Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

14 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

lots of content marketing/social media shops are going to start popping up out of Ukraine once this is all said and done. They're masters at it.

[RDCanecutter 26443]

16 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

I'll save most of this for CR, but I didn't think Boris of the wild ass hair would shame the Germans so hard without hardly even trying. 

When you've got a super power inside you, you gotta let it out.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

In my Guard experience, we often had newer gear than the Regular Army and Reserves. Hometown Pork at work.

I recently sat next to a Guard NCO headed to Korea due to the tensions with China. He made a damn good case that 25-35 year dudes with experience are a way better defense dollar value than a bunch of cheap enlisted scratching their asses.

[Fico 1778]

7 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

An interesting book about being a contract "conscript" during Chechnya. Not a wonderful piece of literature but enlightening. I can picture some of that is happening today in Eastern Ukraine. Worth a read for those who want to learn more. 

A Soldier's War in Chechnya, Arkady Babchenko

This is an outstanding dispatch from the frontline of war - unsparing, unsentimental, blackly comic and brutally beautiful - from an ordinary soldier who tells it like it is.This title features readers of contemporary reportage and war writing - from Herr and Kapuscinski to Swofford's "Jarhead" and Bowden's "Black Hawk Down"; plus lovers of Tolstoy, Chekhov, Babel, et al, Russophiles."I always thought that war was black and white. But it is colour."A compulsively readable, autobiographical account of life as a young soldier in Russia's Chechen wars, it takes the raw and mundane reality of days amid guns and grenades and twists it into compelling, chilling - and eerily elegant - prose. With unblinking honesty, Babchenko traces his journey from innocence to experience, beginning with his teenage arrival in the transit camp just north of Chechnya and harsh treatment by his seniors as a naive and scared new recruit, through to his period of active duty at the front, by which time, he has become a brutalized and hardened soldier.Does not look like things are going to get better. 

Thanks for the recommendation, adding to my reading list. Currently reading memoir of Soviet M4 Sherman commander.

And anyone who hasn't read World War III by Sir John Hackett, highly recommend - written in 1978 and published in 1982(?) is scary accurate with what we've been seeing in the current conflict. 

[The Dog 44052]

 

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

[atomheartbevo 89671]

Thanks to the post above, found a new t-shirt I want

 

[The Dog 44052]

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

53 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

Ukraine is my new favorite country. I’m never going there, but I love it.

21 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

Superbonker 9000 is what my wife calls my dong.

[texastough 1129]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

 

Seems lots of folks, both "experts" and some posters here, are handwringing about a relatively static frontline and basically interpreting that one data point to mean that Ukraine lacks the capability to go on a major offensive and retake significant territory anytime soon. I don't know shit, but that sounds a lot like everyone predicting Ukraine would fall within days when the war began. 

Some describe the current situation as a stalemate. But is it really a stalemate when Ukraine is continuing to degrade Russian forces at a significantly higher rate than their own losses? HIMARS are wreaking havoc on Russian logistics and command centers. Russia is still trying to mount lots of local offensives, which for the most part are being repelled and in lots of cases with heavy losses. On top of that, the flow of arms to Ukraine is increasing, and fresh troops are being trained to NATO standards. 

If you are the Ukrainian military, would you prefer to mount a major offensive before or after tens of thousands of trained reinforcements and $3 billion more in arms arrive, and HIMARS finishes destroying its targets? Before or after rubbing out Russian offensives that degrade Russian forces at a 4:1 clip over Ukraine's? To me, Ukraine is simply setting conditions and using the same strategy that took back the north -- destroy logistics and such until Russian cannot effectively defend, much less go on the offensive. 

If you read the tea leaves, I also think Ukraine has a plan. This is something I've been thinking about since Ukraine announced the southern offensive. At the time, I was asking why on earth Ukraine would announce that? Now I believe it was purposeful disinformation aimed at drawing a lot of Russian forces to Kherson oblast. The immediate effect of that was to take pressure off the Donbas front line, where artillery had just closed the Sieverdonesk pocket. Causing a lot of Russian BTG's to be transferred to Kherson meant that they were in a much more precarious logistical position, not only across a major river but also as far from Russian resupply as anywhere on the frontline. 

But if the announcement of the southern counteroffensive was a purposeful headfake, I don't believe it was done only to take pressure off the Donbas frontlines. Ukraine knows that it needs to make some advances soon to maintain support for the war. I think it was because the main counteroffensive will begin elsewhere. Today the Mayor of Melitopol tweeted that residents should evacuate before winter, purportedly due to lack of gas for heat. I'm going to make another bold prediction and say its because thats where the counteroffensive will start. After Ukraine has set all the conditions it can, and tipped the balance of military power as far as it can in its favor -- I believe within the next month or two -- Ukraine makes a major push into Zaporizhia oblast. If successful, it would divide Russian forces in half, with a big part of the southern half pinned across the Dnipro in Kherson with absolutely no hope of resupply. Those forces would fold. At the same time, Ukraine could advance on the east well behind the front, where Russia has had a lot of time to dig in, set mines, etc. 

Will it work? No idea. Ukraine probably only has one shot to make this happen soon, if it fails then we are in for a long war. But Ukraine is being helped by NATO military expertise and intelligence, not to mention the factors above, and definitely has morale on its side. I think when it happens Russian forces fold like a cheap track suit.

P.S. I'm also waiting for undercover operatives to put a detonator in an ammo car on a train thats about to head over the Kerch bridge.

[956 Worldwide 34715]

The cope….. it’s so delicious. I drink this milkshake up.

https://www.imetatronink.com/2022/08/no-fly-zone.html?m=1

Quote

I’ve become increasingly intrigued by the fact that western military analysts – even among those not burdened with the epidemic strain of virulent antipathy towards Russia – have not spoken much (if at all) about what I consider to be quite arguably the most impressive revelation of the war in Ukraine.

 

In addition to imposing a virtual “you fly, you die” rule against the Ukrainian Air Force and the various drones they employ, the Russians are, with a formidable array of air defense systems of varying capacities, routinely shooting down: ballistic missiles, MLRS rockets, HARMS anti-radiation missiles, and even artillery shells.

 

 

 

[Parliament 14260]

1 hour ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

I recently sat next to a Guard NCO headed to Korea due to the tensions with China. He made a damn good case that 25-35 year dudes with experience are a way better defense dollar value than a bunch of cheap enlisted scratching their asses.

What about 45 yo Surly keyboard special operators?

[Chad Fuck 17682]

33 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The cope….. it’s so delicious. I drink this milkshake up.

https://www.imetatronink.com/2022/08/no-fly-zone.html?m=1

 

 

 

Who the fuck is this jag-off?

[Parliament 14260]

A Russian sympathizer on the CIA and MI6 hitlist.

[Fico 1778]

50 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The cope….. it’s so delicious. I drink this milkshake up.

https://www.imetatronink.com/2022/08/no-fly-zone.html?m=1

 

 

 

Holy fuck this guy likes to deepthroat his own turds

[kevwun 15789]

I for one totally believe that Russia can shoot down artillery shells.  They do it with lightning bolts from their arses.

[InkaUtexas 25944]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The cope….. it’s so delicious. I drink this milkshake up.

https://www.imetatronink.com/2022/08/no-fly-zone.html?m=1

 

 

 

Dick head should write for TexAgs. 

[RDCanecutter 26443]

3 hours ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

I recently sat next to a Guard NCO headed to Korea due to the tensions with China. He made a damn good case that 25-35 year dudes with experience are a way better defense dollar value than a bunch of cheap enlisted scratching their asses.

Depends on the MOS, but overall, yeah. Our Guard Motor Pool had several guys who ran their own motorcycle shops or suchlike. Damn good shots too. The MP included real cops, and the 40-year-old ones were a lot more mellow and effective at crowd-control than the 20-year-old Regular Army MPs, who felt their authoritah was being questioned.

[RDCanecutter 26443]

12 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Most people on this thread follow Bellingcat. If you don’t, you need to. Their work is better than a Tom Clancy novel.  Their latest piece on a GRU illegal working in Naples and targeting NATO-affiliated officers and contractors is amazing. 
 

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/08/25/socialite-widow-jeweller-spy-how-a-gru-agent-charmed-her-way-into-nato-circles-in-italy/?fbclid=IwAR0ELwulWVCdYiwBKEBJQ15cb4w3_O3S-pmIvKtaOX22GVOsvygnnSY-doY

 

The best part is this completely believable origin story that in no way sounds like a shitty-ass cover for someone who never existed:

 

So how hard would it be for some random dude to fake being a NATO contractor, just so he could pick up some Russian honeypot strange in a Naples bar?

[DigglerontheHoof 21199]

34 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Dick head should write for TexAgs. 

He probably does 

[atomheartbevo 89671]

3 hours ago, The Dog said:

 

 

 

 

an Ewok with dress shoes and a dog’s head.

Edited August 26, 2022 by atomheartbevo

[956 Worldwide 34715]

19 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

So how hard would it be for some random dude to fake being a NATO contractor, just so he could pick up some Russian honeypot strange in a Naples bar?

I think a great rom-com would be two Russian illegals honeypotting each other, not knowing they’re both spies. 
 

“Yeees. I am working for the NATO organization for many years. We should to be meeting for the cocktails and knowing each other more.” 
 

“I will be happy for drinking cocktails with you. Please, to be telling me your interesting stories from the work.” 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[Fico 1778]

21 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

He probably does 

Close. He writes for FAIR - FAIR is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, practice, and history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

He clearly is an expert on magic underpants and what airdefense doing. 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

^Not good at all if these are the long-range strike ones, they can loiter throughout the night searching for HIMARS

Edited August 26, 2022 by MillerEP

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[MillerEP 30455]

https://www.wired.com/story/satellites-show-the-alarming-extent-of-russian-detention-camps/

Satellites Show the Alarming Extent of Russian Detention Camps
Images have identified 21 facilities that are forcibly detaining thousands of Ukrainians, as well as possible mass grave sites.

Quote

 

A DAY AFTER the six-month anniversary of the start of the war in Ukraine, a new report reveals never before seen information about Russia’s filtration camp system in eastern Ukraine, in which civilians and prisoners of war are detained, interrogated, and, at times, forcibly deported to Russia. The researchers have also identified what they believe are graves near camps where prisoners of war (POWs) were being held.

The camps, all of which are in the eastern region of Donetsk, were identified by the Conflict Observatory, a US-government-funded partnership between Yale University’s Humanitarian Research Lab, the Smithsonian Cultural Rescue Initiative, artificial-intelligence company PlanetScape Ai, and the geographic-information-system mapping software Esri. Their report used images from Telegram channels, commercial satellites, and existing documentation to identify the locations of camps used by the Russian military for interrogation, detention, and registration of Ukrainian civilians, some of whom are then forcibly deported to Russia.

“This is the first report to conclusively identify to high confidence 21 facilities engaged in the filtration of Ukrainian civilians,” says Nathaniel Raymond, a coleader of the Humanitarian Research Lab and lecturer at Yale's Jackson School of Global Affairs. An earlier intelligence report had previously identified 18 suspected filtration centers. “We can't estimate based on geospatial and OSINT alone how many are in detention and how many have come through. That's not methodologically possible. However, we do have a sense that the scale here is covering an oblast, the equivalent of a state.”

The filtration system, which US government reports indicate has ramped up in recent months, has been particularly hard for outside humanitarian and human rights groups to assess. Only those who have permission from Russian forces have been able to access the camps. Reports from detainees who have been released from filtration facilities, however, indicate that they have faced interrogation and even torture. Former detainees have reported being held in cells so cramped they slept in shifts, having the contacts on their phones and their biometric data collected, and being seperated from their families.

Though there are no clear numbers for how many Ukrainians have been forcibly relocated, the Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights estimated that by June 25, 2022, some 1.7 million people had already reached Russia. Many experts have described these tactics as genocidal.

“The forced deportations from Ukraine is an unlawful transfer of protected persons underneath the Fourth Geneva Convention and international human rights law,” says Matthew Steinhelfer, deputy assistant secretary at the US State Department’s Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations. “This constitutes a war crime.”

“Eyewitnesses, survivors, and Ukraine’s General Prosecutor have reported that Russian authorities have transported tens of thousands of people to detention facilities inside Russian-controlled Donetsk, where many are reportedly tortured,” said US secretary of state Anthony Blinken in a statement released last month. While some people are processed by Russian forces and then released, “evidence is mounting that Russian authorities are also reportedly detaining or disappearing thousands of Ukrainian civilians who do not pass ‘filtration.’ Those detained or ‘filtered out’ include Ukrainians deemed threatening because of their potential affiliation with the Ukrainian army, territorial defense forces, media, government, and civil society groups.”

In a major finding of the report, researchers were able to use satellite imagery to identify what Raymond describes as “grave-like digging” near a filtration center in the village of Olenivka, where Ukrainian prisoners of war were being held. On July 29, an explosion at the facility killed 53 Ukrainian prisoners (Ukrainian authorities allege Russian forces detonated explosives at the filtration center, which Russia denies), but the Conflict Observatory found apparent graves appear months before the explosion. Many of the prisoners held at Olenivka were part of the Azov battalion that held out against Russian advances into the city of Mariupol at the Azovstal steel mill until they surrendered in May.

“There are gravelike structures behind the barracks where [Russian forces] have been keeping the POWs that appear in April, at a time when there are released prisoners saying they were digging graves,” says Raymond. “And those objects are approximately two meters to two and a half meters in length.”

While Raymond says the Observatory can’t confirm whether prisoners of war were killed—an act that would constitute a war crime—he says he hopes the report demonstrates the urgency of securing humanitarian access to Russian-controlled areas of Ukraine, and the UN secretary general’s recently announced fact-finding mission on the Olenivka explosion.

The State Department’s Steinhelfer told WIRED that the collection and preservation of this data is a key step in facilitating “accountability for war crimes and other atrocities by members of Russia's forces in Ukraine.”

“It's five alarm bells going off,” says Raymond. “If it's this bad based on what we can observe from space, and what we see on those who've been released, what is it like for those still in the facilities?

 

 

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

Seems lots of folks, both "experts" and some posters here, are handwringing about a relatively static frontline and basically interpreting that one data point to mean that Ukraine lacks the capability to go on a major offensive and retake significant territory anytime soon. I don't know shit, but that sounds a lot like everyone predicting Ukraine would fall within days when the war began. 
Some describe the current situation as a stalemate. But is it really a stalemate when Ukraine is continuing to degrade Russian forces at a significantly higher rate than their own losses? HIMARS are wreaking havoc on Russian logistics and command centers. Russia is still trying to mount lots of local offensives, which for the most part are being repelled and in lots of cases with heavy losses. On top of that, the flow of arms to Ukraine is increasing, and fresh troops are being trained to NATO standards. 
If you are the Ukrainian military, would you prefer to mount a major offensive before or after tens of thousands of trained reinforcements and $3 billion more in arms arrive, and HIMARS finishes destroying its targets? Before or after rubbing out Russian offensives that degrade Russian forces at a 4:1 clip over Ukraine's? To me, Ukraine is simply setting conditions and using the same strategy that took back the north -- destroy logistics and such until Russian cannot effectively defend, much less go on the offensive. 
If you read the tea leaves, I also think Ukraine has a plan. This is something I've been thinking about since Ukraine announced the southern offensive. At the time, I was asking why on earth Ukraine would announce that? Now I believe it was purposeful disinformation aimed at drawing a lot of Russian forces to Kherson oblast. The immediate effect of that was to take pressure off the Donbas front line, where artillery had just closed the Sieverdonesk pocket. Causing a lot of Russian BTG's to be transferred to Kherson meant that they were in a much more precarious logistical position, not only across a major river but also as far from Russian resupply as anywhere on the frontline. 
But if the announcement of the southern counteroffensive was a purposeful headfake, I don't believe it was done only to take pressure off the Donbas frontlines. Ukraine knows that it needs to make some advances soon to maintain support for the war. I think it was because the main counteroffensive will begin elsewhere. Today the Mayor of Melitopol tweeted that residents should evacuate before winter, purportedly due to lack of gas for heat. I'm going to make another bold prediction and say its because thats where the counteroffensive will start. After Ukraine has set all the conditions it can, and tipped the balance of military power as far as it can in its favor -- I believe within the next month or two -- Ukraine makes a major push into Zaporizhia oblast. If successful, it would divide Russian forces in half, with a big part of the southern half pinned across the Dnipro in Kherson with absolutely no hope of resupply. Those forces would fold. At the same time, Ukraine could advance on the east well behind the front, where Russia has had a lot of time to dig in, set mines, etc. 
Will it work? No idea. Ukraine probably only has one shot to make this happen soon, if it fails then we are in for a long war. But Ukraine is being helped by NATO military expertise and intelligence, not to mention the factors above, and definitely has morale on its side. I think when it happens Russian forces fold like a cheap track suit.
P.S. I'm also waiting for undercover operatives to put a detonator in an ammo car on a train thats about to head over the Kerch bridge.

I wouldn’t expect a conventional counter attack based on how asymmetrical UKR has been.

It’s going to something like carpet bombing via drone during the Fall mud season.

Until then keep up the thousand cuts MO.

[MillerEP 30455]

Y'all know I'm pro-Ukraine on this, but yeah it IS a stalemate right now and will continue to be unless something drastic happens before winter sets in.

Russia is making small gains, VERY small, but they are progressing. They have an advantage in "concentrated" numbers and artillery. Meaning they amass a lot of people in a single area. completely LEVEL an entire neighborhood, block by block. They then send in recon elements. If they get fired on, they retreat, and rinse-and-repeat. Keep shelling until there is nothing but rubble. Ukrainians are much more risk-averse, so they pull back, and cede this new empire of dirt to the Russians, so the Russian fake press and TikTok warriors can come in behind them and crow about their gains, and the whole process starts over. That's why all the updates from Ukraine all sound the same: "Russian forces tried to go this direction but then retreated," it's just a small force of cannon fodder to see if the Ukrainians are still there. If so, they pull back and keep leveling everything even more.

The West hasn't given Ukraine nearly what it needs to turn the tide, so for now, they're just "turtling" (to use a Gamer term). They're doing amazing work with what little we have given them, but their huge wins are maybe 1-2 big hits a night, while they take an entire barrage across the entire line each night. We've given them enough to stay afloat, but not to get pulled out of the water completely. Russia has patience, they have the numbers, and have no aversion to sending wave after wave of bodies until they get their way and buy their propagandist's time to do their work in the areas they capture. 

Ukraine does have the current momentum to hold steady, get some fresh and well-trained warm bodies, and get some conditional Western equipment, but they're so risk-averse they really don't go on "offensives" much. Instead, it's limited gains while the West's attention span starts to wane (and will continue to especially if it's a harsh winter). Without massive uprisings, a collapse or political changes in Russia, or some major shift in policy to where the West gets more involved (to include Ukraine feeling frisky enough to go toe-to-toe and go on a multi-pronged offensive), this will drag out, and it'll be a waiting game to see who can outlast who.

As my grandfather used to say: "You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up faster." Wishes, Wants, Rhetoric, and ideology is good and all, but when it comes to it, it doesn't amount to shit, which Russia has a lot of.

Edited August 26, 2022 by MillerEP

[Gengs1 2583]

7 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

Y'all know I'm pro-Ukraine on this, but yeah it IS a stalemate right now and will continue to be unless something drastic happens before winter sets in.

Russia is making small gains, VERY small, but they are progressing. They have an advantage in "concentrated" numbers and artillery. Meaning they amass a lot of people in a single area. completely LEVEL an entire neighborhood, block by block. They then send in recon elements. If they get fired on, they retreat, and rinse-and-repeat. Keep shelling until there is nothing but rubble. Ukrainians are much more risk-averse, so they pull back, and cede this new empire of dirt to the Russians, so the Russian fake press and TikTok warriors can come in behind them and crow about their gains, and the whole process starts over. That's why all the updates from Ukraine all sound the same: "Russian forces tried to go this direction but then retreated," it's just a small force of cannon fodder to see if the Ukrainians are still there. If so, they pull back and keep leveling everything even more.

The West hasn't given Ukraine nearly what it needs to turn the tide, so for now, they're just "turtling" (to use a Gamer term). They're doing amazing work with what little we have given them, but their huge wins are maybe 1-2 big hits a night, while they take an entire barrage across the entire line each night. We've given them enough to stay afloat, but not to get pulled out of the water completely. Russia has patience, they have the numbers, and have no aversion to sending wave after wave of bodies until they get their way and buy their propagandist's time to do their work in the areas they capture. 

Ukraine does have the current momentum to hold steady, get some fresh and well-trained warm bodies, and get some conditional Western equipment, but they're so risk-averse they really don't go on "offensives" much. Instead, it's limited gains while the West's attention span starts to wane. Without massive uprisings, a collapse or political changes in Russia, or some major shift in policy to where the West gets more involved (to include Ukraine feeling frisky enough to go toe-to-toe and go on a multi-pronged offensive), this will drag out, and it'll be a waiting game to see who can outlast who.

As my grandfather used to say: "You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one fills up faster." Wishes, Wants, Rhetoric, and ideology is good and all, but that's nothing compared to actual equipment, which Russia has a shit ton of.

Pretty much, I think Russia will just settle in the land until the west gives up supporting Ukraine and keep the land, with no major offensive by the Ukrainians nothing will change in terms getting land back. They need long range weapons to get on the offensive and some planes. Russia has time on their hand and will throw bodies at the problem, the leadership won’t change in Russia.
Once winter sets, the Ukrainians are in trouble with no way of heating most of the places since all central heating is destroyed or getting supplied by heating sources. Europe will get strangled in heat demands due to gas shortage and will fold. 
Besides the USA, Europe isn’t doing much for weapons support. 
Russia has the people and weapons to drag this out and get the land. 

[MillerEP 30455]

^Interesting thread

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[MillerEP 30455]

^I know some of this was posted earlier, but here's another thread. I love how the "high-end jewelry" she supposedly made was cheap Ali-Baba Express (Chinese Amazon) knockoffs for a few euros.

 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[27-25 2047]

17 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

 

 

More like an ammo dump.

Edited August 26, 2022 by 27-25

[Gengs1 2583]

As a leader of a powerful country, when do you go, I am going to fuck these guys for disrespecting my country and my name. This would be a perfect time to do it, FAFO moment.

Better put some respect on the name moment 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

^Khazakstan giving direct aid to Ukraine now (Well Kazakhstani aid). Their turn from Russia has been interesting. 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[grazinhorn 472]

9 hours ago, utee94 said:

 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[Kwix 2186]

5 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

 

Is deputy deputy really his title? 

[MillerEP 30455]

 

[Nivek 16930]

Pretty much, I think Russia will just settle in the land until the west gives up supporting Ukraine and keep the land, with no major offensive by the Ukrainians nothing will change in terms getting land back. They need long range weapons to get on the offensive and some planes. Russia has time on their hand and will throw bodies at the problem, the leadership won’t change in Russia.
Once winter sets, the Ukrainians are in trouble with no way of heating most of the places since all central heating is destroyed or getting supplied by heating sources. Europe will get strangled in heat demands due to gas shortage and will fold. 
Besides the USA, Europe isn’t doing much for weapons support. 
Russia has the people and weapons to drag this out and get the land. 

That is the strategy. Bleed them and keep bleeding them. Let them think they can win and bleed them more. See how much they are willing to commit to this failure.

They can make some gains but they cannot really keep it and secure it.

[MillerEP 30455]