Mike Gundy solves college football's fake injury problems but not coronavirus or BLM

[Zavala 1,384]

50 minutes ago, TrashMaster G said:

Anybody who leaves the field on his own can come back any time, just like now.  It would have to be a really severe shoelace break to need assistance off the field.

Clearly, the trainers would be instructed to wait a beat before charging out.  Players would probably have a signal to say they are ok.

This.

Yes, the rule would apply to all players.  Why not?

Gotcha, but do they slow or stop the offense to allow the one shoe player off the field?

[JBJ 3,655]

47 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

I don't like any rule like this that doesn't apply to the O as well.  you can't discern intent in this kind of situation. The O already has enough advantage.

The defense already has the option of a 10-second runoff, which has pretty much killed fake injuries on offense.

Edited November 21, 2018 by JBJ

[conVINCEd 21,469]

2 minutes ago, JBJ said:

The defense already has the option of a 10-second runoff, which has pretty much killed fake injuries on offense.

Maybe adding 10 seconds to the clock if the offense chooses for a fake defensive injury?

[LTtxfan 49,249]

2 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Maybe adding 10 seconds to the clock if the offense chooses for a fake defensive injury?

Interesting..... but probably don't want injured players trying to stay on the field to avoid this situation.....

[Gene Parmesan 4,008]

3 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Maybe adding 10 seconds to the clock if the offense chooses for a fake defensive injury?

Defense isn't faking injuries for clock reasons like one would on offense.  They are faking them to stop pace so they can get their bearings.  Clock changes wouldn't have much affect on that.

[TexArcher 37,977]

So logical that it'll never happen.

[BluTechsan 393]

1 hour ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Tech did this against us 2 weeks ago on our final offensive drive

Yep, Tech has finally joined in on the scam. 

It has been used against their offense for years and it's frustrating as all get out. But until the rules are changed there's really no reason not to do it - especially when teams are employing it against you.

Gundy is right and it's been the obvious solution all along but because it's so simple it'll therefore never happen.

[dcar00 14,269]

22 minutes ago, JBJ said:

The defense already has the option of a 10-second runoff, which has pretty much killed fake injuries on offense.

that is under a certain time in the half/end of game correct?  what Gundy is talking about is all game.

[Dutch 4,474]

[Pato del Muerto 52,524]

Too complicated to suggest sitting out until a change of possession OR a subsequent first down?  

That way, nobody has to sit out more than 4 plays excepting penalties.  The teams win or lose a series, or the rest of the current series, without the injured player. 

[dcar00 14,269]

8 minutes ago, BluTechsan said:

Yep, Tech has finally joined in on the scam. 

It has been used against their offense for years and it's frustrating as all get out. But until the rules are changed there's really no reason not to do it - especially when teams are employing it against you.

Gundy is right and it's been the obvious solution all along but because it's so simple it'll therefore never happen.

I'm waiting to hear from Gundy that it affects the O as well.  we are talking about any claim of injury(fake or real) at any point in the game in which the trainers have to go to the field.  Let's say his key RB gets dinged and needs help.  that guy is gone for the possession.    you are going to have coaches trying to get possibly real injured players to come off the field. If a guy is injured(maybe a bad cramp) and is on the opposite sideline and is trying to get off on his own, will the game stop to substitute as he tries to get off the field, even if the trainers don't go out?  Its not as simple as it seems coming from a coach that wants to run the hurry up.

again I'm in favor of a certain amount of plays. 1 is not enough if you are hurt.  4 downs seems right to me. an entire possession seems excessive.

[conVINCEd 21,469]

Does the rule still apply if the offense isn’t in HUNH mode?  Passing a rule to appease one style of offense seems short-sighted at best.  If an “injury” to a defensive player, which happens multiple times per game with no shenanigans or tomfoolery occurring, is enough to sidetrack your offense, maybe that is a flaw in the offense.

[Gene Parmesan 4,008]

1 minute ago, conVINCEd said:

Does the rule still apply if the offense isn’t in HUNH mode?  Passing a rule to appease one style of offense seems short-sighted at best.  If an “injury” to a defensive player, which happens multiple times per game with no shenanigans or tomfoolery occurring, is enough to sidetrack your offense, maybe that is a flaw in the offense.

I am actually not that far off from you in terms of tired of new rules to benefit the offense.  In thinking about this I don't know how big of a problem we are even talking about.  It happens yeah, but the offenses are still running a shit ton of plays and scoring a shit ton of points, so it only works in certain specific scenarios. 

[Magus Ossis 2,802]

Sit until TO or COP. If you are out of timeouts, no sitting-out is required. If, after leaving the field, your coach wants you back in the game early, he can call timeout and send you on. Teams that are out of timeouts could still abuse the rule the way they can now, but at some point you have to allow players who may have a real injury to be evaluated without penalty. If the ref is convinced you are gaming the system, he is already able to penalize 15 yds (2d offense, DQd) for unsportsmanlike.

[JBJ 3,655]

1 hour ago, dcar00 said:

that is under a certain time in the half/end of game correct?  what Gundy is talking about is all game.

Yes, but that's because the offense's motivation to fake an injury is for a free clock-stoppage, which generally only matters in crunch-time.

The defense's motivation is usually to substitute, change calls, or allow time to line-up, which is harder to punish directly.  It's really more of a delay-of-game tactic, and it works throughout the game.

 

TLDR: Treating them the same really doesn't work because there's a different reason for doing it on offense or defense.

Edited November 21, 2018 by JBJ

[immortal13 4,059]

37 minutes ago, Magus Ossis said:

Sit until TO or COP. If you are out of timeouts, no sitting-out is required. If, after leaving the field, your coach wants you back in the game early, he can call timeout and send you on. Teams that are out of timeouts could still abuse the rule the way they can now, but at some point you have to allow players who may have a real injury to be evaluated without penalty. If the ref is convinced you are gaming the system, he is already able to penalize 15 yds (2d offense, DQd) for unsportsmanlike.

Umm, no

[BluTechsan 393]

35 minutes ago, Magus Ossis said:

Sit until TO or COP. If you are out of timeouts, no sitting-out is required. If, after leaving the field, your coach wants you back in the game early, he can call timeout and send you on. Teams that are out of timeouts could still abuse the rule the way they can now, but at some point you have to allow players who may have a real injury to be evaluated without penalty. If the ref is convinced you are gaming the system, he is already able to penalize 15 yds (2d offense, DQd) for unsportsmanlike.

That's the thing, the ref cannot. Faking or not, the refs can't be asked to make that judgement - opens up a whole other can of worms.

Setting a standard for the number of plays that have to be missed allows for the teams to police themselves and decide if the "delay" is worth it.

[kopp0e 1,135]

Gundy is wise beyond the years of age 40, when he was just a young man...

[po elvis 2,075]

don't like it. players that are legitimately shaken up or hobbled should be able to come back in one or two plays if they can. not worth fixing one problem to create another.

[Magus Ossis 2,802]

From the NCAA rules, unsportsmanlike conduct fouls may currently be called for, among other behaviors, 

Quote

 Any other unsportsmanlike act or actions that delay the game.

EDIT: I am not advocating calling this, but rather claiming that refs could call it if they wished.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Magus Ossis

[gurt 749]

6 minutes ago, po elvis said:

don't like it. players that are legitimately shaken up or hobbled should be able to come back in one or two plays if they can. not worth fixing one problem to create another.

Players not coming out who are injured could also be an issue.  

[DejaVu 39]

10 minutes ago, po elvis said:

don't like it. players that are legitimately shaken up or hobbled should be able to come back in one or two plays if they can. not worth fixing one problem to create another.

Maybe players who are “legitimately shaken up or hobbled” don’t need to come back in after one or two plays against a high tempo offense. If a player is legitimately hurt, how can the training staff make a proper assessment in one play? 

Edited November 21, 2018 by DejaVu

[conVINCEd 21,469]

1 minute ago, gurt said:

Players not coming out who are injured could also be an issue.  

We’d also have to quit playing September day games in Texas, because cramps at the end of those games is a pretty predictable outcome.

[DejaVu 39]

4 minutes ago, gurt said:

Players not coming out who are injured could also be an issue.  

That happens already. You’re not going to fix that with any policy. 

[Nivek 16,945]

Fuck gundy and the refs. He has zero reason to complain after all the bullshit going his way. B12 refs need to be publicly executed and then the ncaa to take over all official related duties.

[MaybeACoordinator 8,349]

I was a weirdo who was an RB on offense and a DT on D, and I once had to perform what we called "the Oscar play." Which was for me to lay around pretending to be hurt to save clock. /CSB

[Extra Anejo 99]

I think the rule doesn't work because the coach can send in his #4 CB for one play and tells him to get a cramp. So big deal he comes out for the rest of the possession. I can see Saban have 12 walkons just for fake cramp duty. Of course I think the defenses have too many rules to contend with anyway. Maybe Gundy can solve Targeting too. 

[Newy25 7,692]

When Strong was coaching here, we did this more than once. Hughes was up for an academy award in 2016.  I’m not sure if we do this now? Nothing specific comes to mind. 

The rule seems pretty straight forward. I’m all for it. 

[MadBurgerMaker 404]

If you don't have the shitbag B12 refs determining whether an injury is fake or not, you then start having situations with, for example, guys getting the wind knocked out of them and being gone for an entire series.  

Edited November 21, 2018 by MadBurgerMaker

[Pato del Muerto 52,524]

Like I said, make them sit until the next first down. Might be 1 play, might be 4 or 5 if penalties are called and accepted.  Then they’d have to get substituted in somehow. That’s the coach’s problem. 

[woohorn 1,131]

Anyone know which of last year's games Gundy is talking about with his video examples?

[gurt 749]

27 minutes ago, DejaVu said:

That happens already. You’re not going to fix that with any policy. 

No, but this policy would only encourage it

[Tex Pete 20,399]

5 hours ago, ztejas said:

OU pulled this horseshit the entire 2nd half in the Cotton Bowl. I'm not putting the Horns up and clapping for someone that's on the field 3 plays later. 

I don't put my horns up and clap for any player that doesn't play for Texas. Fuck 'em.

[hpslugga 4,062]

5 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Personally, I think we’ve passed enough rules that favor the offense in the last 10 years.

Oh cry me a fucking river with that pissy bullshit.

First it’s “oh wah wah wah, they all have to be perfectly still except for one guy who can to sideways when the ball is snapped”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they have to have precisely and exactly 7 guys on the line of scrimmage.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they can’t use slot players to cover up end players.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they can only throw it forward to five players.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they can’t cross the line of scrimmage and throw it forward.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they can’t throw it forward twice even if both passes are behind the LOS.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, their ineligible players can’t cross the LOS when a forward pass does.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they have to declare eligibility via referee announcement or jersey number ranges.”

And THEN, one fucking rule gets passed with the intent to protect both the deliverer and the recipient from fucking brain damage gets passed, and people like you think there’s a goddamn conspiracy to help offenses.

This is the same reaction that was seen when the forward pass was made legal/mainstream. In fact, the best comparison I have to this was when Cornell coach Gil Dobie said “we won the game 13-0. Passing is not football” in response to their 62-13 loss to Dartmouth as the Indians’ QB Andy Oberlander amassed 477 total yards and 6 TD passes.

That kind of reaction is rooted in the same type of bitchassedness that would compel someone to oppose effectively outlaw injury faking. Even soccer has rules against taking a dive (albeit not very well enforced ones).

Personally I wouldn’t go the Gundy route. What I would do is give the refs discretion to discern when or when not is a player really faking an injury, and if it’s determined he is, tack on a 15-yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. That injury faking bullshit has absolutely nothing to do with football. And if the same player is caught doing it twice? Eject his ass.

[Machinator 32,099]

3 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Personally I wouldn’t go the Gundy route. What I would do is give the refs discretion to discern when or when not is a player really faking an injury, and if it’s determined he is, tack on a 15-yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. That injury faking bullshit has absolutely nothing to do with football. And if the same player is caught doing it twice? Eject his ass.

I want absolutely nothing to do with introducing more subjectivity in college football officiating.

[hpslugga 4,062]

10 minutes ago, Machinator said:

I want absolutely nothing to do with introducing more subjectivity in college football officiating.

Wouldn’t be all that hard for them to figure out. It’s not near as difficult as pass interference 

[Machinator 32,099]

3 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Wouldn’t be all that hard for them to figure out. It’s not near as difficult as pass interference 

Hard disagree. At least with PI, there are general visual guidelines officials can use to determine a violation.

If a player legitimately has the wind knocked out of him, and comes back in two plays later with no ill effects, is that something refs are going to be able to consistently determine in real time? I doubt it.

[hpslugga 4,062]

24 minutes ago, Machinator said:

Hard disagree. At least with PI, there are general visual guidelines officials can use to determine a violation.

If a player legitimately has the wind knocked out of him, and comes back in two plays later with no ill effects, is that something refs are going to be able to consistently determine in real time? I doubt it.

That’s not how the fake ones go down tho. They’re obvious. They look over to the sideline for a play call then they just fall. It’s a very wouldn’t-you-know-who-won-the-pony tactic.

[FizzleFish 137]

45 minutes ago, Machinator said:

I want absolutely nothing to do with introducing more subjectivity in college football officiating.

Agree

[conVINCEd 21,469]

33 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Oh cry me a fucking river with that pissy bullshit.

First it’s “oh wah wah wah, they all have to be perfectly still except for one guy who can to sideways when the ball is snapped”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they have to have precisely and exactly 7 guys on the line of scrimmage.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they can’t use slot players to cover up end players.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they can only throw it forward to five players.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they can’t cross the line of scrimmage and throw it forward.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they can’t throw it forward twice even if both passes are behind the LOS.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, their ineligible players can’t cross the LOS when a forward pass does.”

Then it’s “oh wah wah wah, they have to declare eligibility via referee announcement or jersey number ranges.”

And THEN, one fucking rule gets passed with the intent to protect both the deliverer and the recipient from fucking brain damage gets passed, and people like you think there’s a goddamn conspiracy to help offenses.

This is the same reaction that was seen when the forward pass was made legal/mainstream. In fact, the best comparison I have to this was when Cornell coach Gil Dobie said “we won the game 13-0. Passing is not football” in response to their 62-13 loss to Dartmouth as the Indians’ QB Andy Oberlander amassed 477 total yards and 6 TD passes.

That kind of reaction is rooted in the same type of bitchassedness that would compel someone to oppose effectively outlaw injury faking. Even soccer has rules against taking a dive (albeit not very well enforced ones).

Personally I wouldn’t go the Gundy route. What I would do is give the refs discretion to discern when or when not is a player really faking an injury, and if it’s determined he is, tack on a 15-yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. That injury faking bullshit has absolutely nothing to do with football. And if the same player is caught doing it twice? Eject his ass.

If my board memory is accurate you are a coach, right?  I simply have seen a shift in the last 10-15 years where every rule change has favored the offense.  I like good defense, and I feel it is being legislated out of the game.  If I could change one rule in football, it would be that every 3-4 snaps the defense is allowed to substitute players regardless of what the offense is doing.  You stop the clock and let the defense swap players if they want to.  Why should the offense get to substitute whenever they want to, but the defense is only allowed to substitute when the offense chooses to? 

Good offense should consist of more than trying to snap the ball as quickly as possible and hopefully catching the defense slightly out of alignment due to the fact that they only have 5 seconds to line up.  

[taybo20 2,877]

6 hours ago, Gene Parmesan said:

I'm pretty sure you can find plenty of times an OSU has done it as well. 

Strengthens Gundy’s point 

[Bullneck 19,168]

"He made this suggestion to the Big 12 coordinator of officials"

Thinking.  Thinking.  Thinking.  The same guys who appear to be the worst people at their jobs in history of jobs?

 

[Hamttx 419]

Chill, just wait until it happens to Saban and Alabama and it somehow causes them to lose in some way.

Rest assured that we will form a committee, brainstorm the issue at hand. And then get a fix implemented within a day or two. Of course from a completely impartial committee made up of very impartial former SEC coaches, President’s and generally good folks.

Then those at ESPU will tell us how great the fix is on the following 6:00 Sportscenter. Followed by Desmond, Kirk, Reece and Pollock. Who will certify and help us “breakdown” the new rule on the next segment of Gameday. Brought to you by Home Depot and the SEC. 

 

[mulletpelini 5,212]

9 hours ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

What if the team is out of timeouts?

Bob Hodges cuts off a vingor

Spoiler

 

[Disco Missile 456]

[dcar00 14,269]

8 hours ago, Machinator said:

I want absolutely nothing to do with introducing more subjectivity in college football officiating.

yes this.  just make the player stay off the field O or D for 4 plays for any injury that needs clock stoppage.

[DejaVu 39]

9 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Good offense should consist of more than trying to snap the ball as quickly as possible and hopefully catching the defense slightly out of alignment due to the fact that they only have 5 seconds to line up.  

Every offense consists of trying to catch the defense slightly out of alignment unless you’re talking about one that features Bronco Nagurski taking handoff after handoff right up the middle. The high tempo offense is one strategy for doing so. 

[Richard Kimball 1,495]

Referees are not medical staff and should not be the people who determine whether an injury is real or fake. That opens up a whole can of worms about medical liability, and we're already dealing with coaches that will put players out on the field that should be in concussion protocol. 

It's difficult to enforce because legitimate concern for player safety is being used to game the outcome. Making a player stay out for four plays or until the end of the possession (whichever comes first) would be a good way to keep the referees from assuming medical liability trying to diagnose an injury on the field. The referees don't have to keep track of the player who left. If the team allows the player to return before four plays are over, the player misses the first half of the next game. Believe me, the other schools would notify the conference of violations, as they'd look for them during game reviews. 

 

[DejaVu 39]

@Richard Kimball I feel like your argument is reasonable and takes the subjectivity out of the decision making process. 

[hpslugga 4,062]

11 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

If my board memory is accurate you are a coach, right?  I simply have seen a shift in the last 10-15 years where every rule change has favored the offense.

And if you were to count them all on one hand, you’d have superfluous fingers. That’s the point: it’s a very minor amount of “changes” and you guys pitch a shitfit every time it happens and it’s embarrassing to watch.

And you completely missed the point of what I said. I posted that in a broader historical perspective. Over the years, offenses kept getting the short end of the stick even when they were introduced some courtesy. 

“Ok, you can throw the ball but it’s a turnover if it’s incomplete.”

“Ok you can throw the ball, just not to everyone.” 

Those changes are far more restrictive to what an offense should be able to do vs.whatever changes that you feel are restrictive to a defense.

What has never changed is defensive players, coaches, and fans who prefer defensive-oriented games is always find something to bitch about. 

“The pass isn’t real football”

”Chuck and Duck”

”The no-huddle isn’t fair”

and my favorite 

“let’s make a rule that prohibits the offense from speeding up the game.”

Quote

I like good defense, and I feel it is being legislated out of the game.

Defense isn’t being “legislated out of the game.” The fact is that offenses have evolved and defenses haven’t kept up.

Quote

Why should the offense get to substitute whenever they want to, but the defense is only allowed to substitute when the offense chooses to? 

The rule is that the offense can snap the ball whenever they want if they don’t sub where as they have to wait until the substituting defender gets in his position stance if said substitution is in response to an offensive sub. There is no rule in football that says a defense cannot sub unless the offense does. Absolutely none whatsoever.

Quote

Good offense should consist of more than trying to snap the ball as quickly as possible and hopefully catching the defense slightly out of alignment due to the fact that they only have 5 seconds to line up.  

It does consist of more than that. Merely operating at a frantic pace doesn’t make an offense good. Just look at some of the rankings and you’ll see some pretty fast-paced ones at the bottom of the list. It’s true that the better ones are too, but that’s not the only aspect that makes them good/elite. That also has to do with talent, execution, coaching/scheme, etc.

Edited November 22, 2018 by hpslugga