Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[MissingInAction 25038]

I'm no Einstein, but I'm aware I am smarter than most. It's a blessing and a curse. If you know, you know.

Some friends of mine got me this card for my birthday. It's perfection.

 

[Bevo 13576]

9 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Not completely surprising that the two most populous countries are the leaders in the production of one of the easiest and most abundant food sources. I'm pretty sure your description of Australia is still correct. 

Yeah, without googling, I don't think Australia has much in the middle.

[SL Xpress 7513]

3 minutes ago, utee94 said:

 

Yeah, you probably don't think of China and India as tremendous grain producers, because they're not tremendous grain exporters.  They retain most of their crop for national use.

 

Edit: Here's a chart I found on the internet, on a website called "beef2live" so it's gotta be true.

 

https://beef2live.com/story-top-20-largest-wheat-exporters-world-0-206491#:~:text=Russia is the largest wheat,Canada and the United States.

 

Honestly it's just flat out ignorance on my part. No real excuse for it, given how much I read on this kind of stuff. Common sense would have told me they produce a huge amount of food. But my prejudices focused on how much they had to import, not on how much they actually grow. 

And again, there's fucking Australia shipping out 1/15 of the world's exports of wheat. Never would have thought that in a million years. Unless the wheat was made of copper. 

It was just me being dumb. Nothing wrong with that. It's healthy for me to be reminded of how dumb I am. Hubris is a terrible terrible thing. 

[Bevo 13576]

10 minutes ago, utee94 said:

 

Yeah, you probably don't think of China and India as tremendous grain producers, because they're not tremendous grain exporters.  They retain most of their crop for national use.

 

Edit: Here's a chart I found on the internet, on a website called "beef2live" so it's gotta be true.

 

https://beef2live.com/story-top-20-largest-wheat-exporters-world-0-206491#:~:text=Russia is the largest wheat,Canada and the United States.

 

Skipping China is a huge mistake as is skipping India.

[BamaATL 16593]

13 minutes ago, utee94 said:

 

Yeah, you probably don't think of China and India as tremendous grain producers, because they're not tremendous grain exporters.  They retain most of their crop for national use.

 

Edit: Here's a chart I found on the internet, on a website called "beef2live" so it's gotta be true.

 

https://beef2live.com/story-top-20-largest-wheat-exporters-world-0-206491#:~:text=Russia is the largest wheat,Canada and the United States.

 

Agriculture is certainly not something I know a lot about, but some of this was very surprising to me.   Kazakhstan is a country of 20 million but somehow the 8th largest exporter of wheat.  If I had all 197 countries to guess at who was 8, I would have gotten well down the list before I said Kazakhstan, which rightly or wrongly I view as an arid desert like country.  Certainly others were surprising as well, including the aforementioned Australia.  

[Schulz2.0 28951]

3 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Skipping China is a huge mistake as is skipping India.

Now put it as the amount produced per person in each country. They're both largely reliant on food imports.

[Royalfan5 2354]

1 minute ago, BamaATL said:

Agriculture is certainly not something I know a lot about, but some of this was very surprising to me.   Kazakhstan is a country of 20 million but somehow the 8th largest exporter of wheat.  If I had all 197 countries to guess at who was 8, I would have gotten well down the list before I said Kazakhstan, which rightly or wrongly I view as an arid desert like country.  Certainly others were surprising as well, including the aforementioned Australia.  

Wheat's a weed, you spit on it and it'll grow. There's a reason we only grow it in the driest parts of our ag belt. 

[AUS-97HORN 11757]

3 hours ago, BamaATL said:

 The French stuck their neck out for us 250 years ago to support democracy but also to fuck the Brits.     Here we get to pay it forward, and fuck the Russians.  

uh... the absolute LAST fucking thing the French King was doing was "supporting democracy", he was literally the last European absolute monarch, he didnt want anything to do with Democracy.

His reason for providing support was because it fucked over England, and kept a huge portion of their military (especially their NAVY) occupied thousands of miles and 1 months or more, away from most major French military and trading centers around the world.  But the French were also worried about losing sugar colonies in the Caribbean in case England got froggy again

Haiti, Martinique, St Barts & St Lucia (which the French lost just as they started providing aid), were all in danger of being taken over.  

Plus once they REALLY started providing aid, Britain was forced to abandon several former French Caribbean colonies to protect Jamaica, Bermuda and Barbados (along with several others),  and that allowed France to regain Tobago, Dominica, Grenada, St Vincent and St Kits.  

 

[Mullet Free 40]

58 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Wat? No. We don't. The article itself doesn't even make that claim. First, it's reported to be from anonymous sources in the US intelligence community. That's a pretty substantial pool of potential sources whose credibility cannot be ascertained by the reader. Second, it says the evidence only "suggests" it was a Pro-Ukrainian group. Based solely on this limited report, we absolutely do NOT know that this excludes Russia. Lastly, it also states that officials who have been briefed on the findings are divided on how much weight to put on the info, which naturally means some of them don't believe it to be credible. 

I would also question the writer as they claim 1) Ukraine had a lot of incentive to see the pipeline destroyed, and 2) Russia had no motive to do so. You can quibble about the first point, but there's no debate the second is untrue. 

 

41 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Those were my quotes. I stand by them. An anonymous report in the NYT with no description of new information isn't going to convince me otherwise. Especially when the author of the article in question apparently can't fathom how Russia would benefit from destroying an unused pipeline when it immediately 1) blamed the UK, Ukraine, and the west, and 2) offered to increase production from the operating pipelines in exchange for a reduction in sanctions. 

 

31 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

congrats, pat yourself on the back, throw out your chest and tell us all how an anonymous  intelligence source is now completely believable because it confirms your worldview.

 

fuck, go to Texags if you wanna brag about "being right" they might give a shit, we dont, esp when its not a corroborated source and makes some ridiculous damning assumptions that we know are not reality (specifically that Russia gains nothing by their being blown up by Russia)  

Skepticism is certainly warranted anytime a story comes from anonymous intelligence sources, just as with the Hersh story.
 

Putting that aside, you have to realize this isn't some rogue substacker. There aren't intrepid reporters at the NYT freely bucking narratives. This didn't slip unknowingly past the editorial team. This is what was meant to be released to the public. Quite intentional.

Now, why would the intelligence community want to cast any doubt on the story that Russia blew up their pipeline? The whole mainstream media has been on the same page to this point. That's the big question, because that's all this story accomplishes.

To me, there's no reason to do that unless it really wasn't the Russians. 

Personally, I doubt it was a ragtag group of paramilitary divers or some shit. I suspect we'll learn more soonish.

[SL Xpress 7513]

6 minutes ago, Royalfan5 said:

Wheat's a weed, you spit on it and it'll grow. There's a reason we only grow it in the driest parts of our ag belt. 

My grandfather who grew up on a big wheat farm in Kansas moved to west Texas back in 1956 to teach military pilots how to fly helicopters. Eventually he bought some land and told people he was going to grow wheat, and they told him he was crazy. He did it anyway. The crops were never as healthy as the ones he grew up with in Kansas - or the ones in other parts of Texas where the soil isn't rocky clay. But he grew it. 

Then stopped because it was too fucking hard to grow wheat on rocky clay soil, lol. 

Easier to grow hay and pasture land and raise cattle. 

[PTINS 3467]

5 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Yeah, without googling, I don't think Australia has much in the middle.

 

5 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Yeah, without googling, I don't think Australia has much in the middle.

I remember moving to Houston in the 1980, working with some of the best & the brightest from all over the country, who were surprised Houston had so many trees. It is was ~ 10% humidity from being a tropical rain forest, but the image of Texas was tumbleweeds and cattle ranches. When they came to Austin, they were surprised by the hills and wondered why we didn't have ski slopes. duh!!!

All you need to grow wheat is a relatively flat landscape void of trees, cold weather and warm weather. Which is damn near everywhere above and below the tropics.  Everybody can grow it, but not everyone needs to export it.  Export #'s mask the true supply & demand.

Corn >> wheat, in margins, I would guess. A bag of deer corn was $2.88/50# in 2002. It's about $12/50# now, thanks to ethanol regulations. Cost of a loaf of bread never entered my mind.  Clearly Russia/Ukraine wheat to the MIddle East is much cheaper than US or Australia. 

The winter wheat from the Red River to Canada, ...

 

 

 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

43 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

Agriculture is certainly not something I know a lot about, but some of this was very surprising to me.   Kazakhstan is a country of 20 million but somehow the 8th largest exporter of wheat.  If I had all 197 countries to guess at who was 8, I would have gotten well down the list before I said Kazakhstan, which rightly or wrongly I view as an arid desert like country.  Certainly others were surprising as well, including the aforementioned Australia.  

Kazakhstan has a strip of black earth along its border with Siberia, some of the most fertile soil in the world. Think of it and parts of central Russia like you would Canada. Most of Kazakhstan is steppe and not desert. 

[Rimbo 25920]

2 hours ago, Mullet Free said:

Why leak any story that it might not be the Russians unless it really wasn't them?

Because it sells papers.

That's the business journalists are in: To sell papers. The NYTimes is generally better than most, but 

1. that's a very low bar, and

2. they were all in on the "Russia is going to cream Ukraine and there's nothing we can do about it" storyline a year ago and haven't really recovered since.

That's why Fox News does what they do. Or the National Enquirer. Or MSNBC. Their jobs are to sell ad airtime and space.

[MillerEP 30454]

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by MillerEP

[cactusflinthead 27598]

 

[MillerEP 30454]

^Mas protests in Georgia, and the President says she'll veto it

[SL Xpress 7513]

11 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

 

 

"Kotsyubailo was one of the youngest Heroes of Ukraine and received the title in 2021. He defended Ukraine in 2014, when he was 18 years old. In 2015, he became a company commander. He was also the first military volunteer to receive the title of Hero during his lifetime for personal courage shown in the defense of state sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Ukraine."

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/13963

 

Spoiler

Famous Military Commander ‘Da Vinci’ Dies Near Bakhmut

Dmytro Kotsyubailo was one of the youngest Heroes of Ukraine, receiving the title in 2021. He was nicknamed "Da Vinci" because of his dream to become an artist.

 

by Kyiv Post | March 7, 2023, 8:42 pm

Dmytro 'Da Vinci' Kotsyubailo

 

RELATED TOPICS

• War in Ukraine
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On the evening of March 7, President Volodymyr Zelensky announced that the famous Ukrainian military officer Dmytro Kotsyubailo, known as "Da Vinci", died in the battle near Bakhmut. He was mortally wounded in an enemy attack.

 

"Today, Dmytro 'Da Vinci' Kotsyubailo, Hero of Ukraine, military volunteer, symbol of courage, was killed in action; a fighter of the 67th separate mechanized brigade and commander of a battalion. He was killed in a battle near Bakhmut – a battle for Ukraine," the president wrote.

 

Kotsyubailo was one of the youngest Heroes of Ukraine and received the title in 2021. He defended Ukraine in 2014, when he was 18 years old. In 2015, he became a company commander. He was also the first military volunteer to receive the title of Hero during his lifetime for personal courage shown in the defense of state sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

 

"This is an award for everyone who took up arms in 2014 and who all this time had to call themselves volunteers," Kotsyubailo said at the time.

 

 

 

Zelensky called "Da Vinci" one of those "whose personal history, character, and courage have forever become the history, character, and courage of Ukraine."

 

In an interview with Radio Freedom, Kotsyubailo said that he wanted victory for Ukraine. "As long as there is danger, I consider it my civic duty to protect it with a weapon in hand," said the soldier.

 

He got the nickname "Da Vinci" because of his dream to become an artist.

 

[686 3448]

Good thread talking about the Russian personnel logistical cluster. Reminiscent of One Soldiers War.

[MillerEP 30454]

^Tangently related

[ABSR 5309]

3 hours ago, Mullet Free said:

No. Not especially.

But we do know that this pretty much excludes Russia as the perpetrator of the sabotage. I'd love to know the reason why this story is being released now. Anonymous intelligence sources, through the NYT.

We also know that this was an incredible example of the groupthink that has taken over this conflict. Simply stating that you question the original official narrative immediately led to being told you're "carrying water for Russian bullshit" amongst other insults. No critical thinking at all, just reactionary. All those quotes I highlighted were from just one of our esteemed, know it all posters before the thread was locked. 

That article is a pay/subscription site so I can't read it, if someone wants to post then we can look in more detail.  However, your statement about this as evidence and no Russian involvement seems is based on this statement: "New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year, a step toward determining responsibility for an act of sabotage that has confounded investigators on both sides of the Atlantic for months. "

So "new intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials"....Let's say that Russia sent false "intelligence" or reporting and do you know what we do with that.  We review it.   All sources and their individual reports are given levels of confidence.  But all are reported and all are read and true or not they provide insight.    Need to read the article but does it say U.S. intelligence agencies (named agencies) state that they believe Pro-Ukrainian elements are to blame?  My guess is it doesn't. 

So what we likely have here is Russia or pro-Russian sources sending information to various intel agencies, then leaking or having someone leak that this intelligence exists to a press member who is happy to get a headline story with no work/validation required.   Is it real, fact based....well, based on Russia I would say no.  But definitely not definitive if it is just "reviewed intel".

But again, the article is behind a paywall/subscription wall.  But I did work for awhile in the Intel community.

[MillerEP 30454]

 

[MillerEP 30454]

https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1633099694321594371?s=20

[Parliament 14255]

Hungary's gonna help?  Noice

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

40 minutes ago, ABSR said:

That article is a pay/subscription site so I can't read it, if someone wants to post then we can look in more detail.  However, your statement about this as evidence and no Russian involvement seems is based on this statement: "New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year, a step toward determining responsibility for an act of sabotage that has confounded investigators on both sides of the Atlantic for months. "

So "new intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials"....Let's say that Russia sent false "intelligence" or reporting and do you know what we do with that.  We review it.   All sources and their individual reports are given levels of confidence.  But all are reported and all are read and true or not they provide insight.    Need to read the article but does it say U.S. intelligence agencies (named agencies) state that they believe Pro-Ukrainian elements are to blame?  My guess is it doesn't. 

So what we likely have here is Russia or pro-Russian sources sending information to various intel agencies, then leaking or having someone leak that this intelligence exists to a press member who is happy to get a headline story with no work/validation required.   Is it real, fact based....well, based on Russia I would say no.  But definitely not definitive if it is just "reviewed intel".

But again, the article is behind a paywall/subscription wall.  But I did work for awhile in the Intel community.

Quote

New intelligence reviewed by U.S. officials suggests that a pro-Ukrainian group carried out the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines last year, a step toward determining responsibility for an act of sabotage that has confounded investigators on both sides of the Atlantic for months.

U.S. officials said that they had no evidence President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine or his top lieutenants were involved in the operation, or that the perpetrators were acting at the direction of any Ukrainian government officials.

The brazen attack on the natural gas pipelines, which link Russia to Western Europe, fueled public speculation about who was to blame, from Moscow to Kyiv and London to Washington, and it has remained one of the most consequential unsolved mysteries of Russia’s year-old war in Ukraine.

Ukraine and its allies have been seen by some officials as having the most logical potential motive to attack the pipelines. They have opposed the project for years, calling it a national security threat because it would allow Russia to sell gas more easily to Europe. Ukrainian government and military intelligence officials say they had no role in the attack and do not know who carried it out.

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U.S. officials said there was much they did not know about the perpetrators and their affiliations. The review of newly collected intelligence suggests they were opponents of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, but does not specify the members of the group, or who directed or paid for the operation. U.S. officials declined to disclose the nature of the intelligence, how it was obtained or any details of the strength of the evidence it contains. They have said that there are no firm conclusions about it, leaving open the possibility that the operation might have been conducted off the books by a proxy force with connections to the Ukrainian government or its security services.

Some initial U.S. and European speculation centered on possible Russian culpability, especially given its prowess in undersea operations, though it is unclear what motivation the Kremlin would have in sabotaging the pipelines given that they have been an important source of revenue and a means for Moscow to exert influence over Europe. One estimate put the cost of repairing the pipelines starting at about $500 million. U.S. officials say they have not found any evidence of involvement by the Russian government in the attack.

Officials who have reviewed the intelligence said they believed the saboteurs were most likely Ukrainian or Russian nationals, or some combination of the two. U.S. officials said no American or British nationals were involved.

The pipelines were ripped apart by deep sea explosions in September, in what U.S. officials described at the time as an act of sabotage. European officials have publicly said they believe the operation that targeted Nord Stream was probably state sponsored, possibly because of the sophistication with which the perpetrators planted and detonated the explosives on the floor of the Baltic Sea without being detected. U.S. officials have not stated publicly that they believe the operation was sponsored by a state.

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The explosives were most likely planted with the help of experienced divers who did not appear to be working for military or intelligence services, U.S. officials who have reviewed the new intelligence said. But it is possible that the perpetrators received specialized government training in the past.

Officials said there were still enormous gaps in what U.S. spy agencies and their European partners knew about what transpired. But officials said it might constitute the first significant lead to emerge from several closely guarded investigations, the conclusions of which could have profound implications for the coalition supporting Ukraine.

The State of the War
Bakhmut: Ukraine’s top generals want to bolster the defenses of the embattled city, signaling that they would pursue a strategy of bleeding the Russian army in a battle of attrition rather than retreat.
Action in the Skies: Against the odds, Ukraine’s helicopter brigades are using aging vehicles to fight a better equipped adversary.
Arming the World: As traditional weapons suppliers like the United States face wartime production shortages, South Korea has stepped in to fill the gap by arming Ukraine’s allies — but not Ukraine itself, to try to avoid provoking Russia.
Any suggestion of Ukrainian involvement, whether direct or indirect, could upset the delicate relationship between Ukraine and Germany, souring support among a German public that has swallowed high energy prices in the name of solidarity.

Image
A circle of gas bubbles in the middle of the Baltic Sea.
This photo released by the Danish military in September shows gas bubbles from the Nord Stream 2 leak reaching the surface of the Baltic Sea, near the Danish island of Bornholm.Credit...Danish Defense Ministry, via Reuters
U.S. officials who have been briefed on the intelligence are divided about how much weight to put on the new information. All of them spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss classified intelligence and matters of sensitive diplomacy.

Story continues below advertisement

U.S. officials said the new intelligence reporting has increased their optimism that American spy agencies and their partners in Europe can find more information, which could allow them to reach a firm conclusion about the perpetrators. It is unclear how long that process will take. American officials recently discussed the intelligence with their European counterparts, who have taken the lead in investigating the attack.

A spokeswoman for the C.I.A. declined to comment. A spokesman for the White House’s National Security Council referred questions about the pipelines to the European authorities, who have been conducting their own investigations.

Image
Stacks of pipes laying in a field.
Pipes from Nord Stream 2 work in Sassnitz, Germany.Credit...Laetitia Vancon for The New York Times
Nord Stream 1 and Nord Stream 2, as the two pipelines are known, stretch 760 miles from the northwest coast of Russia to Lubmin in northeast Germany. The first cost more than $12 billion to build and was completed in 2011.

Nord Stream 2 cost slightly less than the first pipeline and was completed in 2021, over objections from officials in the United States, Britain, Poland and Ukraine, among others, who warned that it would increase German reliance on Russian gas. During a future diplomatic crisis between the West and Russia, these officials argued, Moscow could blackmail Berlin by threatening to curtail gas supplies, on which the Germans had depended heavily, especially during the winter months. (Germany has weaned itself off reliance on Russian gas over the past year.)

Early last year, President Biden, after meeting with Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany at the White House, said Mr. Putin’s decision about whether to attack Ukraine would determine the fate of Nord Stream 2. “If Russia invades, that means tanks and troops crossing the border of Ukraine again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2,” Mr. Biden said. “We will bring an end to it.”

What we consider before using anonymous sources. Do the sources know the information? What’s their motivation for telling us? Have they proved reliable in the past? Can we corroborate the information? Even with these questions satisfied, The Times uses anonymous sources as a last resort. The reporter and at least one editor know the identity of the source.

Learn more about our process.
When asked exactly how that would be accomplished, Mr. Biden cryptically said, “I promise you we’ll be able to do it.”

Image
President Biden and the German chancellor, Olaf Scholz, sitting in front of a fireplace in the Oval Office, while wearing suits and masks.
President Biden met with Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany at the White House in 2022.Credit...Al Drago for The New York Times
A couple weeks later, Mr. Scholz announced that his government would block the Nord Stream 2 pipeline from becoming operational. Two days after that, Russia launched the much-anticipated invasion.

Since the explosions along the pipelines in September, there has been rampant speculation about what transpired on the sea floor near the Danish island of Bornholm.

Poland and Ukraine immediately accused Russia of planting the explosives, but they offered no evidence.

Russia, in turn, accused Britain of carrying out the operation — also without evidence. Russia and Britain have denied any involvement in the explosions.

Last month, the investigative journalist Seymour Hersh published an article on the newsletter platform Substack concluding that the United States carried out the operation at the direction of Mr. Biden. In making his case, Mr. Hersh cited the president’s preinvasion threat to “bring an end” to Nord Stream 2, and similar statements by other senior U.S. officials.

U.S. officials say Mr. Biden and his top aides did not authorize a mission to destroy the Nord Stream pipelines, and they say there was no U.S. involvement.

Image
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky sitting in a chair and holding a microphone, while a member of the military stands in the foreground.
U.S. officials said they did not believe that President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, his top lieutenants or other parts of the government were aware of or involved in the sabotage.Credit...Roman Pilipey/Getty Images
Any findings that put blame on Kyiv or Ukrainian proxies could prompt a backlash in Europe and make it harder for the West to maintain a united front in support of Ukraine.

U.S. officials and intelligence agencies acknowledge that they have limited visibility into Ukrainian decision-making.

Despite Ukraine’s deep dependence on the United States for military, intelligence and diplomatic support, Ukrainian officials are not always transparent with their American counterparts about their military operations, especially those against Russian targets behind enemy lines. Those operations have frustrated U.S. officials, who believe that they have not measurably improved Ukraine’s position on the battlefield, but have risked alienating European allies and widening the war.

The operations that have unnerved the United States included a strike in early August on Russia’s Saki Air Base on the western coast of Crimea, a truck bombing in October that destroyed part of the Kerch Strait Bridge, which links Russia to Crimea, and drone strikes in December aimed at Russian military bases in Ryazan and Engels, about 300 miles beyond the Ukrainian border.

But there have been other acts of sabotage and violence of more ambiguous provenance that U.S. intelligence agencies have had a harder time attributing to Ukrainian security services.

One of those was a car bomb near Moscow in August that killed Daria Dugina, the daughter of a prominent Russian nationalist.

Kyiv denied any involvement but U.S. intelligence agencies eventually came to believe that the killing was authorized by what officials called “elements” of the Ukrainian government. In response to the finding, the Biden administration privately rebuked the Ukrainians and warned them against taking similar actions.

The explosions that ruptured the Nord Stream pipelines took place five weeks after Ms. Dugina’s killing. After the Nord Stream operation, there was hushed speculation — and worry — in Washington that parts of the Ukrainian government might have been involved in that operation as well.

Image
A photo of Darya Dugina hangs above a casket as people pass. 
A car bomb near Moscow killed Daria Dugina in August. U.S. intelligence agencies believe that the killing was authorized by what officials called “elements” of the Ukrainian government.Credit...Maxim Shemetov/Reuters
The new intelligence provided no evidence so far of the Ukrainian government’s complicity in the attack on the pipelines, and U.S. officials say the Biden administration’s level of trust in Mr. Zelensky and his senior national security team has been steadily increasing.

Days after the explosion, Denmark, Sweden and Germany began their own separate investigations into the Nord Stream operation.

Intelligence and law enforcement agencies on both sides of the Atlantic have had difficulty obtaining concrete evidence about what happened on the sea floor in the hours, days and weeks before the explosions.

The pipelines themselves were not closely monitored, by either commercial or government sensors. Moreover, finding the vessel or vessels involved has been complicated by the fact that the explosions took place in a heavily trafficked area.

That said, investigators have many leads to pursue.

Image
A worker wearing a hard hat and a red jump suit next to a pipe.
A specialist aboard a ship preparing a Nord Stream 2 pipe to be laid in 2019. The pipelines were ripped apart by deep sea explosions in September.Credit...Stine Jacobsen/Reuters
According to a European lawmaker briefed late last year by his country’s main foreign intelligence service, investigators have been gathering information about an estimated 45 “ghost ships” whose location transponders were not on or were not working when they passed through the area, possibly to cloak their movements.

The lawmaker was also told that more than 1,000 pounds of “military grade” explosives were used by the perpetrators.

Spokespeople for the Danish government had no immediate comment. Spokespeople for the German government declined to comment.

Mats Ljungqvist, a senior prosecutor leading Sweden’s investigation, told The New York Times late last month that his country’s hunt for the perpetrators was continuing.

“It’s my job to find those who blew up Nord Stream. To help me, I have our country’s Security Service,” Mr. Ljungqvist said. “Do I think it was Russia that blew up Nord Stream? I never thought so. It’s not logical. But as in the case of a murder, you have to be open to all possibilities.”

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by SmokeyTheBear

[atomheartbevo 89649]

4 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

I would also question the writer as they claim 1) Ukraine had a lot of incentive to see the pipeline destroyed, and 2) Russia had no motive to do so. You can quibble about the first point, but there's no debate the second is untrue. 

3 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Those were my quotes. I stand by them. An anonymous report in the NYT with no description of new information isn't going to convince me otherwise. Especially when the author of the article in question apparently can't fathom how Russia would benefit from destroying an unused pipeline when it immediately 1) blamed the UK, Ukraine, and the west, and 2) offered to increase production from the operating pipelines in exchange for a reduction in sanctions. 

Yeah, Russia immediately rushed to take advantage of it, which made everybody's spider-sense tingle.

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

If this does turn out to be Ukraine-gov linked it was a serious mistake on their part. 

The thing is, they had no need to do it - those pipelines were going to be shut down (or not becoming operational) through sanctions, and Ukraine knew it.  Germany, etc., were already making noise about getting off of Russian oil and gas (and they did so far faster than anybody expected).

[SimonBolivar 10958]

49 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Hungary's gonna help?  Noice

[Anastasis 23469]

Approach most anything related to intelligence leaks and matters printed by the stenographers at the NYT with extreme skepticism. Your energy as you read is best spent trying to read between the lines on who the sources are, trying to understand what the motivations may be behind the leak, and what actions or political perceptions they are trying to achieve. Taking that kind of approach can help keep you out of the propaganda trap of things like the Russian bounty story and countless other examples going back to Iraq and long before.  

Edited March 7, 2023 by Anastasis

[MillerEP 30454]

 

[Laxtonto 12080]

 

[Macanudo 12976]

The idea that Russia had no reason to blow the pipeline is bullshit.    Doing so and then blaming everyone else is exactly why they might have done it.

[MillerEP 30454]

 

[Gatorubet 30211]

Quote

“What’s also crucial is that things like parallel import or sometimes even import through contraband or counterfeit do not engage good people. These people are dealing with the black market, they are semi-criminals. But the state cannot go against them because these people now become absolutely crucial for the maintenance of certain types of production.

So eventually you might end up with a state which is essentially being taken over by the semi-criminal gang. I think this effect of sanctions is very important but not really studied or pointed out.”

While Russia has always been a semi-criminal gang, certainly their influence may have waxed and waned. This is an interesting point. To what extent does the Russian mob gain power during the war? I have no earthly idea about any of these politics.

[SL Xpress 7513]

8 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

While Russia has always been a semi-criminal gang, certainly their influence may have waxed and waned. This is an interesting point. To what extent does the Russian mob gain power during the war? I have no earthly idea about any of these politics.

To me that's exactly what Putin and his cronies - FSB and otherwise (oligarchs) - are. They're flat out mobsters. Mobsters don't "gain" power if they're already in control. It's just different mobsters gaining more power. 

[Rimbo 25920]

1 hour ago, Laxtonto said:

 

[Deej 76759]

7 hours ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

 

[atomheartbevo 89649]

10 minutes ago, Deej said:

If they re resorting to criminals for the regular Russian military, and not just Wagner, it makes me wonder about their actual manpower pool that they can draw from.  In theory, criminals are going to chafe under military rules since they can’t even function in civilian society.

Or it’s a sign they are trying to avoid hitting up the larger cities,

[Foosters 17850]

19 hours ago, Gravy Train said:

They legit used maps that were published prior to 1986 and had no idea of the containment area.

I met my 'Ukrainian brother' tonight in Dallas, an old colleague I've kept up with on LinkedIn, who now is the CEO of a Ukraine based software development firm. He's in town to prospect clients, but as a condition of his exit, he must return with an article of significant aid to his country.

I bought him a beef rib and beers from Terry Black's BBQ. We probably spent three hours catching up on life and the conflict he deals with on a daily basis. Fortunately, he and his family are safe in Lviv, but he did have to move from Kherson a year ago and his brother was left behind.

I'm gonna forget all the talking points and perspectives and some may come back to me. I gotta check on some things at home before I post, and he's inspired me to make a visit soon. If I do, I'm best to smuggle in any high dollar medical equipment needed on the front lines.

PM me before you go. My dad has been making monthly trips to Lviv and is working with Texas Children's Hospital to not only assist refugees here, but also assist Ukrainian hospitals over there. Also have connections with some guys making supply runs deeper into Ukraine.

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

9 hours ago, blacklab said:

Thanks DDD

There's several good posts on this thread that veer into politics for a part so I'm hesitant to delete them.

If your post includes "no cr but", "lefty", "righty", "one party", "Tucker Carlson" please take that part of your post to CR. 

Certainly agree with most of your post but are there any entertainers besides Tucker Carlson that are verboten in this thread? We should be free to call out any bullshit he says, just like if Rachel Maddow or Anderson Cooper or some other dipshit makes stupid statements about the war.

[blacklab 11926]

Yeah, pretty much everyone on the opinionated news channels such as fox, msnbc, or on a show that's mostly opinion/politics.

This thread is for news about Ukraine, not opinions on US politics. 

Fine: Biden signs bill giving $x in aid.

Take to CR: Biden/Tucker Carlson/Trump/your team/one party is an idiot for doing X

[The Dog 44020]

 

[statsman 5457]

Honestly, I didn’t even remember the 2008 Russia-Georgia War. I imagine I was distracted by the US economic crisis and the presidential election. It was a rehearsal for 2014 Ukraine. Georgia is small, I guess, bordered by Russia and Turkey, and nobody really wanted to respond. 
 
The west blew it there and has been paying the piper since. Oddly, this might be the best time for Georgia to push back. 

[The Dog 44020]

5 minutes ago, statsman said:

Honestly, I didn’t even remember the 2008 Russia-Georgia War. I imagine I was distracted by the US economic crisis and the presidential election. It was a rehearsal for 2014 Ukraine. Georgia is small, I guess, bordered by Russia and Turkey, and nobody really wanted to respond. 
 
The west blew it there and has been paying the piper since. Oddly, this might be the best time for Georgia to push back. 

Don’t fuck with the Georgian Legion.

[Brisketexan 105095]

Don’t fuck with the Georgian Legion.

Well, yeah. I mean…they’re just good ole boys….

[BamaATL 16593]

I've seen a longer version of this, but to place some context in Georgia (oh, and reason 987 to say fuck you to Russia)

 

[BamaATL 16593]

Found the other one worth a watch

 

[atomheartbevo 89649]

32 minutes ago, statsman said:

Honestly, I didn’t even remember the 2008 Russia-Georgia War. I imagine I was distracted by the US economic crisis and the presidential election. It was a rehearsal for 2014 Ukraine. Georgia is small, I guess, bordered by Russia and Turkey, and nobody really wanted to respond. 
 
The west blew it there and has been paying the piper since. Oddly, this might be the best time for Georgia to push back. 

And Russia maybe starting shit in Georgia now as a distraction for the West and/or Russian civilians

Because Georgia is part of the "post-Soviet space"

 

[atomheartbevo 89649]

There's a lot of talk about not pulling out of Bakhmut because the Russians have hit a wall with logistics/ammo, and their gains from here on out will be minimal (and because it's tying up a lot of Russian/Wagner troops that could be used elsewhere to counter an offensive or put pressure on Ukraine in another area).

But there's also this bit - a retreat would be tough right now.

 

[statsman 5457]

Damn, I wish we could give Ukraine an AC-130 for Bakhmut. 

[Scheiss Meister 8407]

8 minutes ago, statsman said:

Damn, I wish we could give Ukraine an AC-130 for Bakhmut. 

With MANPADS, it would be a smoking hole in the ground before it opened fire.  Nice sentiment, though.

[BamaATL 16593]

1 minute ago, Scheiss Meister said:

With MANPADS, it would be a smoking hole in the ground before it opened fire.  Nice sentiment, though.

If we were to do anything, and I am not suggesting that we will, but a few stealth cruise missile strikes wouldn't hurt my feelings in the slightest.