TRAVEL: Points, Miles, Discounts, Tips, Advice & Questions

[texhorn 351]

Heads up for CSR and CSP card carriers.  Chase just announced some new temp bonus points for a few months.  Also looks like gas stations and grocery will eat into your $300 travel credit since I assume a bunch of us aren't using theirs.  I already soaked mine up earlier this year.
 

• Earn 5x Ultimate Rewards points with Instacart, on up to $3,000 of spending
• Earn 5x Ultimate Rewards points at gas stations, on up to $1,500 of spending
• Earn 10x Ultimate Rewards points with select streaming services, on up to $1,500 of spending
• Receive up to $50 in statement credits towards an Instacart Express membership

Downgraded to CSP since I didn’t see the $300 credit happening. Fail on my part.

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2738]

We got a voucher from SW after they misplaced our son’s car seat on a flight. Had to use a loaner for a few days and I had to go back to the terminal once our seat arrived.

I didn’t look at it closely but the voucher is in his name. He’s 7. WTF is he going to do with a voucher?
I asked SW to transfer it to a parent but they declined.
Any of you had experiences with something like this?

[conVINCEd 21469]

1 hour ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

We got a voucher from SW after they misplaced our son’s car seat on a flight. Had to use a loaner for a few days and I had to go back to the terminal once our seat arrived.

I didn’t look at it closely but the voucher is in his name. He’s 7. WTF is he going to do with a voucher?
I asked SW to transfer it to a parent but they declined.
Any of you had experiences with something like this?

What you have is the start of a really good comedy movie.

[thunderlounge 7902]

2 hours ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

We got a voucher from SW after they misplaced our son’s car seat on a flight. Had to use a loaner for a few days and I had to go back to the terminal once our seat arrived.

I didn’t look at it closely but the voucher is in his name. He’s 7. WTF is he going to do with a voucher?
I asked SW to transfer it to a parent but they declined.
Any of you had experiences with something like this?

 

Is there a code on it? If so,  name shouldn’t matter. 

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2738]

It does have a code. I’ll give that a go.
Thanks.

[midtown 3346]

Amex plat has a nice offer. Spend $100 at Dell. Com. $100 credit. And in case your bad at math. Basically a free 100 item sans tax. I just bought my son some gaming headphones

[Sam Lin 3560]

Just used it to order a baller mouse. $120 down to 20 after the credit. Thanks!

[Chewbacca 7780]

Just used it to order a baller mouse. $120 down to 20 after the credit. Thanks!

I know way more about gaming headphones, keyboards and mice (is it still mice when you're talking about the computer variant?) than i ever wanted. Steel Series makes some good shit.

My youngest just saved up his lawn mowing money to buy a $250 racing wheel and pedals for racing games. It's pretty bad ass.

[Sam Lin 3560]

[threadjack]

I did order a Steelseries, but I have the opposite opinion of them. I'm utterly unimpressed with their quality.

 

Have 2 friends who have Steelseries mice <2yr old who have the "double-clicking" problem. They didn't have difficulty getting support to replace them, but many others on forums have reported Steelseries support sucks and is like pulling teeth. (That said, I've had 2 Razer mice have the same "double-clicking" issue, so it's not just a Steelseries problem. And in the meantime I have a couple 10yr old generic eBay 'gaming' mice that have zero issues.)

 

The "keyboard by Steelseries" on my MSI laptop is utter trash, key started popping out in the first month of ownership, and not even one of the keys that's used when I game! The N key was first, and it frequently pops out now. The V key was fairly recent, at about 6mo of ownership. There was zero abuse (and zero heavy use!) to these keys, just occasional typing of emails. I have a support ticket open to get the keyboard replaced, but being stuck in another country due to Covid, I'm not sure when that'll happen.

[/now back to your original thread]

[Tailgate 3022]

AA mileage is horse shit. Why let it expire after 18 months and force members to buy bull shit to keep it going? I need to redeem my mileage for tickets and deal with the delayed travel and GTFO of this clown show. SWA FTW.

[bluto 4934]

AA mileage is horse shit. Why let it expire after 18 months and force members to buy bull shit to keep it going? I need to redeem my mileage for tickets and deal with the delayed travel and GTFO of this clown show. SWA FTW.

Do what I do, buy a mag sub to “parents magazine” (it’s the cheapest thing I’ve found) and have it sent to a friends house to annoy them, especially if it’s a bachelor or couple who don’t want kids.

[Firemans4Horn 18118]

3 hours ago, Tailgate said:

AA mileage is horse shit. Why let it expire after 18 months and force members to buy bull shit to keep it going? I need to redeem my mileage for tickets and deal with the delayed travel and GTFO of this clown show. SWA FTW.

💯

the expiring miles game is such a fucking beating by AA. Flew SWA 95% of the time for work and switched to them full time for leisure because they don’t play all the nickel and dime games. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Firemans4Horn

[Sam Lin 3560]

I also buy the cheapest magazine subscription to renew my miles. Have discovered some really shitty magazines this way.

[thunderlounge 7902]

Sounds like some of y’all need to fly a little more frequently. 

[wild_turkey 3177]

Any recommendations on cards to accumulate travel points while travel opportunities are scarce? I have a CSR that I'm going to cancel before the $550 fee comes up in a couple months. I don't really want perks like lounge access or Uber or Lyft credits right now. I'd like to build some points back up for whenever I can finally use them freely. 

I've never done anything Amex so I was considering the Amex Gold card with a 75,000 mile signup bonus and a $250 annual fee. Seems like the points can be easily transferred to airline or hotel partners.

Anything else I should be looking at?

[midtown 3346]

33 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

I have a CSR that I'm going to cancel before the $550 fee comes up in a couple months

Doing the same but downgrading until I can use all my points up or Ill just transfer them all to SWA.  I get a lot of redundancy with the AMEX Plat anyway.   I haven't seen any really great offers but 75k on the gold is about the best you can do.

Edited September 4, 2020 by midtown

[mycox 582]

I'm in the same situation. Think I'm going to cancel my sapphire reserve even though I need to renew my global entry next year. There are many other cards that will recoup that cost.

The Chase Freedom Unlimited is upgrading there rewards program.
5% travel
3% dining
still 1.5% on everything else.

The only downside is I think you have to use the Chase portal for travel. The portal doesn't always have the best deals and of course won't include Airbnb, hotels, and airlines not on their portal.

[midtown 3346]

45 minutes ago, mycox said:

I need to renew my global entry next year.

I think I have at least 3 cards that reimburse.   The only benefit was I used the other two to get my kids GE. 

[4th and 5 4915]

Sapphire Reserve has the $300 travel credit. Plus they had $120 in Door Dash. I just order with the app and pick up. I ate $120 in free BBQ.

It's not a card I would cancel

[wild_turkey 3177]

19 minutes ago, 4th and 5 said:

Sapphire Reserve has the $300 travel credit. Plus they had $120 in Door Dash. I just order with the app and pick up. I ate $120 in free BBQ.

It's not a card I would cancel

The $300 travel credit is easy to use, so that leaves $250 worth of annual fee that I need to get value out of.

I don't use Door Dash and don't have much interest in starting. I don't want a credit card that I need to start using a service I don't care for just to justify the card's AF. I'm also under the impression the Door Dash credit is $120 total over 2 years from 2020-2021. So even if I max that out, the benefit is limited moving forward.

Lyft Pink - meh, especially during Covid when I'm avoiding ride share as much as possible

Priority Pass lounge access - I've been completely underwhelmed with them during the ~3 years I've had the card. My home airport is DFW and the only lounge is The Club in terminal D. It's okay to get a couple free drinks if I arrive early for an international flight, but that's not very often and I'm not having much international travel anytime soon.

So beyond the $300 travel credit, I'm struggling to find ways to justify that extra $250 right now. I can always get it back later, but they increased the AF by $100 and added 2 features that aren't really appealing to me.

Chase Ultimate Rewards are pretty easy to use and I enjoy that, but I can still get that with a different Chase card without the $550 AF.

[midtown 3346]

49 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

Door Dash credit is $120 total over 2 years from 2020-2021.

This is correct.  Plus free delivery but that's not adding up to $550

[Redneck Mutha 8007]

Dumb question that may have been answered way upthread:

I currently have the SWA Plus Card.  If I want to upgrade to the SWA Priority Card, but want to earn the bonus, I know I need to close my current card and wait a certain amount of time before re-applying.  How long do I need to wait between closing my original card to applying for the upgraded card?

Additionally, if I apply early 2021 for the Priority card and earn that bonus, can I then apply for one of the SWA Business cards and earn additional bonus that could get me to the Companion Pass level for remainder of 2021/2022?

[midtown 3346]

26 minutes ago, Redneck Mutha said:

How long do I need to wait between closing my original card to applying for the upgraded card?

Two years.   Familiarize yourself with the Chase 5/24 rule

[Redneck Mutha 8007]

20 hours ago, midtown said:

Two years.   Familiarize yourself with the Chase 5/24 rule

I guess I wasn't clear in my explanation.  I am OK in regard to 5/24.  And I've had my original SWA card for several years, well over the 2 years it would be between receiving another bonus for within that family.  But I know in order to receive a bonus under a different SWA personal card, you cannot currently be a SWA personal card holder.

So my question is, how long after I cancel my original card do I need to wait to reapply?  It's not another two years, is it?  I did a similar transition from a regular Chase Sapphire to a CSP a while back and had to cancel the first one, wait for a period of time (several weeks I think) before applying for the second one to receive the bonus.

[midtown 3346]

1 hour ago, Redneck Mutha said:

It's not another two years, is it? 

I believe it is mostly.  I know there was the AA Citi card that stated that you couldn't have received the bonus in the last 36 months so they vary apparently. 

[4th and 5 4915]

The wait applies to a bonus for the same card, not a different one. 

[midtown 3346]

The wait applies to a bonus for the same card, not a different one. 

I thought it was by issuer. But Id like to know. I know that I got 60k AA from citi then 6 mos later another 40k AA from Barclay.

[wild_turkey 3177]

On 9/4/2020 at 10:55 AM, wild_turkey said:

I've never done anything Amex so I was considering the Amex Gold card with a 75,000 mile signup bonus and a $250 annual fee. Seems like the points can be easily transferred to airline or hotel partners.

I ended up doing this card. For anyone interested, The Points Guy now has a CardMatch feature where you can do a soft credit pull and try to find targeted offers for yourself. The advertised signup bonus for the Amex Gold is currently 35,000 miles. Using their CardMatch tool, I was able to get a "targeted" offer for 75,000 miles signup bonus for the same card. Not sure if this is useful information here or old news.

https://thepointsguy.com/cardmatch/?tid=post

[thunderlounge 7902]

On 9/7/2020 at 7:22 AM, Redneck Mutha said:

So my question is, how long after I cancel my original card do I need to wait to reapply?  It's not another two years, is it?  I did a similar transition from a regular Chase Sapphire to a CSP a while back and had to cancel the first one, wait for a period of time (several weeks I think) before applying for the second one to receive the bonus.

You’ll want to wait 30 days from closing the original card before applying again. So day 31+. 
 

 

[midtown 3346]

I'm trying to understand.  So I can apply for a regular SWA card.  Get the bonus.  Let's say 50k.  Turn around and close it, wait 31 days, and then open the next tier SWA card, get the bonus.  Lets say 60k.  Now not only have I gotten 110k points I've qualified for the companion pass.   That does sound too good to be true.

[BurntOrange&White 39940]

What are Chase Saphhire Preferred perks right now? Worth getting at the moment? Plan to book a honeymoon with it

[Redneck Mutha 8007]

1 hour ago, midtown said:

I'm trying to understand.  So I can apply for a regular SWA card.  Get the bonus.  Let's say 50k.  Turn around and close it, wait 31 days, and then open the next tier SWA card, get the bonus.  Lets say 60k.  Now not only have I gotten 110k points I've qualified for the companion pass.   That does sound too good to be true.

My understanding is you can apply for a SWA personal card, and get the bonus. Then apply for a business card, get a separate bonus because they consider it a separate family of card. But you have to wait 2 years before you can earn another bonus on either. 

So after 2 years, you can cancel the personal card, wait 31 days, reapply, get another bonus. Same with business. 

My situation is, I already had my card for a few years and had earned the bonus on it more than 2 years ago, so I just need to cancel, wait 31 days, and reapply to get a bonus.  Since I don't have a business card, I can apply and get bonus for that one too. As long as I'm good on the 5/24.

[midtown 3346]

15 minutes ago, Redneck Mutha said:

So after 2 years, you can cancel the personal card, wait 31 days, reapply, get another bonus. Same with business. 

Ok.  Thanks for clarifying.  That makes more sense. 

[thunderlounge 7902]

On 9/8/2020 at 10:46 AM, Redneck Mutha said:

My understanding is you can apply for a SWA personal card, and get the bonus. Then apply for a business card, get a separate bonus because they consider it a separate family of card. But you have to wait 2 years before you can earn another bonus on either. 

So after 2 years, you can cancel the personal card, wait 31 days, reapply, get another bonus. Same with business. 

My situation is, I already had my card for a few years and had earned the bonus on it more than 2 years ago, so I just need to cancel, wait 31 days, and reapply to get a bonus.  Since I don't have a business card, I can apply and get bonus for that one too. As long as I'm good on the 5/24.

This is correct for Chase. Others, YMMV. 
 

IIRC, amex is “lifetime” for a bonus. Chase, it depends on the card. Sapphire line? 48 months. 
 

Also for Chase, business cards DO NOT count against 5/24 (unless another issuer reports it on your personal report. However, even for a Chase business card you MUST be under 5/24 (or 2/30 days, 3/90 days, etc.)

[midtown 3346]

So since you guys seem to understand this.  

Chase Sapphire Preferred is offering 80,000 pts.  

I've had the CSR since 9/2016.  I am 4/24 on Chase so I have an open slot.    Are you guys saying I can transfer all my points to SWA, then completely cancel my CSR.  Wait 30 days.  Open the CSP and get the 80k?

 

 

[Biff Tannen 45697]

1 hour ago, midtown said:

So since you guys seem to understand this.  

Chase Sapphire Preferred is offering 80,000 pts.  

I've had the CSR since 9/2016.  I am 4/24 on Chase so I have an open slot.    Are you guys saying I can transfer all my points to SWA, then completely cancel my CSR.  Wait 30 days.  Open the CSP and get the 80k?

 

 

I would like to know the answer to this also. 

[HRSchenker 2271]

Transfer your points to Freedom or Freedom Unlimited instead.

[Ignatius 4017]

On 8/6/2020 at 12:35 AM, Firemans4Horn said:

💯

the expiring miles game is such a fucking beating by AA. Flew SWA 95% of the time for work and switched to them full time for leisure because they don’t play all the nickel and dime games. 

Join the AA dining club; you sign up, there’s a list of eligible restaurants/bars and you get points for spending anything there - tax and alcohol count. Most of the time they’ll offer like 3-5K bonus points if you spend $30 3 times in the first 30 days. Regardless, you can order an iced tea and extend your miles for 18 months....

[Ignatius 4017]

On 9/7/2020 at 7:15 PM, midtown said:

On 9/7/2020 at 4:10 PM, 4th and 5 said:

The wait applies to a bonus for the same card, not a different one. 

I thought it was by issuer. But Id like to know. I know that I got 60k AA from citi then 6 mos later another 40k AA from Barclay.

My extensive experience with Citi is that the limit only applies to that particular card. Additionally, you can get the business and personal version of the card and your spouse can get both as well....

[Ignatius 4017]

On 9/17/2020 at 5:43 PM, midtown said:

So since you guys seem to understand this.  

Chase Sapphire Preferred is offering 80,000 pts.  

I've had the CSR since 9/2016.  I am 4/24 on Chase so I have an open slot.    Are you guys saying I can transfer all my points to SWA, then completely cancel my CSR.  Wait 30 days.  Open the CSP and get the 80k?

 

 

You won’t violate 5/24 this way, though there’s a chance they’ll want to talk to you and depending on who you get you might get shot down. If you don’t have a long history of cycling Chase cards you’re probably fine; in the end, they want that interchange revenue...

[thunderlounge 7902]

On 9/17/2020 at 4:43 PM, midtown said:

So since you guys seem to understand this.  

Chase Sapphire Preferred is offering 80,000 pts.  

I've had the CSR since 9/2016.  I am 4/24 on Chase so I have an open slot.    Are you guys saying I can transfer all my points to SWA, then completely cancel my CSR.  Wait 30 days.  Open the CSP and get the 80k?

 

 

 

Hopefully you haven't done anything yet. You're going about it all wrong. More below after the multi-quote...

 

 

On 9/18/2020 at 6:39 PM, HRSchenker said:

Transfer your points to Freedom or Freedom Unlimited instead.

 

This is part of the game, absolutely.

 

On 9/18/2020 at 6:49 PM, Ignatius said:

Join the AA dining club; you sign up, there’s a list of eligible restaurants/bars and you get points for spending anything there - tax and alcohol count. Most of the time they’ll offer like 3-5K bonus points if you spend $30 3 times in the first 30 days. Regardless, you can order an iced tea and extend your miles for 18 months....

 

If you're extending AA miles, this is a useful trick.

 

 

 

Now, back to midtown's attempted acquisition of points...

 

First, do you have a Freedom or Freedom Unlimited? If so, transfer your points from the CSR to the Freedom/Freedom Unlimited. Perceived value is bullshit. Points are points. If you have 100k Chase UR points, you got 100k Chase UR points. The card dictates any additional perks. For now, you're not worried about that bullshit. The total is what counts.

You move your points to the F/FU card. Close the CSR. Wait 30 days, then on day 31+ (I like to wait 45 days just to be safe, but YMMV) apply for the CSP and get your bonus.

Then once you have your new card, move all your points to the CSP.

 

If you do not have a Freedom or Freedom Unlimited...

a) why the fuck not?

b) Get one. Use your 5th slot for that, then wait for another slot to open up. Not to the day! Remember, most reports show month/year it was opened and not the day. If you are technically good on September 16th, you may have to wait until October 1 to apply.

c) Once you have one, do the dance above and move your points.

 

 

Why????

Chase points aren't going anywhere. Southwest... well, you could lose those potentially. Not to mention if you end up needing them somewhere else, you're fucked. You aren't moving them back.

If you need to get one of the cards, go for the Freedom Unlimited. They've added a few new tiers to the card (like 3pts/$ for dining... just like the CSR) which means more points to push over to the new CSP and then over to whatever partner.

 

 

[midtown 3346]

@thunderlounge

 

I have done nothing but my annual fee on the CSR is Oct 1.  So I've got to act fast.  

I do not have Chase Freedom.  The only other Chase card I have it SWA RR.   We are not talking about a ton of pts.  26k right now.   I have 92k SWA so I figured I could combine and use to take my kids to Belize next summer or for Christmas.  Fingers crossed.

I am 4/24 but that's only because I'm counting the fact that I am an authorized user on my moms card because I make purchases for her.   I've seen differing views if that qualifies as one of the 5.  That one drops on 11/20 and then I have another drop on 12/20.  

I'm concerned the 80k CSP won't be available by December so I don't' want to use a slot on the Freedom unless I have to. 

[thunderlounge 7902]

1 hour ago, midtown said:

@thunderlounge

 

I have done nothing but my annual fee on the CSR is Oct 1.  So I've got to act fast.  

I do not have Chase Freedom.  The only other Chase card I have it SWA RR.   We are not talking about a ton of pts.  26k right now.   I have 92k SWA so I figured I could combine and use to take my kids to Belize next summer or for Christmas.  Fingers crossed.

I am 4/24 but that's only because I'm counting the fact that I am an authorized user on my moms card because I make purchases for her.   I've seen differing views if that qualifies as one of the 5.  That one drops on 11/20 and then I have another drop on 12/20.  

I'm concerned the 80k CSP won't be available by December so I don't' want to use a slot on the Freedom unless I have to. 

 

 

Something I didn't think about last night, but have you had the CSR for 48 months? Meaning, on your 10/1 anniversary date, will the card have been open for at least 48 months, and starting month 49 of its life or higher?

 

If not, you're fucked. There will be no CSP bonus whatsoever until it's been 48+ months since you opened the CSR. And Chase won't bend on that one (or much of anything else.)

If this is the case, to avoid the AF of the CSR, call them up and ask for a product change from the CSR to CSP.

Second, apply for the Freedom Unlimited.

Now here's a few fun things. You may not use the CSP much. FU is better on dining as it's 3pt/$ where the CSP is 2pt/$. Plus there is 3pt/$ for drugstores too, if applicable.

So now you'll put your dining on the FU, and the CSP pretty much becomes the travel card, as that is its only spending category that is more than the FU (by 1/2pt).

When you finally about 15 days before you hit the 4yr anniversary of opening the CSR, you close your CSP (after transferring all points to FU), wait 31+ days, and apply for the CSP outright. Or do that at any time after that, if they are being tight with the bonus points and you want to wait it out.

The good thing about the downgrade is that all the account history follows. So it won't be a new account, kill a 5/24 slot, trigger a hard pull, etc.

 

Now, if you're good on the 48 month thing (or anyone else finds themselves in this situation) then you're in business. You would first do a product change on the CSR, but changing it into a Freedom Unlimited instead. You keep your chase points, then get more.

Then you wait 31+ days and apply for the CSP outright. Once approved and everything is set up, you can move the points from the FU to the CSP.

 

 

If the only spending the CSP is good for over the FU is for travel related purchases (not fuel), is it worth having at all?

 

I think it is, honestly. OK, the purchases on it won't be as frequent, but even with a $95 AF it's still pretty decent. Where it's nice is in the additional perks. First the travel partners. Second, the travel insurance. It's a 12hr kick in and not a 6hr like the CSR, but it's still pretty decent insurance. If you took just 1 trip a year and would have bought similar coverage, you would be at or above the AF. That may or may not hold value for you, but it does for me. If you get in a situation and it kicks in, just put the extra expenses on the card. Once you file the claim, they'll credit your card. That part is pretty easy, getting through the claim can be like any other type of claim. A bit of a hassle, but you'll get there without too many bruises.

 

 

[midtown 3346]

1 hour ago, thunderlounge said:

If this is the case, to avoid the AF of the CSR, call them up and ask for a product change from the CSR to CSP.

I am not fucked. I show my first charge on my CSR on 9/24/2016.  My first annual fee was 10/4/2016.   Now I didn't get the bonus for a few months after that due to the spend requirement which I think was $5k.    But you are saying that I can simply product change to the CSP and do the spend and get the 80k?   Or is it better to open product change to Freedom then wait the 31 days and go at the CSP?

Really appreciate the input.

[Spankytoes 1743]

https://www.southwest.com/rapidrewards/promotion?f=242bbun6x&clk=5141034&cbid=5141034

It’s something 

[thunderlounge 7902]

On 9/22/2020 at 1:11 PM, midtown said:

I am not fucked. I show my first charge on my CSR on 9/24/2016.  My first annual fee was 10/4/2016.   Now I didn't get the bonus for a few months after that due to the spend requirement which I think was $5k.    But you are saying that I can simply product change to the CSP and do the spend and get the 80k?   Or is it better to open product change to Freedom then wait the 31 days and go at the CSP?

Really appreciate the input.

 

Awesome. You're not fucked out yet!

So we have a september opening. Good there.

Next question is, when did you get your bonus? I'll have to double check, and will report back if its different than this, but I think the date goes by bonus awarded, and not the account date. Assuming that to be the case:

 

a) call chase and do a product change (downgrade) to Freedom Unlimited in the next few days

b) wait out the bonus anniversary

c) apply for CSP a couple days later

 

If the bonus goes back to 60k points between now and then, at least you're still getting UR points.

[midtown 3346]

12 minutes ago, thunderlounge said:

b) wait out the bonus anniversary

Finding this date might be more difficult.   I went back and due to some house related expenses aka $3k for roofing supplies I hit the 5k spend  by 10/9/16 so if I can make it 3 wks I should be good..   

Thanks you for the info. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by midtown

[thunderlounge 7902]

It should show up on the statement where you met the spend. If there isn’t a date specific to the points, then go by the statement date. Guessing it would be the Nov or Dec statement.

[midtown 3346]

Good call.  On my first statement.  Which closed on 10/17/16.

0 to start and ending of 105,000 pts.

So for good measure Ill wait until 10/17.   Then once that is done I can apply for the Capital one venture card which is doing 100,000

Edited September 23, 2020 by midtown

[thunderlounge 7902]

Is there a date for the big bonus? If not, go by the statement date.

Anyway, get with Chase quick and product change to the Freedom Unlimited. You won’t get the current bonus for it, but a mere 20k points isn’t what you’re after. 
 

Then set a reminder on your phone. The date will be the later one between 31 days from the product change, or the day after the statement closed (or bonus points if there is a specific date for it). Again, whichever date is later of the two.