Mass shooting ar Cali bar

[High Plains Drifter 10,984]

On 11/8/2018 at 10:55 PM, Brisketexan said:

It’s brutal. I just listened to the audio on the way home, and it was too damn much.

But it won’t matter. Nobody in this country is changing their mind about anything.

Might as well sticky a post about “another mass shooting” at the top of the page, and on and on it will go.

Every one of us should be forced to listen to that. Every kid in every school, every adult before they get their next pay check, every politician before their next vote or speech. 

 

Fuck, Sandyhook should have been roped off and left as is, and everyone of us should have to walk through the school annually. Everyone of us should have to see what SBBruin's nephew saw.

[High Plains Drifter 10,984]

On 11/11/2018 at 8:06 AM, phdhorn said:

Actually, considering the number of shootings where that didn't happen, it's pretty much as hypothetical.  The only way this guy stopped shooting is to kill himself.

Hi-cap mags are not a real solution in my opinion.  If they want to ban them again, I can live with it.  But "real world data" doesn't show what you're saying.

By the way, here's an example of "real world data" from my perspective.  Feel free to post something from yours.

https://www.cato.org/publications/legal-policy-bulletin/losing-count-empty-case-high-capacity-magazine-restrictions

Sounds like a good argument to ban more than just high capacity magazines.

[Hate 20,104]

Agreed. We should ban crazy people.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

21 minutes ago, Hate said:

Agreed. We should ban crazy people.

The Nazis wanted to ban crazy people you insensitive bastard.

[MissingInAction 24,866]

Surly would cease to exist.

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

1 hour ago, MissingInAction said:

Surly would cease to exist.

Surly Control is necessary.

[Sbbruin 21,784]

23 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Every one of us should be forced to listen to that. Every kid in every school, every adult before they get their next pay check, every politician before their next vote or speech. 

 

Fuck, Sandyhook should have been roped off and left as is, and everyone of us should have to walk through the school annually. Everyone of us should have to see what SBBruin's nephew saw.

I remember on the old site when that happened.  The thread started to devolve into a gun debate, so I started the gun control thread just so the focus of that tragedy could remain relatively CR free.  But I was convinced that Sandy Hook was going to be a tipping point.  I had a first grade daughter at the time.  It shook me to my core thinking about that happening to her.  Because it did happen to a lot of parents that morning.  But we somehow moved on with no real change or even productive dialogue.  And that is amazing to me.

[High Plains Drifter 10,984]

There was a story about an old retired guy who lived near the school. He was puttering about when all of the sudden a bunch of hysterical kids came running down the street. He herded them all into his house, gave them all stuffed animals from his daughter's bedroom (she was off at college or something), and sat with them. He called the cops and told them their names. Eventually, their parents came trickling in to pick up them up.

For hours after the last kid was gone, hysterical parents were stopping by, hoping that their kids were at his house. Telling those parents that he didn't know where their kids were, and seeing on their faces the realization that their kids were probably dead in the school would haunt him forever.

I also had young kids in elementary school when that happened. I can't even imagine.

 

[Sbbruin 21,784]

I remember that as well.  I honestly don't know how I could ever recover from that.  

[PilotsError 2,286]

So the cop killed in the shooting was killed by another cop.  Not even remotely surprised.   One gun range I go to is owned by a cop, so many cops go there, and they are by far the most irresponsible with their firearms.  They're also TERRIBLE shots under zero pressure.  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/officer-killed-responding-to-thousand-oaks-mass-shooting-was-fatally-struck-by-friendly-fire-police-say/2018/12/07/e7405186-fa52-11e8-8c9a-860ce2a8148f_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3d3d1ba5e57c

The veteran police officer shot and killed while rushing to confront a mass shooter in Thousand Oaks, Calif., last month was fatally struck by friendly fire rather than bullets fired by the gunman, authorities said Friday.

The grim revelation, made public a month after the Nov. 7 massacre at the Borderline Bar and Grill, adds another tragic element to what witnesses and authorities have described as a chaotic, terrifying scene at the country-music venue.

When the gunfire ended, a dozen people had been fatally wounded — including Ventura County Sheriff’s Sgt. Ron Helus, 54 — and the gunman had killed himself with a single shot to his head. Police have identified the attacker as 28-year-old Ian David Long, who had a history of angry behavior, and said they are still investigating what could have motivated the rampage.

[Investigators still seeking motive for the Thousand Oaks shooting]

Helus responded to reports of the shooting by heading with a California Highway Patrol officer into “what can only be described as a combat situation,” Ventura County Sheriff Bill Ayub said during a somber briefing Friday. Ayub said after Long shot bar patrons and employees, he waited for law enforcement to respond and then “almost immediately” began shooting at them.

“Sgt. Helus was struck five times by gunfire from the suspect,” Ayub said. “Today, I’m deeply saddened to inform you that Sgt. Helus was also struck by a sixth bullet, which we now know . . . was fired from the CHP officer’s rifle.”

That sixth bullet was fatal, Ayub said. The gunman’s bullets hit Helus and “caused serious injuries but potentially survivable injuries,” Christopher Young, the Ventura County chief medical examiner, said at the news conference. But the highway patrol officer’s bullet hit Helus’s chest and his heart, Young said.

“This is sad news and a tragedy, but ultimately, this was the most severe injury sustained,” Young said.

[They survived Las Vegas. Then came a second mass shooting in Thousand Oaks]

The highway patrol officer was not identified; the agency described him as a nine-year veteran of that force who is currently not on duty.

“He’s devastated,” said L.D. Maples, chief of the highway patrol’s coastal division.

The explanation for Helus’s death speaks to the frenzied, dangerous and often unclear situations faced by law enforcement officials who head to active shooting scenes. Officers responding to such attacks across the country have later described the sheer terror and confusion they encountered, in some cases not knowing how many attackers were opening fire or entering rooms without knowing whether a shooter was poised behind the door ready to fire.

That confusion can also lead to fatal mistakes for law enforcement officers trying to help. Prince George’s Detective Jacai Colson was responding to an attack on a police station in 2016 when another officer, mistaking Colson for a threat, shot and killed him.

[Las Vegas police who responded to shooting rampage: ‘We were in disbelief’]

In Thousand Oaks, Ayub said Helus “was clearly not the intended target” of the shot that killed him. While Ayub said specific facets of that shot were still being investigated, he noted that the scene inside the bar was dark, smoke-filled and unfolding rapidly.

“This is a tragic detail that I don’t think was avoidable,” he said.

Police have said Long fired more than 50 rounds from a Glock .45-caliber pistol during his attack inside Borderline. He lobbed smoke grenades that fueled the confusion inside, authorities say, sending people who were fleeing the carnage leaping through windows or scrambling for shelter in the bar’s attic. Young, the medical examiner, has said he has no evidence suggesting any other victims were struck or killed by the responding officers.

The sheriff said he rested blame for Helus’s death — as well as the other deaths and injuries that resulted from the massacre — solely with the attacker, who Ayub did not name during his news briefing.

“He alone created the violence and he alone bears the responsibility for his course of action,” Ayub said. “He went there with a plan and a purpose and that was to take innocent lives. The burden lies solely with him, not those who tried to save lives, those who tried to escape and certainly not with those who died while simply trying to enjoy an evening with friends.”

[Lat22 3,995]

That’s terrible. You almost have to grow up around guns and have a place (meaning land in the country) to shoot them to be truly comfortable and competent with them. Going to a sterile shooting range and shooting paper or steel at a predetermined distance isn’t good enough for most. I’m guessing the deceased officer was wearing a vest that stopped the 45s but not the 5.56?

[huge 3,789]

Wouldn’t be surprising. We were shooting a steel plate pistol target recently and someone lit into it with an AR. Buncha holes in the target. Oops.

[Armybrat 40,756]

On 11/9/2018 at 3:23 PM, irishtexan said:

That's not a reason to do nothing.

The primary weapon used in the school shooting I witnessed first hand on the scene was a 6mm Remington bolt action hunting rifle with a 5 shot capacity. The shooter used it to kill 14 people and wound 31 more. He also used a .30 caliber M1 Carbine, but it is not known how many, if any, of his victims were hit by that one. It sounded kind of puny compared to the “boom” of the Remington.

[El Diablo 4,232]

46 minutes ago, huge said:

Wouldn’t be surprising. We were shooting a steel plate pistol target recently and someone lit into it with an AR. Buncha holes in the target. Oops.

Reminds me of one of my many embarrassing moments. I was living in rural North Carolina where deer were plentiful and leases were unheard of. Wife bought me a 30-30 lever action and I had permission from several people to hunt on their land. I had grown up hunting here in Central Texas, just not large game. 

Anyway, one of the guys at work mentioned that he belonged to a gun club/range and that they were having a steel target shooting competition and invited me out, said if you have a gun feel free to bring it too. 

I'm a dumbass, it's a .22 shooting deal and I show up with a gun case and they want to see what I brought of course. When I opened it up they laughed. One of them was nice enough to let me use their dialed in target rifle and I took 1st place, so some vindication I guess.

[Pato del Muerto 52,369]

On 12/8/2018 at 12:09 PM, Armybrat said:

The primary weapon used in the school shooting I witnessed first hand on the scene was a 6mm Remington bolt action hunting rifle with a 5 shot capacity. The shooter used it to kill 14 people and wound 31 more. He also used a .30 caliber M1 Carbine, but it is not known how many, if any, of his victims were hit by that one. It sounded kind of puny compared to the “boom” of the Remington.

That shooting was tactically much different than all of these others. Whitman was sniping from high ground, not spraying into masses of targets. 

[Armybrat 40,756]

I just said he also used an M1 carbine that he “sprayed” (an asinine way to describe shooting) at the hundreds of students crossing the Mall. I could also have said that a gallon of gas could be more lethal for mass murder.

[Caver60 395]

On 11/13/2018 at 11:14 AM, Sbbruin said:

But we somehow moved on with no real change or even productive dialogue.  And that is amazing to me.

Every time we have another school shooting, I'm reminded that the gun control debate in America isn't a debate at all. When we stand by and collectively watch our children murdered and do nothing, there is no debate. 

[Armybrat 40,756]

Plenty has been done, but too many don’t enforce the laws. For the rest of the argument, finish it in the CR.

[jimmyjazz 45,609]

6 hours ago, Armybrat said:

I just said he also used an M1 carbine that he “sprayed” (an asinine way to describe shooting) at the hundreds of students crossing the Mall. I could also have said that a gallon of gas could be more lethal for mass murder.

Oh come the fuck on.  The tower is 307' tall.  Whitman was probably 350' or more from his victims, firing into random West Mall foot traffic, which is not "packed".  That's over a football field away, a far cry from the inside of a nightclub (although ironically not a far cry from wiping out dozens upon dozens of innocent people from a fucking hotel room in Las Vegas).  If you fire at a repetitive and high rate into a dense crowd of people (NOT the situation on the West Mall), you're gonna score a lot of casualties.

[Armybrat 40,756]

Whitman shot & killed one guy near me by Littlefield fountain and wounded another a block behind me.  Distance didn’t make a shit.

[jimmyjazz 45,609]

6 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Whitman shot & killed one guy near me by Littlefield fountain and wounded another a block behind me.  Distance didn’t make a shit.

Which has fuck all to do with my point.  In fact, it reinforces my point.  He was a sharpshooter who did most of his damage by sniping his victims from a fair distance.  He was trained to do exactly that.  His inability to effectively "spray" the West Mall and cause serious damage means nothing -- he was too far away and there were too few people.

Come on.

[Armybrat 40,756]

I don’t care what you think your point is.

[JohnnyRage 1,617]

38 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

I don’t care what you think your point is.

New Surly Motto?

[jimmyjazz 45,609]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

I don’t care what you think your point is.

That's obvious, because you don't care to actually engage in an honest conversation about guns.  You never have been.

[immortal13 4,059]

2 hours ago, Armybrat said:

I don’t care what you think your point is.

I don't think he is even making the point he thinks he is. Not really shocking

[Armybrat 40,756]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

That's obvious, because you don't care to actually engage in an honest conversation about guns.  You never have been.

Nah, it’s just that you “common sense” gun control people are nothing but one trick ponies that have never had any desire to engage in a real conversation. SOS CR mindlessness.

[Lat22 3,995]

22 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

That shooting was tactically much different than all of these others. Whitman was sniping from high ground, not spraying into masses of targets. 

I don’t think the nutjob was “spraying” into the crowd. I think he was shooting individuals. He was a Marine. That cop didn’t get hit four times by coincidence. 

[jimmyjazz 45,609]

2 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Nah, it’s just that you “common sense” gun control people are nothing but one trick ponies that have never had any desire to engage in a real conversation. SOS CR mindlessness.

Bull.  Shit.  I challenge you to lay out in detail my "one trick".  You don't know jack about my position because you're stubborn and you don't pay attention.

[Armybrat 40,756]

Take your silly jack position "challenge" back to that CR shithole where it belongs. You aren't changing anyone's mind here... or there.

Otherwise I enjoy your postings outside that CR sewer.

[Sbbruin 21,784]

14 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Nah, it’s just that you “common sense” gun control people are nothing but one trick ponies that have never had any desire to engage in a real conversation. SOS CR mindlessness.

I like you old man..  But this comment is so comical I don't know where to start.  The only ones unwilling to engage in real, meaningful dialogue is the NRA and 2nd amendment diehards, and everyone knows that.

[Armybrat 40,756]

I've been done "debating" with the emotional gun control types since TOS. Nothing new to add here, and the same goes for the "other side".

So you people go right ahead and have at it.

 

[jimmyjazz 45,609]

38 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

I've been done "debating" with the emotional gun control types since TOS. Nothing new to add here, and the same goes for the "other side".

So you people go right ahead and have at it.

 

Solid take.  You really brought it home there.  LMAO.

[immortal13 4,059]

More gun control laws serve no purpose to someone bent on murder. It's a concept liberals act as if they don't understand, but in reality they do. It sheds a lot of light on the true purpose of their agenda.

[Helobious 9,496]

3 hours ago, immortal13 said:

More gun control laws serve no purpose to someone bent on murder. It's a concept liberals act as if they don't understand, but in reality they do. It sheds a lot of light on the true purpose of their agenda.

Laws serve no purpose to someone bent on breaking them. So I guess we shouldn’t have any with that logic.

[immortal13 4,059]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

Laws serve no purpose to someone bent on breaking them. So I guess we shouldn’t have any with that logic.

Not saying that. I'm saying there are already tons of gun laws...more won't matter. It makes people feel better to think that it will. I get that

[Sbbruin 21,784]

53 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Not saying that. I'm saying there are already tons of gun laws...more won't matter. It makes people feel better to think that it will. I get that

If just one of these lunatics is thwarted due to the difficulties of obtaining a firearm, or one fewer person is killed due to lower capacity magazines, it would be worth it.  Especially if it were my kid who lived.

[Lat22 3,995]

Maybe we should all wear helmets in our cars? I’m sure it would save at least one person. 

[mycox 582]

1 hour ago, Lat22 said:

Maybe we should all wear helmets in our cars? I’m sure it would save at least one person. 

This is a pretty dumb statement

[ImissWallyPryor 9,045]

On 12/11/2018 at 11:09 AM, Sbbruin said:

I like you old man..  But this comment is so comical I don't know where to start.  The only ones unwilling to engage in real, meaningful dialogue is the NRA and 2nd amendment diehards, and everyone knows that.

And perhaps that’s because the people and groups calling loudest for “meaningful dialogue” have no intention of stopping or backing off when their  “common sense” gun control laws have no effect on evil doers.  Banning the internet and 24-hour news would probably do more to change people’s uncivil behavior, but like that will ever happen. 

[Helobious 9,496]

8 hours ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

And perhaps that’s because the people and groups calling loudest for “meaningful dialogue” have no intention of stopping or backing off when their  “common sense” gun control laws have no effect on evil doers.  Banning the internet and 24-hour news would probably do more to change people’s uncivil behavior, but like that will ever happen. 

People have been uncivil assholes since forever, the internet didnt change that. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

36 minutes ago, Helobious said:

People have been uncivil assholes since forever, the internet didnt change that. 

Oh the hell it didn't fuck face.  See what I did there ??  

The internet has made it much much easier to be uncivil to people because of the anonymity of the internet.

[immortal13 4,059]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Oh the hell it didn't fuck face.  See what I did there ??  

The internet has made it much much easier to be uncivil to people because of the anonymity of the internet.

Exactly, there is no doubt the internet has made the problem much worse.

[Fondren & Main 6,676]

If you want to solve the problem then address the root cause.  I think we should look into these violent video games that kids grow up with and see what effect they have on their emotional development.  That may be a good place to start.  Shit, when I was a kid we had Mega Man X and Mortal Kombat.  These kids now are groomed with VR killing.  It’s the guns though...that’s the ticket...

[bernorange 8,350]

F&M - It's not video games.  It's relationship dynamics.  It's the way outcasts react to the isolation from peer groups.  It's the instant access to mature content on the internet that immature minds really aren't ready for.  It's a lot of things that are cultural and not easy to fix because it requires that people make changes in how they live their lives.  That's not an easy solution to sell people.

[Fondren & Main 6,676]

3 hours ago, bernorange said:

F&M - It's not video games.  It's relationship dynamics.  It's the way outcasts react to the isolation from peer groups.  It's the instant access to mature content on the internet that immature minds really aren't ready for.  It's a lot of things that are cultural and not easy to fix because it requires that people make changes in how they live their lives.  That's not an easy solution to sell people.

I agree there are a lot of components.  The guns have been around for a long time in this country and this has become a very recent problem.  What changed?  Too many people are incapable of critical thinking and root cause analysis.  A lot post in the cloak room and on this thread. 

[XYZ 2,154]

One thing that changed in the last 20 years is SSRIs.

[XYZ 2,154]

GTA 5 is literally the worst.

[jimmyjazz 45,609]

On 12/12/2018 at 7:11 PM, BurntEyes said:

Not true at all. The folks that lean toward gun control only want to discuss much and often recited anti-gun propaganda that has been show time and time and time again to be the bullshit propaganda they are yet, they never go away.

Horseshit.

[Sbbruin 21,784]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Horseshit.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Sbbruin

[Fondren & Main 6,676]

6 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

You and JJ have both made comepelling, well thought out, data and fact driven specific points.

Seems the in depth specific fact based driven discussion I thought was not occuring clearly is in fact.

I stand corrected. Well played.

They’re overly emotional vaginas.