Pellet Grills and Smokers

[dcbc 14282]

Honest question.  Not trolling.  With a charcoal gravity type setup, are there any flavor improvements over a charcoal smoker like the WSM?  Put differently, does the charcoal smolder in the gravity setup or does it burn hot and the fan works better not only with controlling temp, but also with air flow (eliminating smoking)?  I'm sure the gravity setup can control temp down to 0.5 degrees.  But assuming I don't care about that level of precision and I can get a full brisket cook on a WSM with a larger basket without reloading, are there other advantages that I'm missing?  I'll take my answer off the air.  Thanks.

[choripan 771]

So I bought a Z Grills ZPG-7002F grill on sale late last year based on the "we built them for other people" narrative and some long-term reviews. I am new to pellet smoking but have tried a brisket and also a chuck roast for shits and giggles. Brisket first and chuck roast second. Used Traeger Texas beef blend. Smoked at 225 until the probe hit mid 190s then manually checked the meat starting at around 200.

Brisket came out good not great. Smoked until probe easily slid in/out at about 202. Had a really nice bark, was not the least bit dry, and had the right dangle. I know the smoke ring is primarily aesthetic, but was disappointed at its penetration. Overall, I would rate this BBQ that I'd be very happy with from a BBQ joint, but kinda disappointed with if I got it from a place I heard was really good. Provided I have time to do more smoking/prep, I'll probably not bother with run-of-the-mill BBQ places when I have this machine at home, but still spring for really good places.

This was a chuck roast I did, just because I've seen that it's an alternative to brisket. Good smoke ring, not great bark, and it cooked up a LOT quicker because there's so much less intramuscular fat. Would not make for myself, but if I knew I'd have a few "eww, fat..." people coming out, I'd definitely throw one on.

Overall, the quality of the machine itself seems average. It seems like they poured resources into what matters but not the extras or non-core items. Lower gauge steel on the lid, a number of cheaper plastic handles, wheels, etc., and the included cover didn't even last 6 months before tearing in a few places from the wind. But the controller unit and hopper do a really good job and I'm pretty happy for dipping my toes in the water with a relatively cheap machine. I feel like I got a 6/10 machine and paid for a 3/10 machine, which is really good for my scenario. *If* I stick with this a few years -- who knows, right? -- and it becomes a hobby, then at that point I'll spring for a nice one. Based on build quality and my above average use and care standards, I'd guess useful life on this is like 3-6 years.

Edited March 24, 2022 by choripan

[morehornsepower 855]

13 hours ago, Hate said:

So those of you with a Rec Teq, were you ever able to solve the Wi-Fi issue?  I tried every single thing on the forums to see if I could get it to connect but it hasn't worked.  I even tried to connect it to my phone with no luck.  I haven't called Rec Teq yet, but that will be the next step if there are no other solutions. 

I haven't had any issues with the wifi, but when I had a temp probe fail, Rec Teq's customer support was fantastic.  They quickly sent out two probes, no charge.  I've heard stories from others as well praising their support.  Definitely recommend giving them a call.

[Gene Parmesan 3953]

12 hours ago, dcbc said:

Honest question.  Not trolling.  With a charcoal gravity type setup, are there any flavor improvements over a charcoal smoker like the WSM?  Put differently, does the charcoal smolder in the gravity setup or does it burn hot and the fan works better not only with controlling temp, but also with air flow (eliminating smoking)?  I'm sure the gravity setup can control temp down to 0.5 degrees.  But assuming I don't care about that level of precision and I can get a full brisket cook on a WSM with a larger basket without reloading, are there other advantages that I'm missing?  I'll take my answer off the air.  Thanks.

Are you referring to the gravity fed Masterbuilt or Char Griller smokers?  I have the Char Griller 980 and I love it.  I doubt it improves upon the WSM since there are tons of upgrades and resources on how to get great smokes on the WSM.  Maybe cook volume would be an improvement.  I get plenty of smoke on mine though.  You can load wood chunks in the hopper or in the ash pan to get that smoldering smoke.  The hopper seems to burn hotter likely eliminating some that smoldering affect, but like I said you can put chunks in the ash pan to supplement.  Dollar for dollar I don't know if any smoker beats a WSM if you are just talking about single family cooks.  The only advantage I'd say is more accessible cooking surface and the ability to go from 250 to 500 in just a couple of minutes.  I have a weber kettle also and I am not getting rid of it, so I just use mine as a smoker only.

[horn4life 3749]

OK so I did some cursory research on a portable.  But like I said yesterday, I have almost zero knowledge on specifics.  Seeing some of you loading up carloads of pellets made me also wonder about the "running cost?"  Charcoal isn't especially cheap, and I do load up on sales knowing I will use it eventually so that's not a concern, just is there any rule of thumb regarding pellets per hour, or general hopper needs for length cooking time.  My shit would almost all be low and slow over the course of a day at the beach, or floating the river. So for me I m looking at this as something I leave unattended, which sort of makes me nervous, but what's the worst? Unit burns up?

Anyhow I found a couple units that seem like they might work.  How do you think a higher wind environment will affect temperature control? Pellet Burn rate? It's windy at the coast. 

  Camp Chef Pursuit 20 - $500

Pit Boss 260PSP2 - $350 Pit Boss 260PSP2 - $350

 

Any other suggestions for me to look at?  Or places that might have portables in inventory IN AUSTIN to prod and poke?

 

[Macanudo 12798]

On 3/23/2022 at 9:51 AM, Al_4_ISU said:

Do you have a garage?  I have a small one stall garage, but I just open the overhead door and that's plenty of space.

I have a Green Mountain Daniel Boone and it puts off a lot of smoke, especially on startup and then as  it cycles occasionally.  Don't really want everything out there smelling like smoke. 

[Hate 20061]

OK so I did some cursory research on a portable.  But like I said yesterday, I have almost zero knowledge on specifics.  Seeing some of you loading up carloads of pellets made me also wonder about the "running cost?"  Charcoal isn't especially cheap, and I do load up on sales knowing I will use it eventually so that's not a concern, just is there any rule of thumb regarding pellets per hour, or general hopper needs for length cooking time.  My shit would almost all be low and slow over the course of a day at the beach, or floating the river. So for me I m looking at this as something I leave unattended, which sort of makes me nervous, but what's the worst? Unit burns up?
Anyhow I found a couple units that seem like they might work.  How do you think a higher wind environment will affect temperature control? Pellet Burn rate? It's windy at the coast. 

  Camp Chef Pursuit 20 - $500

Pit Boss 260PSP2 - $350 Pit Boss 260PSP2 - $350
 
Any other suggestions for me to look at?  Or places that might have portables in inventory IN AUSTIN to prod and poke?
 

Why would you want to drag that around? Get a regular pellet grill, smoke whatever you want, vacuum seal and freeze what you want to have while camping or whatever, and heat it a pot with hot water until you are ready to eat it.

[horn4life 3749]

4 minutes ago, Hate said:

Why would you want to drag that around? Get a regular pellet grill, smoke whatever you want, vacuum seal and freeze what you want to have while camping or whatever, and heat it a pot with hot water until you are ready to eat it.

I like to go to the coast for like a week at a time, in our trailer.   I did a Month in Port A last year and having a smoker would be awesome.  Plus it's small enough where if I wanted to i could put it in the trailer when we some back to Austin. I plan on doing more beachfront camping this year and if it will fit in my truck bed I will use it more.  I have two full size stick smokers at the house so this is just an extra for camping.  I would probably fire it up at home sometimes, especially if I upgrade to some sort of wifi unit.   

I grill/smoke a shit ton at home. Being able to smoke and fish the surf all day sounds like a nice combo to me.

[Al_4_ISU 12375]

2 hours ago, Macanudo said:

I have a Green Mountain Daniel Boone and it puts off a lot of smoke, especially on startup and then as  it cycles occasionally.  Don't really want everything out there smelling like smoke. 

That's fair.  I don't really care if the things in my garage smell like smoke, but have always found there to be enough ventilation that it doesn't happen.

[horn4life 3749]

The $350 Pit Boss was too small as the hopper was at the back.  I was leaning towards the model with the bottle opener, for obvious reasons.

I have a feeling that it's gonna be hard to actually go see some of the portables in Austin.  I know the capacity is going to be minuscule for the price, but 90% of the time it's just the wife and I.   The small Weber we haul works great, but the coastal winds make it a fast and hot burning fire.  So it's only for grilling.  I definitely need to make sure the sear function is decent on whatever I decide.

[dcbc 14282]

3 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Are you referring to the gravity fed Masterbuilt or Char Griller smokers?  I have the Char Griller 980 and I love it.  I doubt it improves upon the WSM since there are tons of upgrades and resources on how to get great smokes on the WSM.  Maybe cook volume would be an improvement.  I get plenty of smoke on mine though.  You can load wood chunks in the hopper or in the ash pan to get that smoldering smoke.  The hopper seems to burn hotter likely eliminating some that smoldering affect, but like I said you can put chunks in the ash pan to supplement.  Dollar for dollar I don't know if any smoker beats a WSM if you are just talking about single family cooks.  The only advantage I'd say is more accessible cooking surface and the ability to go from 250 to 500 in just a couple of minutes.  I have a weber kettle also and I am not getting rid of it, so I just use mine as a smoker only.

Thanks.  I guess I meant in terms of "clear blue smoke" from less restricted airflow versus choking off the intake vents on a WSM and getting less of that from smoldering coal/chunks.  I've spent a fair amount on upgrades for the WSM (CB Door; Arbor fab coal basket; lid gasket).  So I'm not planning on changing but am kind of curious about what I may be missing tastewise since I realize a fan and probe setup on the gravity smokers will be very precise and easy to change temps.  I know, at a certain point, charcoal flavor comes down to what you buy.

Edited March 24, 2022 by dcbc

[Gene Parmesan 3953]

30 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Thanks.  I guess I meant in terms of "clear blue smoke" from less restricted airflow versus choking off the intake vents on a WSM and getting less of that from smoldering coal/chunks.  I've spent a fair amount on upgrades for the WSM (CB Door; Arbor fab coal basket; lid gasket).  So I'm not planning on changing but am kind of curious about what I may be missing tastewise since I realize a fan and probe setup on the gravity smokers will be very precise and easy to change temps.  I know, at a certain point, charcoal flavor comes down to what you buy.

I don't think you get the clear blue smoke like a stick burner.  It would be something similar to a WSM is my guess.  I don't have a WSM but I have smoked pork butts on my kettle with the slow n' sear and they have similar tastes.  The charcoal hopper is sealed in use so and if you are going low and slow it's effectively choking off the air flow so the coal and wood smolder.

[Sam Lin 3535]

9 hours ago, horn4life said:

 I know the capacity is going to be minuscule for the price, but 90% of the time it's just the wife and I.   The small Weber we haul works great, but the coastal winds make it a fast and hot burning fire.  So it's only for grilling.  I definitely need to make sure the sear function is decent on whatever I decide.

It isn't set and forget, but you might also look at a PK grill. It closes up and has fine control so you can smoke, grills and sears like Weber, while being indestructible for leaving out in the elements or tossing in the back of a truck. You could put a temp controller on it and have 'set and forget' cooking.

[burns_312 353]

I was on team Traeger for close to 25 years. Their original, made in the USA models were the best pellet grills I’ve ever owned, still have one at our lake house actually. But my most recent model had a warping issue with the heat shield and I had multiple grease fires when cooking at higher temps. The last one was just a couple months ago and damn near burned the house down. I unplugged the bastard and told myself I’d never use it again.

After doing some homework, I purchased one of these and have been extremely happy. It can sear the ever living shit out of a steak. Only done a couple of smokes so far, but have been equally as impressed.

https://louisiana-grills.com/collections/founders-premier/products/louisiana-grills-founders-series-premier-1200-pellet-grill


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[horn4life 3749]

5 hours ago, burns_312 said:

I was on team Traeger for close to 25 years. Their original, made in the USA models were the best pellet grills I’ve ever owned, still have one at our lake house actually. But my most recent model had a warping issue with the heat shield and I had multiple grease fires when cooking at higher temps. The last one was just a couple months ago and damn near burned the house down. I unplugged the bastard and told myself I’d never use it again.

After doing some homework, I purchased one of these and have been extremely happy. It can sear the ever living shit out of a steak. Only done a couple of smokes so far, but have been equally as impressed.

https://louisiana-grills.com/collections/founders-premier/products/louisiana-grills-founders-series-premier-1200-pellet-grill


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THANK YOU!

I was looking at a Louisiana Grill when I searched costco for Pellet Grills once I was hitting that $500 mark on a portable.  They had what seemed like a decent unit for $599.  Only $100 more than the portable... But super nice to hear you like the quality.  Louisiana Grills SL 1000 

Does not have WiFi though

[burns_312 353]

THANK YOU!
I was looking at a Louisiana Grill when I searched costco for Pellet Grills once I was hitting that $500 mark on a portable.  They had what seemed like a decent unit for $599.  Only $100 more than the portable... But super nice to hear you like the quality.  Louisiana Grills SL 1000 
Does not have WiFi though

I think you’ll be pleased. I usually don’t even open the dampeners to sear a steak. The strong pull to Louisiana for me was the fact that Joe and Brian Traeger both went to work for Dansons, who makes Louisiana Grills, when they sold Traeger.


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[horn4life 3749]

Yeah I went back and looked at the Costco site and they did have a Traeger listed but it was like a 34 without wifi, and a Traeger 22 for $599 with wifi.

[Pescado_Rojo 19262]

Just got the shipping notification from Recteq. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19262]

The Recteq showed up last Friday, and I’ve used it 3 times in 5 days. Pork tenderloin the first night, because I had one and I just wanted to try it. Burgers for the kids Monday night turned out great. Like cooking burgers over a camp fire, which is one of my favorite ways to do them. Last night made a rack of back ribs and some wings. Super easy to do on a work day  with the app controls on my phone. I ordered a vertical skewer off Amazon, so tonight I’m going to try Chicken Shawarma. 
 

[BearSchlong 8013]

Excellent!! Congratulations.

[VirginiaLonghorn 4727]

Great job, PR.  Happy you got the app running, too.

Now, wear that thing out! 🔥💨 

[BearSchlong 8013]

Just wait til you cook some redfish on it.

[Moby Ric 2058]

Ok I am in the market for a new smoker to get ready for summer and fall.  I have not done too much research but I am looking at the big green egg, or something that is a set it and forget it type that I can control from my phone.  I keep going back and forth and I am done dragging my feet on this.

Price range is really comes down to whatever I want, but I am not looking for something to just spend money on, I want something that is going to cook great.

[Sam Lin 3535]

Not recommending one way or another, just pointing out an Egg or Kamado Joe with a temp controller like Fireboard or Flameboss is also set and forget from phone.

[Moby Ric 2058]

16 minutes ago, Sam Lin said:

Not recommending one way or another, just pointing out an Egg or Kamado Joe with a temp controller like Fireboard or Flameboss is also set and forget from phone.

Well that changes the whole debate for me.  I guess now it comes down to how much meat can I put on at a time.  I will continue to look and report back later.  

I am keenly aware you will all be hanging on the edge of your seat wonder which way old Moby will go.  

[Pescado_Rojo 19262]

The Shawarma was a big hit last night. I didn't get a good plating pic because the kids were eating it as fast as I could cut it, and I was getting a little hangry myself.

[RMac5 1547]

Looks damn good Rojo.

[Sam Lin 3535]

7 hours ago, Moby Ric said:

Well that changes the whole debate for me.  I guess now it comes down to how much meat can I put on at a time.  I will continue to look and report back later.  

I am keenly aware you will all be hanging on the edge of your seat wonder which way old Moby will go.  

You'll likely get more meat on the pellets. I'll post pics of some big Kamado cooks in the kamado thread for you to compare - don't want to take this thread off topic.

[Al_4_ISU 12375]

18 hours ago, Moby Ric said:

Ok I am in the market for a new smoker to get ready for summer and fall.  I have not done too much research but I am looking at the big green egg, or something that is a set it and forget it type that I can control from my phone.  I keep going back and forth and I am done dragging my feet on this.

Price range is really comes down to whatever I want, but I am not looking for something to just spend money on, I want something that is going to cook great.

I've been really happy with my $500 Pit Boss 820.  So much cooking room for the $, and it's never had any struggles/is easy to maintain.

I can't run it off my phone, but I can set and forget for a few hours at a time.

[Updawg 2245]

I've been really happy with my $500 Pit Boss 820.  So much cooking room for the $, and it's never had any struggles/is easy to maintain.
I can't run it off my phone, but I can set and forget for a few hours at a time.

I just bought the 850 the other week. Have done 3 cooks so far and it’s been great. This one has an app that works good. Got it lowes for $599 I think. Thought about a traeger I saw at Costco but this was $200 cheaper and seemed better quality/built


Pescado that swarma looks great, I should get a rotisserie like that. What cut of meat / marinade do you use?

[Pescado_Rojo 19262]

1 hour ago, Updawg said:

I just bought the 850 the other week. Have done 3 cooks so far and it’s been great. This one has an app that works good. Got it lowes for $599 I think. Thought about a traeger I saw at Costco but this was $200 cheaper and seemed better quality/built


Pescado that swarma looks great, I should get a rotisserie like that. What cut of meat / marinade do you use?

That's a mix of a pack each of Chicken thighs and breasts. The marinade is "Shawarma blend" by The Spice Way I ordered off Amazon. I mixed 4 tablespoons of the seasoning with about 1/2 cup olive oil and the juice of 1/2 a lemon and mixed up a slurry. Dumped all the chicken and the slurry into a ziploc and massaged it around until everything was coated. It marinated for about 4 hrs in the fridge before I stacked it on the skewer. Set the grill for 400, and it hit 160 internal in a little over an hour. 

Here's an Amazon link to the skewer I ordered from Amazon. I like this one because the base is turned up enough that it catches a lot of the olive oil and fat as it drips down and you can use a spoon to baste it back over the meat. 

Olamo Vertical Skewer

I can't wait to try Tacos Al Pastor with this thing. Maybe in two weeks when I have the kids again. 

[Hpara759 1777]

2 hours at 180...3 more at 220.... Wrapped in foil when it hit 125 degrees to finish it off.. rested 45 min....used rubs below

Green Mountain Daniel Boone 

It did not sux

 

 

[Jerry Callo 8631]

I ended up with a Green Mountain Grills - Davy Crockett today - for free.  Not sure how I'm going to use it, probably cold smoking.  Maybe tailgating.  I guess I can't bash sawdust pit masters any longer.

[Jerry Callo 8631]

On 4/10/2022 at 4:23 PM, Jerry Callo said:

I ended up with a Green Mountain Grills - Davy Crockett today - for free.  Not sure how I'm going to use it, probably cold smoking.  Maybe tailgating.  I guess I can't bash sawdust pit masters any longer.

Smoked a pork butt on the Davy Crockett yesterday.  It was a smaller butt that I cooked about 5 hours and pulled when internal temp reached 200+.  Probably could have used a couple more hours - its cooked and tastes great, but not as  tender as I'd like.  Same bark and smoke ring that I get from my kamado.  I'm going to chop the meat and finish in a skillet for carnitas anyway.

Pretty good little smoker.  5 hour cook with the initial filled hopper.  Held 275 like the oven.  Wifi control was a little spotty, but the controls are simple.  Probably could have gone another 30 minutes to an hour without refilling the hopper.

[Al_4_ISU 12375]

Corn fed Chickasaw County white tail. Marinated in Italian dressing for 3 days. Hit with a beef rub. 350F for 5 minutes a side.

Heaven

[Macanudo 12798]

On 4/16/2022 at 10:25 AM, Jerry Callo said:

Smoked a pork butt on the Davy Crockett yesterday.  It was a smaller butt that I cooked about 5 hours and pulled when internal temp reached 200+.  Probably could have used a couple more hours - its cooked and tastes great, but not as  tender as I'd like.  Same bark and smoke ring that I get from my kamado.  I'm going to chop the meat and finish in a skillet for carnitas anyway.

Pretty good little smoker.  5 hour cook with the initial filled hopper.  Held 275 like the oven.  Wifi control was a little spotty, but the controls are simple.  Probably could have gone another 30 minutes to an hour without refilling the hopper.

Yeah, next time drop the heat down the 225 or so and cook it for a bit longer.   You'll see a big difference.   

[ohchaucer 1443]

This thread (and a few recent smokes at friends’ houses) have me ready to pull the trigger! I plan to hang on the gas grill for searing etc but do all the smokey stuff on the pellet.

Seems like consensus here is Rec Teq is the way to go. I think 590 would be enough but is the 700 any better or worse (or worth the $300 more).

Anything else I should know or other brands to look at?

[Hate 20061]

[Sam Lin 3535]

Yoder is another brand to consider.

[ohchaucer 1443]

Yoder is another brand to consider.

Those are sweet looking but I’m hoping to stay under $1500 - shoulda mentioned that.

[Shaddie 1631]

ochaucer

I did same awhile ago. Kept my gasser and small charcoal grill. 
Got a Pit Boss cabinet that only smokes. Lots of room if you want to do sizable smoke. Cheap if you decide not for you and very easy clean up. 
 

My best results come from doing 2 hrs at 175 and using a smoke tube. The tube is filled with a mix of pellets and hickory chips. Start it at end and in middle so lots of clean smoke. Usually have to do 3 in about 2 hrs but you will get a recognized smoke flavor. 

[Travis50 4]

I was hoping I could get some advice from surly brethren.  I have a 20 year old three chamber smokemaster offset grill/smoker combo that has a terminal rust wound.  (Would spend up to 4-5k if I needed to) I don't really use vertical smoker part and wanted to replace my grill with one of three options:

1) another sturdy offset grill (jambo, lone star grillz, big hat grills, etc..)

2)ceramic grill

3)pellet grill

My last kiddo will move out this year so I don't really need the larger offset grill but I'm worried the other options would make grilling less flavorful and, frankly, less of a skill (not that I'm awesome but love messing around with the grill)

What say surly?

[Jerry Callo 8631]

Pos rep for 2nd post in 4 years being barbecue related. 

I am partial to my kamado because I like to use it for long, indirect smoking; quick cooks over hot charcoal; or rotisserie cooking over charcoal.  I prefer to have the ability to cook meat directly over coals.

[Sam Lin 3535]

Travis, what will you actually use it for? Grilling? Smoking?

How much work do you want it to be/how easy/turnkey do you want?

How many people will you be cooking for? No kids, just 2-3 at a time?

[Hpara759 1777]

On 4/24/2022 at 5:21 PM, Shaddie said:

 using a smoke tube. The tube is filled with a mix of pellets and hickory chips. 

this guy gets it

[pops 6959]

On 4/26/2022 at 12:05 PM, Travis50 said:

I was hoping I could get some advice from surly brethren.  I have a 20 year old three chamber smokemaster offset grill/smoker combo that has a terminal rust wound.  (Would spend up to 4-5k if I needed to) I don't really use vertical smoker part and wanted to replace my grill with one of three options:

1) another sturdy offset grill (jambo, lone star grillz, big hat grills, etc..)

2)ceramic grill

3)pellet grill

My last kiddo will move out this year so I don't really need the larger offset grill but I'm worried the other options would make grilling less flavorful and, frankly, less of a skill (not that I'm awesome but love messing around with the grill)

What say surly?

Ceramic.

You're used to tending a fire in an offset so even though it is more work than a pellet it will feel like set and forget. 

Plus I think the komodo style is just so versatile. It's a really good smoker... not as good as an offset but in my tests as good as any pellet smoker. It can also get to searing temps that pellets can't get to and makes for a great grill when you just want to grill some shit. Hold a map gas torch on a couple spots for 15 or 20 seconds and in 20 minutes you are at grilling temp. 

With your budget you can get an awesome ceramic that will last a long damn time. 

That's my .02. 

[Travis50 4]

I love the flavor of an offset but 20 years of history say that I sure as hell wont be getting up between midnight to 6 or so.  I've tried all kinds of ways to bridge that gap but none of it involves getting up in the middle of the night.  25 years doing 3-4 night shifts/month as an ER doc have left me with zero desire of destroying my sleep cycle anymore.

Cooking for 2 now but do enjoy fiddling around with my own brisket 2-3 times/year.

Mainly cook steaks, beer can chicken, ribs.  Sometimes brisket. Sometimes tritips. Really just any excuse to fire something up usually.

Seems like ceramic is the way to go.

Long time lurker on most of the boards.  Rare poster (obviously)

Thanks so much, guys.

 

 

 

[luke duke 6361]

Do you realize that you can wake up at 8am and have any cut of meat ready to eat by 6pm? This includes seasoning your meat and getting your pit up to temp.

[Hate 20061]

My briskets are ready to eat in 7 hours.

[Travis50 4]

I've tried many times but just can't seem to get it beyond shoe leather.  Do you use the higher heat and just cook like a regular brisket?  I usually shoot for 225 and takes about 12 hours and then rest it for 3-4 hours.  Help is always appreciated.