Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[atomheartbevo 89751]

 

[MillerEP 30492]

1 hour ago, texastough said:

If you accept that nobody is going to invade Russia, even if its military is wiped off the map in Ukraine -- short of that, the free world should be focusing on de-nuking Russia. Maintain sanctions and starve the entire country until complete denuclearization. 

^Yep this exactly! They've proven they are not responsible actors with them (constantly threatening the world with them and using them as blackmail), so the rest of the world should give them every incentive to denuclearize.
 

As a thought experiment though, some of the Eastern European countries could technically band together and form a "coalition of the willing" like the US did in the Iraq war and go to war without NATO, as a non-NATO operation. I'm not sure of the feasibility of it or the backlash, but there technically is precedence there, I think Italy and France have unilaterally done some "peacekeeping" missions in Africa without all the bother. 

[Rimbo 26015]

50 minutes ago, Grade of D as in David said:

If Russia wants buffer states they can concede their own fucking land for them.

 

44 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

I think that's exactly what he's saying

More or less.

The point is to know your enemy to be able to defeat him.

[PTINS 3472]

[BamaATL 16593]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

Still no signs of Bradleys yet…

Well, with the tow missiles on them you really won't see them, because you will be dead when they hit you from about 2 miles away.  

[PTINS 3472]

[The Dog 44071]

[PTINS 3472]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

Still no signs of Bradleys yet…

The line at the car wash?

Them boys look ready for a stroll across the plains.

Pasted from one of the threads. More Kool-Aid, please.

[atomheartbevo 89751]

[Gatorubet 30267]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

[Born to Run 6569]

Exactly. Russia’s idea of a security threat is a country that won’t allow themselves to be controlled politically and economically.
Today’s “buffer states” eventually become “security threats” when the people get tired of eating Russian shit sandwiches. So they have to be taken over. Now they are “border regions”. Naturally, these regions need some buffer states for security reasons. This is how Russian imperialism works.
Yes, Russia has been invaded a few times over the last 300 years. Cry me a fucking river. So has everyone else. 

They had Europe by the balls regarding energy and had pushed Germany to ever more reliance on that petro titty while funding propaganda to quit Nuclear, green etc. Dividing Nato and a bunch of CR US meddling. Shit almost worked too. A few elections in a few places changed the calculus and Putin didnt course correct; now it's fucked.

[Born to Run 6569]

 
OK. Let's start from the beginning here.
#1: This is not a Putin thing. It is a Russian thing.
It doesn't matter who is in charge in Moscow. It could be Putin, it could be the Soviets, it could be the Tsar, it could be a liberal democratic institution (ha!), it could be a dried up packet of Sea Monkeys -- any authority in Moscow is going to believe, with a great many centuries' worth of history proving this belief, that their Western border is vulnerable, and the only way (also perceived correctly) to mitigate this risk is to extend that border as far West as possible.
#2: Denying #1 is as much vatnik/tankie/pro-Kremlin bullshit as believing that #1 justifies what Russia has done.
If you deny it, you've opened the door to Russia invading Eastern Europe yet again because you're not going to properly recognize the threat that Moscow will always be towards Eastern Europe. Outside of a literal tectonic shift altering the geography between Moscow and Belgorod, this is a constant that anyone in Moscow will be painfully aware of, no matter how much you or anyone else wants to pretend it's not.
Our choice here is not whether #1 is true or false. It's true, and anyone who says otherwise is hopelessly naive. Our choice, once we've accepted #1 is true, is to decide what we must do about it. Because what it means is...
#3: Because #1 is true, any power in Moscow, no matter what, will always be an existential threat to Europe.
This is what Eastern European states understand that Western European states, and the USA, struggle with. Well, we didn't so much struggle with it under Reagan; Reagan understood the threat, at least to a point. Patton, with his deep knowledge of military history, understood the threat. Poland understands the threat. Ukraine has been under Moscow's yoke for a long, long time, and isn't going to want to be in that position again.
This is why, while I enjoy seeing the Russian rebels hitting Belgorod, the fact that some of them are legit Jew-hating swastika-bearing Nazis doesn't concern me nearly as much as the fact that any new Russian government they found will pose the same threat that Putin's regime did, that Stalin's regime did, that Peter the so-called Great's regime did.
#4: Because of #1 and #3, we should do what Patton said we should've done.
We should put troops on the ground to help Ukraine, and once we get to the Russian border, we should keep going until we hit Moscow.

Sure, because we have a great track record of nation building, hell look just 90 miles off Florida to our dear friends and allies in Cuba. This shit always goes smooth.

I prefer we just make Russia a fixed- boarder pariah state that gets fucked the second they cross the boarder in any direction while living under sanctions and the reality of not having more than 50 year old tanks to even consider trying shit.

[SL Xpress 7517]

Ukraine assault teams are Longhorn fans.

 

[atomheartbevo 89751]

 

[Rimbo 26015]

12 minutes ago, Born to Run said:

Sure, because we have a great track record of nation building, hell look just 90 miles off Florida to our dear friends and allies in Cuba. This shit always goes smooth.

Who said anything about "Nation building?"

What I'm talking about, no building is involved.

[Rimbo 26015]

44 minutes ago, The Dog said:

Ten... brigades?

I mean, I'm all in favor, but that number seems ... high.

[Born to Run 6569]

Who said anything about "Nation building?"
What I'm talking about, no building is involved.

All that hate is gonna burn you up kid.


But also feeling like the Grinch in that Gif above

[Rimbo 26015]

WHY am I sharing this? Oh, no reason.

Although I am a terrible person. Might have something to do with that.

[956 Worldwide 34736]

There’s a ton of optimism floating around Ukraine Twitter and a general acceptance that shit has gone off on Vatnik Twitter and telegram. Will wait to see what’s really happening. 

[SL Xpress 7517]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s a ton of optimism floating around Ukraine Twitter and a general acceptance that shit has gone off on Vatnik Twitter and telegram. Will wait to see what’s really happening. 

It's been a bummer going into the quagmire of the Russian propaganda universe in search of updates. It's impossible to believe anything they're spouting.

On the other hand, there is a pretty "good" video (quality wise) of either artillery or one report said an attack helicopter decimating a few UAF armored vehicles who were stuck in a muddy minefield. 

Just waiting to see what has actually unfolded.

What is clear is that at least one of the more robust attacks towards Tokmak occurred at night, which says to me they were taking advantage of western thermal optics and night vision. 

[956 Worldwide 34736]

Whoever runs this account can fuck off, we’re not like that at all. We’re from Texas. 
 

 

[MagicSoccerSpray 1732]

 

[SL Xpress 7517]

The Lt Col. recently kidnapped and tortured by Wagner who said on video he fired on Wagner forces because he was drunk and angry with them, has released a new video.

I'm sorry guys, but this shit is hilarious. The level of dysfunction is frankly hard to believe. It's stunning Wagner was allowed to get away with this shit..,.but then again, Russia.

 

[SL Xpress 7517]

The kid they dropped the water bottle to on the roof of his house with a drone was saved along with his family. The video doesn't have a translation, but the story is plenty damn cool in cyrillic, too, even though I can't read it. 

 

[SL Xpress 7517]

 

[hookem2010 2624]

I'm glad you guys are here to provide up-to-date information. God forbid American news cover anything going on outside of our borders. JFC.. 

[Schulz2.0 28985]

 

[The Dog 44071]

I have kept quiet on the counteroffensive and this is by design. But I want to say this:

The Russian troops at many parts of the frontline are getting pounded by tubed and rocket artillery, Storm Shadow, JDAMs etc. Sometimes tanks and IFVs join the fray. The long range strikes such as in Tokmak and Melitopol in the last hours are even more interesting. 

Most if not all of that "repelled" attacks Russians claim are in fact them surviving barrage after another one and having a chance to report them. In some limited cases Ukrainian forces launch probing attacks and even get through. There are already permanent liberated areas, but that is not the purpose of probing attacks. 

Those few videos which sometimes appear are almost all videos from Russian sources and obviously cherry-picked. But they are not impressive either. Yes, when an army advances or launches probing attacks there are inevitable losses. During D-Day allies lost 2000 men in the first hour. But the enemy loses far more and, more importantly, the enemy has already to react in a forced way.

The main strike hasn't arrived, yet. It can arrive anywhere and anytime at the front, even areas which have not been intensively shelled. Btw. I'm still on track with my predictions. Russians, however, are currently burning down their limited (mobile) reserves which they have in order to deal with the current situation. Intelligence gathering plays an important role at this stage, too, without going into details.

Overall what I see right now is what I would expect from an Ukrainian counteroffensive. Keep calm and wait for the events to unfold

[Zonahorn 8079]

25 minutes ago, The Dog said:

I have kept quiet on the counteroffensive and this is by design. But I want to say this:

The Russian troops at many parts of the frontline are getting pounded by tubed and rocket artillery, Storm Shadow, JDAMs etc. Sometimes tanks and IFVs join the fray. The long range strikes such as in Tokmak and Melitopol in the last hours are even more interesting. 

Most if not all of that "repelled" attacks Russians claim are in fact them surviving barrage after another one and having a chance to report them. In some limited cases Ukrainian forces launch probing attacks and even get through. There are already permanent liberated areas, but that is not the purpose of probing attacks. 

Those few videos which sometimes appear are almost all videos from Russian sources and obviously cherry-picked. But they are not impressive either. Yes, when an army advances or launches probing attacks there are inevitable losses. During D-Day allies lost 2000 men in the first hour. But the enemy loses far more and, more importantly, the enemy has already to react in a forced way.

The main strike hasn't arrived, yet. It can arrive anywhere and anytime at the front, even areas which have not been intensively shelled. Btw. I'm still on track with my predictions. Russians, however, are currently burning down their limited (mobile) reserves which they have in order to deal with the current situation. Intelligence gathering plays an important role at this stage, too, without going into details.

Overall what I see right now is what I would expect from an Ukrainian counteroffensive. Keep calm and wait for the events to unfold

This is the way

[statsman 5473]

(Trigger warning-this is what bipartisanship looks like: undoubtedly, there will be views expressed with which you vehemently disagree with, not just the value judgment, but the premise that supports the question. I disagree with some of it)

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/wsj-opinion-free-expression/id1609730284?i=1000615931903

Gerry Baker’s podcast interviews a GOP congressman that supports Ukrainian military assistance. 
 
I agree with his concern about Europe stepping up (I am beyond pissed about Macron going to China to make sure the CCP knows that although Europe is supporting Ukraine, the Chinese need to know that Taiwan is not a European concern, so they can still do business), and disagree that US support should be affected by that. 
 
Here is an interesting article about another topic of concern-

Where are the children from the Kherson orphanage? Ukrainians say Russia is removing children as part of an effort to crush Ukrainian culture. 
https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-ukraine-removing-children-orphanage-aa9471ce?st=rwz2k9tsjav1nlm&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

Edited June 8, 2023 by statsman

[Parliament 14270]

Those Leopards Russia allegedly blew up? Mighta been John Deeres. Makes sense, as John Deere started the counteroffensive in the early days of the war.  They helped bring hope to a reeling Ukraine.  Also, Ukraine hasn't deployed any Leopards yet.  Kinda hard to blow them up when they're stil in Germany.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russia-blows-up-farm-equipment-claims-theyre-leopard-tanks

[KYHorn 17104]

He'll be telling this story for the rest of his life and everyone will just think "oh, sure it did, Andriy 🙄"

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by KYHorn

[cactusflinthead 27601]

 

[gmr548 16589]

[/url]

Amazing that even Russian state media starts questioning itself when the only one on their side is Tucker Carlson

[KYHorn 17104]

 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

7 hours ago, Born to Run said:

Sure, because we have a great track record of nation building, hell look just 90 miles off Florida to our dear friends and allies in Cuba. This shit always goes smooth.

I prefer we just make Russia a fixed- boarder pariah state that gets fucked the second they cross the boarder in any direction while living under sanctions and the reality of not having more than 50 year old tanks to even consider trying shit.
 

You sure have a lot of pent up hate for people who are merely seeking to pay honest money for a room and maybe some meals.

[KYHorn 17104]

 

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Read an article this AM that Prigozhin toured Russian cities recently to discuss the war…I guess I just assumed he was hiding out in occupied areas of Ukraine trying not to get killed by Putin or the MoD but I guess he’s able to float freely around Russia? How is that even possible? I clearly don’t understand the dynamics at play in Russia…

[Captainant 27686]

13 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Read an article this AM that Prigozhin toured Russian cities recently to discuss the war…I guess I just assumed he was hiding out in occupied areas of Ukraine trying not to get killed by Putin or the MoD but I guess he’s able to float freely around Russia? How is that even possible? I clearly don’t understand the dynamics at play in Russia…

Imagine the most corrupt, for-sale, and inept version of a country that you can. Now imagine that's been the status quo for a couple hundred years, and been the underlying trend for their whole history. That's Russia. Power and money is what makes things happen. Not laws, not morality, not the will of the people. Just who has the most money and can menance the most people. 

Putin is quickly running short on both of those key resources for russian domestic control. He burned all of his special forces and the training apparatus for them in Bahkmut and other Ukrainian meat grinders - Putin no longer has the means to menace his people

Edited June 8, 2023 by Captainant

[SL Xpress 7517]

Different perspective from a Sweden writer talking about the training the Ukrainians went through with the CV90. It bothers me that the writer calls them tanks, but that's okay. 

Apparently all the trainees were older men, according to the article. I wonder if that's because they were considered the most competent for the training, or it was in part to give them duties as infantry which didn't require as much physical exertion. Probably a combination of the two. UAF can't afford to send people they don't have a high confidence in that can follow the training and apply it on the battlefield. Especially with the more advanced heavy weaponry, which the CV90 is.

Also interesting they're sending a model with an upgraded armor package.

https://www.forsvarsmakten.se/en/news/2023/06/ready-for-the-front/

Spoiler

Ukrainian soldiers ready for the front

Swedish Armed Forces Headquarters – 8 June 2023 kl: 10.03

On 24 February 2022, Russian missiles hit Ukraine. 10 days after the outbreak of the war, the first Swedish shipment of helmets, body armour, rations and light anti-tank weapons reaches Ukraine. A year later, the decision is made to send 50 combat vehicle 90 to Ukraine.
Meet the Ukrainian soldiers who are trained in the systems in secret locations in Sweden and who prepare for the front.

• 1/2

ENLARGE 

In January 2023, the decision is made to send 50 combat vehicle 90 to Ukraine.Photo: Swedish Armed Forces

The Ukrainian soldiers come from all parts of society.Photo: Swedish Armed Forces

A CV90 drives past us in a cloud of gravel, dust and sand. It is followed by another one. And yet another one. There is a smell of dirt, diesel and spring in the air.

“I haven’t set foot in my home village since the war started”, says Oleksandr and looks at me with tired eyes.

Oleksandr looks a lot older than his 40 years. He picks up a pack of cigarettes from the side pocket of the Swedish army coat he is wearing. Underneath he is wearing the Swedish Armed Forces’ green motor overall. Oleksandr has just arrived to a spring-like Sweden from the front in Cherzon in southern Ukraine.

“I worked as a road worker and I had hardly held a weapon before”, he says and lights a cigarette.

He gives the combat vehicle column, some ten vehicles, an empty look. Inside the armoured vehicles are some of Oleksandr’s colleagues who, just like him, have to learn how to use the systems against Russian vehicles, machine guns and helicopters.

“In Cherzon, I was in the infantry. Infantry soldier.”

Oleksandr is not willing to share more than that regarding his experiences at the front. It is easier to talk about life than death.

“My wife and children are still there. I have two daughters, 6 and 8 years old. They are scared of everything that happens and what may happen, but they have enough food and are healthy. That is good.”

“Perekour”, says one of the Swedish interpreters. Cigarette break in Russian. It is time for Oleksandr’s colleagues to have a smoke. Oleksandr climbs one of the vehicles. The exercise continues. When the training is completed he will be a commander of one of the 50 vehicles that Sweden is sending to Ukraine.

Early dawn, 24 February 2022. Russian missiles hit military and civilian targets in a number of locations in Ukraine. At the same time, a ground offensive is launched from various flanks.

Yuryi is 48 years old and an engineer. In fluent English, he tells the story of how the war came to his hometown.

“The missiles hit everywhere, as from nowhere. I grabbed my wife and daughter and ran. I didn’t have time to think, we just got in the car and drove off, as the missiles were falling around us.”

Yuryi shakes his head while he is talking.

“No child should have to experience anything like this.”

Commentators think that the Kremlin expected the attack to be short, intense – and successful. However, old-fashioned strikes and the Ukrainian air defence stopped the Russian lines of vehicles and missiles from reaching their targets. In backyards in villages and cities, pensioners made Molotov cocktails, home-made fire-bombs. At the same time, there were reports of bombed out Ukrainian cities, the rape of civilians and summary executions performed by Russian soldiers. And not before long, the Kiev suburb of Bucha is put on the world map as a blood red stain.

Europe and the world respond to President Zelensky’s appeal for help in the fight against the Russian aggressor. The first Swedish delivery consists of 5 000 helmets, 5 000 body armour, 135 000 rations and 5 000 light anti-tank weapons. Ten days after the start of the war, the Swedish supplies reach Ukraine. Over time, the Swedish pledges for aid grow larger. Sweden promises to train soldiers, and as a result, Swedish instructors take part of the British-led training mission Interflex, where Ukrainian civilians receive basic military training in the UK.

During the autumn and winter of 2022, at the Swedish Government Offices and the Armed Forces Headquarters, top secret discussions are held regarding possible further deliveries. Classified documents reveal Leopard 2 tanks, artillery system Archer and combat vehicle 90. The decision is made in January 2023. Sweden is to send 50 vehicles to Ukraine. The government also promises to deliver the much coveted Archer system. Shortly after, the decision is made to donate tanks. Those who train the personnel, who are otherwise tasked with contributing to the growth of the Swedish Armed Forces by training Swedish conscripts and officers, suddenly receive new followers. On the white name tags, names like Oleksandr, Oleg and Yuryi can be read.

The CV90 instructors Martin and Olof are some of the armed forces employees that have had to make changes in their calendars. They are now standing on a hill watching the Ukrainian soldiers manoeuvre Swedish combat vehicles in the exercise field below. Martin gives instructions on the best ways to use the vehicles and what the drivers need to think about in the various steps of the process. Martin has been here since the beginning of the training mission. Like the other Swedish instructors, he refers to the Ukrainians as his students.

“They are quick learners and incredibly hard-working. They are particularly skilled in the mechanical details. They are not so used to advanced technology, but they learn quickly. Everyone wants to learn and do their best. It is obvious, also when they are tired and have worked for long periods of time.”

Olof, who has also been there since the start adds:

”Some of them have zero experience of combat vehicles or tanks, but many are familiar with the Russian BMP-1. It helps even if our tanks are sharper and much more advanced from a technical point of view.“

Sweden is donating 9040C combat vehicles, which is the model that was previously used by Swedish troops in Liberia and Afghanistan. Compared to the standard model, the 9040C has a higher level of protection. The tanks are equipped with 40-mm automatic cannons, smoke dischargers and machine guns. Open source information claims that the automatic cannon could be used again hovering helicopters at a 4-km distance – indeed a very potent arm in battle.

The interpreter Magnus and the instructor Johannes stand in a large tent. Seated in front of them are some twenty students, most of them around 50 years of age, all of them men. Magnus explains in Russian what Johannes is saying as Johannes demonstrates how to operate the automatic cannon. The training is held at a high pace. There are many steps in the process that must be practiced until the students manage them when they leave Sweden.

“The challenge for us as instructors is to teach the steps to be taken inside the tank. In order to learn, the student needs hands-on experience and a chance to test the equipment. With such little room inside the tanks and a large number of students who need to learn, it takes time. The more large-scale handling of the vehicles, such as driving in the field, is easier of course”, says Johannes.

I monitor the Ukrainian students’ training and return several times to firing ranges and exercise fields. The strong morale of the students is subtly expressed as focused tunnel vision, to allow them to learn as much as possible about the systems, no more than that. Most of them probably do not want to think about the fact that every day brings them closer to death and the killing. In a certain way, this is their break from the war. They can call home and sleep well without fear of air alerts and shooting. They get hot food, cold soda, potato chips, cigarettes and professional dental and medical care. The rest will be dealt with later, on location.

Yuryi says that he knows what he will face when he returns despite the fact that he has never fought in a war earlier.

“I have lived side by side with the war and I’ve seen what war does to you. Of course I am scared but I try to suppress my feelings.”

He continues:

“Of course I would like the war to end today, but that’s not going to happen. I think, or know, that I will have to kill. Any other thought is self-deception. The combat vehicles will be used in the middle of the battlefield. We will be at the centre of it.”

When I meet the students a few weeks later, spring has turned into summer. Driving exercises have been followed by live firing, tactics, mechanics and repair lessons. Fine caliber firing is heard in the firing range today. In the shade under the trees, in the midst of anemones in full bloom, a group of tank commanders eat their lunch, soup with vegetables, sausage and sour cream served with bread.

“This is the same food as in Ukraina. Borscht. The Russians claim that it’s a Russian dish, but that’s wrong. It’s a Ukrainian dish. They even try to steal our national dish”, says one of the commanders.

In the large tent, focus is on medical care, and a last check-up of the tanks. They will soon be on the road through Europe towards the front. Tank commanders, drivers and firers have now formed competent battle units. Thanks to the joint exercise they are now much more coordinated than when I met them the first time.

In the tent, I find Oleksandr and his group. Together with Swedish personnel, they are putting a masking net on a vehicle. This is one of the last steps before transportation. Yuryi is there as well. We greet each other. Yuryi claps his hand hard on the armoured vehicle they working on.

“We are ready”, he says.

This is the last time I see them. A few days later they are on their way to the front.

In Sweden, the lilacs are in full bloom. Soon, it will be midsummer.

* For security reasons, all names are fictitious.

 

[956 Worldwide 34736]

We can now talk about the counter-offensive as underway. There’s going to be much garbage, intentional and unintentional, in the information space. 
 

God speed and slava ukrainii.

 

[The Dog 44071]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s going to be much garbage, intentional and unintentional, in the information space. 

exhibit A:

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Imagine the most corrupt, for-sale, and inept version of a country that you can. Now imagine that's been the status quo for a couple hundred years, and been the underlying trend for their whole history. That's Russia. Power and money is what makes things happen. Not laws, not morality, not the will of the people. Just who has the most money and can menance the most people. 

Putin is quickly running short on both of those key resources for russian domestic control. He burned all of his special forces and the training apparatus for them in Bahkmut and other Ukrainian meat grinders - Putin no longer has the means to menace his people

To use an analogy, I think about a brood of chickens that immediately attack and kill a chicken that is maimed or otherwise poses a threat to the rest of them.

Is Putin’s weakness not a threat to the others? I’ve heard folks argue that he’s not a threat, but rather the only thing protecting the elite and their hordes of cash. But I’m not sure I buy that. 

At what point do they decide their future is brighter with Putin eliminated?

[BamaATL 16593]

14 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Different perspective from a Sweden writer talking about the training the Ukrainians went through with the CV90. It bothers me that the writer calls them tanks, but that's okay. 

Apparently all the trainees were older men, according to the article. I wonder if that's because they were considered the most competent for the training, or it was in part to give them duties as infantry which didn't require as much physical exertion. Probably a combination of the two. UAF can't afford to send people they don't have a high confidence in that can follow the training and apply it on the battlefield. Especially with the more advanced heavy weaponry, which the CV90 is.

Also interesting they're sending a model with an upgraded armor package.

https://www.forsvarsmakten.se/en/news/2023/06/ready-for-the-front/

  Reveal hidden contents

Ukrainian soldiers ready for the front

Swedish Armed Forces Headquarters – 8 June 2023 kl: 10.03

On 24 February 2022, Russian missiles hit Ukraine. 10 days after the outbreak of the war, the first Swedish shipment of helmets, body armour, rations and light anti-tank weapons reaches Ukraine. A year later, the decision is made to send 50 combat vehicle 90 to Ukraine.
Meet the Ukrainian soldiers who are trained in the systems in secret locations in Sweden and who prepare for the front.

 

• 1/2

ENLARGE 

 

In January 2023, the decision is made to send 50 combat vehicle 90 to Ukraine.Photo: Swedish Armed Forces

The Ukrainian soldiers come from all parts of society.Photo: Swedish Armed Forces

A CV90 drives past us in a cloud of gravel, dust and sand. It is followed by another one. And yet another one. There is a smell of dirt, diesel and spring in the air.

“I haven’t set foot in my home village since the war started”, says Oleksandr and looks at me with tired eyes.

Oleksandr looks a lot older than his 40 years. He picks up a pack of cigarettes from the side pocket of the Swedish army coat he is wearing. Underneath he is wearing the Swedish Armed Forces’ green motor overall. Oleksandr has just arrived to a spring-like Sweden from the front in Cherzon in southern Ukraine.

“I worked as a road worker and I had hardly held a weapon before”, he says and lights a cigarette.

He gives the combat vehicle column, some ten vehicles, an empty look. Inside the armoured vehicles are some of Oleksandr’s colleagues who, just like him, have to learn how to use the systems against Russian vehicles, machine guns and helicopters.

“In Cherzon, I was in the infantry. Infantry soldier.”

Oleksandr is not willing to share more than that regarding his experiences at the front. It is easier to talk about life than death.

“My wife and children are still there. I have two daughters, 6 and 8 years old. They are scared of everything that happens and what may happen, but they have enough food and are healthy. That is good.”

“Perekour”, says one of the Swedish interpreters. Cigarette break in Russian. It is time for Oleksandr’s colleagues to have a smoke. Oleksandr climbs one of the vehicles. The exercise continues. When the training is completed he will be a commander of one of the 50 vehicles that Sweden is sending to Ukraine.

Early dawn, 24 February 2022. Russian missiles hit military and civilian targets in a number of locations in Ukraine. At the same time, a ground offensive is launched from various flanks.

Yuryi is 48 years old and an engineer. In fluent English, he tells the story of how the war came to his hometown.

“The missiles hit everywhere, as from nowhere. I grabbed my wife and daughter and ran. I didn’t have time to think, we just got in the car and drove off, as the missiles were falling around us.”

Yuryi shakes his head while he is talking.

“No child should have to experience anything like this.”

Commentators think that the Kremlin expected the attack to be short, intense – and successful. However, old-fashioned strikes and the Ukrainian air defence stopped the Russian lines of vehicles and missiles from reaching their targets. In backyards in villages and cities, pensioners made Molotov cocktails, home-made fire-bombs. At the same time, there were reports of bombed out Ukrainian cities, the rape of civilians and summary executions performed by Russian soldiers. And not before long, the Kiev suburb of Bucha is put on the world map as a blood red stain.

Europe and the world respond to President Zelensky’s appeal for help in the fight against the Russian aggressor. The first Swedish delivery consists of 5 000 helmets, 5 000 body armour, 135 000 rations and 5 000 light anti-tank weapons. Ten days after the start of the war, the Swedish supplies reach Ukraine. Over time, the Swedish pledges for aid grow larger. Sweden promises to train soldiers, and as a result, Swedish instructors take part of the British-led training mission Interflex, where Ukrainian civilians receive basic military training in the UK.

During the autumn and winter of 2022, at the Swedish Government Offices and the Armed Forces Headquarters, top secret discussions are held regarding possible further deliveries. Classified documents reveal Leopard 2 tanks, artillery system Archer and combat vehicle 90. The decision is made in January 2023. Sweden is to send 50 vehicles to Ukraine. The government also promises to deliver the much coveted Archer system. Shortly after, the decision is made to donate tanks. Those who train the personnel, who are otherwise tasked with contributing to the growth of the Swedish Armed Forces by training Swedish conscripts and officers, suddenly receive new followers. On the white name tags, names like Oleksandr, Oleg and Yuryi can be read.

The CV90 instructors Martin and Olof are some of the armed forces employees that have had to make changes in their calendars. They are now standing on a hill watching the Ukrainian soldiers manoeuvre Swedish combat vehicles in the exercise field below. Martin gives instructions on the best ways to use the vehicles and what the drivers need to think about in the various steps of the process. Martin has been here since the beginning of the training mission. Like the other Swedish instructors, he refers to the Ukrainians as his students.

“They are quick learners and incredibly hard-working. They are particularly skilled in the mechanical details. They are not so used to advanced technology, but they learn quickly. Everyone wants to learn and do their best. It is obvious, also when they are tired and have worked for long periods of time.”

Olof, who has also been there since the start adds:

”Some of them have zero experience of combat vehicles or tanks, but many are familiar with the Russian BMP-1. It helps even if our tanks are sharper and much more advanced from a technical point of view.“

Sweden is donating 9040C combat vehicles, which is the model that was previously used by Swedish troops in Liberia and Afghanistan. Compared to the standard model, the 9040C has a higher level of protection. The tanks are equipped with 40-mm automatic cannons, smoke dischargers and machine guns. Open source information claims that the automatic cannon could be used again hovering helicopters at a 4-km distance – indeed a very potent arm in battle.

The interpreter Magnus and the instructor Johannes stand in a large tent. Seated in front of them are some twenty students, most of them around 50 years of age, all of them men. Magnus explains in Russian what Johannes is saying as Johannes demonstrates how to operate the automatic cannon. The training is held at a high pace. There are many steps in the process that must be practiced until the students manage them when they leave Sweden.

“The challenge for us as instructors is to teach the steps to be taken inside the tank. In order to learn, the student needs hands-on experience and a chance to test the equipment. With such little room inside the tanks and a large number of students who need to learn, it takes time. The more large-scale handling of the vehicles, such as driving in the field, is easier of course”, says Johannes.

I monitor the Ukrainian students’ training and return several times to firing ranges and exercise fields. The strong morale of the students is subtly expressed as focused tunnel vision, to allow them to learn as much as possible about the systems, no more than that. Most of them probably do not want to think about the fact that every day brings them closer to death and the killing. In a certain way, this is their break from the war. They can call home and sleep well without fear of air alerts and shooting. They get hot food, cold soda, potato chips, cigarettes and professional dental and medical care. The rest will be dealt with later, on location.

Yuryi says that he knows what he will face when he returns despite the fact that he has never fought in a war earlier.

“I have lived side by side with the war and I’ve seen what war does to you. Of course I am scared but I try to suppress my feelings.”

He continues:

“Of course I would like the war to end today, but that’s not going to happen. I think, or know, that I will have to kill. Any other thought is self-deception. The combat vehicles will be used in the middle of the battlefield. We will be at the centre of it.”

When I meet the students a few weeks later, spring has turned into summer. Driving exercises have been followed by live firing, tactics, mechanics and repair lessons. Fine caliber firing is heard in the firing range today. In the shade under the trees, in the midst of anemones in full bloom, a group of tank commanders eat their lunch, soup with vegetables, sausage and sour cream served with bread.

“This is the same food as in Ukraina. Borscht. The Russians claim that it’s a Russian dish, but that’s wrong. It’s a Ukrainian dish. They even try to steal our national dish”, says one of the commanders.

In the large tent, focus is on medical care, and a last check-up of the tanks. They will soon be on the road through Europe towards the front. Tank commanders, drivers and firers have now formed competent battle units. Thanks to the joint exercise they are now much more coordinated than when I met them the first time.

In the tent, I find Oleksandr and his group. Together with Swedish personnel, they are putting a masking net on a vehicle. This is one of the last steps before transportation. Yuryi is there as well. We greet each other. Yuryi claps his hand hard on the armoured vehicle they working on.

“We are ready”, he says.

This is the last time I see them. A few days later they are on their way to the front.

In Sweden, the lilacs are in full bloom. Soon, it will be midsummer.

* For security reasons, all names are fictitious.

 

I would think its both of those things combined with the notion that you send the most competent older and experienced people to get foreign training so as to impress the trainers.  You want more, you need to show you are dead serious.   Older guys by nature are going to be that way.  

[MissingInAction 25125]

I'm guessing Ukraine picked actual trainers themselves so they could return and train the younger guys.

[PTINS 3472]

15 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

I feel like there's room here for reasonable people to agree to disagree ...

... we are a tribal species by nature ...it takes  programming to overcome those tribal instincts... the evil actions we associate with WWII  have been performed throughout human history ... the end result of tribalism ... unless consciously combatted ... is repression and extermination. 

Whatever else Germany and Japan have done, their innate sense of superiority is intact and healthy as ever ... aspects of their economies the world might be better off emulating, rather than casting them as some kind of villain.

... buy their goods and services... lend the money earned back ... so they can buy more goods and services. [Same business model as a drug dealer, or Enron, or ...]

At its heart it's a predatory economic model... both countries are absolutely success stories... at this point they're both mature economies ...who refuse to become more consumption/import reliant. 

I questions how much things have changed in Germany and Japan, although neither is seeking to dominate their neighbors through military force. 

SL, thanks for the thought provoking response.

D-Day 2.0 started last night, and I don't want to derail the thread. I am only responding to make it easier to find this tangent later.  Perhaps Crown & Anchor is a better forum?

My two cent; the US was founded on the principles of Liberty and Freedom (said another way, we ran away from structure and rules until the Pacific Ocean stopped us). We are an infant that adopted a role as protector on December 7, 1941.  Everybody else has been fighting over the same shit ... since forever.

Two fundamental principles constantly at work, and at conflict;

Evolution ... adapt or die ... the strong survive... Slave Ukraini!,  and

Entropy... the inevitable, natural decay into disorder...Russian warship, go fuck yourself!!!

My new desktop says it all ... Good v. Evil, the protector v. the oppressor, Right v. Wrong.

 

[ConferenceRoom 6144]

I could have lived my entire life without seeing that picture. 

[Ghost of LL 15539]

3 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

I could have lived my entire life without seeing that picture. 

Could've, but didn't.

[Trey3216 15350]

15 hours ago, bolverk said:

My previous post covers the Eastern attack. Tokmak direction is the western one.

 

 

 

[MissingInAction 25125]

11 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

I could have lived my entire life without seeing that picture. 

That picture is the only truth there is