Things not going well in France

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

Wait, I thought with their high tax rate the government provides everything you could possibly want? 

[bolverk 29399]

5 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

The WSJ has a great editorial today about the pushback from ordinary people around the world against the carbon tax boondoggle. Macron is the embodiment of out of touch global elite progressive condescension. His comment to small town and rural French to wait for better public transit and to frigging carpool to deal with his taxes is the 21st century version of Marie Atoinette’s let them eat cake. If the Democrats try to impose a carbon tax here, I’d hope our response would be as voiceferous as the French. I love seeing Eurosceptic, right-wing populism gaining in Europe.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-global-carbon-tax-revolt-1543880507

This is by no means a "right-wing" revolt and has little to do with the EU.

The folks who are protesting are doing so because they are poor, and they want MORE government subsidies to prop up their dying rural towns, whose economies are largely based on older industries and agriculture, and an INCREASE in the minimum wage on top of lowering the proposed fuel tax which only amounted to centimes.

French presidents of all political stripes (Chirac-conservative, Sarkozy-conservative, Hollande-socialist, Macron-moderate) have been trying to make major reforms to the labor market, underlying economy, and tax structure of France since the 1990s. But they have all inevitably had to back off to varying degrees due to mass protests. Street protests and strikes are a way of life in France - probably more than any other country on the planet - and they have long kept the elite in check or paralyzed desperately needed reforms (depending on your perspective).

By the way, I can guarantee that French farmers are quite happy and grateful for the protections their products receive in the EU's common market.

You Republicans/conservatives who are normally proponents of:

• fee-based government services (gas tax for maintaining a road network and promoting greater fuel efficiency)
• labor reforms (opposition to even the concept of a minimum wage and worker protections), and
• letting the market pick the winners and losers (allow inefficient industries to die and let people to "vote with their feet" by choosing a better place to live)

don't really seem to have a consistent political or economic philosophy at all. Do not conflate your own climate skepticism and anti-European feelings with what the majority of the protesters are actually demanding.

This goes to the core of what is happening all over the post-industrial West and reflects the on-going shift from a natural resource-based industrial economy to one based on information and services. Right now, the losers in this transition (rural towns with low educational attainment levels) are suffering across the US and Europe. Anyone with any intellectual honestly isn't sure what the appropriate policy response should be.

Clearly, the invisible hand of the free-market would tell those "gros ploucs" from rural France to go get fucked, but do we really want to go back to the days of nationalized industries and closed economies (which some of you former conservatives seem to be implying)?

Because, if you're a proponent of those, you have abandoned one of the fundamental pillars of modern right-wing political thinking: a free-market, laissez-faire economy.

[Buzzrock 14871]

We suck at football AND basketball, gotta stay in the news somehow...

[Zavala 1384]

 

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Zavala

[FondrenRoad 4378]

43 minutes ago, Zavala said:

 

 

Why do you post this nonsense?

[FondrenRoad 4378]

16 hours ago, bolverk said:

This is by no means a "right-wing" revolt and has little to do with the EU.

The folks who are protesting are doing so because they are poor, and they want MORE government subsidies to prop up their dying rural towns, whose economies are largely based on older industries and agriculture, and an INCREASE in the minimum wage on top of lowering the proposed fuel tax which only amounted to centimes.

French presidents of all political stripes (Chirac-conservative, Sarkozy-conservative, Hollande-socialist, Macron-moderate) have been trying to make major reforms to the labor market, underlying economy, and tax structure of France since the 1990s. But they have all inevitably had to back off to varying degrees due to mass protests. Street protests and strikes are a way of life in France - probably more than any other country on the planet - and they have long kept the elite in check or paralyzed desperately needed reforms (depending on your perspective).

By the way, I can guarantee that French farmers are quite happy and grateful for the protections their products receive in the EU's common market.

You Republicans/conservatives who are normally proponents of:

• fee-based government services (gas tax for maintaining a road network and promoting greater fuel efficiency)
• labor reforms (opposition to even the concept of a minimum wage and worker protections), and
• letting the market pick the winners and losers (allow inefficient industries to die and let people to "vote with their feet" by choosing a better place to live)

don't really seem to have a consistent political or economic philosophy at all. Do not conflate your own climate skepticism and anti-European feelings with what the majority of the protesters are actually demanding.

This goes to the core of what is happening all over the post-industrial West and reflects the on-going shift from a natural resource-based industrial economy to one based on information and services. Right now, the losers in this transition (rural towns with low educational attainment levels) are suffering across the US and Europe. Anyone with any intellectual honestly isn't sure what the appropriate policy response should be.

Clearly, the invisible hand of the free-market would tell those "gros ploucs" from rural France to go get fucked, but do we really want to go back to the days of nationalized industries and closed economies (which some of you former conservatives seem to be implying)?

Because, if you're a proponent of those, you have abandoned one of the fundamental pillars of modern right-wing political thinking: a free-market, laissez-faire economy.

This is why right wing populism is impossible in the long term. It can only work while there is war or an internal "other" to attack.  Economically, it has no solutions to save dying small towns.  The carmaker/Trump spat is how right wing populism falls apart. 

The populists in Europe, including the ethnonationalists, are nearly all socialist. Other than a hate for brown people, EU ethnonationalists share little policy commonalities with our faux libertarian and sovereign men ethnonationalists. 

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

This is why right wing populism is impossible in the long term. It can only work while there is war or an internal "other" to attack.  Economically, it has no solutions to save dying small towns.  The carmaker/Trump spat is how right wing populism falls apart. 

The populists in Europe, including the ethnonationalists, are nearly all socialist. Other than a hate for brown people, EU ethnonationalists share little policy commonalities with our faux libertarian and sovereign men ethnonationalists. 

The Yellow Vests are protesting pocketbook issues and there is no ethnonationalist element expressed so far from what I have seen or read. It is a protest against high taxation and stagnant wages - bread and butter issues.

If asked, I bet you they’re not thrilled that they are paying for the welfare benefits of  Muslim immigrants who are far more likely to be poor, on welfare and involved in criminal activity than the average native French person.

[Fozzz 152]

3 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

The populists in Europe, including the ethnonationalists, are nearly all socialist. Other than a hate for brown people, EU ethnonationalists share little policy commonalities with our faux libertarian and sovereign men ethnonationalists. 

This is absurd.  Socialism and nationalism are like oil and water.  

[David Dennison 18658]

1 hour ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

The Yellow Vests are protesting pocketbook issues and there is no ethnonationalist element expressed so far from what I have seen or read. It is a protest against high taxation and stagnant wages - bread and butter issues.

If asked, I bet you they’re not thrilled that they are paying for the welfare benefits of  Muslim immigrants who are far more likely to be poor, on welfare and involved in criminal activity than the average native French person.

It also has to do with tax cuts for the rich. That's what this is mainly about.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Fozzz said:

This is absurd.  Socialism and nationalism are like oil and water.  

You need to do some interwebbing before making a statement like this. They go hand in hand. 

[Fozzz 152]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You need to do some interwebbing before making a statement like this. They go hand in hand. 

You should open a fucking book.  

[mchookem 16219]

FWIW chatted with my French exchange student friend in Paris this morning (she's stayed with us the past two years while working at UT Jackson School)... she said it's crazy but she's mostly just worried about getting to the airport tomorrow bc they are blocking the streets...but she said it looks much worse on tv than it really is. she was more interested in telling me about her finished project she's presenting in Washington DC this week. 

she was staying here during one of the terrorist attacks in Paris... the European mindset on these things is kind of fascinating. i won't say they are nonchalant, but they definitely take these things in stride much more than Americans, kind of like 'well, that happened' and moving on. 

is it just bc it's more common? are they more 'connected' to parts of the world where these things happen with some frequency? it's interesting. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 minute ago, Fozzz said:

You should open a fucking book.  

Pretty sure nationalism can be sold with any domestic economic system. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Pretty sure nationalism can be sold with any domestic economic system. 

Yep.

[Fozzz 152]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Pretty sure nationalism can be sold with any domestic economic system. 

National boundaries weaken class solidarity.  Socialism has an international outlook that stresses class conflict, not national conflict.  The far right sometimes apes socialist slogans for the sake of appealing to the masses (the lumpenproletariat).  This isn't socialism though, it's social imperialism.    

Lenin explains this distinction here:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/ch09.htm

[Zavala 1384]

7 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

Why do you post this nonsense?

Thread is "things not going well in France" and the videos are people in France protesting getting their ass whooped. Not going well. 

[Zavala 1384]

School children being arrested

[bolverk 29399]

46 minutes ago, Zavala said:

School children being arrested

How about you provide some context instead of injecting misleading bullshit? No one here is fooled by you or your motives.

 

[bolverk 29399]

This is a much more informative analysis the provides insight into their motivations and important implications:

‘Yellow Vest’ Protests Shake France. Here’s the Lesson for Climate Change.

PARIS — Vincent Picard describes himself as a “militant ecologist.” But when protesters took to the streets to express their rage over a planned increase in France’s fuel tax, Mr. Picard joined their ranks.

He acknowledges that the tax might encourage the conservation considered critical for a healthy planet. But with the nearest train station 35 minutes away, he has to drive to work every day.

“I am conscious that we have reached the end of fossil fuels and that we have to modify our habits,” said Mr. Picard, a 32-year-old pastry maker from northern France. But, he added, “You have to continue to live.”

The gas tax is part of an effort started by France in 2014 to regularly raise the tax on fossil fuels to fight global climate change.

The so-called Yellow Vest protests against the tax increase have become the biggest obstacle yet to such attempts to encourage conservation and alternative energy use. The protests point to the difficulties facing nearly all industrialized countries committed to pulling the world back from the cliff’s edge of catastrophic climate change.

France’s cancellation of the tax increase this week in the aftermath of increasingly violent protests signaled the perils and political headwinds that governments worldwide may face as they try to wean their citizens from fossil fuels.

Spoiler

 

There is little doubt among scientists and economists — many of whom are in Poland for the current round of climate negotiations — that putting a price on carbon is essential in the effort to reduce fossil fuel dependence. The question is how to design a carbon tax, and how to cushion the blow for the most vulnerable.

Many analysts say the French tax was not politically deft, falling hardest on people outside French cities who were already feeling the pain of stagnating incomes and who do not have the same mass transportation options as urban residents.

But successfully passing carbon taxes is an increasingly delicate balancing act, with the biggest single obstacle still the pushback from the fossil fuel industry and its supporters.

Canada, for example, recently offered rebates to offset a planned carbon tax, helping people adjust to the change. But conservatives have pledged to undo Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s plan, saying it could cause economic damage, and only six of 10 provinces are going along with it.

The French in the past have been far more tolerant than most societies in accepting high taxes on gasoline and diesel fuels. The cost of a gallon of gas in France is about $6 or more — with taxes accounting for about 60 percent of that — compared with about $3 on average in the United States, where high fuel taxes have been a nonstarter.

But the French government’s tax increase, written into law before President Emmanuel Macron was elected, proved a tipping point for hard-pressed families already laboring under some of Europe’s highest overall tax burdens.

Rather than spurring the effort to cut fossil fuel use, the misstep now threatens to set it back.

It angered those who can least afford to pay more to get to work and drop off their children at school. Fossil fuel champions — including President Trump — denounced the tax. And the backlash over it landed with a thud during the critical United Nations climate change negotiations underway in Poland, which Édouard Philippe, France’s prime minister, was forced to skip because of bubbling unrest at home.

More than that, the decision this week to annul the tax increase came after protests nationwide turned violent, causing four deaths and millions of dollars in damage, and injuring more than 250 people.

If nothing else, the maelstrom in France showed that the political challenge of how to create incentives for people to move away from fossil fuels requires much more than raising a tax on gas at the pump or subsidizing solar panels.

The violent blowback by the Yellow Vest movement — named for the roadside vest adopted by the protesters that signals drivers in despair — exposed several failures.

Of the 34 billion euros, or $39 billion, that the French government is expected to raise this year from the fuel tax, less than a fourth is earmarked for measures that could help people of modest means transition to less-polluting transportation, said Daniel M. Kammen, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley who specializes in energy policy.

Much more of the fuel tax proceeds, Mr. Kammen said, could be used to lower the prices of electric vehicles, including taxis, to help make them more affordable for commuters in areas without public transportation. Or they could be used to develop more charging stations or subsidize big batteries to enable taxis to do long trips.

“So while President Macron has highlighted the need for funds to invest in clean energy, that is not actually what was planned,” Mr. Kammen said.

Politically, the backlash came from those who could least afford to give up their cars — small-town and suburban residents priced out of big cities and unhappy with Mr. Macron on a host of other issues already. It did not help that Mr. Macron had lowered taxes on the rich in one of his earliest tax code changes.

“This situation illustrates how equity and fairness considerations have to be built into the design of such policies,” Alden Meyer, policy director at the Union of Concerned Scientists, said by email from the United Nations climate talks.

What France’s experience has made clear, analysts say, is that fuel taxes work best as part of a more comprehensive plan that tries to offset the disproportionate pain felt by lower-income workers who can least afford the changes.

Mr. Picard, the pastry chef, for instance, earns €1,280 a month, or about $1,450, after payroll taxes. For him, the planned tax increase of 6 or 7 cents per liter of gas “is enormous,” he said.

“Imagine how violent this tax is for those people who earn less than me and who are not conscious of environmental needs,” added Mr. Picard, who lives in Woincourt, a village of 500 people.

But if those struggles are unfamiliar to Mr. Macron, a millionaire and former investment banker, many who study climate change goals sympathize with the Yellow Vests and support making relief part of the package.

“Everybody loves to talk about climate goals and preserving the environment, but nobody is talking about the now,” said Vonda Brunsting, a researcher at Harvard’s Kennedy School who works on environmentally responsible investment policy.

“Some governments are intent on having ambitious plans for meeting the Paris climate conference goals, but they have to survive politically long enough to put them in place,” she added. “Macron and the French government have skipped over the part involving the workers and the community.”

Among the forms of help that economists point to are offering subsidies to encourage people to use less-polluting forms of energy, and expanding transit networks rather than closing them.

Another element, especially in France, is increasing workers’ disposable income by pushing for higher wages and adjusting fixed incomes for the elderly so that they can better afford energy-efficient technology.

“We are in the transition period and the government has run into political economic problems,” said Philippe Aghion, an economist at the prestigious College de France who advised Mr. Macron during his presidential campaign. “So you need to smooth out this period. You need to reach out a hand to help people across the bridge.”

He believes a number of countries may have to violate the European Union’s 3 percent cap on annual deficits so that they can borrow more to fund their energy transitions.

The cap “was not designed for countries undergoing structural reforms,” he said.

Camilla Born, who analyzes energy policy at the research and advocacy group E3G, said that while Mr. Macron could be faulted for not putting in place social measures that would allow French citizens to “ride out the challenges of change,” the price of inaction was ultimately far more costly.

“The reason we need to take action,” she said, “is because the social and economic costs of climate impacts are far worse.”

 

Stop spreading disinformation and propaganda.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

On 12/4/2018 at 4:39 PM, bolverk said:

This is by no means a "right-wing" revolt and has little to do with the EU.

So, I went back and read every post in this thread. There is nobody saying the protesters are small government conservatives, right wing, or libertarian. They are government dependents who want their Obamaphone. It's not evidence that we need more socialism, it's evidence that socialism sucks and we should never go down that path. It's a story the illustrates the dangers of cultivating dependency on government promises.

If it weren't for straw men, you'd have no men at all.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Thetexashammer

[bolverk 29399]

21 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

So, I went back and read every post in this thread. There is nobody saying the protesters are small government conservatives, right wing, or libertarian. They are government dependents who want their Obamaphone. It's not evidence that we need more socialism, it's evidence that socialism sucks and we should never go down that path. It's a story the illustrates the dangers of cultivating dependency on government promises.

If it weren't for straw men, you'd have no men at all.

I hope you're not trying to imply that I'm the one who's bringing straw men into this discussion. My only motivation here is to try to provide some informed perspective about what is actually going on over there. For the record, I lived in France for a year and have visited several times since while also keeping in close contact with several French friends. In addition, I spent about five years of my life studying every aspect of French language, culture, history, philosophy, and politics. Therefore, I think I can offer a fairly good French perspective for members of this board who are willing to listen.

On the other hand, we've got jackasses like Zavala and Icono who are characteristically projecting their simple political American viewpoints onto an extremely nuanced and complicated situation that doesn't seem to offer a clear solution. If you've actually read (and comprehended) what's been discussed in this thread and still come to the conclusion that I'm the one using straw man arguments, then you're clearly not someone I, nor anyone else, should be wasting time or effort on.

Edit: Other contributors to this thread have explicitly claimed that these were right-wing populists and Eurosceptics.

Edited December 7, 2018 by bolverk

[Biff Tannen 45495]

5 minutes ago, bolverk said:

you're clearly not someone I, nor anyone else, should be wasting time or effort on.

[bolverk 29399]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

Try again?

[Biff Tannen 45495]

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Try again?

[bolverk 29399]

Still getting a redirect error.

[Biff Tannen 45495]

Just now, bolverk said:

Still getting a redirect error.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

17 minutes ago, bolverk said:

IOn the other hand, we've got jackasses like Zavala and Icono who are characteristically projecting their simple political American viewpoints onto an extremely nuanced and complicated situation that doesn't seem to offer a clear solution. 

Edit: Other contributors to this thread have explicitly claimed that these were right-wing populists and Eurosceptics.

I stated that nobody stated or implied they were conservative or libertarian. Because they aren't. You've twice stated that posters claimed they are. Please quote those posts. I mean, it's only 73 posts, it's not hard to quote one. I'll preview your response: there aren't any posts stating what you claim.

Tu na pas de vetements. You croix que tu es le roi, mais tu ne siat rein.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Thetexashammer

[bolverk 29399]

On 12/4/2018 at 10:17 AM, Iconoclast Texan said:

The WSJ has a great editorial today about the pushback from ordinary people around the world against the carbon tax boondoggle. Macron is the embodiment of out of touch global elite progressive condescension. His comment to small town and rural French to wait for better public transit and to frigging carpool to deal with his taxes is the 21st century version of Marie Atoinette’s let them eat cake. If the Democrats try to impose a carbon tax here, I’d hope our response would be as voiceferous as the French. I love seeing Eurosceptic, right-wing populism gaining in Europe.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-global-carbon-tax-revolt-1543880507

4

 

3 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

I stated that nobody stated or implied they were conservative or libertarian. Because they aren't. You've twice stated that posters claimed they are. Please quote those posts. I mean, it's only 73 posts, it's not hard to quote one. I'll preview your response: there aren't any posts stating what you claim.

Tu na pas de vetements. You croix que tu es le rio, mais tu ne siat rein.

Ta capacité de lire anglais et de parler français est de la merde.

[Biff Tannen 45495]

3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

Ta capacité de lire anglais et de parler français est de la merde.

[bolverk 29399]

10 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Tu na pas de vetements. You croix que tu es le rio, mais tu ne siat rein.

 

fify: Tu n'as pas de vêtements. Tu croix que tu sois le roi, mais tu ne sais rien.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

Oh I get it. The so called "right wing" in europe isn't conservative. It's not libertarian. It's labeled "right wing" by the media, but it isn't. It's authoritarian socialism. They want more government, more subsidies. They aren't asking for freedom, they're asking for more free shit.

I'm gonna make a subtle, nay, a nuanced point here. They are euroskeptic, I don't doubt. But that's simply because they will reach out to destroy any available target. As you pointed out, they have no coherent political philosophy. Anger is their ideology. 

Indeed they are "right wing" if you believe that's fascism. Because it's what they are. They believe they have the right to other people's stuff. Except that's not what people here (Americans) want, it's the opposite. We want freedom and opportunity.

So no, nobody here stated they are conservatives, yearning to breathe free. They want other people's money. That's called fascism, or socialism, whatever. They want handouts. It's what happens when you create a dependent class. It shows the dangers of big government.

Europe is heading toward revolution. Again.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Thetexashammer

[bolverk 29399]

16 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

Oh I get it. The so called "right wing" in europe isn't conservative. It's not libertarian. It's labeled "right wing" by the media, but it isn't. It's authoritarian socialism. They want more government, more subsidies. They aren't asking for freedom, they're asking for more free shit.

I'm gonna make a subtle, nay, a nuanced point here. They are euroskeptic, I don't doubt. But that's simply because they will reach out to destroy any available target. As you pointed out, they have no coherent political philosophy. Anger is their ideology. 

Indeed they are "right wing" if you believe that's fascism. Because it's what they are. They believe they have the right to other people's stuff. Except that's not what people here (Americans) want, it's the opposite. We want freedom and opportunity.

So no, nobody here stated they are conservatives, yearning to breathe free. They want other people's money. That's called fascism, or socialism, whatever. They want handouts. It's what happens when you create a dependent class. It shows the dangers of big government.

Europe is heading toward revolution. Again.

You're starting to catch on a little bit except for the fact that the media isn't calling them "right wing" or at least in none of the media I consume. Nor are the gilets jaunes being labeled "fascists" in my world. Those labels are only being bandied about on this board.

But, yes, the core group is generally under-educated and tends to be comprised of rural denizens of communities that have been bypassed by the modern economy, but there are also other peripheral hangers-on. This is a group that has been failed by both the "right" and the "left".

Where and how we go forward (not just in France, but the West as a whole) is a very complicated issue where I haven't seen many great ideas proffered. Just to let you know, my current avocation is primarily based on assisting rural communities attempt to make some fundamental changes to their local economies and help them make this transition. And, believe me, it's not easy. But, I do think that it's definitely worth the effort for the good of us all.

Edited December 7, 2018 by bolverk

[workswithseed 2036]

Europe loves to war within itself a lot more than most places it seems, I found out today that diesel is taxed at 60% in France which is freaking ridiculous, but hey socialism is gonna socialism.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

9 minutes ago, bolverk said:

You're starting to catch on a little bit except for the fact that the media isn't calling them "right wing" or at least none of the media I consume do. Nor are the gilets jaunes being labeled "fascists" in my world. But, yes, the core group is generally under-educated and tends to be comprised of rural denizens of communities that have been bypassed by the modern economy, but there are also other peripheral hangers-on. This is a group that has been failed by both the "right" and the "left".

There is no small government lobby in europe. There's only big government. Which failed them, because it was always going to fail them. It's exactly why Americans favor small government. Because big government fails, inexorably.

There's been no small government because there are too many people who are dependent on government handouts. They are impoverished because they expect government to make them prosperous. Never in the history of mankind has socialism delivered prosperity.

Maybe fascism will work out for them. Again, historically, there is a dearth of beneficent fascists, but maybe this one will be different. My opinion is that it's unlikely. A recent historical parallel is what's going on in Venezuela. But with more hate.

It's the French Revolution, it ends badly.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Thetexashammer

[workswithseed 2036]

Do European countries have a form of federalism, or is it mostly central powers with city governments?

[Incredulity 11555]

1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

Do European countries have a form of federalism, or is it mostly central powers with city governments?

It meets in Belgium, but is paid for by the Germans. Mostly.

[workswithseed 2036]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

It meets in Belgium, but is paid for by the Germans. Mostly.

I mean like within their own country.

[Fozzz 152]

8 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Oh I get it. The so called "right wing" in europe isn't conservative. It's not libertarian. It's labeled "right wing" by the media, but it isn't. It's authoritarian socialism. They want more government, more subsidies. They aren't asking for freedom, they're asking for more free shit.

I'm gonna make a subtle, nay, a nuanced point here. They are euroskeptic, I don't doubt. But that's simply because they will reach out to destroy any available target. As you pointed out, they have no coherent political philosophy. Anger is their ideology. 

Indeed they are "right wing" if you believe that's fascism. Because it's what they are. They believe they have the right to other people's stuff. Except that's not what people here (Americans) want, it's the opposite. We want freedom and opportunity.

So no, nobody here stated they are conservatives, yearning to breathe free. They want other people's money. That's called fascism, or socialism, whatever. They want handouts. It's what happens when you create a dependent class. It shows the dangers of big government.

Europe is heading toward revolution. Again.

lmao

[27-25 2040]

9 hours ago, workswithseed said:

Do European countries have a form of federalism, or is it mostly central powers with city governments?

Switzerland is a confederacy.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

6 hours ago, workswithseed said:

I mean like within their own country.

Germany is a federal republic much like we are. All Euro countries have provinces/states that have their own internal governance and capitals. But no country gives equal power to a province of 2 people and a province of 20 million people. We are unique in that nonsense. Belgium's governance is pretty close though.  Its pretty much 2 countries cobbled together with a DMZ capital that belongs to both but neither. 

As for cities, most capitals have a special designation just like ours does. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

On 12/4/2018 at 9:48 AM, Fozzz said:

lmao 

https://www.ft.com/content/b6297b3a-f4bd-11e8-9623-d7f9881e729f

While this obviously looks like a bad result, let's review what it's saying:  The bottom 2% are losing 6% of their disposable income.  Just how much disposable income does the bottom 2% really have?    

My guess is that these individuals were really not paying much in income tax but rather they've lost some type of tax credit.  (My knowledge about French income tax/credits is 0 so please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Regardless since the income tax taken in or credits given to the bottom 2% is probably negligible, their tax code should be altered to fix this issue if only for optics. 

[phdhorn 6224]

LOL, Macron's at 23% - Twenty-Three.  Two-Three.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-06/macron-s-popularity-sinks-as-paris-prepares-for-more-violence

Anyone with a brain would have known that he was going to be a colossal fuckup. And look!  He is!

[David Dennison 18658]

11 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

There is no small government lobby in europe. There's only big government. Which failed them, because it was always going to fail them. It's exactly why Americans favor small government. Because big government fails, inexorably.

There's been no small government because there are too many people who are dependent on government handouts. They are impoverished because they expect government to make them prosperous. Never in the history of mankind has socialism delivered prosperity.

Maybe fascism will work out for them. Again, historically, there is a dearth of beneficent fascists, but maybe this one will be different. My opinion is that it's unlikely. A recent historical parallel is what's going on in Venezuela. But with more hate.

It's the French Revolution, it ends badly.

Americans most certainly do not favor small government. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

LOL, Macron's at 23% - Twenty-Three.  Two-Three.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-06/macron-s-popularity-sinks-as-paris-prepares-for-more-violence

Anyone with a brain would have known that he was going to be a colossal fuckup. And look!  He is!

That's kind of what happens when you have a fucked up system like that.  In the first round, he got 24% of the vote.  Le Pen got 21%.  55% of the country desired someone else other than either of them. Most of that 55% went his way in the runoff because he wasn't a racist shitbag,  However, that 55% was made up of half Socialist voters and half center right voters.  Not exactly a "We love Macron" coalition.

[phdhorn 6224]

His problem is that he really didn't offer anything but "not them."    He offered to be the mediate between the left and right factions, but since then hasn't had any real sort of idea what to do about the country's economics and increasing terrorist situation.  So he's simply an elitist politician who at first tried to tax his way to revenue without offering shit in return.

As a result, France is experiencing its worst political upheaval in at least 50 years.  Over 70% of them support the Yellow Jackets.

He's an arrogant dork and about the worst thing France could have gotten.  I.e.: ‘Macron’s arrogance unites us’ – on the barricades with France’s gilets jaunes
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/07/macrons-arrogance-unites-us-on-the-barricades-with-frances-gilets-jaunes

Like, whoa, duh, this wasn't gonna work out.  No wai!!

[hayden_horn 11360]

i asked one of my french clients about this while wishing him a good weekend. his response: "extremists and politicians are exploiting the protests for some 'benefits'. 

i did not inquire further, but this is a sharp guy, who seemed to kind of blow off the whole thing.

completely anecdotal, but there you are.

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

On 12/4/2018 at 10:31 AM, Iconoclast Texan said:

China and India are building dirty coal fired power plants in their countries and in China’s case financing their construction across the developing world giving their manufacturing base and economy a leg up while the West is tying their hands behind their backs with shit like carbon taxes. Natural gas fired power plants are cheaper, more efficient and environmentally much cleaner than dirty coal and the market here is responding to that by ditching coal. Same principle applies to greater fuel efficiency for vehicles. Don’t need to harm the average person with a carbon tax when the elites are flying on private planes.

Other countries are shitting where they eat, we should be too!

[bolverk 29399]

1 hour ago, phdhorn said:

LOL, Macron's at 23% - Twenty-Three.  Two-Three.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-06/macron-s-popularity-sinks-as-paris-prepares-for-more-violence

Anyone with a brain would have known that he was going to be a colossal fuckup. And look!  He is!

And, yet, he was still sadly a better result than Mme Le Pen. Which of these "fuck-ups" would you have chosen?

Prior to the last round of voting, citoyens could choose between:

1. Le Pen (fascist - not an exaggeration)
2. Macron (corporatist moderate)
3. Mélenchon (socialist)
4. Fillon (disgraced & scandalized right-of-center)

Of course, the two to make it to the last round were Macron and Le Pen.

Now, you're fucking gloating? Or would you have honestly preferred a white nationalist, fascist to govern over the RF?

Stick to the weather, Frankie.

Edited December 7, 2018 by bolverk

[Fozzz 152]

Well, Mélenchon, obviously.  

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 hour ago, phdhorn said:

His problem is that he really didn't offer anything but "not them."    He offered to be the mediate between the left and right factions, but since then hasn't had any real sort of idea what to do about the country's economics and increasing terrorist situation.  So he's simply an elitist politician who at first tried to tax his way to revenue without offering shit in return.

As a result, France is experiencing its worst political upheaval in at least 50 years.  Over 70% of them support the Yellow Jackets.

He's an arrogant dork and about the worst thing France could have gotten.  I.e.: ‘Macron’s arrogance unites us’ – on the barricades with France’s gilets jaunes
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/07/macrons-arrogance-unites-us-on-the-barricades-with-frances-gilets-jaunes

Like, whoa, duh, this wasn't gonna work out.  No wai!!

With a Maine style ranked choice system, Melenchon may have won.  He would have avoided elimination in round 1. I imagine he would have been vote 2 for all Hamon and Arthaud voters which would bump him into first. Fillon would have dropped next, and most of his voters would have gone Macron 2nd choice. That would drop Le Pen out in the last round. I think her voters would rank Melenchon higher than Macron.