Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[Dahobbs 17408]

20 minutes ago, Slacks said:

I said I wasn't trying to validate someone's twitter status... never said i wouldn't try to better understand what's really what. that's what you decided i said.

one statement from twitter juxtaposed to the surly thread predominant statement... has turned me into a russian propagandist.

this is actually a pretty interesting human experiment that i've stumbled into by accident. the parallels to other historical situations are kinda interesting, but do not have a place in this thread.

I didn't call you a propagandist. I called you a useful idiot, which is what you were being. If you want to get a good understanding of the truth, I've provided you as much information as I can to direct you to good sources for your own research. If you elect not to and continue to declare that the truth must be somewhere in the middle, then yes, you're continuing to be a useful idiot, which is an actual part of Russia's disinformation strategy. It aims to throw out so much disinformation that the good information gets buried and people decide they cannot identify the truth. If your solution to that problem is to just assume the answer is somewhere in the middle, then you're already shifting everything to Russia's benefit based on how extreme its position is. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Dahobbs

[HOOKEM4 5007]

Holy fuck slacks. Stop digging dude.

[MissingInAction 24746]

[bolverk 29261]

Really excellent long-form read from The Atlantic's Anne Applebaum and Jeffrey Goldberg, making the case that the future of much of the democratic world lies in Ukraine. Y'all should be able to get past the paywall.

https://archive.ph/JiBEl

 

Edit: h/t to @Hornius Emeritus for pointing out this article elsewhere.

Edited May 1, 2023 by bolverk

[bolverk 29261]

4 hours ago, Rimbo said:

:gritty:

 

3 hours ago, KYHorn said:

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

Has that been verified?

 

 

2 hours ago, Jameslaw121 said:

NSC Spokesman Joh Kirby said 80K wounded 20K KIA

 

@Slacks This exchange above between Surly posters and our Twitter follows provides you with an excellent example of how we, as a Surly collective and our "good" sources, are trying to suss out the truth in what's going on over there. If you don't want to search out names, ask. We'll tell you whom to follow so you don't have to go looking.

 

Edit: Most of us other than a couple of posters are acting in good faith with our links.

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by bolverk

[Bevo 13468]

25 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Really excellent long-form read from The Atlantic's Anne Applebaum and Jeffrey Goldberg, making the case that the future of much of the democratic world lies in Ukraine. Y'all should be able to get past the paywall.

https://archive.ph/JiBEl

 

Edit: h/t to @Hornius Emeritus for pointing out this article elsewhere.

I read that as Jeff Goldblum. I assume they are different people. Because what the hell would the guy in The Fly know about Ukraine?

[bolverk 29261]

2 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I read that as Jeff Goldblum. I assume they are different people. Because what the hell would the guy in The Fly know about Ukraine?

[MillerEP 30311]

 

[MillerEP 30311]

 

[Ghost of LL 15327]

3 hours ago, statsman said:

This forum paints a picture that, in my opinion, leans too optimistic.
 
 

Which, judging by literally every game thread, season thread, realignment discussion, and recruiting evaluation, is wildly out of character for this site.

[Armybrat 40648]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

We've made up with them and then some.

We recently held a ceremony honoring some Americans and Brits who fought in the Revolution, and they will be buried together (unless the Brits repatriate them).  

 

Interesting.

One of my direct ancestors took part in that fight…on the Continental side of course.

[MillerEP 30311]

 

[Shaddie 1634]

6 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Interesting.

One of my direct ancestors took part in that fight…on the Continental side of course.

So how did uncle Millie fair in the war. I’m sure he was a little older by the time you met him. 

[MillerEP 30311]

Saw the NFKRZ video earlier today where he goes unto Yandex's food delivery service (Russia's version of DoorDash/Instacart), and he compared food prices today from 1 month into the war and it was eye opening how sharp food prices went up inside Russia.

[Laxtonto 11901]

 

[atomheartbevo 89304]

14 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

One of my direct ancestors took part in that fight…on the Continental side of course.

Your dad served in the Aleutians in WWII, so I'm assuming it was your grandfather or great-grandfather?

[The Dog 43716]

1 hour ago, Slacks said:

FWIW, original post was taken way out of context... I just kept on going because this is surly and personal attacks are a way of life.

[MillerEP 30311]

 

[texasdago 7544]

16 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

 

I love that one guy's smirk during the answer 

[dimyh 1874]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I can understand frustration on the one hand, as this is a war that is the most “online” in history while at the same time, the nature of the conflict and the opponents mean that deception and obfuscation and secrecy will play a major role. For Ukraine, maskirovaka is a matter of national survival. For Russia, what began as a tactic has not also become, at least in part, an issue of regime survival. 
 

If you’ve followed the GWOT, you can get frustrated about Ukraine’s lack of clarity on casualties, but if you accept that this is a war of survival where the information theater is an area of active combat, you can see why that information isn’t coming. But anyone should be able to grasp that questions like “how many missiles does Russia have left” is one that isn’t easily answered and the people who might know aren’t going to tell. 
 

But if you care enough to post and do Twitter searches, but don’t care enough to find out who might be reliable, you’re not engaging honestly. 

This era of drone and satelite intel is quite amazing. I shudder to think what D-Day would have been like if the Nazis had the reconnaissance tech of today. Maybe we would have taken Normandy but with 5x the casualty rate. Maybe we don't get to meet the Soviets in Berlin and all of Germany becomes East Germany. Lotta what ifs we could play with all day long. It will be interesting to see how modern armies adapt for major offenses when the fog of war can be so thin nowadays.

Which is why I'm so anxious waiting for this next phase to kickoff.

 

[NeverMarryAStripper 21780]

22 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

 

The world would be a better place if Russia's father had pulled out

[Gatorubet 30023]

2 hours ago, Slacks said:

aaaaaah, my bad.  i wasn't trying to be precise with 'middle'. if you will allow, I yield to that point and suggest reading "in the middle" as "somewhere in between". 

 

 

Gotcha.  No problemo.  

The news of the massive influx of bombers followed by “they got them all” followed by news a few got by and Putin killed more civilians was just bad timing for your post.  Everyone was on edge.  We good. 

[MillerEP 30311]

 

[Armybrat 40648]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

I read that as Jeff Goldblum. I assume they are different people. Because what the hell would the guy in The Fly know about Ukraine?

Well, he might have a lot of buddies on many walls everywhere.

[bolverk 29261]

40 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

 

Came here to post that one. The follow-up tweet gives the location for those who didn't click through.

 

[atomheartbevo 89304]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

If you’ve followed the GWOT, you can get frustrated about Ukraine’s lack of clarity on casualties, but if you accept that this is a war of survival where the information theater is an area of active combat, you can see why that information isn’t coming. But anyone should be able to grasp that questions like “how many missiles does Russia have left” is one that isn’t easily answered and the people who might know aren’t going to tell. 

1 hour ago, Slacks said:

aaaaaah, my bad.  i wasn't trying to be precise with 'middle'. if you will allow, I yield to that point and suggest reading "in the middle" as "somewhere in between". 

Like I said, if Russia was doing well, they wouldn't have spent the last 8 months trying to capture the 66th largest city in Ukraine, a city the size of San Marcos, and still not have captured it.

And more importantly, if Russia had done as well as their state media and propaganda bots/groups claims, they'd be releasing indisputable evidence to back it up left and right.  They'd be screaming from the rooftops and just plastering it everywhere.  It's like when the Apollo-deniers claim we didn't land on the moon, and they don't stop to think that  "if we didn't, the Soviets would have made damned sure the entire world knew about it."  Instead, what the Russians release about Ukraine is usually poorly edited/ambiguous videos, with lots of fakes mixed in, that show us very little that is verifiable.

And keep in mind the OS INT folks are usually the first ones to confirm where the Russians have had some success - they aren't shy about picking apart and verifying Russian claims.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11777]

3 hours ago, Slacks said:

 

 

 

 

of all the shit that has been thrown into this 1200+ reply thread, you've locked up on me not wanting to go through profiles and names on twitter to try to validate what's what.

seriously, even if I did look into the post history of everyone on twitter, what would I gain? it's twitter. anybody can say whatever they want and there will be a hoard of followers (believers, if you like.)

and really, you don't think the truth is closer to something other than two vastly different takes? that is how the actual bullshit we endure gets started - by people not being able to even consider their 'side' might be rolling out a bit of hyperbole (or lies). of course i find the russian info less likely, but calling out the dichotomy shouldn't make people so pissy.

i've been called suspicious without merit before, so this does not surprise me one bit.

 

The earth is round.  The earth is flat.  Two vastly different takes.  The truth is not somewhere in between, one viewpoint is full of bullshit and lies.  

[Armybrat 40648]

59 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Your dad served in the Aleutians in WWII, so I'm assuming it was your grandfather or great-grandfather?

A couple more greats…..

Quote

His son Jacob became a Patriot volunteer, on October 10, 1777 at the young age of 14. Jacob entered the service of the South Carolina militia under the command of General Rutherford and went off to fight in the war.

Jake died in 1848.

[Gatorubet 30023]

Dammit Slacks, you being reasonable and sane ruined what would have been a really decent “in between” bit

 

[Orange&White 5516]

To slacks credit, the truth actually is somewhere between the two sides presented here and all around social media.

It just happens to be similar to the way the number two is somewhere between one and one thousand.

[Rimbo 25705]

1 minute ago, Orange&White said:

To slacks credit, the truth actually is somewhere between the two sides presented here and all around social media.

It just happens to be similar to the way the number two is somewhere between one and one thousand.

I mean there's definitely been a bit of sunshine pumping. Let's be honest.

But, yes, your analogy is perfect. It's a two or three between 1 and 1000.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11777]

2 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I mean there's definitely been a bit of sunshine pumping. Let's be honest.

But, yes, your analogy is perfect. It's a two or three between 1 and 1000.

There’s a grain of truth in every pound of propaganda.  If you taste it you will likely choke on it.  

[0xdeadbeef 1617]

25 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Dammit Slacks, you being reasonable and sane ruined what would have been a really decent “in between” bit

 

 

It is 100% true that the Allies and German Army fought on the same side. (*)

 

 

 

 

(*) In two known cases very late in the war, at the Battle of Castle Itter and Operation Cowboy, the German Regular Army joined in with Allied forces against the Waffen-SS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Castle_Itter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cowboy

[MissingInAction 24746]

 

 

[Rimbo 25705]

1 hour ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

There’s a grain of truth in every pound of propaganda.  If you taste it you will likely choke on it.  

speaking of choking on grains of things, my cat tried to eat some of the clumping kitty litter outside her litter box this morning

 

she is not a terribly smart animal

[Slacks 6788]

1 hour ago, Orange&White said:

To slacks credit, the truth actually is somewhere between the two sides presented here and all around social media.

It just happens to be similar to the way the number two is somewhere between one and one thousand.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21780]

To be fair the Russian propaganda consists mostly of number 2

[Slacks 6788]

19 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

To be fair the Russian propaganda consists mostly of number 2

I usually read this thread while doing #2. May explain... Something. 

[Schulz2.0 28710]

 

[atomheartbevo 89304]

4 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

People are saying that video is older because Leonid Gozman fled Russia in September.  That it could be quite a bit older.  I think if it was recent, he would have been killed over that, and it may not have even aired - this may have been smuggled out to somebody, because Russian state TV does not typically air their shows live, for reasons like this.  Everything is approved/scripted beforehand.

[The Dog 43716]

[MagicSoccerSpray 1725]

 

[Schulz2.0 28710]

 

[Schulz2.0 28710]

 

[Schulz2.0 28710]

14 hours ago, dimyh said:

Fair points in the above and I agree in general that this is not a huge paradigm shift. However this one of the first publicly documented instances where the Putin and Xi "friendship without limits" is clearly subordinate to China's interests. China is clearly signaling that the European market is of much more value than the Russian market. And that's got to add to Putin's pucker factor going forward.

 

[KYHorn 16751]

15 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Ultimately, here's what it comes down to for me:  If the Russians were having any kind of major success as of late, we would have seen it by now.  We would have seen the lines moving on maps, we would have seen them taking cities and retaking Kherson and Kharkiv and a few other areas.

Instead, we are watching a battle that has been going on for 8 months, where Russia has been desperately trying to take the 66th largest city in Ukraine, about the size of San Marcos, and they can't fucking do it.

That gives off a pretty good impression that the Russians are in trouble.

 

14 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

 

[The Dog 43716]

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

[AUS-97HORN 11644]

Man I absolutely love when the Ruskies go cold war lies.  Thats when you know they are in deep shit

[Bevo 13468]

9 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

He had to have choked on someone's chicken. It is the only way.