Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[crash_davis 23084]

7 minutes ago, immamac said:

This is none of our business we should stay way the fuck out of it, just like we do in other countries with active shit going on. 

will it be our business when china invades taiwan? either we have a say in shaping the world or we keep to ourselves and others shape the world while we sit and watch.

and do we hold our word to decades old treaties and partnerships? 

[BabaYaga 15212]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The problem with helping Russia feel secure is that Russia can’t find a way to feel secure that doesn’t involve invading countries next door. When your borders keep getting pushed outward, you do the math for what that means.

When all of Ukraine, Moldova and the Baltics belonged to the USSR and the Russians had only socialist or officially neutral states on its borders, the Russians invaded Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and installed martial law in Poland under threat of invasion. None of those countries were invaded because of anything the West did or promised, they were invaded because Russia didn’t like what they did internally.

We need to dismiss from our discourse that Russia is actually doing any of this because of a threat from the West and also dismiss from our discourse the idea that Russia will ever feel secure from the West even if we gave them back all of the Warsaw Pact. 

Yep.  This seems all about opportunity.  They've been trying to get Ukraine back since 1990 via diplomatic channels.  Now they are going to fuck around and find out with the West being in such a state of disorder

[crash_davis 23084]

Russia is doing this because they perceive that the US is weak. China senses it too. They can sow the seeds of discontent by easily misleading idiots through social media. They will divide the US on responding.

This is how empires erode. Weakness, sloth and ambivalence. 

[Bevo 13527]

20 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Well, it is one new minister and this is a departure from what they’ve said before (and for that matter, they are sprinting ahead of the U.S.).

But the Russians have no friends in Prague and the Czechs are pissed. It didn’t make as much noise as it should have in the U.S., but last spring the Czechs announced that the Russian GRU had blown up a munitions dump and killed two Czechs in the process back in 2014.  They shut down nearly the whole Russian embassy. In return, the Russians released a “unfriendly nations” list that includes two countries— the U.S. and Czech Republic.

The current government is pretty hawkish on Russia and China and doesn’t want to get lumped in with the big continental players that seem to be interested in appeasement. 

The Czechs hate Russia. I don't know if they hate them enough to go to war, but they definitely hate them enough to offer assistance.

[BabaYaga 15212]

4 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

and do we hold our word to decades old treaties and partnerships? 

[BabaYaga 15212]

5 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

will it be our business when china invades taiwan?

and they will....and we will sit back and watch 

[mchookem 16218]

2 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Russia is doing this because they perceive that the US is weak. China senses it too. They can sow the seeds of discontent by easily misleading idiots through social media. They will divide the US on responding.

This is how empires erode. Weakness, sloth and ambivalence. 

to be fair, all those things and more are happening here regardless of what is going on elsewhere in the world. 

[South Austin 52144]

19 minutes ago, kevwun said:

It won't be our business until it is, just like in WWI and WWII.

And like in Red Dawn.

[crash_davis 23084]

9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

and they will....and we will sit back and watch 

We sat and watch as both China and Russia made territorial gains. China built islands in the South Pacific and are treating once international waters as their own. We sail ships through every now and then but the stronghold has been built. Their claim is resolute. Russia took back Crimea and we didn't do shit. We spent a decade and billions in the Middle East and still lost. We are too busy fighting among ourselves because Russia and China are using the internet to sow dissent, just like we did to all the Middle Eastern countries a decade ago. We are seeing that playbook used against it. I think it's surprising both China and Russia how we are so easily duped.

We'll continue acting tough but China and Russia know our reign ends in this century. They'll continue to stress test us and we'll continue to act like scared bitches. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by crash_davis

[SimonBolivar 10931]

 

 

Supposedly they have built in some cushion this go around where the rubble falling won't hurt as bad....we'll see.

[crash_davis 23084]

4 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

 

 

Supposedly they have built in some cushion this go around where the rubble falling won't hurt as bad....we'll see.

Russia, China are leading the charge to dethrone the dollar, for economic and military reasons. It's a slow gradual process but it's well underway. These countries are playing chess while we are playing checkers, counting our 401k profits and not caring about anything beyond our borders. 

[Eastwood 4394]

These countries are playing chess while we are playing checkers, counting our 401k profits...

Not today, at least. Oof.

[immamac 42519]

6 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Russia, China are leading the charge to dethrone the dollar, for economic and military reasons. It's a slow gradual process but it's well underway. These countries are playing chess while we are playing checkers, counting our 401k profits and not caring about anything beyond our borders. 

I didn't know it was the United States of the world. Shoulda known better. 

[crash_davis 23084]

Just now, immamac said:

I didn't know it was the United States of the world. Shoulda known better. 

Since WW2, it has been our world. We've dictated military and economic might to shape the world. We've failed on a few occasions but for the most part, our policies built and guaranteed our ascendance and continuity of that position. That might has degraded the past few decades and continues to degrade. There's a reason why countries like Turkey, Iran, China, and Russia are asserting their positions. We are weak. We are whistling past the graveyard at this point.

Like I said, it's up to us how we respond. Is our focus only until the next election or is our focus on maintaining our military and with it economic standing?  You can't have the 2nd unless you have the first.

[SimonBolivar 10931]

18 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Russia, China are leading the charge to dethrone the dollar, for economic and military reasons. It's a slow gradual process but it's well underway. These countries are playing chess while we are playing checkers, counting our 401k profits and not caring about anything beyond our borders. 

Yeah I can be scared of China doing that, but Russia's economy is trash and is going to be trash. They aren't leading shit outside of being very good at cyberwarfare, flaunting power in Eastern Europe, and sowing dissent. Hell, Texas' economy is bigger than Russia's with 20% of their population.

We do have worries in the world and Russia does need to be a concern in many avenues, but I'm not worried about them financially.  I do think the spirit of your post is correct, but we forget who we are when it comes to dealing with Russia and our power internationally. Our power is waning to a certain extent, but we underplay just how hard it was in the Cold War to get some of our allies to do what we wanted. I'm looking at you France and West Germany.

Edited January 24, 2022 by SimonBolivar

[immamac 42519]

1 minute ago, crash_davis said:

Since WW2, it has been our world. We've dictated military and economic might to shape the world. We've failed on a few occasions but for the most part, our policies built and guaranteed our ascendance and continuity of that position. That might has degraded the past few decades and continues to degrade. There's a reason why countries like Turkey, Iran, China, and Russia are asserting their positions. We are weak. We are whistling past the graveyard at this point.

Like I said, it's up to us how we respond. Is our focus only until the next election or is our focus on maintaining our military and with it economic standing?  You can't have the 2nd unless you have the first.

You must not be well traveled. Lol. 

[crash_davis 23084]

1 minute ago, immamac said:

You must not be well traveled. Lol. 

I travel a ton. I know what the idea of America means to most people outside of the US. We are the beacon of hope, prosperity, and stability. 

[immamac 42519]

Just now, crash_davis said:

I travel a ton. I know what the idea of America means to most people outside of the US. We are the beacon of hope, prosperity, and stability. 

The propoganda worked on you pretty good. 

[SimonBolivar 10931]

1 minute ago, crash_davis said:

I travel a ton. I know what the idea of America means to most people outside of the US. We are the beacon of hope, prosperity, and stability. 

That and fat tourists who couldn't point out Canada on a map.

[956 Worldwide 34443]

It’s so fucking weird to me when I see well-educated, comfortable Americans gleefully hoping that the international order we built and that benefits us disproportionately collapses.  It’s like some Roman landowner sitting in Adrianople saying “what the hell, why not give the Goths a shot.”

If you don’t like American hegemony, just wait for what comes next.  Literally everything you don’t like will be worse and there will be new and worse problems too. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[BabaYaga 15212]

8 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

I travel a ton. I know what the idea of America means to most people outside of the US. We are the beacon of hope, prosperity, and stability. 

The fact that the US dollar is the de facto world's reserve currency is evidence enough of this....as are territory expansion plans and annexation by prior global powers during a period of our weakness.  

[South Austin 52144]

14 minutes ago, immamac said:

You must not be well traveled. Lol. 

Dude, we’ve all been to Key West.

[BabaYaga 15212]

13 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

That and fat tourists who couldn't point out Canada on a map.

[immamac 42519]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s so fucking weird to me when I see well-educated, comfortable Americans gleefully hoping that the international order we built and that benefits us disproportionately collapses.  It’s like some Roman landowner sitting in Adrianople saying “what the hell, why not give the Goths a shot.”

If you don’t like American hegemony, just wait for what comes next.  Literally everything you don’t like will be worse and there will be new and worse problems too. 

Another not well traveled person! 

Everyone wants to be America! 

[BabaYaga 15212]

1 minute ago, immamac said:

Another not well traveled person! 

Everyone wants to be America! 

[956 Worldwide 34443]

3 minutes ago, immamac said:

Another not well traveled person! 

Everyone wants to be America! 

Lol if you haven’t picked up on the context clue I would wager I am absolutely among the most extensively traveled posters on this board. I haven’t lived in the United States for the past 12 fucking years. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[crash_davis 23084]

23 minutes ago, immamac said:

Another not well traveled person! 

Everyone wants to be America! 

I've lead and am leading international engineering and analytics teams for over two decades. I used to travel internationally often. I have employees and good friends from Australia, Kazakhstan, Egypt, Brazil, Europe and all throughout Asia, from China, Hong Kong, Japan, and southeast Asia. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by crash_davis

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

Sending troops doesn't necessarily mean those troops will officially be participating in Ukrainian defense. But it puts Russia on edge that rocket attacks or other methods could kill NATO troops and pull NATO into it.

NATO neutralizes Russia's technical edge via no-fly and anti-missile defenses, it would be interesting to see how well Russia does against Ukraine.

If we've recently been willing to put ourselves in conflicts that had little to do with US security, why not put ourselves into a situation that impacts NATO member's borders. Am I wrong that 4 NATO countries border Ukraine?

[4doorsMoreWhores 107]

24 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Lol if you haven’t picked up on the context clue I would wager I am absolutely among the most extensively traveled posters on this board. I haven’t lived in the United States for the past 12 fucking years. 

All the cool kids hate America these days. You must not have received the notification 

[ABSR 5289]

36 minutes ago, immamac said:

Another not well traveled person! 

Everyone wants to be America! 

We get it, you've been to Arkansas.  We saw the pictures.

[immamac 42519]

You guys convinced me. We should definitely start shit with Russia over the Ukraine - For AMERICA.

[kevwun 15651]

We're not going to do anything until things get so bad that we have no choice.  Just like every other time this has happened in Europe, which is at least once a century going back several hundred years.

Edited January 24, 2022 by kevwun

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

Russia doesn't want a NATO country on his border = Putin is a dangerous madman who won't stop until the Russians sack Paris.

NATO doesn't want Russia on its border = eminently sensible, worth American treasure and lives.

[956 Worldwide 34443]

4 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Russia doesn't want a NATO country on his border = Putin is a dangerous madman who won't stop until the Russians sack Paris.

NATO doesn't want Russia on its border = eminently sensible, worth American treasure and lives.

NATO already has Russia on its borders and is and has been a entirely fine with that, for fucks sake. The only entity that believes it should be able to choose its neighbors and decide what they can do is Russia. 

[SimonBolivar 10931]

In no shit world...

 

Quote

DHS assesses that Russia would consider conducting a cyberattack on US if Moscow perceived that a US/NATO response to a potential Russian invasion of Ukraine "threatened [Russia's] long-term national security

 

[crash_davis 23084]

1 minute ago, SimonBolivar said:

In no shit world...

 

 

When is an act of war not an act of war? Oh No, Russian will keep me from watching porn! We can't get involved! Russian is just thinking of the dead kittens!

[SimonBolivar 10931]

1 minute ago, crash_davis said:

Oh No, Russian will keep me from watching porn! 

I personally believe in the power of mutually assured destruction. 

[TurkeyChew 383]

It’s been a long time—a literal lifetime as most of us have never lived in a world where America wasn’t the head and shoulders Dynastic best (think: Bama in college football)— and so it’s easy to start devaluing our massive military complex and budget and R&D, etc., but when China and Russia have grown in prowess and “sense” weakness, we will all be glad to have made the investments. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

NATO already has Russia on its borders and is and has been a entirely fine with that, for fucks sake. The only entity that believes it should be able to choose its neighbors and decide what they can do is Russia. 

Yep. Estonia and Latvia are in NATO and have large borders with Russia. I can understand that Russia doesn't want to see Ukraine join NATO but there is no indication that NATO was going to add Ukraine. 

Of course, if Russia effectively annexes Ukraine like what they currently have with Belarus, that just adds to the NATO countries that borders Russia and its satellites. It doesn't lower the #.

The NATO angle is just a fake campaign by Russia to find an excuse to take over Ukraine. No one here should assist them by spreading that bs.

[crash_davis 23084]

1 minute ago, SimonBolivar said:

I personally believe in the power of mutually assured destruction. 

We didn't build all those ICBMs just to look at. However, while we were bickering at whether or not to wear face masks, the Chinese and most likely the Russians built supersonic missiles. We would explode of the map much sooner than they would. But we'll eventually get them.

[BabaYaga 15212]

7 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Oh No, Russian will keep me from watching porn!

[BabaYaga 15212]

3 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

supersonic missiles.

hypersonic, but the point still stands.  

[crash_davis 23084]

3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Yep. Estonia and Latvia are in NATO and have large borders with Russia. I can understand that Russia doesn't want to see Ukraine join NATO but there is no indication that NATO was going to add Ukraine. 

Of course, if Russia effectively annexes Ukraine like what they currently have with Belarus, that just adds to the NATO countries that borders Russia and its satellites. It doesn't lower the #.

The NATO angle is just a fake campaign by Russia to find an excuse to take over Ukraine. No one here should assist them by spreading that bs.

It's all bullshit. They want unencumbered access to the Black Sea.

[BabaYaga 15212]

And if we want to see a stepping stone into "Skynet", it's hypersonic weapons.  Weapons that are fast that they exceed the human capability to react to them, thus engendering our own response technology to deal with them that is effectively 100% automated

[Bevo 13527]

5 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

It's all bullshit. They want unencumbered access to the Black Sea.

What's wrong with Krasnodar?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

The fact is that certain Euro countries may put themselves in the way of Russia, which in turn could pull the US into it. It's in our best interest to find a solution before Russia attacks. It most likely will mean some capitulation to Russia including a X year ban on bringing Ukraine into NATO even thought we all know that isn't the russian goal here.

However it's naïve to think we can talk or scare Russia into just going home. to do that, they have to get something. That isn't appeasement but international relations.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

24 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

In no shit world...

 

 

That would be a blatant act of war.

[crash_davis 23084]

2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

What's wrong with Krasnodar?

I should amend that. They want more unencumbered access to the Black Sea. It's the same thing that China is doing in SE Pacific, territorial claims to expand it's military reach. Whatever the many reasons, Ukraine is a strategic chess piece for Putin. He did not hesitate to invade Georgia. He took Crimea while the rest of the world wrote a sternly worded letter as a response.

[Captainant 27463]

2 hours ago, crash_davis said:

will it be our business when china invades taiwan? either we have a say in shaping the world or we keep to ourselves and others shape the world while we sit and watch.

Considering that >60% of chip manufacturing capacity is located in Taiwan, I'd imagine we're going to give a shit eventually considering the pain that the chip shortage has brought to our economy for the last couple years.

2 hours ago, crash_davis said:

and do we hold our word to decades old treaties and partnerships? 

And lulz, you must've not been paying attention for the last four years if you don't think that question has already been answered for our international allies...

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

China isn't going to invade Taiwan any time soon. First off, why invade an island that you already claim. Second, China has to worry about some level of a loss. China could put their full weight to take over Taiwan but that would still be embarrassing to them.

If I understand correctly, China's strategy is to continue to work on internal Taiwanese politics to convince younger generations to want to rejoin with China. Get Taiwan to come back willingly.