news, the internet, and social media. We are all guilty of feeding the monster, otherwise we wouldn’t be on this thread or switching to Fox News or CNN. This has more to do with the increase in mass shootings over the same span of time when murder rates have dropped than does the availability of high capacity magazines. If it’s not for plain notoriety, these sick fucks sure have seen how they can spread their anger against a world they hate. 

[RomaVicta 29824]

31 minutes ago, AtticusFinch said:

There is overwhelming evidence that social media is causing narcissism and causing more severe versions of it.  Kids brains are developing until the 20's.  There is a reason the military draft age is 18.  The kids can be molded in to trained killers.  Blind support of cell phones and unlimited gaming and social media by parents is idiotic and moronic.  Of course all this crap is playing a part and causing forms of mental illness.  Narcissism is incurable and it is all over the place infecting relationships,  work environments and politics.  Our world is way more fucked up than it used to be even though it is much more convenient 

This and other similar posts are where I am. All of this should be explored. 

The thing is, what can you do about it? Deny cell phones and video games to the millions of people who will never commit a crime? Can there be a mass cure for narcissism?

I'm fine with laws to prevent high volume magazines, bump stocks and the like which make mass killing easier. That could keep the body count lower, I suppose. I don't see those laws impacting the killers' intent much.

I'm at a loss. I am glad to see more posts exploring avenues other than gun control and the usual limited debate.

We'll soon be living in the movie, Brazil. So strange.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23366]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Need to get one of these:

Printed with:

1 - thoughts and prayers

2 - mental health!

3 - gun control!

4 - too soon to talk about gun control!

5 - if brown, muslim terrorist!

6 - if white, right wing terrorist!

 

I think that about covers it.  Let's just move on to the next shooting.

For the zillionth time, it’s a radicalization problem. You can’t blame it on one variable like gun culture, video games, social media, or mental health. It’s a whole of society problem that we’re going to have to recognize before it gets solved.    

You can try to contain the consequences through gun regulations and better access to mental health treatment, which are worth doing IMO but until we start talking, listening, and treating each other better, this shit will continue.

These shooters are almost always young men lashing out at the world around them for whatever perceived frustration, catalyzed by isolation and neglect.  Sometimes they latch on to a cause like religious or political extremism to justify their violence but the underlying rage was always there. 

It’s very sad.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Yes, because arming a server that deals with a rush of drunk people yelling their orders at them is a healthy environment to carry a firearm. 

Fuck it.  Let's arm waiters, cashiers, or anyone in the service industry. MORE GUNS. 

 

I’d bet mass murdering shooters (or in this case, armed robbers) would choose a different target. The argument that allowing bartenders to CC will lead to more shootings is lame because people are increasingly carrying in all sorts of places and situations that are stressful, yet CC Permit holders aren’t committing a bunch of spontaneous murders because they suddenly flip out. 

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

1 hour ago, tjhooker said:

I was saying political discussions should be in the CR threads because it will quickly turn this threads into a political CR debate shit show.  Not that this shouldn't be politically discussed.  

But where can people-who-don’t-CR go to discuss these things in a more civil manner?

[NowThis 931]

52 minutes ago, AtticusFinch said:

There is overwhelming evidence that social media is causing narcissism and causing more severe versions of it.  Kids brains are developing until the 20's.  There is a reason the millitary draft age is 18.  The kids can be molded in to trained killers.  Blind support of cell phones and unlimited gaming and social media by parents is idiotic and moronic.  Of course all this crap is playing a part and causing forms of mental illness.  Narcissism is incurable and it is all over the place infecting relationships,  work environments and politics.  Our world is way more fucked up than it used to be even though it is much more convenient 

social media, surly included, has transformed human behavior like nothing else and i'm including TV which turned people into zombies. Life is nothing but staring into screens.

[Sbbruin 21784]

1 hour ago, Orange&White said:

Do you honestly believe it would be difficult for, literally, anyone in this country to get a weapon if they wanted one, or are you just trying to set up an argument, or are you just being obtuse?

The argument that we shouldn't bother because anyone could get a weapon if they really wanted one is flimsy and short-sighted.  We have to take the first step, however small.  If ONE shooter is thwarted and lives are  saved as a result, it's worth it in my opinion.  Especially if one of those lives was a loved one.  There are parents grieving the loss of their child this morning.  A pain I could not begin to imagine.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

34 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

These shooters are almost always young men lashing out at the world around them for whatever perceived frustration, catalyzed by isolation and neglect.  Sometimes they latch on to a cause like religious or political extremism to justify their violence but the underlying rage was always there. 

My 2 cents, which isn't worth 2 cents:

Young men need an outlet for all that testosterone. Sports/work/exercise. We've taken our boys and barricaded them into their rooms, given them access to the world via a hand held device and smothered them. They need to be outside smashing rocks against trees like we did. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23366]

Imagine if everyone owned tanks instead of guns and we had a maniac tank rampage problem.  Here’s how this debate would go in our current discourse:

 Are tanks really necessary to make it in society?  Well, if you’re only mode of transportation is your tank it kind of is.  Wouldn’t want to disadvantage all those people by banning tanks.

If we ban tanks, where will it stop? Are we going to ban cars too?! They can kill people as well.  If someone is determined to kill people, they’re going to do it so it makes little sense to ban tanks.  

You know how we solve this tank rampage problem?  More tanks.  Daddy always said the best way to stop a bad guy with a tank is a good guy with a tank. 

If we outlaw tanks, only the outlaws will have tanks.

The tanks are not the problem, we need to do something about mental health.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Sbbruin 21784]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

My 2 cents, which isn't worth 2 cents:

Young men need an outlet for all that testosterone. Sports/work/exercise. We've taken our boys and barricaded them into their rooms, given them access to the world via a hand held device and smothered them. They need to be outside smashing rocks against trees like we did. 

I couldn't agree more.  

[SDG 3319]

9 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

My 2 cents, which isn't worth 2 cents:

Young men need an outlet for all that testosterone. Sports/work/exercise. We've taken our boys and barricaded them into their rooms, given them access to the world via a hand held device and smothered them. They need to be outside smashing rocks against trees like we did. 

I agree. I also think that viewing the world through a screen desensitizes people of others emotions or feelings making it easier to perform these actions. 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

2 minutes ago, SDG said:

I agree. I also think that viewing the world through a screen desensitizes people of others emotions or feelings making it easier to perform these actions. 

No doubt. Places like Twitter are cancer. They allow you to vilify the people without remorse or feeling.

[Trey3216 15325]

16 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

My 2 cents, which isn't worth 2 cents:

Young men need an outlet for all that testosterone. Sports/work/exercise. We've taken our boys and barricaded them into their rooms, given them access to the world via a hand held device and smothered them. They need to be outside smashing rocks against trees like we did. 

Add in that we've pumped them full of debilitating drugs since childhood to 'keep them calm'.  They're boys.  They need to get energy out.  Teachers get to hand out diagnoses of AD/HD to parents and doctors like candy these days.  That's on parents as much as it is anyone to make sure their kids are active outside of school so they can be attentive inside the classroom.  

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 hour ago, Orange&White said:

Do you honestly believe it would be difficult for, literally, anyone in this country to get a weapon if they wanted one, or are you just trying to set up an argument, or are you just being obtuse?

Are we talking about right now when OTC sales and transfers are both legal?  Or are we talking about the future when they aren't?

I do think a marine would have connections to obtain a weapon in that future environment.  I know guys like James Holmes wouldn't.  And I also think this marine's connections wouldn't sell or give him a weapon given his mental state.

People that think some loner can just walk into the ghetto and buy a gun have never actually lived in or been to the ghetto.

Edited November 8, 2018 by FondrenRoad

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

1 hour ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

Add to the list of reasons is the instant notoriety these people get because of 24 hour cable news, the internet, and social media. We are all guilty of feeding the monster, otherwise we wouldn’t be on this thread or switching to Fox News or CNN. This has more to do with the increase in mass shootings over the same span of time when murder rates have dropped than does the availability of high capacity magazines. If it’s not for plain notoriety, these sick fucks sure have seen how they can spread their anger against a world they hate. 

 

Yep. Ironically (Sadly) in a world where you can literally have a conversation with someone anywhere in a world via the internet, cellphones, and social media it actually is making people become more and more alone. It's easy to just sit in your house/room with your computer and surround yourself with a make believe world that you will never fit into or be a part of. It's a disease to be liked and instead of going out and having a conversation with friends or anyone for that matter they become more and more depressed until some snap. 

Internet friends are great but people need real face to face interactions and live in their actual real world that is scientifically proven to be better for your overall health. 

 

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19152]

3 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

I wouldn't be listening to country anymore

I’d be playing the fuck out of the Powerball though.

[Fudge Nuggets 19152]

3 hours ago, Lat22 said:

It’s a felony to carry inside of a business that gets at least 51% of its income from alcohol sales. Licensed to carry or not. 

It’s s also a felony to shoot up a bar, school, whatever. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Fudge Nuggets

[sunset87 240]

15 minutes ago, SDG said:

I agree. I also think that viewing the world through a screen desensitizes people of others emotions or feelings making it easier to perform these actions. 

Absolutely this. Add this in with the ability for these guys to find like minded people within social media and get affirmation that they are not alone in their skewed view of life, might help embolden them to take action. 

The whole incel sub-culture is a product of social media giving these individuals a way to connect.  I think there have been at least 3 mass killings from guys that considered themselves "incels".

The other thing I wonder is if these types have become the modern version of the serial killer that seemed much more prevalent 20+ years ago.  There's been a large decline in the last 3 decades of serial killings, at a similar time as the increase of mass killings.  Is it because of societal change? Dunno. They might not be related at all, just an observation on my part.

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

42 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Are we talking about right now when OTC sales and transfers are both legal?  Or are we talking about the future when they aren't?

I do think a marine would have connections to obtain a weapon in that future environment.  I know guys like James Holmes wouldn't.  And I also think this marine's connections wouldn't sell or give him a weapon given his mental state.

People that think some loner can just walk into the ghetto and buy a gun have never actually lived in or been to the ghetto.

But if buying/selling guns suddenly became very difficult, the black market for guns would explode. I can’t think of another example, but maybe some posters will help me out. 

[Orange&White 5516]

1 hour ago, Sbbruin said:

The argument that we shouldn't bother because anyone could get a weapon if they really wanted one is flimsy and short-sighted.  We have to take the first step, however small.  If ONE shooter is thwarted and lives are  saved as a result, it's worth it in my opinion.  Especially if one of those lives was a loved one.  There are parents grieving the loss of their child this morning.  A pain I could not begin to imagine.

I am not sure how your response has any bearing or relation to what I typed. I wan't "arguing" anything.

I was simply wondering why someone would think that, as things stand right now, that anyone would have any difficulty obtaining a gun of they wanted one.

 

[Tired of Lurking 637]

Family notifications are beginning. The Cody Coffman story/dad's interview is going to slay some people. RIP Cody.

[Orange&White 5516]

2 minutes ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

But if buying/selling guns suddenly became very difficult, the black market for guns would explode. I can’t think of another example, but maybe some posters will help me out. 

Drugs have been illegal for decades and elementary school kids can buy them pretty much at will.

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

Thanks for the help. I couldn’t quite put my finger on that one. 

[Constant 6722]

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Constant

[TexLonghorn 5598]

6 hours ago, 3adays said:

Don’t forget the yoga studio shooting last Friday. So really just 6 days

Ah yeah, my bad.  Eventually, we'll have a notable mass shooting anniversary for every day of the year.  

[Mo Horn 8808]

Wrong thread nvm

Edited November 8, 2018 by Mo Horn

[Lat22 3995]

It’s s also a felony to shoot up a bar, school, whatever. 

I was responding directly to post #50. That was “my point”.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13419]

These stories will eventually be at the level of a traffic fatality:  won't make the national news.    

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

25 minutes ago, sunset87 said:

Absolutely this. Add this in with the ability for these guys to find like minded people within social media and get affirmation that they are not alone in their skewed view of life, might help embolden them to take action. 

The whole incel sub-culture is a product of social media giving these individuals a way to connect.  I think there have been at least 3 mass killings from guys that considered themselves "incels".

The other thing I wonder is if these types have become the modern version of the serial killer that seemed much more prevalent 20+ years ago.  There's been a large decline in the last 3 decades of serial killings, at a similar time as the increase of mass killings.  Is it because of societal change? Dunno. They might not be related at all, just an observation on my part.

 

And for whatever reason those groups get great joy in being miserable together. It's like a game of "how bad my life sucks", "and the world is going to end". I will never understand those that find ways to be and stay unhappy in their life. 

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

27 minutes ago, Constant said:

 

That trend pretty much mirrors the proliferation of social media. 

Speaking of which, my New Years Day resolutions are going to include spending less time on Surly...right after NSD. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by ImissWallyPryor

[pops 6975]

Probably already discussed above, but another issue is society used to be able to spot the loners because, well, they were loners and asocial and whatever. Now, everyone is a loner looking at a fucking screen. If we were even to begin to take mental health seriously in this country how do we go about finding the loners when it is so easy to never have to socially interact with anyone. Ever. 

Spitballing here, but I would assume that's the reason for the decline in serial killers and the increase in mass shootings. Serial killing requires social interaction at some level. Mass shootings do not. 

[ImissWallyPryor 9045]

Excellent points, pops. 

[Fondren & Main 6676]

Curious to know if this guy was on anti-depressants or not.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

18 minutes ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

But if buying/selling guns suddenly became very difficult, the black market for guns would explode. I can’t think of another example, but maybe some posters will help me out. 

First, hording would tighten up supply making everything more expensive.  Possibly out of the price range of a nutjob.  Second, a seller would be committing an illegal transaction when selling a weapon.  So right now, when they track this shooter's gun purchase, it traces back to the store, and the store has 0 liability.  One thing you will notice when mass shooting events occur is that every single time, investigators have no issue finding the point of sale or transfer that put the gun in the shooter's hands.  If these same mentally unstable individuals are forced to attempt a black market purchase, they'd be leading investigators right to the seller's door.  So the black market seller would be an accessory to mass murder once we change the law to put some liability on the seller.  This purchase is different than the typical black market gun purchase for intentional use.   A gang member isn't going to talk and isn't publishing twitter manifestos, and I don't think changes in the law will stop those targeted types of murder.  It will severely reduce the chance of random mass shooting events, however.

 

Guns are not equivalent to drugs.  A drug addict is going to be a repeat customer.  Always going back to get a fix.  A mass shooter is a one time customer who will bring the police to the dealer's door.

[Hank Scorpio 17724]

I feel like everyone is blaming social media and violent video games. I'll go with an oldie but a goodie: rock music. I hear if you play that new song backwards it tells you to worship the devil. 

[Kyle 207]

4 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Sickening. Truly sickening.

Again, what is going on in the minds of these non-political, motiveless killers?

Isolation, mental illness, social dysfunction, and whatever fuckeduppedness have always been with us. Now these potential suicides want to take people with them.

I have to think that first person shooter games and maybe movies make it easier for these people to visualize this action. Maybe there's something in the water. The gun culture isn't terribly healthy, but it's not new.

I can't help but feel that we don't have a real clue as to why Americans in particular do this.

Sounds like this guy had serious mental problems but refused help. 

It feels like we need to return to forceable treatment or institutionalization of some mentally ill people. I respect the ACLU and realize it will lose its mind, but this feels like a public safety issue at this point. Naive but optimistic we have advanced culturally and medically so we can do so with better conditions and treatment that can return most to normality.

[Sbbruin 21784]

44 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

I am not sure how your response has any bearing or relation to what I typed. I wan't "arguing" anything.

I was simply wondering why someone would think that, as things stand right now, that anyone would have any difficulty obtaining a gun of they wanted one.

 

I'm only stating that we have to start somewhere.  And making it even slightly more difficult to buy a gun may prevent a future tragedy.  Doing nothing will not.

[Tired of Lurking 637]

Tamera Mowry's (of Sister Sister and The Real) niece is unaccounted for and may be a victim.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Tired of Lurking

[Hate 20104]

3 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Sounds like this guy had serious mental problems but refused help. 

It feels like we need to return to forceable treatment or institutionalization of some mentally ill people. I respect the ACLU and realize it will lose its mind, but this feels like a public safety issue at this point. Naive but optimistic we have advanced culturally and medically so we can do so with better conditions and treatment that can return most to normality.

Well if that happens, we could have them institutionalized.  

[Telegraph_it 3354]

29 minutes ago, JimmyHoffa said:

There's been a large decline in the last 3 decades of serial killings, at a similar time as the increase of mass killings.

 

23 minutes ago, pops said:

Serial killing requires social interaction at some level. Mass shootings do not. 

Interesting observations here. 

Mindhunter on Netflix was a fascinating show to me in how it depicted the FBI realizing that serial killers actually exist and then creating a profile to determine what they share in common.  Is a mass shooter the (de)evolution of a serial killer or something completely different? Both clearly have no regard for life although it seems most mass shooters have no regard at all for their life either.  

[El Diablo 4232]

25 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

I feel like everyone is blaming social media and violent video games. I'll go with an oldie but a goodie: rock music. I hear if you play that new song backwards it tells you to worship the devil. 

It's not working.

[Tired of Lurking 637]

I don't think there is a link between the rise in spree or mass killers and the decrease in serial killers. They don't kill the same way, they don't have the same motives. I think the decrease in serial killers is due to an advancement in forensics. Killers just can't get away with murder easily these days.

Mass shooters are a different beast.

[pops 6975]

1 minute ago, Tired of Lurking said:

I don't think there is a link between the rise in spree or mass killers and the decrease in serial killers. They don't kill the same way, they don't have the same motives. I think the decrease in serial killers is due to an advancement in forensics. Killers just can't get away with murder easily these days.

Mass shooters are a different beast.

I think that is a good point.  Plus, serial killers did not want to get caught.  Mass shooters seem to know it is the end of the line.  Different branches on the same tree perhaps?